DB Cooper

[mrshutter45 21]

Whether two cords or three cords were cut remains a debate. Tina Mucklow asked the hijacker during the flight to cut some of the chute cord for her to possibly use as a safety line when the aft stairs were lowered, so as to not be sucked out of the plane [2]. Mucklow stated that Cooper informed her that she didn't need a cord. Was an additional cord cut from the chute at the time for Mucklow, but never used?

I have a WILD theory that I have been trying out, is it possible that he used the extra cord to pull the door up tricking the crew into thinking he left the plane? any other bumps, oscillations would have gone unnoticed allowing him to exit possibly a few miles from Reno? I'm sure they hit more turbulence along the path to Reno and the stairs should of acted similar to you trunk being open on your car while moving and hitting bumps, it would go up and down causing many "oscillations" through out the flight? after all, we are only going by the FBI's most probable jump area, meaning, not set in stone! I realize the terrain problems of finding any evidence plus the eruption covering evidence, but someone said we need to start thinking outside the box, this is about as far outside the box you can go

It's a very long shot (this theory) but what is not wild and crazy about this crime? this theory would show knowledge of the plane, flight behavior in general, knowledge that Pilots would have or could have given to this individual and, give a much better location for exit?

remember the times were different back then, and Cooper was probably certain that the crew would not leave the cockpit, allowing him all the time in the world back there. most bank robbers tell them to wait 5 minutes before doing anything after they leave, most if not all abide to these commands!

To stretch it even further, this could be a possible reason the money is on Tena Bar that seems to confuse everyone, he simply went back and put the money there in order to keep the area contained for the "probable jump area" this is yet another clue that nobody can agree on how the money got there. we have people believing he went into the river, we have people thinking he jumped in the area where the money was found, it's a win win for Cooper in order to cover his escape.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

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Whether two cords or three cords were cut remains a debate. Tina Mucklow asked the hijacker during the flight to cut some of the chute cord for her to possibly use as a safety line when the aft stairs were lowered, so as to not be sucked out of the plane [2]. Mucklow stated that Cooper informed her that she didn't need a cord. Was an additional cord cut from the chute at the time for Mucklow, but never used?

I have a WILD theory that I have been trying out, is it possible that he used the extra cord to pull the door up tricking the crew into thinking he left the plane? any other bumps, oscillations would have gone unnoticed allowing him to exit possibly a few miles from Reno? I'm sure they hit more turbulence along the path to Reno and the stairs should of acted similar to you trunk being open on your car while moving and hitting bumps, it would go up and down causing many "oscillations" through out the flight? after all, we are only going by the FBI's most probable jump area, meaning, not set in stone! I realize the terrain problems of finding any evidence plus the eruption covering evidence, but someone said we need to start thinking outside the box, this is about as far outside the box you can go

It's a very long shot (this theory) but what is not wild and crazy about this crime? this theory would show knowledge of the plane, flight behavior in general, knowledge that Pilots would have or could have given to this individual and, give a much better location for exit?

remember the times were different back then, and Cooper was probably certain that the crew would not leave the cockpit, allowing him all the time in the world back there. most bank robbers tell them to wait 5 minutes before doing anything after they leave, most if not all abide to these commands!

To stretch it even further, this could be a possible reason the money is on Tena Bar that seems to confuse everyone, he simply went back and put the money there in order to keep the area contained for the "probable jump area" this is yet another clue that nobody can agree on how the money got there. we have people believing he went into the river, we have people thinking he jumped in the area where the money was found, it's a win win for Cooper in order to cover his escape.

Cooper did not mention Reno as a place he wanted to go. He only agreed to the crew's suggestion of a fuel stop in Reno. And Cooper had no knowledge of any kind on the flight path the airliner used between V-23 and across the mountains to Reno.

[georger 244]

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Whether two cords or three cords were cut remains a debate. Tina Mucklow asked the hijacker during the flight to cut some of the chute cord for her to possibly use as a safety line when the aft stairs were lowered, so as to not be sucked out of the plane [2]. Mucklow stated that Cooper informed her that she didn't need a cord. Was an additional cord cut from the chute at the time for Mucklow, but never used?

I have a WILD theory that I have been trying out, is it possible that he used the extra cord to pull the door up tricking the crew into thinking he left the plane? any other bumps, oscillations would have gone unnoticed allowing him to exit possibly a few miles from Reno? I'm sure they hit more turbulence along the path to Reno and the stairs should of acted similar to you trunk being open on your car while moving and hitting bumps, it would go up and down causing many "oscillations" through out the flight? after all, we are only going by the FBI's most probable jump area, meaning, not set in stone! I realize the terrain problems of finding any evidence plus the eruption covering evidence, but someone said we need to start thinking outside the box, this is about as far outside the box you can go

It's a very long shot (this theory) but what is not wild and crazy about this crime? this theory would show knowledge of the plane, flight behavior in general, knowledge that Pilots would have or could have given to this individual and, give a much better location for exit?

remember the times were different back then, and Cooper was probably certain that the crew would not leave the cockpit, allowing him all the time in the world back there. most bank robbers tell them to wait 5 minutes before doing anything after they leave, most if not all abide to these commands!

To stretch it even further, this could be a possible reason the money is on Tena Bar that seems to confuse everyone, he simply went back and put the money there in order to keep the area contained for the "probable jump area" this is yet another clue that nobody can agree on how the money got there. we have people believing he went into the river, we have people thinking he jumped in the area where the money was found, it's a win win for Cooper in order to cover his escape.

Cooper did not mention Reno as a place he wanted to go. He only agreed to the crew's suggestion of a fuel stop in Reno. And Cooper had no knowledge of any kind on the flight path the airliner used between V-23 and across the mountains to Reno.

agree, he said Mexico City. 'cant land in the USA'
(paraphrase his original request).

Hut's idea above is novel!

[mrshutter45 21]

"Cooper did not mention Reno as a place he wanted to go. He only agreed to the crew's suggestion of a fuel stop in Reno. And Cooper had no knowledge of any kind on the flight path the airliner used between V-23 and across the mountains to Reno."

agreed, I was simply stating Reno as the reference, would have said the same if they landed in Phoenix, I'm sure he would known they were landing soon by a drop in altitude, the airport was covered, but I'm sure 3 or 4 miles out it was not, again just a theory, I have a video uploading I would like you to look at in the next few minutes.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 244]

Where ya been! ?

Please come back -

[mrshutter45 21]

this was taken from the ridiculous movie the pursuit Of DB Cooper, the start of the film shows a man jumping off the stairs, if this was a actual jump, questions remain about the stairs. IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZIwhoyIkIo

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 244]

Quote

"Cooper did not mention Reno as a place he wanted to go. He only agreed to the crew's suggestion of a fuel stop in Reno. And Cooper had no knowledge of any kind on the flight path the airliner used between V-23 and across the mountains to Reno."

agreed, I was simply stating Reno as the reference, would have said the same if they landed in Phoenix, I'm sure he would known they were landing soon by a drop in altitude, the airport was covered, but I'm sure 3 or 4 miles out it was not, again just a theory, I have a video uploading I would like you to look at in the next few minutes.

Mexico City may have been a ruse? Maybe an effort to
link his jaking with all the Cuban hijacking going on?
'I will parachute or go to Mexico City' ?

Then he parachutes rather quickly in Washington State
which seems to give the lie to wanting to go to Mex Cty
or anywhere outside of the continental USA.

?

[matthewcline 0]

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has anyone discussed the amount of rope taken from the reserve chute? I know it was 79.6 feet, but has anyone really wondered or tried to figure out where it all went, I know a handle was believed to be made and he probably tied it to his chest and had a lead for ground detection, but 80 feet?

I think there was a post on this subject within the past month of so. And I believe it said that Tom Kaye measured the length of the missing shroud lines and that it was about the equivalent of two shroud lines (maybe three).

Each shroud line on the reserve from the riser to the skirt of the canopy is about 15 feet long. So that would be about 30 (maybe 45) feet of shroud line used by Cooper.

In reality, that isn't an excessive amount for just tying the money bag to the harness or his body.

Don't forget the two lengths of rope to tie the reserve chute onto the back of the harness, if he followed instructions, which I am convinced he did. Lots and lots of gramma knots or whatever. Duane was supposedly a knot expert, but one would not have to be a knot expert to tie knots, wether or not the knots were not gramma knots. That's just nuts, not knots. ......Knoss.

Looking at the harness, there is no place for this to happen. Plus two strands of 550 cord type parachute shroud is only ~1000lbs for a tensile strength rating.

If this was the plan, and these are actual instructions, in the event of a total mal, this would prove to be most likely a fatal plan. Not to mention that the Reserve being tied to the BACK of the harness would start the fatal sequence of events.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Robert99 50]

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this was taken from the ridiculous movie the pursuit Of DB Cooper, the start of the film shows a man jumping off the stairs, if this was a actual jump, questions remain about the stairs. IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZIwhoyIkIo

In the video of the southeast Asia jumps, if my memory is correct, the stairs did not appear to move as the jumpers came out. To me, this suggests that the stairs were "locked" in a down position. This in turn suggests that the southeast Asia 727 aircraft used stairs that had been specifically modified for those operations. That it, they were not "line" 727 passenger aircraft.

[georger 244]

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this was taken from the ridiculous movie the pursuit Of DB Cooper, the start of the film shows a man jumping off the stairs, if this was a actual jump, questions remain about the stairs. IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZIwhoyIkIo

In the video of the southeast Asia jumps, if my memory is correct, the stairs did not appear to move as the jumpers came out. To me, this suggests that the stairs were "locked" in a down position. This in turn suggests that the southeast Asia 727 aircraft used stairs that had been specifically modified for those operations. That it, they were not "line" 727 passenger aircraft.

its on the list of Q's to ask ... several are working in
the background as time permits (its their area of interest) ... at length they will be back ...

[mrshutter45 21]

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this was taken from the ridiculous movie the pursuit Of DB Cooper, the start of the film shows a man jumping off the stairs, if this was a actual jump, questions remain about the stairs. IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZIwhoyIkIo

In the video of the southeast Asia jumps, if my memory is correct, the stairs did not appear to move as the jumpers came out. To me, this suggests that the stairs were "locked" in a down position. This in turn suggests that the southeast Asia 727 aircraft used stairs that had been specifically modified for those operations. That it, they were not "line" 727 passenger aircraft.

well if the stairs were not in the locked position, would this video be plausible for showing there was probably no oscillation after jumping, the door didn't reach the closing point pushing air inside?

and maybe, just maybe another reason he wanted the stairs down at take off, not that he was going to jump very early in the game but, if the stairs were in the locked position, they would have no idea when he jumped? so possibly he created a jump point for them himself, since the stairs were not locked, crazy yes, possible, who knows

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

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this was taken from the ridiculous movie the pursuit Of DB Cooper, the start of the film shows a man jumping off the stairs, if this was a actual jump, questions remain about the stairs. IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZIwhoyIkIo

In the video of the southeast Asia jumps, if my memory is correct, the stairs did not appear to move as the jumpers came out. To me, this suggests that the stairs were "locked" in a down position. This in turn suggests that the southeast Asia 727 aircraft used stairs that had been specifically modified for those operations. That it, they were not "line" 727 passenger aircraft.

well if the stairs were not in the locked position, would this video be plausible for showing there was probably no oscillation after jumping, the door didn't reach the closing point pushing air inside?

This means to me, as an aeronautical engineer, that this specific 727 was going somewhat slower than the hijacked airliner was when Cooper jumped.

In the FBI tests, the stairs went back up enough to give the members of the hijacked airliner crew who were on board the same impressions that they got when Cooper jumped.

As 377 has discussed several times previously, when he was on board a DC-9 (which has aft stairs similiar to the 727) with a load of skydivers, he could tell when each skydiver went through the stair opening (the stairs had been removed for the skydivers) even if he wasn't looking at them.

I'll stick with the stairs slamming back against the fuselage at the speeds the hijacked airliner was traveling (about 170 KIAS) when Cooper jumped.

[BobKnoss 0]

Looking at the harness, there is no place for this to happen. Plus two strands of 550 cord type parachute shroud is only ~1000lbs for a tensile strength rating.

If this was the plan, and these are actual instructions, in the event of a total mal, this would prove to be most likely a fatal plan. Not to mention that the Reserve being tied to the BACK of the harness would start the fatal sequence of events.

Matt

As a complete novice and knowing NOTHING of this subject, it would be totally fool hearty of me to try to fabricate a parachute modification such as this. It was the concept of one of the best riggers in the business, and if I told you who he had rigged for you would be impressed. If you knew who it was that claimed this, you would not doubt it for one second, but because you assume some amateur thinking you brush it off. Assume quietly in your own mind so nobody see you, that a rigger of, say The Blue Angels (NOT) told you this is what they did. What then, smarty pants? What then? Crow is better when roasted over mesquite. Be nice and we can talk nice.

[mrshutter45 21]

fair enough, so basically it was Cooper himself causing the oscillation when he exited the plane. that makes sense, didn't think of that

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[BobKnoss 0]

I'll stick with the stairs slamming back against the fuselage at the speeds the hijacked airliner was traveling (about 170 KIAS) when Cooper jumped.

As a streetwise dumb ass with a smart mouth, I think the aeronautical analysis of the stairs would be such to create a vacuum under the stairs above horizontal, increasing in vacuum as the stairs would approach the fuselage.

Below horizontal there would be an upward force on the stairs, counteracted by the weight of the jumper (Duane Weber) the money and equipment. He left the stairs face first and hit his right leg on the railing as he left. The stairs were not fully extended due to wind pressure of 170 knots?

The stairs would immediately react to the loss of 225 est. load at the end of the stairs and, assisted by wind force, head for the fuselage as you surmise. But there I see a rub. The width of the stairs and the angle of the fuselage, the weight of the stairs, the slow speed do not add up to enough force to quite reach the closed position.

The fact that the crew only experienced a dip/lift and not a slam or crash or bang would support this analysis. I conducted all my experiments with the index finger of my left hand. I can certify my criteria so you may rerun for verification.

"well if the stairs were not in the locked position, would this video be plausible for showing there was probably no oscillation after jumping, the door didn't reach the closing point pushing air inside?"

Cabin pressure was shut off. Cabin pressure would be negative.

"and maybe, just maybe another reason he wanted the stairs down at take off, not that he was going to jump very early in the game but, if the stairs were in the locked position, they would have no idea when he jumped? so possibly he created a jump point for them himself, since the stairs were not locked, crazy yes, possible, who knows "

You can not take off with the stairs locked down on a standard runway. Watch a 727 takeoff. The stairs would drag big time! The jump point was predetermined in 1968 and the run was double checked and zeroed more than once. If the stairs were locked down when landing they would have been planted in the tarmac.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zKZvvk_hbU

[matthewcline 0]

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Looking at the harness, there is no place for this to happen. Plus two strands of 550 cord type parachute shroud is only ~1000lbs for a tensile strength rating.

If this was the plan, and these are actual instructions, in the event of a total mal, this would prove to be most likely a fatal plan. Not to mention that the Reserve being tied to the BACK of the harness would start the fatal sequence of events.

Matt

As a complete novice and knowing NOTHING of this subject, it would be totally fool hearty of me to try to fabricate a parachute modification such as this. It was the concept of one of the best riggers in the business, and if I told you who he had rigged for you would be impressed. If you knew who it was that claimed this, you would not doubt it for one second, but because you assume some amateur thinking you brush it off. Assume quietly in your own mind so nobody see you, that a rigger of, say The Blue Angels (NOT) told you this is what they did. What then, smarty pants? What then? Crow is better when roasted over mesquite. Be nice and we can talk nice.

No Crow to eat, the scenario would be a fatal one, so put the failure of a riggers name out there, I will tell him personally, this is a fatal bit of advice he was giving.

Give him my name, and have him call me to call me out here, either way.

The rigging you state, would not work for the Harness that was used (or the harness believed to be used).

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Robert99 50]

Quote

fair enough, so basically it was Cooper himself causing the oscillation when he exited the plane. that makes sense, didn't think of that

Cooper would walk down the stairs relatively slowly until they lowered enough for him to make a clean jump without hitting the fuselage or the stairs. So it was an interaction between Cooper, the stairs, and the aerodynamics of the stairs.

The skydivers went through the stair opening (remember the stairs had been removed) head first. They were the sole cause of the pressure and sound changes that 377 mentioned.

[BobKnoss 0]

"The rigging you state, would not work for the Harness that was used (or the harness believed to be used)."

Since the rig that was used has not been found we can not assume the description was correct. He jumped with the one marked with the "X", and THAT is fact. He may have tied the reserve onto the back of whatever was with the "X" rig. That was an option depending on how everything was going to be tied. The decision was Duane's. I do not know what he did, only that he was give those instructions, weird as they may be. I think he did the swap as he wanted the money in front, which fits what I've heard on here. I do not question what I've been told. I just repeat it word for word when I can. I have no purpose to do otherwise.

[BobKnoss 0]

"Cooper would walk down the stairs relatively slowly until they lowered enough for him to make a clean jump without hitting the fuselage or the stairs. So it was an interaction between Cooper, the stairs, and the aerodynamics of the stairs."

But he did hit the stairs as they came back up, so he probably did a spring-board thingie to get whapped on the right leg by the stairs rebounding. Or, perhaps he did not go to the last step? Anyway, he got a really sound hit according to McCoy and even more recent accounts. I can certify this as fact.

[hangdiver 1]

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Give him my name, and have him call me to call me out here, either way.

Matt, don't even bother talking to such a "touched" individual...although he does give me great laughs...so his posts do have a function.

Cooper did exit somewhere between Seattle and Reno..."I'll certify that for a dollar".

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[Robert99 50]

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"Cooper would walk down the stairs relatively slowly until they lowered enough for him to make a clean jump without hitting the fuselage or the stairs. So it was an interaction between Cooper, the stairs, and the aerodynamics of the stairs."

But he did hit the stairs as they came back up, so he probably did a spring-board thingie to get whapped on the right leg by the stairs rebounding. Or, perhaps he did not go to the last step? Anyway, he got a really sound hit according to McCoy and even more recent accounts. I can certify this as fact.

Knoss, Even with a certificate from you, the "fact" is still
BS.

[georger 244]

Looking at the harness, there is no place for this to happen. Plus two strands of 550 cord type parachute shroud is only ~1000lbs for a tensile strength rating.

If this was the plan, and these are actual instructions, in the event of a total mal, this would prove to be most likely a fatal plan. Not to mention that the Reserve being tied to the BACK of the harness would start the fatal sequence of events.

Matt

[Amazon 7]

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Looking at the harness, there is no place for this to happen. Plus two strands of 550 cord type parachute shroud is only ~1000lbs for a tensile strength rating.

If this was the plan, and these are actual instructions, in the event of a total mal, this would prove to be most likely a fatal plan. Not to mention that the Reserve being tied to the BACK of the harness would start the fatal sequence of events.

Matt

Matt can you break this down into the steps, of what
you think would happen?

550 is rated for what breaking force? ~1000lbs?

550 cord is called 550 for a not so obscure reason....
From Wiki

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Type III, a type commonly found in use, is nominally rated with a minimum breaking strength of 550 pounds, thus the sobriquet "550 cord".

AND... the idiocy of "tying" a reserve to the back.... uh.. DOES NOT COMPUTE...
No one in the BK fantasy group would have had a clue who would provide the rigs so how do you plan for a skydiving rigger to show up with a bail out rig... and not a skydiving one.

Then the stupidity REALLY shows its mettle.

1. It would interfere with the operation of the main...if it is tied onto the top of the bailout rig.

2. If the "main" did open.. it would slam the "reserve" into your neck... probably breaking it.

3. If you did have to use the reserve... I would love to see someone find AND then pull the handle behind their head.

[mrshutter45 21]

"No Crow to eat, the scenario would be a fatal one, so put the failure of a riggers name out there, I will tell him personally, this is a fatal bit of advice he was giving."

"Give him my name, and have him call me to call me out here, either way."

according to Bob....TOG is the "expert rigger" that he knows, but, he claims he has no knowledge of chutes?
you just go in circles with him, never ending and continuing to grow everyday.



BobKnoss

Jumps
License
In sport
Apr 3, 2012, 10:02 AM

Post #33301 of 33991 (399 views)
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Registered: Jan 17, 2011
Posts: 740

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Looking at the harness, there is no place for this to happen. Plus two strands of 550 cord type parachute shroud is only ~1000lbs for a tensile strength rating.

If this was the plan, and these are actual instructions, in the event of a total mal, this would prove to be most likely a fatal plan. Not to mention that the Reserve being tied to the BACK of the harness would start the fatal sequence of events.

Matt

Matt can you break this down into the steps, of what
you think would happen?

550 is rated for what breaking force? ~1000lbs?

550 cord is called 550 for a not so obscure reason....
From Wiki

Quote

Type III, a type commonly found in use, is nominally rated with a minimum breaking strength of 550 pounds, thus the sobriquet "550 cord".

AND... the idiocy of "tying" a reserve to the back.... uh.. DOES NOT COMPUTE...
No one in the BK fantasy group would have had a clue who would provide the rigs so how do you plan for a skydiving rigger to show up with a bail out rig... and not a skydiving one.

Then the stupidity REALLY shows its mettle.

1. It would interfere with the operation of the main...if it is tied onto the top of the bailout rig.

2. If the "main" did open.. it would slam the "reserve" into your neck... probably breaking it.

3. If you did have to use the reserve... I would love to see someone find AND then pull the handle behind their head.

makes sense. I guessed the 550 was 550 but
thought better to ask. Some force calcs on the net:
yank greater than any ~1000ln/si

There's a nice calculator if anyone has it at:
http://www.pcprg.com/pifcalc_manual.pdf

Otherwise:
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/newtlaws/s
d.cfm

and:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?
t=216776

I will learn the link underlining here some day.