DB Cooper

[Robert99 50]

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I have always just assumed, Robt99, that you knew
all about such matters due your professional resume.
I have been sitting here almost waiting for you to
post about some simulation someone has done - in
your continuing work on the Coopercase?

I am not aware of any Cooper flight simulations having been done. And I doubt if sufficient information, publicly or otherwise, exists at this time to do a meaningful simulation. The flight path work that I have done was not a simulation.

[georger 244]

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I have always just assumed, Robt99, that you knew
all about such matters due your professional resume.
I have been sitting here almost waiting for you to
post about some simulation someone has done - in
your continuing work on the Coopercase?

I am not aware of any Cooper flight simulations having been done. And I doubt if sufficient information, publicly or otherwise, exists at this time to do a meaningful simulation. The flight path work that I have done was not a simulation.

I agree. I know.

[skyjack71 0]

Georger, I need for you to make arrangements for me to send you something important that I cannot put on the computer or make public. I do not believe I just viewed something I had never watched. I have not viewed many of the clips from the days in 1971 and was shocked at something I just realized.

Not only did Duane utilize me and there is something you have to see. It is in regards to Tina Mucklow and I will have to dig up a photo I will send to you. Hopefully you will see what I see and I am not happy about what I see. Not only was it my name Duane thought might come in handy someday which he learned on our first meeting, but something even more strange and because it is very personal I do not and will not make it public information.

You will have to sign a waiver in blood NEVER to disclose it - you won't be sorry you did this. I don't want or need a phone number, but a confidential mailing address so I can send this to you - it is a photo never ever to made public.

It is not a picture of Tina, but her look-alike. No ONE could be more surpised than I was...and I don't know what to make of it. I was NOT the only one who saw this...the expression from the other party was "Oh My God, she looks like xxxx xxxxxxxxxx!" It was something that had bothered me before and I thought I was the only one who saw it and thought it was me making something of nothing....just co-incidence. Now I really believe it is more than that.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[ClassClown 0]

...............been battling health problems myself.................kidney failure sucks...................good luck with your own health Jo....I know I've pissed a lot of folks off on here......but I wouldn't wish this kidney problem on my worst enemy.....................take care everyone

[BobKnoss 0]

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Yes Knoss. The tower had a persistent problem with
Tio2 and BP94 signal absorption vectoring as a
transverse from 339er and 994er, on the azimuith
isotope of kaldrum fornax. Galium arsenide makes
a poor transponder dector at those freqs!

Correct?

Couldn't say for sure. I'm busy getting lost. Jo, I'm not a religious person, but I find myself with many good words on your behalf. Sorry we couldn't agree, but so thankful to have a chance to try. I will always count you as a friend, even when I am lost. (:Q)^

[BobKnoss 0]

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First, no one knows if Cooper pulled the ripcord right off the stairs, or did a freefall first. I favor the former, even though I'm not a skydiver, because of the load and the extreme conditions of the jump.

Second, because there is dispute on the exact location where he jumped. Who do you trust for that? For a good start, you could trust the Paul Sortum/Official I Guess version and do scenarios.

Again with the counter-truths. Real facts: Ten seconds to pull, 15 miles West of the FBI determined spot. Official MISINFORMATION permeates this case. Read Jo's post. She has that part absolutely correct!! And she has you nailed, too. Crew member!

Duane's training was very specific about a ten second delay to give him as little time in the air as possible. Chances of chase planes seeing him were greatly reduced. It was important to get Duane to his specified drop area without having search parties surrounding him. The perceived dropzone had to be fabricated by reporting fake winds, crabbing into those winds, and covertly changing the actual position 15 miles West of where the search area was being planned. Kinda basic when you think about how you'd plan a perfect crime. Make 'em think he jumped into thick forest where he'd get tree'd and they'd have trouble searching a long ways away, when he really jumped close to target 15 miles away from the search area, in open pastureland, the money is buried in a milk can and he is long gone. Fact. Fact. Fact.

[matthewcline 0]

The simulation wold actually be just a matter of plugging in knows to the formula we use in the Pathfinder and Airdrop world known as D=CAV.

The formula can be used for each 1000' interval from exit height to Ground level.

What you need is the actual recorded winds at each 1000' interval. That wind speed is the "V", the "A" is the exit altitude, the "C" is 25 (constant for round canopies) then it will solve for "D" distance traveled horizontally.

There is a bit of SWAG, but it is done with an average of "V" through the lower altitudes .

I know this is a foreign language to most, but it works. it works real real, I put people and equipment within 5m's of target quite frequently through out my 21 years of Paratrooper and Pathfinder Operations.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[airtwardo 7]

the "A" is the exit altitude,

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But what about the main variable~ P for pull altitude Matt?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[matthewcline 0]

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the "A" is the exit altitude,

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But what about the main variable~ P for pull altitude Matt?

That is why you would do the drift at each 1000' increment. This would give you a lot of drift modules, but we would see a trend, and get a target area, that would be far closer than pure speculation/fabrication. "Cause we be usen Sci-ants!"

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Robert99 50]

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Robert 99 asks a good question:

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'Has any computer geek yet tried to put best guess scenarios into a simulation model for Cooper's landing?'

I have not, but I do have thoughts on it. Figuring this out isn't impossible, but it is difficult for two reasons.

First, no one knows if Cooper pulled the ripcord right off the stairs, or did a freefall first. I favor the former, even though I'm not a skydiver, because of the load and the extreme conditions of the jump.

Second, because there is dispute on the exact location where he jumped. Who do you trust for that? For a good start, you could trust the Paul Sortum/Official I Guess version and do scenarios.

Pulled ripcord on stairs. Pulled within fifty feet after the jump. Pulled later. This type of program requires numbers I don't keep in my pocket. It could be done, the main variable being the Point of Exit, in relation to the plane's position on a map. The other variables could be figured out using windspeed information and that skydiver rate-of-descent stuff.

This would lead you to different points on the ground. Not being a math whiz, that's all I can offer, but if I were to set up such a program, that's how I would do it.

It was actually Smokin99 who asked that question.

Also, Hominid has already pointed out to you that the "Paul Sortum" you refer to is actually Paul Soderlind.

When you interviewed Rataczak, what questions did you ask him? After all the detailed interviews you did on KC, you surely had a lot of questions to ask the co-pilot and were well prepared.

Did you ask Rataczak if he happened to notice the time of the jump? Clocks are required instruments in airline cockpits and I'll bet Rataczak, Scott, Anderson and Tina (and probably Cooper) were all wearing wrist watches as well.

Did you ask Rataczak if he happened to notice which side of Portland the airliner passed on? Since he was flying the airplane I imagine he was paying attention to the navigation instruments as well as the basic aircraft flight instruments.

You, or someone representing you, did interview Rataczak didn't you?

[airtwardo 7]

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the "A" is the exit altitude,

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But what about the main variable~ P for pull altitude Matt?

That is why you would do the drift at each 1000' increment. This would give you a lot of drift modules, but we would see a trend, and get a target area, that would be far closer than pure speculation/fabrication. "Cause we be usen Sci-ants!"

Matt

Gotcha...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[BobKnoss 0]

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Did you ask Rataczak if he happened to notice which side of Portland the airliner passed on? Since he was flying the airplane I imagine he was paying attention to the navigation instruments as well as the basic aircraft flight instruments.

You, or someone representing you, did interview Rataczak didn't you?

And WHAT makes you think you would get a correct answer, even if he would attempt to address the conundrum? That's the key question to be asked after you discover that the plane WAS West of Portland on a circular path around the populated area as ordered by the Portland Tower.

[Robert99 50]

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Did you ask Rataczak if he happened to notice which side of Portland the airliner passed on? Since he was flying the airplane I imagine he was paying attention to the navigation instruments as well as the basic aircraft flight instruments.

You, or someone representing you, did interview Rataczak didn't you?

And WHAT makes you think you would get a correct answer, even if he would attempt to address the conundrum? That's the key question to be asked after you discover that the plane WAS West of Portland on a circular path around the populated area as ordered by the Portland Tower.

The Portland Tower was not involved in the flight from Seattle to Reno.

The only air traffic control personnel the airliner talked to was the Seattle Tower, then the Seattle Center's enroute controllers until it was handed off to the Oakland Center's enroute controllers near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California, and then the Reno Tower.

Even if one of the Seattle Center's enroute controllers was located in the Portland Tower building, he was not the Portland Tower or representing it.

[BobKnoss 0]

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Even if one of the Seattle Center's enroute controllers was located in the Portland Tower building, he was not the Portland Tower or representing it.

You are the expert, sorry if I misunderstood. Who told flight 305 to stay clear of Portland with a bomb and to go around, if it wasn't Portland?? I just read the transcript, not paying too much attention to where it came from.

[Robert99 50]

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Even if one of the Seattle Center's enroute controllers was located in the Portland Tower building, he was not the Portland Tower or representing it.

You are the expert, sorry if I misunderstood. Who told flight 305 to stay clear of Portland with a bomb and to go around, if it wasn't Portland?? I just read the transcript, not paying too much attention to where it came from.

Please don't refer to me as an "expert". That word means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And some of the meanings are not nice.

I don't remember anything in the radio transcripts about the airliner being told to fly around Portland. However, while still on the ground in Seattle, the crew discussed getting above the overcast and then flying out over the Pacific until things got resolved. But they were over ruled on that.

But as I have pointed out before, there are a lot of things missing from the Seattle ATC transcripts.

[georger 244]

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Robert 99 asks a good question:

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'Has any computer geek yet tried to put best guess scenarios into a simulation model for Cooper's landing?'

I have not, but I do have thoughts on it. Figuring this out isn't impossible, but it is difficult for two reasons.

First, no one knows if Cooper pulled the ripcord right off the stairs, or did a freefall first. I favor the former, even though I'm not a skydiver, because of the load and the extreme conditions of the jump.

Second, because there is dispute on the exact location where he jumped. Who do you trust for that? For a good start, you could trust the Paul Sortum/Official I Guess version and do scenarios.

Pulled ripcord on stairs. Pulled within fifty feet after the jump. Pulled later. This type of program requires numbers I don't keep in my pocket. It could be done, the main variable being the Point of Exit, in relation to the plane's position on a map. The other variables could be figured out using windspeed information and that skydiver rate-of-descent stuff.

This would lead you to different points on the ground. Not being a math whiz, that's all I can offer, but if I were to set up such a program, that's how I would do it.

It was actually Smokin99 who asked that question.

Also, Hominid has already pointed out to you that the "Paul Sortum" you refer to is actually Paul Soderlind.

When you interviewed Rataczak, what questions did you ask him? After all the detailed interviews you did on KC, you surely had a lot of questions to ask the co-pilot and were well prepared.

Did you ask Rataczak if he happened to notice the time of the jump? Clocks are required instruments in airline cockpits and I'll bet Rataczak, Scott, Anderson and Tina (and probably Cooper) were all wearing wrist watches as well.

Did you ask Rataczak if he happened to notice which side of Portland the airliner passed on? Since he was flying the airplane I imagine he was paying attention to the navigation instruments as well as the basic aircraft flight instruments.

You, or someone representing you, did interview Rataczak didn't you?

Paul Sortum!

Please let the Blevins farce continue!

Its fundamental to the well-being of Blevin's psyche.

Now. Who is Tinker Bell ? Gayla?

[georger 244]

Ack.

On a side note, if anyone here wants me to post up a link to a free copy of the book in PDF (basically the Kindle version, comes with all the photos) just say so and I will do it again. Can't keep doing this every month. Not to be commercial about it, but every time I do this, we lose money. That's because I have to do it from our website, and a lot of folks download it, not just viewers of this thread. But it sounds as if some of you haven't seen it, and since I'm not trying to convince anyone here at DZ to buy anything, then you can have it free. Or, you can PM me with your email address and I can send it to you that way.

If you are going to question the details, you may as well have the source to quote. And for that, you should not have to pay for it.

We charge Medicade for you!

Sortum.

[Robert99 50]

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Exact time Cooper actually jumped from the plane:

Rataczak has stated the crew believed it was at the moment Flight Engineer Anderson noticed the airstairs door indicator light going off, and then coming back on for a moment...and then going off for good for the rest of the flight to Reno.

The Easy Version:

1) Indicator light comes on for the first time, showing stairs in the open position. This happened about fourteen miles south of Seattle on V-23. They would have dropped about 24-36 inches. Big disappointment for the hijacker, since now he has to figure out how to squat over and make them go down. I favor the idea he backed down the stairs, rather than going forward. A sudden drop of the stairs due to his weight could have caused him to tumble right to the bottom and then it's hasta lavista, baby.

2) Rataczak uses the interphone to call back to Cooper, asks him if he needs help. Cooper says no. Another call to the hijacker. 'Everything okay back there?' Answer: 'Everything is okay.' Shortly afterward, the crew feels 'occillations' up in the cockpit and Anderson sees major changes in the cabin pressure readings on his instruments. One last call to the hijacker by Rataczak: 'Sir?' There is no response.

3) At the same time, Flight Engineer Anderson sees the indicator light suddenly go off for just a moment...and then come back on for good. According to Rataczak, the crew also felt a sudden pressure in their ears at the same time.

4) This is the moment when the crew believes Cooper jumped. The theory being that when he jumped, the stairs rebounded ALMOST closed, causing the light to go off for a second or two, and also causing the crew to feel pressure in their ears. Then when the stairs settle back into the 24-36 inch drop position, the light comes back on and stays on all the way to Reno.

5) Not knowing when he pulled the ripcord is the real variable regarding a true landing zone. Same thing as before: Immediate pull, more drift. Freefall first, less drift.

6) One hint might be the location of the placard, but it's impossible to determine exactly WHEN it flew away into the night. However, due to the location where it was found, it seems unlikely it flew away the moment the door was opened. It probably worked its way loose later, or maybe Cooper pulled it off the wall and that's why it ended up flying out of the plane later. Or...it didn't fly away until Cooper had managed to get down the stairs and they were fully open. I favor this theory. The only reference to possible cabin turbulence is by Geoff Gray, who said the FBI found the food from the meals was scattered on the seats and walls of the plane, after it landed in Reno. (Ref: page 92)

A couple of points.

First, you previously gave an estimated jump time of 8:12 to 8:16 which is a five minute interval. Since the airliner had a ground speed of more than 3 nautical miles per minute between the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersection and the PDX (now BTG) VORTAC, it could have covered more than 15 nautical miles in that time period if it was on the V-23 centerline.

Assume that the airliner was at the Mayfield Intersection at exactly 8:00PM (and that is a very good estimate), and using the above information, what time would it arrive at the PDX VORTAC which was 41 nautical miles away. According to my calculations, it would take less than 14 minutes to cover that distance or 8:14PM at the absolute latest.

So using your times, Cooper would have jumped not more than about 6 nautical miles north of the PDX VORTAC and maybe up to 9 nautical miles south of that VORTAC or practically over the Portland airport.

Let me state for the record that I don't believe all of the above.

Second, in the last sentence of you post you state that food was scattered over the rear portion of the cabin of the aircraft after it landed in Reno. During the FBI's later flight tests, agents remarked about how calm the wind was in the rear portion of the cabin. So how do you explain the food getting scattered around as was reported? And this is a valid question.

[georger 244]

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Georger says in part:

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'Paul Sortum!

Please let the Blevins farce continue!

Its fundamental to the well-being of Blevin's psyche.

Now. Who is Tinker Bell ? Gayla?'

Simple mistake on Soderlind's name in transcription of the recording.

You would have gone on forever with this had
someone not called you on it. That's your nature,
not to know the difference or care, until you are
called.

Be nice now, Blevins! Dont blow your image!

[georger 244]

Second, in the last sentence of you post you state that food was scattered over the rear portion of the cabin of the aircraft after it landed in Reno. During the FBI's later flight tests, agents remarked about how calm the wind was in the rear portion of the cabin. So how do you explain the food getting scattered around as was reported? And this is a valid question.

[mrshutter45 21]

Here is a interesting video of a 727-100 people on the stairs at 6,000 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzcWZ7j1iTg

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[hangdiver 1]

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Second, in the last sentence of you post you state that food was scattered over the rear portion of the cabin of the aircraft after it landed in Reno. During the FBI's later flight tests, agents remarked about how calm the wind was in the rear portion of the cabin. So how do you explain the food getting scattered around as was reported? And this is a valid question.

I have some questions about the Reno FBI's initial entry into flight 305's cabin...

Did they have dogs?

I believe I remember the crew getting food in Seattle...right or wrong?

If they did order food that means the galley was empty and it just may have been the garbage strewn about.

I don't remember where...but I believe I read that the flight crew tried maneuvers to get the hijacker off the steps...that could be a total fabrication as I can't remember where that rumor/factoid came from.

Sounds like a skydiver food fight......

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[mrshutter45 21]

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Second, in the last sentence of you post you state that food was scattered over the rear portion of the cabin of the aircraft after it landed in Reno. During the FBI's later flight tests, agents remarked about how calm the wind was in the rear portion of the cabin. So how do you explain the food getting scattered around as was reported? And this is a valid question.

I have some questions about the Reno FBI's initial entry into flight 305's cabin...

Did they have dogs?

I believe I remember the crew getting food in Seattle...right or wrong?

If they did order food that means the galley was empty and it just may have been the garbage strewn about.

I don't remember where...but I believe I read that the flight crew tried maneuvers to get the hijacker off the steps...that could be a total fabrication as I can't remember where that rumor/factoid came from.

Sounds like a skydiver food fight......

hangdiver

I would have to say yes on the dogs

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

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Second, in the last sentence of you post you state that food was scattered over the rear portion of the cabin of the aircraft after it landed in Reno. During the FBI's later flight tests, agents remarked about how calm the wind was in the rear portion of the cabin. So how do you explain the food getting scattered around as was reported? And this is a valid question.

I have some questions about the Reno FBI's initial entry into flight 305's cabin...

Did they have dogs?

I believe I remember the crew getting food in Seattle...right or wrong?

If they did order food that means the galley was empty and it just may have been the garbage strewn about.

I don't remember where...but I believe I read that the flight crew tried maneuvers to get the hijacker off the steps...that could be a total fabrication as I can't remember where that rumor/factoid came from.

Sounds like a skydiver food fight......

hangdiver

As I understand it, Flight 305 had a couple of stops somewhere between Minneapolis and Portland. Presumably, a full lunch service would have been included on one of those legs.

Did NWA unload the gallley trash and cutlery in Portland or did they haul it on to Seattle and unload it there plus stock up on meals for the next leg that the aircraft would fly? My guess is Seattle, an NWA hub, is where the NWA meal service would have been loaded for the next leg.

So there may have been nothing (except for the usual sodas and peanut type snacks for kids) on board the airliner at the time it was hijacked. And, of course, the liquor service. The meal carts would have been secured before the landing in Portland and left there since no particular food service was offered on the leg to Seattle.

So how did some food get scattered over the rear portion of the cabin? It would probably come from the serving carts trash. And it would take a lot of airflow, which the FBI didn't find during their trials, or a lot of vigorous aircraft maneuvering to get the food remants out of the carts.

Just remember that the flight crew had been informed by the Chief FAA Psychiatrist in Washington that Cooper would probably blow up the aircraft when he jumped. That information is in the Seattle ground radio transcripts.

When Cooper headed down those stairs, he was no longer in control of the situation. If you were a flight crew member, would you trust Cooper not to blow you out of the sky? Or would you take the opportunity to control your own fate as much as possible?

[skyjack71 0]

Robert I am just using your post to counter the things Knoss is claiming.

Knoss stated:

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Again with the counter-truths. Real facts: Ten seconds to pull, 15 miles West of the FBI determined spot. Official MISINFORMATION permeates this case. Read Jo's post. She has that part absolutely correct!! And she has you nailed, too. Crew member!

I would have NO knowledge of where Cooper landed or when he jump. I do know a crew member stated in an interview immediately after landing in Reno they believed Cooper jumped in the FLAT LANDS of WA or OR. All
I know what Duane told me and showed me - things that have often been misinterperted by Knoss and others.

My conversation with a crew member also - indicated this over 30 yrs after the event. At least one of the crew stuck by what was originally stated to the media and the FBI. I think a statement made by a crew member after landing in Reno is important.


Knoss stated:

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the money is buried in a milk can and he is long gone. Fact. Fact. Fact.

I will REPEAT this again for the umpteenth time. Knoss came up with the Milk Can Story only because I told him about a farm Duane took me to and the building in the front seemed to me to have been a milking station at one time.

The damn Farm was near Lake LaCames NOT WEST of the Interstate.

Months later Knoss was tooting his milk can story. This was one of the times I called him yrs ago to tell him to go jump in a lake (how about the ocean without a chute or floatation device). At that time I read him the RIOT act - I was mad as hell because of the stories he was telling and the fabrications he made.

The area I tried to describe to Knoss and others is NOT WEST of the flight path. Even Jerry tooted a similar story. Most of what Duane showed me on the trip to Seattle was EAST of the Interstate running from Seattle to Vancouver.

Duane did take me West of the Interstate to an area in OR across a bridge and then back to the interstate in Wa and then to Vancouver and along the Columbia River on the trip back from Seattle. All of you already know the places he took me along the river at that time including an industrial area near Tena's bar and then along the River West and turning back to the East before we made our final stop in Vancouver at the Red Lion.

This dairy FARM was in the CAMAS area NOT West of the Interstate, but near Lake LaCames. Knoss's story about a milk can is pure fabrication and NOT part of my story. Knoss persists in making these statements about West of the flight path and the milk can story - it is pure BULL! He distorts everything anyone tells him.

Knoss has probably never been to WA and toured the areas Duane took me on! No one knows the exact route, but me, myself and I. Even I could not put ALL of it together on my 15 day trip in 2010 - the only part I could NOT find was the place in the woods the tower had been in.

The things Duane showed me - does substanciate the crew members notation about the flat lands in 1971 immediately after the plane was on the ground. I believe this was the first National TV report after the plane landed.

Makes one wonder WHY the FBI started looking so far North. If the FBI had listened to this crew member - maybe they would have caught Cooper.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber