georger 244
Stationed at McChord Air Force Base in Washington state, Wilson recalled receiving a phone call from authorities requesting four parachutes. He said he called his superior officer, who denied the request.
"We got a call from the police, I guess," Wilson said. "They wanted two main parachutes and two reserves. I called my commander and he said 'hell, no. We're not getting involved in this.'"
So they deny a request to assist the FEDERAL authorities in a situation in which civilian lives were at stake...
...THAT commander would STILL be in Leavenworth if I was king!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
"We got a call from the police, I guess," Wilson said. "They wanted two main parachutes and two reserves. I called my commander and he said 'hell, no. We're not getting involved in this.'"
So they deny a request to assist the FEDERAL authorities in a situation in which civilian lives were at stake...
...THAT commander would STILL be in Leavenworth if I was king!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
georger 244
QuoteRobert99 says in part:
Quote'Blevins, Since you are now apparently the parachute expert on this thread, tell me how the shroud lines were connected to the risers (from the harness) in the back parachute that Cooper used.
Were seperable links used? This is not a trick question, but a correct answer is necessary for you to maintain your "expert" rating...'
I never said I was a parachute expert. But I CAN read a map, and the FBI's dual-edged, lame-o explanation on the Amboy parachute does not wash.
By 'dual-edged' I mean this:
First, they have Cossey saying that it can't be Cooper's because it's silk and not nylon. Second, because they use Lt. Floyd Walling as the explanation and that doesn't wash either. Third, they admitted it was a military chute. We will forget the part where they say it 'could' be from an NB-6, although if it was military there is a good chance it did.
This has nothing to do with being a chute expert. It has to do with logic and facts. On the case of Walling, there are known facts. I want you to study that map image once again closely and after seeing it, try to tell me that the Seattle FBI got it right on the Amboy chute.
I say they didn't. And if so, what is the real explanation for it? THEY were the ones that put forward that explanation, not I. All I'm doing is questioning it, and judging from the evidence, I'd say it's a legit bit of questioning.
We understand the issues at stake and the logic
involved -= you dont have to "school" us, Oh Grayt
One-Thingie.
As usually happens (in your case) you are missing
data. I suggest we wait until the data is available,
before getting stalled in the winter mountains for
3000 days ..... with a road(it turns out) closeby.
Ponder that, abominable thingie-thingie.
This case existed before you. It will definately exist
after you. That is 100% guaronteed, thing-thingie.
BobKnoss 0
"Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr? You have GOT to be kidding! Stupid screw-up wanna-be. Couldn’t even walk into town. Had to buy a ride for $15!"
KEEP IT IN CONTEXT, PLEASE! This was in reply to the statement that McCoy was one of the 10 most famous criminals of all time. Had to be written by McCoy himself, because McCoy as a top 10 is a joke! I had to give him some shit. Personal jab at a friend. Don't take it at face value.
KEEP IT IN CONTEXT, PLEASE! This was in reply to the statement that McCoy was one of the 10 most famous criminals of all time. Had to be written by McCoy himself, because McCoy as a top 10 is a joke! I had to give him some shit. Personal jab at a friend. Don't take it at face value.
BobKnoss 0
"This case existed before you. It will definately exist
after you. That is 100% guaronteed, thing-thingie."
And there will be NO contributions whatsoever from said thingie-thingie. Only refuse and clutter and a long list of where not to go. A failed writer and a failed investigator in a fishbowl of unspeakable, foul, coagulants. AND, he gives books to our children at Christmas time. Hope he has supervision.
after you. That is 100% guaronteed, thing-thingie."
And there will be NO contributions whatsoever from said thingie-thingie. Only refuse and clutter and a long list of where not to go. A failed writer and a failed investigator in a fishbowl of unspeakable, foul, coagulants. AND, he gives books to our children at Christmas time. Hope he has supervision.
mrshutter45 21
Is that right, when I first posted that quote you said, "They were not idiots and they were not "Great Criminals". McCoy was Government and Rataczak led the Pilot's Union fight for pilot safety. I am entirely consistent with the point of each statement,"Quote"Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr? You have GOT to be kidding! Stupid screw-up wanna-be. Couldn’t even walk into town. Had to buy a ride for $15!"
KEEP IT IN CONTEXT, PLEASE! This was in reply to the statement that McCoy was one of the 10 most famous criminals of all time. Had to be written by McCoy himself, because McCoy as a top 10 is a joke! I had to give him some shit. Personal jab at a friend. Don't take it at face value.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
BobKnoss 0
QuoteIs that right, when I first posted that quote you said, "They were not idiots and they were not "Great Criminals". McCoy was Government and Rataczak led the Pilot's Union fight for pilot safety. I am entirely consistent with the point of each statement,"Quote"Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr? You have GOT to be kidding! Stupid screw-up wanna-be. Couldn’t even walk into town. Had to buy a ride for $15!"
KEEP IT IN CONTEXT, PLEASE! This was in reply to the statement that McCoy was one of the 10 most famous criminals of all time. Had to be written by McCoy himself, because McCoy as a top 10 is a joke! I had to give him some shit. Personal jab at a friend. Don't take it at face value.
That is correct. I stand by my statements, thank you. McCoy WANTED to be infamous, remember? He touted his role as a criminal plant and helped write the stories and make the training films. You begin to get the picture.
mrshutter45 21
what year was the flood that caused the Moo Moo container to become a bobber?QuoteQuoteIs that right, when I first posted that quote you said, "They were not idiots and they were not "Great Criminals". McCoy was Government and Rataczak led the Pilot's Union fight for pilot safety. I am entirely consistent with the point of each statement,"Quote"Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr? You have GOT to be kidding! Stupid screw-up wanna-be. Couldn’t even walk into town. Had to buy a ride for $15!"
KEEP IT IN CONTEXT, PLEASE! This was in reply to the statement that McCoy was one of the 10 most famous criminals of all time. Had to be written by McCoy himself, because McCoy as a top 10 is a joke! I had to give him some shit. Personal jab at a friend. Don't take it at face value.
That is correct. I stand by my statements, thank you. McCoy WANTED to be infamous, remember? He touted his role as a criminal plant and helped write the stories and make the training films. You begin to get the picture.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
BobKnoss 0
I do not know. One story to me was that the area was intentionally flooded for some reason and it changed the course of the river. I don't know if that was BS or the truth. Can't believe what Jo says. Fact of the matter is that the money that was buried was found at Tena's Bar after it was buried upstream in a 'moo-moo can'. The rest is to dig out of the area's history records. Of course, you have to know where that dairy farm was, and again, Jo would be the only current source for that, having been there. Supposedly. If she could remember anything accurately.
mrshutter45 21
most of them were made out of steel and would rust pretty quick that close to the river underground, I am checking now on how water tight they were, they were only meant to store Moo Moo juice and not designed to be submergedQuoteI do not know. One story to me was that the area was intentionally flooded for some reason and it changed the course of the river. I don't know it that was BS or the truth. Can't believe what Jo says. Fact of the matter is that the money that was buried was found at Tena's Bar after it was buried upstream in a 'moo-moo can'. The rest is to dig out of the area's history records. Of course, you have to know where that dairy farm was, and again, Jo would be the only current source for that, having been there. Supposedly. If she could remember anything accurately.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
BobKnoss 0
Some were stainless, but most were galvanized I think. There were 5 and 7 gallon cans and they all had narrow necks with taper fit caps. I do not know what type Duane used. Only that it was an old can that he found on the farm. My theory would be that the shape of the can would be an excellent bobber until it would be grounded tipped on it's side and moved by wave action or left by receding waters. Only then would it be susceptible to lid removal and subsequent loss of contents. This would be consistent with the facts at hand. Other theories may apply.
BobKnoss 0
"most of them were made out of steel and would rust pretty quick that close to the river underground, I am checking now on how water tight they were, they were only meant to store Moo Moo juice and not designed to be submerged."
Cazactly. Depends on how he buried it, too. Assuming he buried it upright, it would be a natural floater, given no holes, as the cover creates a water shed, hence, my theory that the can would have a tendency to pop up like a casket in New Orleans, and float until it came to shallow water and got grounded or somehow made prone, where the cap could possibly be dislodged and removed. Caps did not generally lock on to prevent spillage as I recall.
This would lend logic to distribution of monies to be caused by multiple floodings as tipping the can alone would not explain washing out the contents or distributing the contents downstream. Other theories may apply.
Cazactly. Depends on how he buried it, too. Assuming he buried it upright, it would be a natural floater, given no holes, as the cover creates a water shed, hence, my theory that the can would have a tendency to pop up like a casket in New Orleans, and float until it came to shallow water and got grounded or somehow made prone, where the cap could possibly be dislodged and removed. Caps did not generally lock on to prevent spillage as I recall.
This would lend logic to distribution of monies to be caused by multiple floodings as tipping the can alone would not explain washing out the contents or distributing the contents downstream. Other theories may apply.
mrshutter45 21
I have several problems with this, first, if it was underground for several years the metal will rust (including stainless) this would allow water to enter and damage anything inside, even if the money got out, it would be water logged.QuoteSome were stainless, but most were galvanized I think. There were 5 and 7 gallon cans and they all had narrow necks with taper fit caps. I do not know what type Duane used. Only that it was an old can that he found on the farm. My theory would be that the shape of the can would be an excellent bobber until it would be grounded tipped on it's side and moved by wave action or left by receding waters. Only then would it be susceptible to lid removal and subsequent loss of contents. This would be consistent with the facts at hand. Other theories may apply.
the ground surrounding a river area would be extremely moist, a typical Moo Moo can is about 24 inches high and would require about a 30 inch or better hole to cover it for a long period.
someone would have found the floating can to look in it, for the can to float around for years waiting to deteriorate is just not plausible, Melvin Wilson tossed a drum into the river and 30 days later, it was found.
growing up on and around farms in Ohio, I found out fast as a kid not to trespass onto a farm, the animals alert them when someone is on the property, I had many farmers greet us with a shotgun
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
BobKnoss 0
"I am fighting a time clock, so will you please get LOST and stay LOST. Why don't you take a trip to WA. State and learn WHY the things you rant on about are NOT justified."
I've been there. Surprise. I was given my information long before you entered the picture. I hope I don't rant, just clarify what you claim are facts based on jumbled up notes of conversations with participants, kooks and deceivers. You can't just tell half the story and make sense. You can't protect one person and claim a conspiracy of Government cover-up. “Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.” You have even confused yourself. I speak the truth with clarity.
I've been there. Surprise. I was given my information long before you entered the picture. I hope I don't rant, just clarify what you claim are facts based on jumbled up notes of conversations with participants, kooks and deceivers. You can't just tell half the story and make sense. You can't protect one person and claim a conspiracy of Government cover-up. “Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.” You have even confused yourself. I speak the truth with clarity.
BobKnoss 0
"I have several problems with this..."
I agree. I understand the farm was abandoned. I doubt Duane would have chosen a can that was rusted out. I believe the money was mildew at least, and probably wet as indicated by the aging of the bills recovered. What moisture content is required to create a bundle to totally submerge? At what point will wet bills float? Is it possible the can stayed buried and the stacks of bills floated? Enough boyancy in the bills might lift the cover along with the floatation potential of the bell effect of the cover? How deep was it buried? Lots of unanswerable questions, but to arrive at a logical sequence of events, one must choose one scenerio or another to afix betwix the obvious. List all the options and place "or' between them. Makes for a more accurate account. Just not as easy reading. If we don't know, we don't know and it is probably not all that important to the bottom line. Money go "POOF." Duane go "POOF." Evidence go "POOF." Everything go "POOF." Except the story. It won't go "POOF." Me either.
I agree. I understand the farm was abandoned. I doubt Duane would have chosen a can that was rusted out. I believe the money was mildew at least, and probably wet as indicated by the aging of the bills recovered. What moisture content is required to create a bundle to totally submerge? At what point will wet bills float? Is it possible the can stayed buried and the stacks of bills floated? Enough boyancy in the bills might lift the cover along with the floatation potential of the bell effect of the cover? How deep was it buried? Lots of unanswerable questions, but to arrive at a logical sequence of events, one must choose one scenerio or another to afix betwix the obvious. List all the options and place "or' between them. Makes for a more accurate account. Just not as easy reading. If we don't know, we don't know and it is probably not all that important to the bottom line. Money go "POOF." Duane go "POOF." Evidence go "POOF." Everything go "POOF." Except the story. It won't go "POOF." Me either.
Robert99 50
QuoteQuoteRobert99 says in part:
Quote'Blevins, Since you are now apparently the parachute expert on this thread, tell me how the shroud lines were connected to the risers (from the harness) in the back parachute that Cooper used.
Were seperable links used? This is not a trick question, but a correct answer is necessary for you to maintain your "expert" rating...'
I never said I was a parachute expert. But I CAN read a map, and the FBI's dual-edged, lame-o explanation on the Amboy parachute does not wash.
By 'dual-edged' I mean this:
First, they have Cossey saying that it can't be Cooper's because it's silk and not nylon. Second, because they use Lt. Floyd Walling as the explanation and that doesn't wash either. Third, they admitted it was a military chute. We will forget the part where they say it 'could' be from an NB-6, although if it was military there is a good chance it did.
This has nothing to do with being a chute expert. It has to do with logic and facts. On the case of Walling, there are known facts. I want you to study that map image once again closely and after seeing it, try to tell me that the Seattle FBI got it right on the Amboy chute.
I say they didn't. And if so, what is the real explanation for it? THEY were the ones that put forward that explanation, not I. All I'm doing is questioning it, and judging from the evidence, I'd say it's a legit bit of questioning.
We understand the issues at stake and the logic
involved -= you dont have to "school" us, Oh Grayt
One-Thingie.
As usually happens (in your case) you are missing
data. I suggest we wait until the data is available,
before getting stalled in the winter mountains for
3000 days ..... with a road(it turns out) closeby.
Ponder that, abominable thingie-thingie.
This case existed before you. It will definately exist
after you. That is 100% guaronteed, thing-thingie.
Blevins, I have ask you a very simple question. If you found a parachute in the brush, would the way the shroud lines were attached to the risers means anything to you? Yes or no!
Also, do you know how many shroud lines Cooper's back pack canopy had in the first place? HINT: It was quite probably a multiple of four.
Small details, such as the above, might help you identify a canopy if you came across one somewhere.
Robert99 50
QuoteRobert99 asks:
Quote'Blevins, I have ask you a very simple question. If you found a parachute in the brush, would the way the shroud lines were attached to the risers means anything to you? Yes or no!
Also, do you know how many shroud lines Cooper's back pack canopy had in the first place? HINT: It was quite probably a multiple of four.
Small details, such as the above, might help you identify a canopy if you came across one somewhere...'
How the hell should I know the answers to these questions? I've never seen anything of the Amboy chute except the pics that were released, some of the chute by iteself, others with Agent Robbie Burroughs standing next to it.
You should be contacting the Seattle FBI office with your questions, since THEY are the ones currently in possession of the parachute. Special Agent Fred Gutt is a good start.
My position on the Amboy chute is well-known, and it has nothing to do with Kenny Christiansen. The FBI gave a certain explanation about it. I say their explanation just plain does not make sense. So...what IS the truth on it, and why did they bury the issue so quickly, based on a story full of more holes than a five-pound block of Swiss cheese?
You could ask the Seattle office for a look at the chute...someone should...a group of local chute experts, perhaps. Point of order: Chute not found in the brush. Chute was buried, missing the container and harness.
Side Note: If you are looking at the map I attached with the notes, the famous placard from the plane was found just north of the town of Ariel. (Seattle Times article shot attached)
My, my, my, aren't we crabby today.
Other than the FBI's statement, do you see anything about the canopy that might help straighten the matter out?
On where the placard was found, I would suggest that you take another look at Tom Kaye's web page. It seems that the placard was found almost 20 statute miles north-northwest of Ariel.
Robert99 50
QuoteYeah...sometimes I get a little short with folks when I shouldn't. I get a lot of emails and about 25% of them are people saying not-nice things. The rest are okay, or just business.
I will accept your statement about the location of the placard. Only heard it was north of Ariel somewhere. I have no way of knowing for sure, but it sounds like it flew out of the plane soon after the door was opened. The location of the Amboy chute makes sense if two things are true: IF Cooper jumped in that area, and if the winds blew him a bit east after he did.
Generally speaking, the winds in that area most often blow in from the west, followed by southwest, south, north, and rarely...from the east. That's just speaking from my experience living here since the late 60's. None of that matters until the true story of what that chute is about is solved. The FBI's explanation? Extremely doubtful, damn near impossible. None of what they claim about it makes any sense. Here's a few quick points:
1) Initially, they admitted it was a 'military-type' chute that COULD be from an NB-6 container.
2) They said (according to Earl Cossey) that it was made of silk, and not nylon, and therefore could not be Cooper's. This statement is extremely suspect.
3) It was found south of the placard and within a short distance of the flight path.
4) There was no container or harness found with the parachute.
5) The FBI postulated that Lt. Floyd Walling belonged to the parachute, but matching that with the facts about his rescue, this makes no sense.
6) Why would someone go to all the trouble to bury a parachute in the first place? What was their motivation for doing so?
7) The FBI has admitted the color of the parachute could be the same as the one given to Cooper.
8) The investigation into the chute was dismissed rather quickly, and reletively few people were involved in its identification. No known Seattle-area chute experts were allowed to examine it. If they were, none of them have come forward with any results. (Earl Cossey excepted)
9) It may or may not matter, but if the Amboy chute were proven to be most likely Cooper's, this would negate the FBI's stance (since 1980) that Cooper died in the jump.
10) The Seattle FBI has not responded to questions about their conclusions regarding the chute. They say they are no longer investigating it.
Statement from Tom Kaye's website:Quote'The Amboy parachute was not available during the inspection and it was not clear if that evidence was archived in the Seattle FBI office. We concur with others who originally forwarded the idea, that the Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute. The research team has a standing offer with the FBI to return to Amboy and excavate the location where it was discovered. To this date the only available information on the sewn-closed reserve chute that Cooper left the plane with, was that it was white in color. The Amboy Chute remains an item of significant interest...'
That's right, Tom.
Occam would not say that the Amboy chute was Cooper's. He MIGHT say it deserves a closer look.
The placard was found about 30 nautical miles up V-23 from the present day BTG VORTAC and about one nautical mile northeast of the V-23 centerline. This was also about 12 nautical miles toward the BTG VORTAC from the present day Malay Intersection.
The stairs were deployed to one degree or another about half way between the Malay Intersection and the Seattle VORTAC. That would be at least 20 minutes before the placard seperated from the aircraft.
In the case of the Amboy parachute, emergency parachutes of that era (and also today) were typically a white color although some military parachutes also had panels of bright red or other colors to help in locating the parachutist after he landed.
Cargo parachutes quite frequently were of a camo color to help conceal the location of the drop. The Amboy parachute pictures, at least to me, seem to indicate a camo colored parachute rather than an emergency parachute that changed colors due to being buried. The color seems to be consistent throughout the fabric and shroud lines and I don't think that would be caused by ground burial.
But if anyone ever has an opportunity to check the Amboy parachute, please note how the shroud lines are connected to the risers and the number of shroud lines per riser.
There is something unique, which I won't mention at this point, about the parachute that Cooper supposedly took and this factor alone could rule out the Amboy parachute regardless of where it came from.
EDIT: To comment on Blevins statements about the dam lights, Blevins should remember that the airline crew could not see the lights of Vancouver and Portland as they passed through the area. The sum of those city lights is vastly brighter than the lights from the dam.
BobKnoss 0
Pump station lights are much, much brighter. And on the true flight path. And a point of triangulation for the drop.
The Cooper chute was attached with a series of gramma knots in parachute chord.. Easily identifiable. I DO know who owned that chute, but I never saw that particular one. It was not used in practice. And THAT"S the twooth!
The Cooper chute was attached with a series of gramma knots in parachute chord.. Easily identifiable. I DO know who owned that chute, but I never saw that particular one. It was not used in practice. And THAT"S the twooth!
Robert99 50
QuotePump station lights are much, much brighter. And on the true flight path. And a point of triangulation for the drop.
BK, You need three points for a triangulation. And a further complication is that you need to be able to see the lights in the first place. The flight crew couldn't.
BobKnoss 0
Two other points were radio fixes on two radios in the cockpit. The lights from the pump station were the start point for the run. The run had been made several times before from higher altitude as practice to verify accuracy. Cooper jumped early and had to walk 15 miles or so along a clearcut right-of-way, fireway, whatever you call it. I wasn't there, just took a debriefing report from McCoy.
Cooper found both a shovel and a milk can at his destination and after pocketing a wad of cash, buried the balance in a milk can under a tree by the river, never to be located again. POOF.
Cooper found both a shovel and a milk can at his destination and after pocketing a wad of cash, buried the balance in a milk can under a tree by the river, never to be located again. POOF.
mrshutter45 21
what is the purpose of hiding the money? If they limited the amount of people by not having anyone on the ground to assist (mind boggling) what exactly was your role? if nobody was involved on the ground, seems to me that anyone else would be a third wheel?QuoteTwo other points were radio fixes on two radios in the cockpit. The lights from the pump station were the start point for the run. The run had been made several times before from higher altitude as practice to verify accuracy. Cooper jumped early and had to walk 15 miles or so along a clearcut right-of-way, fireway, whatever you call it. I wasn't there, just took a debriefing report from McCoy.
Cooper found both a shovel and a milk can at his destination and after pocketing a wad of cash, buried the balance in a milk can under a tree by the river, never to be located again. POOF.
I still stand by my past statements as well, all the government would have to do is set new security measures, why go through all of this nonsense, especially 40+ years of loose ends.
you have six years of College and I'm sure since you are smart, you took all the measures in order to not get drafted, because you gave a phony doctors letter makes the above sentence confusing?
you were smart enough to have a letter written from a doctor, but not smart enough to use your College degree in order to dodge it legally?
Those who finished a bachelors degree before reaching age 25
could apply for a graduate deferment in the early and middle years of the war (up to 1968) and could
apply for occupational or dependent deferments throughout the period from 1965 to 1970
McCoy goes from a full dress uniform Military guy, turns around and jumps out of a plane, then goes on a Bank spree, then becomes a Federal Marshal? WTF?
This is better than the debate about Obama's Birth Certificate
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
Amazon 7
You don't REALLLLY think it actually makes any sense do you?????
mrshutter45 21
NopeQuoteYou don't REALLLLY think it actually makes any sense do you?????
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
http://www.thepilot.com/news/2011/sep/07/local-man-tried-to-help-solve-famous-skyjacking/
then that settles that - thanks.
Weather note: Wilson says: "At that moment, the
aircraft was flying through a heavy rainstorm over
the Lewis River in southwestern Washington."