georger 244 #33751 August 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteBlevins writes: IMHO sometimes common sense is lacking around this place. R99 replies: A brilliant observation! I agree with you and I'm sure several other people on this thread do also. Blevins writes: I'm surprised the Seattle FBI didn't figure it out. R99 replies: Maybe the FBI figured out that there wasn't anything to "figure out". Blevins writes: But when people don't play straight I will often question their results. R99 replies: Who is not playing straight with you? Can you list some names and examples of what is not "straight"? Robert99 There are always slow learners in a class. You cant stop the whole class just to tutor one individual. That would quickly lead to a breakdown of the system and anarachy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #33752 August 21, 2012 Why not follow your own advice RobertMBlevins? The FBI hires smart people just like the Burke Museum. The FBI is a national police force which requires educational accomplishment, physical training and studies in law enforcement before getting to wear the badge of a Special Agent. Their investigations are far more complete and sound than any citizen collective of part time amateurs. You should just accept the analysis of the FBI just the way you want everyone to accept the flight path from the Citizen Sleuths, without any independent validation (look what came home to roost in less than 24 hours). Why is everything so incongruent with you? If the FBI said the parachute from Amboy is irrelevant, then so be it. The FBI is smart and strong. Why waste effort on something which has already been answered? Just accept what the smart FBI says whether they are right or wrong (poetic license, not an irrational ethos). The FBI are a smart group of people who I want to know more about rather than get bogged down with any of their data. I’m sure you know that is was a local author who published the Amboy chute being from an aircraft crashing during WWII and NOT the FBI. The smart FBI who are hired by the FBI because they don’t hire dummies, that’s for sure; said Cooper probably died with science and flasks with bubbling fluids. This is enough for anyone to know and they can move on to help by discovering the grave of DB Cooper who is dead. So please stay on the one true path which involves finding Cooper’s grave, where he died in 1971. There’s no need to question the FBI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #33753 August 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteBlevins writes: IMHO sometimes common sense is lacking around this place. R99 replies: A brilliant observation! I agree with you and I'm sure several other people on this thread do also. Blevins writes: I'm surprised the Seattle FBI didn't figure it out. R99 replies: Maybe the FBI figured out that there wasn't anything to "figure out". Blevins writes: But when people don't play straight I will often question their results. R99 replies: Who is not playing straight with you? Can you list some names and examples of what is not "straight"? Robert99 There are always slow learners in a class. You cant stop the whole class just to tutor one individual. That would quickly lead to a breakdown of the system and anarachy. Been called a lot of things, but 'slow learner' isn't one of them. On the Surprised comment: I'm surprised that the FBI didn't question the idea of how exactly more than one bundle of the ransom cash ended up in the same spot by 'natural means,' which seems extremely unlikely. I thought I explained this scenario pretty well back there, and why I doubt their theory that this brought them to the conclusion that the hijacker died in the jump. If you choose to accept their conclusion, that's up to you, but frankly...the Seattle FBI (God love 'em they do good work every day) hasn't exactly batted a thousand on the Cooper case. Again...examples: Putting forward that Marla was a good witness, suggesting that the Amboy chute was from a pilot who bailed out in the same area BEFORE the chute was actually manufactured. That article on the Amboy chute got a lot of votes and has been read thousands of times now. Why? BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE. Anyone who calls me a 'slow learner' needs to look in the mirror and start questioning the FBI's 'official' position on certain items regarding the hijacking, especially when these positions come from the FBI alone, and without outside help. The flight path was not done by the FBI alone, which IMHO makes their conclusions a bit more reliable. If they had figured this out on their own, I would doubt it as much as I've doubted their results on Tena Bar or the Amboy chute. As far as the chute goes, ask yourself WHY outside chute experts in the Puget Sound area have not been allowed to examine it. And WHY the Kaye team was not allowed access to it. I could give you one theory: If it were determined independently that the chute WAS Cooper's...then the FBI would have to admit Cooper didn't die in the jump. It's easier for them to believe this. Still playing your game of GOTCHA. The problem is you have nothing to play GOTCHA with! Except your own personal version of - common sense? Opinion is not proof. And your "opinions" havent discovered anything so far. Your stubbornness is not intelligence. Your Gotcha is not science. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33754 August 21, 2012 QuoteQuote"Flight #305 never left the V23 airway the entire time he had them on radar." do you have a map showing V23? V-23 is shown on a number of charts. If you are also interested in the topographical information, then see the standard FAA sectional chart that is used for VFR flying. If you are interested in the actual chart (or at least the navigational information) that the hijacked airliner crew was using during the flight from Seattle to Reno, then take a look at the Low Altitude Enroute IFR chart that is on Sluggo's web page (and brought to you at a cost of several hundred dollars). However, the airliner crew was probably using the Jeppesen version of that chart. Same information but arranged slightly differently. Robert99 I have victor maps and topo with the software, I'll post my map once I get in order here, just got home."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33755 August 22, 2012 Ummmm, I don't have anything to do with your battle Robert, you have the wrong person! second time you have done this "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33756 August 22, 2012 QuoteIt was FBI agent Robbie Burroughs who suggested the chute might belong to Lt. Walling. And yes...reporter Casey McNerthney at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. But Burroughs was going along with that theory...and they had already examined the chute. Several of your statements including, but not limited to the one above, do not appear to be accurate if you are basing them on this article. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Suspected-D-B-Cooper-parachute-may-actually-be-1268879.php Read the article again.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #33757 August 22, 2012 Here’s an article published less than a week after the great Amboy discovery with all the pre-selected answers going at it. They are fully aware of the date on the chute and that it isn’t Coopers. No ambiguity there at all: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Suspected-D-B-Cooper-parachute-may-actually-be-1268879.php What we have here is a couple of locals who are hell bent on making this parachute belong to Lt. Walling in spite of all the contrary evidence. Just like Dan Cooper comic books on Shemya or which way the Columbia flows in relation to Paradise Point Park. So utterly blinded by dogma, people can’t see what is patently obvious. So incredibly desperate to tie the chute to Walling that the date of 21 Feb 1946, stamped ON the parachute was, without source or evidence, surmised to be a repack date. Are you kidding me? What possible purpose would a repacking date stamped on a parachute, which is then packed into a container and sealed, possibly serve? Hey Lieutenant Walling, when is that chute due for a re-pack? Hold on while I pull the ripcord, then unravel the canopy, find the date stamped and I will know when it is due for a repack. OK, Lieutenant, that sounds good, I’ll wait over there next to that herd of unicorns while you check to see if your parachute needs repacking. Burroughs said it was possibly Walling’s but they weren’t doing anything with is since it is NOT Cooper’s. She was “shining them on”. Just like being soooo desperate to tie Kenny with a comic book on Shemya which would not be published for several years, these yokels were willing to suspend disbelief and declare a manufacture stamp, a re-pack date. Same silly behaviors by two different people who can’t see the error in their respective approaches, but oh so clearly see it in others. Bizarre. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33758 August 22, 2012 Right up there with "keep door closed at all times" ??? what ya put a door there for then?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33759 August 22, 2012 QuoteEarlier, they had taken the word of Earl Cossey that the chute was silk, and not nylon, and THAT was why it couldn't be Cooper's. This claim has been roundly discounted. In any event, Cossey has been named repeatedly as the 'main expert' they consulted on the chute...and he couldn't even tell the difference between silk and first-gen nylon. This does NOT inspire confidence. Look, several of us had reservations about the chute...hey - I still do- but how can you make such sweeping declarations? Roundly discounted by who?? The Citizen's sleuth team who didn't even see it? The date? What and where is the proof (not speculation - proof) that this chute is first gen nylon? I'm not being facetious - maybe I missed it. I know the opinion about the condition, and I know when they stopped mfg silk parachutes...Has anyone that was consulted or seen the actual chute said that it was first-gen nylon?but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33760 August 22, 2012 QuoteThere are too many negatives and not enough positives to suggest 'creating' a 'new' flight path. Unless you think the placard flew out after the stairs were dropped...and then Rataczak suddenly decided to turn SW. Common sense might prevail over suspect numbers conjured up from a computer flight simulation. Why the hell do you think they concentrated the search around Merwin Lake and just south of there? Because the 305 flight crew didn't know where they were? (*laughs*) I'm not against trying to re-create the flight path using a computer flight simulator program. I am against the idea of trying to alter the known facts. If Kaye says he believes the *generally* accepted flight path works for him...I believe him. IMHO this project would be better off trying to IMPROVE on the accepted flight path, i.e. increase its accuracy, not try to shift it twenty miles to the west. Everyone has a theory on the Tena Bar money. That's a given. I thought it may have floated up there, too...except yes...I had someone tossing it into the water from the wrong direction. But after I did some serious reading and studying on Kaye's results, I go with HIS theory: The money was not in the water, and it arrived there by human hands. (Or as Kaye delicately puts it: 'by non-natural means'. We've been down this road before. But I'm going to bypass the Kaye stuff and give you my own reasons: 1) Possibility #1: Money dropped from the sky during the jump, i.e. hijacker lost it on the way down. An amount roughly equal to three bundles of the cash landed on Tena Bar. Problems with this scenario: Out of 200 bundles of cash, how did three land in the exact same spot? One bundle, maybe. A LOT of the bundles, maybe. But with three, and nothing else being found, no body, no briefcase, no chute, no NOTHING...this is unlikely. They would have scattered all over the sky. If MANY bundles were found, this would be better evidence. In that case, maybe start searching for bag fragments and other evidence. Possibility #2: Cooper was a no pull and he and the money went into the water somewhere...and later three bundles washed up on the shore somehow. Problem with this scenario: Second verse, same as the first. You would have to assume the three bundles had little strings attached to them to keep them together for their happy-happy little trip downriver, where they would have to wash up...wait for it now...TOGETHER at the exact same spot. One bundle, maybe. Lots of bundles, not a chance. There are also Kaye's results saying the money had not been there more than 18 months due to the condition of the rubber bands, and the lack of water damage on the bills. And due to the condition of the bills, we can probably rule out dredging. Scenario #3: Cooper no-pulled right into Tena Bar...a beach landing. Problems with this scenario: Then where the hell did his body and the rest of it go exactly? A search was made that produced nothing. Scenario #4: Money was planted there by a human being in an effort to make the FBI think he was dead, or perhaps someone who was NOT the hijacker came into possession of the money and did it. Problems with this scenario: This is actually the most likely explanation. It would explain the rubber bands, the condition of the bills, and the fact that nothing else was found on site. The real key here is the Number Three. It's a problem for those folks who believe Cooper was a no pull or otherwise died. How exactly can you explain how MORE than one bundle of the cash ended up in the SAME SPOT. This is common-sense. Think about it for a while before you decide to answer. My Completely Off-The-Wall Guess on WHY the Hijacker Would Plant the Bills 18-24 Months Before They Were Discovered: Statute of Limitations, something the hijacker may have been counting on, was bypassed in 1976. Maybe he decided a red herring was now in order to throw off the continued heat from the FBI. If this was his purpose, he succeeded. After the money was discovered, the FBI changed their stance on Cooper: They started saying they believed he died in the jump. If this theory were true, score one for the hijacker. Not sure WHO posted or composed the above, but it is a logical approach. No One supporting any specific subject, just exploring the evidence and the theories. I try - God Knows I Try, but sometime I just can't help myself. If Blevins made the above post then he is finally approaching this objectively. My head hurts to bad focus, but had to make a post.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33761 August 22, 2012 Placard Do not forget to factor in the winds that night and the card was very light - could have blown miles to the West. Too difficult to function to night, but I am trying to read all of the posts.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33762 August 22, 2012 QuoteQuoteEarlier, they had taken the word of Earl Cossey that the chute was silk, and not nylon, and THAT was why it couldn't be Cooper's. This claim has been roundly discounted. In any event, Cossey has been named repeatedly as the 'main expert' they consulted on the chute...and he couldn't even tell the difference between silk and first-gen nylon. This does NOT inspire confidence. Look, several of us had reservations about the chute...hey - I still do- but how can you make such sweeping declarations? Roundly discounted by who?? The Citizen's sleuth team who didn't even see it? The date? What and where is the proof (not speculation - proof) that this chute is first gen nylon? I'm not being facetious - maybe I missed it. I know the opinion about the condition, and I know when they stopped mfg silk parachutes...Has anyone that was consulted or seen the actual chute said that it was first-gen nylon? can the number on the chute be traced?? 307551?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33763 August 22, 2012 I can hardly function right now - please address the question U had and the specific part of the post of whatever I said.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #33764 August 22, 2012 Smokin99, This subject still gives me a headache because the simplest questions always took several iterations thanks to all the anticipation and deflection, rather than a spontaneous and sincere answer. Here’s the research Bruce Smith did on the two back-pack chutes: http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ It seems so simple. Hayden purchased two similar, if not identical emergency aircrew parachutes for his aerobatic flights. Presumably the one Hayden displayed is the one which Cooper left behind which offered some slight clarifications. One being that these were NB-6 ‘type’ chutes and not military as previously published/thought. Sort of like what a Hummer was to a Humvee, I would imagine. Second was the era of manufacture. There is an image which clearly has a manufacture date of April 1957. Nothing close to the Amboy chute date of 1946. So if the Amboy chute was made out of silk, nylon or unicorn mane mattered not, since Cooper’s chute was presumably manufactured a decade later. But hope springs eternal with any error on anyone’s part because this still could be the ‘Golden Ticket’ to the chocolate factory. I gave up in abject disgust once it became obvious that the Amboy chute would not go quietly into the trivia heap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33765 August 22, 2012 Tom knows all about the program and also thinks it's a good idea, I see this as another tool in this huge argument of finding the truth, many have used calculators, many have counted on there fingers to solve a problem....I thought I would try this and see what happens recreation is a very good tool for any investigator, I would like to re-create the flight path the FBI shows and see if it matches, if does then so be it, I would also like to try different versions and see if anything shakes the tree so to speak. something might give a clue in doing this, once again I just don't know until it's complete, we can sit here a go back and forth about how the flight path can or can not be right for the next 10 years, or we can say, yes it's right because it was re-flown. either way it's a win win if you ask me "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33766 August 22, 2012 QuoteBasically the wind was from the southwest and the placard was found at an elevation of about 1500 feet above sea level. Check Tom's web site for the information used in the actual calculations and the explanation of the results. This includes the coordinates of the location where the placard was found. Have you ever looked at a REAL map of where that placard was found. Mark it on a REAL map not a flight map and then look at where witnesses where located. Read the witness reports....but, then maybe I am the only one since 1971 to talk to many of these individuals. They were NOT all over the map. The area of the most unusual notices of the plane was NOT in a normal flight path - these witnesses all lived in the areas for yr. Think about Cooper's guiding light! There were NO stars to be seen and little ground - he chose the brightest place within his range and that site put the placard where it was found....West of where he bailed which was not too far very far from Battleground - North East. The FBI was not really too far off with their seach.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33767 August 22, 2012 Quote Smokin99, This subject still gives me a headache because the simplest questions always took several iterations thanks to all the anticipation and deflection, rather than a spontaneous and sincere answer. Here’s the research Bruce Smith did on the two back-pack chutes: http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ It seems so simple. Hayden purchased two similar, if not identical emergency aircrew parachutes for his aerobatic flights. Presumably the one Hayden displayed is the one which Cooper left behind which offered some slight clarifications. One being that these were NB-6 ‘type’ chutes and not military as previously published/thought. Sort of like what a Hummer was to a Humvee, I would imagine. Second was the era of manufacture. There is an image which clearly has a manufacture date of April 1957. Nothing close to the Amboy chute date of 1946. So if the Amboy chute was made out of silk, nylon or unicorn mane mattered not, since Cooper’s chute was presumably manufactured a decade later. But hope springs eternal with any error on anyone’s part because this still could be the ‘Golden Ticket’ to the chocolate factory. I gave up in abject disgust once it became obvious that the Amboy chute would not go quietly into the trivia heap. lol..unicorn mane... Thanks. I forgot about Hayden's chutes. This thread has been kinda bonkers for a spell and I kind of lost interest for a while. The whole parachute thing has always made me wanta "say what??" anyway. Cossey, Hayden, the other guy from Issaquah (sp?) that was featured in an article, varying accounts from the day - all different takes on the parachutes. I guess a parachute buried in the ground in Cooperland is just so intriguing...it's hard not to be afflicted with Golden ticketitis. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33768 August 22, 2012 QuoteI have trouble with the planting scenario, the where and the way it was found doesn't lend itself to the theory. Wouldn't a 'planting' be more obvious and in a place it 'surely' would be eventually found? -burying it in the sand is throwing money away to me. Was there NOT a small shed up under the trees on the Fazio property in 1971 and in 1979. Could have been a small storage shed or an out house - it was not there in 2001 when I was in WA. The money was found just a few feet from approximately where this little building was and not too far from the gate. I have never seen a report on the find that indicates a small building of some sort used be back a few feet to the north and to the west of the money location. Does anyone know how to find the answer to this question? Probably not! Perhaps someone who knows how to contact Mr. Fazio might be able to field this question to him or perhaps it has been answered in the past.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33769 August 22, 2012 QuoteBut the money did find its way to Tena Bar. I don't think it floated down the Columbia River, I don't think it walked in by itself, and I don't think someone deliberately buried it there. That narrows the possibilities down to about a single one. Robert99 You and a lot of people ARE wrong - it was buried there! Another site was not too far from a green tank East of the Bridge to Portland and East of a park built there prior to 1980, but not sure it was completed. Another way it could have reached Tena Bar was from the rear of the Red Lion just West of the old bridge.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33770 August 22, 2012 QuoteTo clear up another point that you haven't asked yet, the location of the town of Toutle is not the same on the 1971 and present day maps. There was an extensive discussion about this on this thread several months ago. Farflung resolved the problem by showing what happens when you move the town of Toutle 2 or 3 miles west on the old maps. For more information, check the thread. This should not cause any problems with the placard discussion or calculations with the possible exception of the references of where the placard was found with respect to Toutle. WGS84 maps and GPS coordinates were used in the placard calculations. Robert99 If you could repeat those maps in an overlay old versus current, I would appreciate it since I do NOT go to other sites and do NOT remember Farflung doing this. Thank you. Jo Weber.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #33771 August 22, 2012 QuotePlacard Do not forget to factor in the winds that night and the card was very light - could have blown miles to the West. Too difficult to function to night, but I am trying to read all of the posts. Jo, Please read the following carefully. The winds were factored in. The winds were from the SOUTHWEST and would have blown the placard to the NORTHEAST. That apparently happened. There is nothing to indicate that the winds would blow the placard to the WEST. Please read the placard information on Tom Kaye's web page. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33772 August 22, 2012 Quotecan the number on the chute be traced?? 307551? No but I looked in my old clippings and did find an article about a B52 that went down in the general area in 47. About 10 miles southwest of kelso? How close is that to the parachute find? Pilot and co-pilot were killed. Two passengers parachuted out. Both got help from people in nearby farmhouses. One injured critically - needed ambulance taken to Longview Hospital. The other passenger landed several miles from the crash scene and made it to a farmhouse where he got a ride into Kelso - This was his first ride in an airplane. he said "they hung a chute on me, told me what to do, then shoved me out of the plane". His name is Elmer L Taff - he was going home on furlough to Mertzon, TX. He was 23 years old then - maybe he's still around.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33773 August 22, 2012 I am signing off for the night. I have hung in and tried to see the pain tonight so I am going to take some medication and go to bed. Got a tetanus shot about 6 wks ago and having some REALLY bad problems. I had a tetanus in 2004 along with the Rabies series after being bit by a bat. Then a few wk ago I got what I thought was a snake bite and went to the ER - they gave me another tetanus - for a bite? They should only have give me a booster. In 2004 I developed some problems, but thought it was caused by the rabies series. The problem took over 2 yrs to subside and they kept looking for a neurogical problem. The problem is back and esculated, except this time it involves more than just the lower legs. My arms and back - and tonight the eyes twitching and I can hardly keep my eyes focused on the screen. Facial numbness and pain in the back of my neck and front of my head. Corner of eyeball feel like I was stuck with pin and left is twitching. If a tetanus was called for it should have only been a booster but they gave me the works and only 8 yrs apart. Goodnight!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #33774 August 22, 2012 QuoteI am signing off for the night. I have hung in and tried to see the pain tonight so I am going to take some medication and go to bed. Got a tetanus shot about 6 wks ago and having some REALLY bad problems. I had a tetanus in 2004 along with the Rabies series after being bit by a bat. Then a few wk ago I got what I thought was a snake bite and went to the ER - they gave me another tetanus - for a bite? They should only have give me a booster. In 2004 I developed some problems, but thought it was caused by the rabies series. The problem took over 2 yrs to subside and they kept looking for a neurogical problem. The problem is back and esculated, except this time it involves more than just the lower legs. My arms and back - and tonight the eyes twitching and I can hardly keep my eyes focused on the screen. Facial numbness and pain in the back of my neck and front of my head. If a tetanus was called for it should have only been a booster but they gave me the works and only 8 yrs apart. Goodnight! Any chance that chute could have belonged to Geestman? Or to a woman driving 8 Clydesdales a breast. Breasts that big might require a parachute? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33775 August 22, 2012 Quote Oh...nylon not silk...yes. If the chute were silk, and it had been buried since either 71 or 45, there would be signs of serious rotting. Silk is biodegradable. Well first, the chute was rather tattered in places. Second, I read that silk garments and tapestries have been unearthed in excavations from ancient civilizations in excellent condition - no raveling or discoloration. Some which had been exposed to the elements. Maybe that was a different kind of silk. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 1356 Next Page 1351 of 2568 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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Farflung 0 #33752 August 21, 2012 Why not follow your own advice RobertMBlevins? The FBI hires smart people just like the Burke Museum. The FBI is a national police force which requires educational accomplishment, physical training and studies in law enforcement before getting to wear the badge of a Special Agent. Their investigations are far more complete and sound than any citizen collective of part time amateurs. You should just accept the analysis of the FBI just the way you want everyone to accept the flight path from the Citizen Sleuths, without any independent validation (look what came home to roost in less than 24 hours). Why is everything so incongruent with you? If the FBI said the parachute from Amboy is irrelevant, then so be it. The FBI is smart and strong. Why waste effort on something which has already been answered? Just accept what the smart FBI says whether they are right or wrong (poetic license, not an irrational ethos). The FBI are a smart group of people who I want to know more about rather than get bogged down with any of their data. I’m sure you know that is was a local author who published the Amboy chute being from an aircraft crashing during WWII and NOT the FBI. The smart FBI who are hired by the FBI because they don’t hire dummies, that’s for sure; said Cooper probably died with science and flasks with bubbling fluids. This is enough for anyone to know and they can move on to help by discovering the grave of DB Cooper who is dead. So please stay on the one true path which involves finding Cooper’s grave, where he died in 1971. There’s no need to question the FBI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #33753 August 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteBlevins writes: IMHO sometimes common sense is lacking around this place. R99 replies: A brilliant observation! I agree with you and I'm sure several other people on this thread do also. Blevins writes: I'm surprised the Seattle FBI didn't figure it out. R99 replies: Maybe the FBI figured out that there wasn't anything to "figure out". Blevins writes: But when people don't play straight I will often question their results. R99 replies: Who is not playing straight with you? Can you list some names and examples of what is not "straight"? Robert99 There are always slow learners in a class. You cant stop the whole class just to tutor one individual. That would quickly lead to a breakdown of the system and anarachy. Been called a lot of things, but 'slow learner' isn't one of them. On the Surprised comment: I'm surprised that the FBI didn't question the idea of how exactly more than one bundle of the ransom cash ended up in the same spot by 'natural means,' which seems extremely unlikely. I thought I explained this scenario pretty well back there, and why I doubt their theory that this brought them to the conclusion that the hijacker died in the jump. If you choose to accept their conclusion, that's up to you, but frankly...the Seattle FBI (God love 'em they do good work every day) hasn't exactly batted a thousand on the Cooper case. Again...examples: Putting forward that Marla was a good witness, suggesting that the Amboy chute was from a pilot who bailed out in the same area BEFORE the chute was actually manufactured. That article on the Amboy chute got a lot of votes and has been read thousands of times now. Why? BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE. Anyone who calls me a 'slow learner' needs to look in the mirror and start questioning the FBI's 'official' position on certain items regarding the hijacking, especially when these positions come from the FBI alone, and without outside help. The flight path was not done by the FBI alone, which IMHO makes their conclusions a bit more reliable. If they had figured this out on their own, I would doubt it as much as I've doubted their results on Tena Bar or the Amboy chute. As far as the chute goes, ask yourself WHY outside chute experts in the Puget Sound area have not been allowed to examine it. And WHY the Kaye team was not allowed access to it. I could give you one theory: If it were determined independently that the chute WAS Cooper's...then the FBI would have to admit Cooper didn't die in the jump. It's easier for them to believe this. Still playing your game of GOTCHA. The problem is you have nothing to play GOTCHA with! Except your own personal version of - common sense? Opinion is not proof. And your "opinions" havent discovered anything so far. Your stubbornness is not intelligence. Your Gotcha is not science. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33754 August 21, 2012 QuoteQuote"Flight #305 never left the V23 airway the entire time he had them on radar." do you have a map showing V23? V-23 is shown on a number of charts. If you are also interested in the topographical information, then see the standard FAA sectional chart that is used for VFR flying. If you are interested in the actual chart (or at least the navigational information) that the hijacked airliner crew was using during the flight from Seattle to Reno, then take a look at the Low Altitude Enroute IFR chart that is on Sluggo's web page (and brought to you at a cost of several hundred dollars). However, the airliner crew was probably using the Jeppesen version of that chart. Same information but arranged slightly differently. Robert99 I have victor maps and topo with the software, I'll post my map once I get in order here, just got home."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33755 August 22, 2012 Ummmm, I don't have anything to do with your battle Robert, you have the wrong person! second time you have done this "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33756 August 22, 2012 QuoteIt was FBI agent Robbie Burroughs who suggested the chute might belong to Lt. Walling. And yes...reporter Casey McNerthney at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. But Burroughs was going along with that theory...and they had already examined the chute. Several of your statements including, but not limited to the one above, do not appear to be accurate if you are basing them on this article. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Suspected-D-B-Cooper-parachute-may-actually-be-1268879.php Read the article again.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #33757 August 22, 2012 Here’s an article published less than a week after the great Amboy discovery with all the pre-selected answers going at it. They are fully aware of the date on the chute and that it isn’t Coopers. No ambiguity there at all: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Suspected-D-B-Cooper-parachute-may-actually-be-1268879.php What we have here is a couple of locals who are hell bent on making this parachute belong to Lt. Walling in spite of all the contrary evidence. Just like Dan Cooper comic books on Shemya or which way the Columbia flows in relation to Paradise Point Park. So utterly blinded by dogma, people can’t see what is patently obvious. So incredibly desperate to tie the chute to Walling that the date of 21 Feb 1946, stamped ON the parachute was, without source or evidence, surmised to be a repack date. Are you kidding me? What possible purpose would a repacking date stamped on a parachute, which is then packed into a container and sealed, possibly serve? Hey Lieutenant Walling, when is that chute due for a re-pack? Hold on while I pull the ripcord, then unravel the canopy, find the date stamped and I will know when it is due for a repack. OK, Lieutenant, that sounds good, I’ll wait over there next to that herd of unicorns while you check to see if your parachute needs repacking. Burroughs said it was possibly Walling’s but they weren’t doing anything with is since it is NOT Cooper’s. She was “shining them on”. Just like being soooo desperate to tie Kenny with a comic book on Shemya which would not be published for several years, these yokels were willing to suspend disbelief and declare a manufacture stamp, a re-pack date. Same silly behaviors by two different people who can’t see the error in their respective approaches, but oh so clearly see it in others. Bizarre. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33758 August 22, 2012 Right up there with "keep door closed at all times" ??? what ya put a door there for then?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33759 August 22, 2012 QuoteEarlier, they had taken the word of Earl Cossey that the chute was silk, and not nylon, and THAT was why it couldn't be Cooper's. This claim has been roundly discounted. In any event, Cossey has been named repeatedly as the 'main expert' they consulted on the chute...and he couldn't even tell the difference between silk and first-gen nylon. This does NOT inspire confidence. Look, several of us had reservations about the chute...hey - I still do- but how can you make such sweeping declarations? Roundly discounted by who?? The Citizen's sleuth team who didn't even see it? The date? What and where is the proof (not speculation - proof) that this chute is first gen nylon? I'm not being facetious - maybe I missed it. I know the opinion about the condition, and I know when they stopped mfg silk parachutes...Has anyone that was consulted or seen the actual chute said that it was first-gen nylon?but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33760 August 22, 2012 QuoteThere are too many negatives and not enough positives to suggest 'creating' a 'new' flight path. Unless you think the placard flew out after the stairs were dropped...and then Rataczak suddenly decided to turn SW. Common sense might prevail over suspect numbers conjured up from a computer flight simulation. Why the hell do you think they concentrated the search around Merwin Lake and just south of there? Because the 305 flight crew didn't know where they were? (*laughs*) I'm not against trying to re-create the flight path using a computer flight simulator program. I am against the idea of trying to alter the known facts. If Kaye says he believes the *generally* accepted flight path works for him...I believe him. IMHO this project would be better off trying to IMPROVE on the accepted flight path, i.e. increase its accuracy, not try to shift it twenty miles to the west. Everyone has a theory on the Tena Bar money. That's a given. I thought it may have floated up there, too...except yes...I had someone tossing it into the water from the wrong direction. But after I did some serious reading and studying on Kaye's results, I go with HIS theory: The money was not in the water, and it arrived there by human hands. (Or as Kaye delicately puts it: 'by non-natural means'. We've been down this road before. But I'm going to bypass the Kaye stuff and give you my own reasons: 1) Possibility #1: Money dropped from the sky during the jump, i.e. hijacker lost it on the way down. An amount roughly equal to three bundles of the cash landed on Tena Bar. Problems with this scenario: Out of 200 bundles of cash, how did three land in the exact same spot? One bundle, maybe. A LOT of the bundles, maybe. But with three, and nothing else being found, no body, no briefcase, no chute, no NOTHING...this is unlikely. They would have scattered all over the sky. If MANY bundles were found, this would be better evidence. In that case, maybe start searching for bag fragments and other evidence. Possibility #2: Cooper was a no pull and he and the money went into the water somewhere...and later three bundles washed up on the shore somehow. Problem with this scenario: Second verse, same as the first. You would have to assume the three bundles had little strings attached to them to keep them together for their happy-happy little trip downriver, where they would have to wash up...wait for it now...TOGETHER at the exact same spot. One bundle, maybe. Lots of bundles, not a chance. There are also Kaye's results saying the money had not been there more than 18 months due to the condition of the rubber bands, and the lack of water damage on the bills. And due to the condition of the bills, we can probably rule out dredging. Scenario #3: Cooper no-pulled right into Tena Bar...a beach landing. Problems with this scenario: Then where the hell did his body and the rest of it go exactly? A search was made that produced nothing. Scenario #4: Money was planted there by a human being in an effort to make the FBI think he was dead, or perhaps someone who was NOT the hijacker came into possession of the money and did it. Problems with this scenario: This is actually the most likely explanation. It would explain the rubber bands, the condition of the bills, and the fact that nothing else was found on site. The real key here is the Number Three. It's a problem for those folks who believe Cooper was a no pull or otherwise died. How exactly can you explain how MORE than one bundle of the cash ended up in the SAME SPOT. This is common-sense. Think about it for a while before you decide to answer. My Completely Off-The-Wall Guess on WHY the Hijacker Would Plant the Bills 18-24 Months Before They Were Discovered: Statute of Limitations, something the hijacker may have been counting on, was bypassed in 1976. Maybe he decided a red herring was now in order to throw off the continued heat from the FBI. If this was his purpose, he succeeded. After the money was discovered, the FBI changed their stance on Cooper: They started saying they believed he died in the jump. If this theory were true, score one for the hijacker. Not sure WHO posted or composed the above, but it is a logical approach. No One supporting any specific subject, just exploring the evidence and the theories. I try - God Knows I Try, but sometime I just can't help myself. If Blevins made the above post then he is finally approaching this objectively. My head hurts to bad focus, but had to make a post.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33761 August 22, 2012 Placard Do not forget to factor in the winds that night and the card was very light - could have blown miles to the West. Too difficult to function to night, but I am trying to read all of the posts.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33762 August 22, 2012 QuoteQuoteEarlier, they had taken the word of Earl Cossey that the chute was silk, and not nylon, and THAT was why it couldn't be Cooper's. This claim has been roundly discounted. In any event, Cossey has been named repeatedly as the 'main expert' they consulted on the chute...and he couldn't even tell the difference between silk and first-gen nylon. This does NOT inspire confidence. Look, several of us had reservations about the chute...hey - I still do- but how can you make such sweeping declarations? Roundly discounted by who?? The Citizen's sleuth team who didn't even see it? The date? What and where is the proof (not speculation - proof) that this chute is first gen nylon? I'm not being facetious - maybe I missed it. I know the opinion about the condition, and I know when they stopped mfg silk parachutes...Has anyone that was consulted or seen the actual chute said that it was first-gen nylon? can the number on the chute be traced?? 307551?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33763 August 22, 2012 I can hardly function right now - please address the question U had and the specific part of the post of whatever I said.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #33764 August 22, 2012 Smokin99, This subject still gives me a headache because the simplest questions always took several iterations thanks to all the anticipation and deflection, rather than a spontaneous and sincere answer. Here’s the research Bruce Smith did on the two back-pack chutes: http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ It seems so simple. Hayden purchased two similar, if not identical emergency aircrew parachutes for his aerobatic flights. Presumably the one Hayden displayed is the one which Cooper left behind which offered some slight clarifications. One being that these were NB-6 ‘type’ chutes and not military as previously published/thought. Sort of like what a Hummer was to a Humvee, I would imagine. Second was the era of manufacture. There is an image which clearly has a manufacture date of April 1957. Nothing close to the Amboy chute date of 1946. So if the Amboy chute was made out of silk, nylon or unicorn mane mattered not, since Cooper’s chute was presumably manufactured a decade later. But hope springs eternal with any error on anyone’s part because this still could be the ‘Golden Ticket’ to the chocolate factory. I gave up in abject disgust once it became obvious that the Amboy chute would not go quietly into the trivia heap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #33765 August 22, 2012 Tom knows all about the program and also thinks it's a good idea, I see this as another tool in this huge argument of finding the truth, many have used calculators, many have counted on there fingers to solve a problem....I thought I would try this and see what happens recreation is a very good tool for any investigator, I would like to re-create the flight path the FBI shows and see if it matches, if does then so be it, I would also like to try different versions and see if anything shakes the tree so to speak. something might give a clue in doing this, once again I just don't know until it's complete, we can sit here a go back and forth about how the flight path can or can not be right for the next 10 years, or we can say, yes it's right because it was re-flown. either way it's a win win if you ask me "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33766 August 22, 2012 QuoteBasically the wind was from the southwest and the placard was found at an elevation of about 1500 feet above sea level. Check Tom's web site for the information used in the actual calculations and the explanation of the results. This includes the coordinates of the location where the placard was found. Have you ever looked at a REAL map of where that placard was found. Mark it on a REAL map not a flight map and then look at where witnesses where located. Read the witness reports....but, then maybe I am the only one since 1971 to talk to many of these individuals. They were NOT all over the map. The area of the most unusual notices of the plane was NOT in a normal flight path - these witnesses all lived in the areas for yr. Think about Cooper's guiding light! There were NO stars to be seen and little ground - he chose the brightest place within his range and that site put the placard where it was found....West of where he bailed which was not too far very far from Battleground - North East. The FBI was not really too far off with their seach.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33767 August 22, 2012 Quote Smokin99, This subject still gives me a headache because the simplest questions always took several iterations thanks to all the anticipation and deflection, rather than a spontaneous and sincere answer. Here’s the research Bruce Smith did on the two back-pack chutes: http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ It seems so simple. Hayden purchased two similar, if not identical emergency aircrew parachutes for his aerobatic flights. Presumably the one Hayden displayed is the one which Cooper left behind which offered some slight clarifications. One being that these were NB-6 ‘type’ chutes and not military as previously published/thought. Sort of like what a Hummer was to a Humvee, I would imagine. Second was the era of manufacture. There is an image which clearly has a manufacture date of April 1957. Nothing close to the Amboy chute date of 1946. So if the Amboy chute was made out of silk, nylon or unicorn mane mattered not, since Cooper’s chute was presumably manufactured a decade later. But hope springs eternal with any error on anyone’s part because this still could be the ‘Golden Ticket’ to the chocolate factory. I gave up in abject disgust once it became obvious that the Amboy chute would not go quietly into the trivia heap. lol..unicorn mane... Thanks. I forgot about Hayden's chutes. This thread has been kinda bonkers for a spell and I kind of lost interest for a while. The whole parachute thing has always made me wanta "say what??" anyway. Cossey, Hayden, the other guy from Issaquah (sp?) that was featured in an article, varying accounts from the day - all different takes on the parachutes. I guess a parachute buried in the ground in Cooperland is just so intriguing...it's hard not to be afflicted with Golden ticketitis. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33768 August 22, 2012 QuoteI have trouble with the planting scenario, the where and the way it was found doesn't lend itself to the theory. Wouldn't a 'planting' be more obvious and in a place it 'surely' would be eventually found? -burying it in the sand is throwing money away to me. Was there NOT a small shed up under the trees on the Fazio property in 1971 and in 1979. Could have been a small storage shed or an out house - it was not there in 2001 when I was in WA. The money was found just a few feet from approximately where this little building was and not too far from the gate. I have never seen a report on the find that indicates a small building of some sort used be back a few feet to the north and to the west of the money location. Does anyone know how to find the answer to this question? Probably not! Perhaps someone who knows how to contact Mr. Fazio might be able to field this question to him or perhaps it has been answered in the past.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33769 August 22, 2012 QuoteBut the money did find its way to Tena Bar. I don't think it floated down the Columbia River, I don't think it walked in by itself, and I don't think someone deliberately buried it there. That narrows the possibilities down to about a single one. Robert99 You and a lot of people ARE wrong - it was buried there! Another site was not too far from a green tank East of the Bridge to Portland and East of a park built there prior to 1980, but not sure it was completed. Another way it could have reached Tena Bar was from the rear of the Red Lion just West of the old bridge.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33770 August 22, 2012 QuoteTo clear up another point that you haven't asked yet, the location of the town of Toutle is not the same on the 1971 and present day maps. There was an extensive discussion about this on this thread several months ago. Farflung resolved the problem by showing what happens when you move the town of Toutle 2 or 3 miles west on the old maps. For more information, check the thread. This should not cause any problems with the placard discussion or calculations with the possible exception of the references of where the placard was found with respect to Toutle. WGS84 maps and GPS coordinates were used in the placard calculations. Robert99 If you could repeat those maps in an overlay old versus current, I would appreciate it since I do NOT go to other sites and do NOT remember Farflung doing this. Thank you. Jo Weber.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #33771 August 22, 2012 QuotePlacard Do not forget to factor in the winds that night and the card was very light - could have blown miles to the West. Too difficult to function to night, but I am trying to read all of the posts. Jo, Please read the following carefully. The winds were factored in. The winds were from the SOUTHWEST and would have blown the placard to the NORTHEAST. That apparently happened. There is nothing to indicate that the winds would blow the placard to the WEST. Please read the placard information on Tom Kaye's web page. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33772 August 22, 2012 Quotecan the number on the chute be traced?? 307551? No but I looked in my old clippings and did find an article about a B52 that went down in the general area in 47. About 10 miles southwest of kelso? How close is that to the parachute find? Pilot and co-pilot were killed. Two passengers parachuted out. Both got help from people in nearby farmhouses. One injured critically - needed ambulance taken to Longview Hospital. The other passenger landed several miles from the crash scene and made it to a farmhouse where he got a ride into Kelso - This was his first ride in an airplane. he said "they hung a chute on me, told me what to do, then shoved me out of the plane". His name is Elmer L Taff - he was going home on furlough to Mertzon, TX. He was 23 years old then - maybe he's still around.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #33773 August 22, 2012 I am signing off for the night. I have hung in and tried to see the pain tonight so I am going to take some medication and go to bed. Got a tetanus shot about 6 wks ago and having some REALLY bad problems. I had a tetanus in 2004 along with the Rabies series after being bit by a bat. Then a few wk ago I got what I thought was a snake bite and went to the ER - they gave me another tetanus - for a bite? They should only have give me a booster. In 2004 I developed some problems, but thought it was caused by the rabies series. The problem took over 2 yrs to subside and they kept looking for a neurogical problem. The problem is back and esculated, except this time it involves more than just the lower legs. My arms and back - and tonight the eyes twitching and I can hardly keep my eyes focused on the screen. Facial numbness and pain in the back of my neck and front of my head. Corner of eyeball feel like I was stuck with pin and left is twitching. If a tetanus was called for it should have only been a booster but they gave me the works and only 8 yrs apart. Goodnight!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #33774 August 22, 2012 QuoteI am signing off for the night. I have hung in and tried to see the pain tonight so I am going to take some medication and go to bed. Got a tetanus shot about 6 wks ago and having some REALLY bad problems. I had a tetanus in 2004 along with the Rabies series after being bit by a bat. Then a few wk ago I got what I thought was a snake bite and went to the ER - they gave me another tetanus - for a bite? They should only have give me a booster. In 2004 I developed some problems, but thought it was caused by the rabies series. The problem took over 2 yrs to subside and they kept looking for a neurogical problem. The problem is back and esculated, except this time it involves more than just the lower legs. My arms and back - and tonight the eyes twitching and I can hardly keep my eyes focused on the screen. Facial numbness and pain in the back of my neck and front of my head. If a tetanus was called for it should have only been a booster but they gave me the works and only 8 yrs apart. Goodnight! Any chance that chute could have belonged to Geestman? Or to a woman driving 8 Clydesdales a breast. Breasts that big might require a parachute? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #33775 August 22, 2012 Quote Oh...nylon not silk...yes. If the chute were silk, and it had been buried since either 71 or 45, there would be signs of serious rotting. Silk is biodegradable. Well first, the chute was rather tattered in places. Second, I read that silk garments and tapestries have been unearthed in excavations from ancient civilizations in excellent condition - no raveling or discoloration. Some which had been exposed to the elements. Maybe that was a different kind of silk. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 1356 Next Page 1351 of 2568 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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mrshutter45 21 #33754 August 21, 2012 QuoteQuote"Flight #305 never left the V23 airway the entire time he had them on radar." do you have a map showing V23? V-23 is shown on a number of charts. If you are also interested in the topographical information, then see the standard FAA sectional chart that is used for VFR flying. If you are interested in the actual chart (or at least the navigational information) that the hijacked airliner crew was using during the flight from Seattle to Reno, then take a look at the Low Altitude Enroute IFR chart that is on Sluggo's web page (and brought to you at a cost of several hundred dollars). However, the airliner crew was probably using the Jeppesen version of that chart. Same information but arranged slightly differently. Robert99 I have victor maps and topo with the software, I'll post my map once I get in order here, just got home."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #33755 August 22, 2012 Ummmm, I don't have anything to do with your battle Robert, you have the wrong person! second time you have done this "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #33756 August 22, 2012 QuoteIt was FBI agent Robbie Burroughs who suggested the chute might belong to Lt. Walling. And yes...reporter Casey McNerthney at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. But Burroughs was going along with that theory...and they had already examined the chute. Several of your statements including, but not limited to the one above, do not appear to be accurate if you are basing them on this article. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Suspected-D-B-Cooper-parachute-may-actually-be-1268879.php Read the article again.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #33757 August 22, 2012 Here’s an article published less than a week after the great Amboy discovery with all the pre-selected answers going at it. They are fully aware of the date on the chute and that it isn’t Coopers. No ambiguity there at all: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Suspected-D-B-Cooper-parachute-may-actually-be-1268879.php What we have here is a couple of locals who are hell bent on making this parachute belong to Lt. Walling in spite of all the contrary evidence. Just like Dan Cooper comic books on Shemya or which way the Columbia flows in relation to Paradise Point Park. So utterly blinded by dogma, people can’t see what is patently obvious. So incredibly desperate to tie the chute to Walling that the date of 21 Feb 1946, stamped ON the parachute was, without source or evidence, surmised to be a repack date. Are you kidding me? What possible purpose would a repacking date stamped on a parachute, which is then packed into a container and sealed, possibly serve? Hey Lieutenant Walling, when is that chute due for a re-pack? Hold on while I pull the ripcord, then unravel the canopy, find the date stamped and I will know when it is due for a repack. OK, Lieutenant, that sounds good, I’ll wait over there next to that herd of unicorns while you check to see if your parachute needs repacking. Burroughs said it was possibly Walling’s but they weren’t doing anything with is since it is NOT Cooper’s. She was “shining them on”. Just like being soooo desperate to tie Kenny with a comic book on Shemya which would not be published for several years, these yokels were willing to suspend disbelief and declare a manufacture stamp, a re-pack date. Same silly behaviors by two different people who can’t see the error in their respective approaches, but oh so clearly see it in others. Bizarre. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #33758 August 22, 2012 Right up there with "keep door closed at all times" ??? what ya put a door there for then?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #33759 August 22, 2012 QuoteEarlier, they had taken the word of Earl Cossey that the chute was silk, and not nylon, and THAT was why it couldn't be Cooper's. This claim has been roundly discounted. In any event, Cossey has been named repeatedly as the 'main expert' they consulted on the chute...and he couldn't even tell the difference between silk and first-gen nylon. This does NOT inspire confidence. Look, several of us had reservations about the chute...hey - I still do- but how can you make such sweeping declarations? Roundly discounted by who?? The Citizen's sleuth team who didn't even see it? The date? What and where is the proof (not speculation - proof) that this chute is first gen nylon? I'm not being facetious - maybe I missed it. I know the opinion about the condition, and I know when they stopped mfg silk parachutes...Has anyone that was consulted or seen the actual chute said that it was first-gen nylon?but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #33760 August 22, 2012 QuoteThere are too many negatives and not enough positives to suggest 'creating' a 'new' flight path. Unless you think the placard flew out after the stairs were dropped...and then Rataczak suddenly decided to turn SW. Common sense might prevail over suspect numbers conjured up from a computer flight simulation. Why the hell do you think they concentrated the search around Merwin Lake and just south of there? Because the 305 flight crew didn't know where they were? (*laughs*) I'm not against trying to re-create the flight path using a computer flight simulator program. I am against the idea of trying to alter the known facts. If Kaye says he believes the *generally* accepted flight path works for him...I believe him. IMHO this project would be better off trying to IMPROVE on the accepted flight path, i.e. increase its accuracy, not try to shift it twenty miles to the west. Everyone has a theory on the Tena Bar money. That's a given. I thought it may have floated up there, too...except yes...I had someone tossing it into the water from the wrong direction. But after I did some serious reading and studying on Kaye's results, I go with HIS theory: The money was not in the water, and it arrived there by human hands. (Or as Kaye delicately puts it: 'by non-natural means'. We've been down this road before. But I'm going to bypass the Kaye stuff and give you my own reasons: 1) Possibility #1: Money dropped from the sky during the jump, i.e. hijacker lost it on the way down. An amount roughly equal to three bundles of the cash landed on Tena Bar. Problems with this scenario: Out of 200 bundles of cash, how did three land in the exact same spot? One bundle, maybe. A LOT of the bundles, maybe. But with three, and nothing else being found, no body, no briefcase, no chute, no NOTHING...this is unlikely. They would have scattered all over the sky. If MANY bundles were found, this would be better evidence. In that case, maybe start searching for bag fragments and other evidence. Possibility #2: Cooper was a no pull and he and the money went into the water somewhere...and later three bundles washed up on the shore somehow. Problem with this scenario: Second verse, same as the first. You would have to assume the three bundles had little strings attached to them to keep them together for their happy-happy little trip downriver, where they would have to wash up...wait for it now...TOGETHER at the exact same spot. One bundle, maybe. Lots of bundles, not a chance. There are also Kaye's results saying the money had not been there more than 18 months due to the condition of the rubber bands, and the lack of water damage on the bills. And due to the condition of the bills, we can probably rule out dredging. Scenario #3: Cooper no-pulled right into Tena Bar...a beach landing. Problems with this scenario: Then where the hell did his body and the rest of it go exactly? A search was made that produced nothing. Scenario #4: Money was planted there by a human being in an effort to make the FBI think he was dead, or perhaps someone who was NOT the hijacker came into possession of the money and did it. Problems with this scenario: This is actually the most likely explanation. It would explain the rubber bands, the condition of the bills, and the fact that nothing else was found on site. The real key here is the Number Three. It's a problem for those folks who believe Cooper was a no pull or otherwise died. How exactly can you explain how MORE than one bundle of the cash ended up in the SAME SPOT. This is common-sense. Think about it for a while before you decide to answer. My Completely Off-The-Wall Guess on WHY the Hijacker Would Plant the Bills 18-24 Months Before They Were Discovered: Statute of Limitations, something the hijacker may have been counting on, was bypassed in 1976. Maybe he decided a red herring was now in order to throw off the continued heat from the FBI. If this was his purpose, he succeeded. After the money was discovered, the FBI changed their stance on Cooper: They started saying they believed he died in the jump. If this theory were true, score one for the hijacker. Not sure WHO posted or composed the above, but it is a logical approach. No One supporting any specific subject, just exploring the evidence and the theories. I try - God Knows I Try, but sometime I just can't help myself. If Blevins made the above post then he is finally approaching this objectively. My head hurts to bad focus, but had to make a post.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #33761 August 22, 2012 Placard Do not forget to factor in the winds that night and the card was very light - could have blown miles to the West. Too difficult to function to night, but I am trying to read all of the posts.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #33762 August 22, 2012 QuoteQuoteEarlier, they had taken the word of Earl Cossey that the chute was silk, and not nylon, and THAT was why it couldn't be Cooper's. This claim has been roundly discounted. In any event, Cossey has been named repeatedly as the 'main expert' they consulted on the chute...and he couldn't even tell the difference between silk and first-gen nylon. This does NOT inspire confidence. Look, several of us had reservations about the chute...hey - I still do- but how can you make such sweeping declarations? Roundly discounted by who?? The Citizen's sleuth team who didn't even see it? The date? What and where is the proof (not speculation - proof) that this chute is first gen nylon? I'm not being facetious - maybe I missed it. I know the opinion about the condition, and I know when they stopped mfg silk parachutes...Has anyone that was consulted or seen the actual chute said that it was first-gen nylon? can the number on the chute be traced?? 307551?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #33763 August 22, 2012 I can hardly function right now - please address the question U had and the specific part of the post of whatever I said.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #33764 August 22, 2012 Smokin99, This subject still gives me a headache because the simplest questions always took several iterations thanks to all the anticipation and deflection, rather than a spontaneous and sincere answer. Here’s the research Bruce Smith did on the two back-pack chutes: http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ It seems so simple. Hayden purchased two similar, if not identical emergency aircrew parachutes for his aerobatic flights. Presumably the one Hayden displayed is the one which Cooper left behind which offered some slight clarifications. One being that these were NB-6 ‘type’ chutes and not military as previously published/thought. Sort of like what a Hummer was to a Humvee, I would imagine. Second was the era of manufacture. There is an image which clearly has a manufacture date of April 1957. Nothing close to the Amboy chute date of 1946. So if the Amboy chute was made out of silk, nylon or unicorn mane mattered not, since Cooper’s chute was presumably manufactured a decade later. But hope springs eternal with any error on anyone’s part because this still could be the ‘Golden Ticket’ to the chocolate factory. I gave up in abject disgust once it became obvious that the Amboy chute would not go quietly into the trivia heap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #33765 August 22, 2012 Tom knows all about the program and also thinks it's a good idea, I see this as another tool in this huge argument of finding the truth, many have used calculators, many have counted on there fingers to solve a problem....I thought I would try this and see what happens recreation is a very good tool for any investigator, I would like to re-create the flight path the FBI shows and see if it matches, if does then so be it, I would also like to try different versions and see if anything shakes the tree so to speak. something might give a clue in doing this, once again I just don't know until it's complete, we can sit here a go back and forth about how the flight path can or can not be right for the next 10 years, or we can say, yes it's right because it was re-flown. either way it's a win win if you ask me "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #33766 August 22, 2012 QuoteBasically the wind was from the southwest and the placard was found at an elevation of about 1500 feet above sea level. Check Tom's web site for the information used in the actual calculations and the explanation of the results. This includes the coordinates of the location where the placard was found. Have you ever looked at a REAL map of where that placard was found. Mark it on a REAL map not a flight map and then look at where witnesses where located. Read the witness reports....but, then maybe I am the only one since 1971 to talk to many of these individuals. They were NOT all over the map. The area of the most unusual notices of the plane was NOT in a normal flight path - these witnesses all lived in the areas for yr. Think about Cooper's guiding light! There were NO stars to be seen and little ground - he chose the brightest place within his range and that site put the placard where it was found....West of where he bailed which was not too far very far from Battleground - North East. The FBI was not really too far off with their seach.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #33767 August 22, 2012 Quote Smokin99, This subject still gives me a headache because the simplest questions always took several iterations thanks to all the anticipation and deflection, rather than a spontaneous and sincere answer. Here’s the research Bruce Smith did on the two back-pack chutes: http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ It seems so simple. Hayden purchased two similar, if not identical emergency aircrew parachutes for his aerobatic flights. Presumably the one Hayden displayed is the one which Cooper left behind which offered some slight clarifications. One being that these were NB-6 ‘type’ chutes and not military as previously published/thought. Sort of like what a Hummer was to a Humvee, I would imagine. Second was the era of manufacture. There is an image which clearly has a manufacture date of April 1957. Nothing close to the Amboy chute date of 1946. So if the Amboy chute was made out of silk, nylon or unicorn mane mattered not, since Cooper’s chute was presumably manufactured a decade later. But hope springs eternal with any error on anyone’s part because this still could be the ‘Golden Ticket’ to the chocolate factory. I gave up in abject disgust once it became obvious that the Amboy chute would not go quietly into the trivia heap. lol..unicorn mane... Thanks. I forgot about Hayden's chutes. This thread has been kinda bonkers for a spell and I kind of lost interest for a while. The whole parachute thing has always made me wanta "say what??" anyway. Cossey, Hayden, the other guy from Issaquah (sp?) that was featured in an article, varying accounts from the day - all different takes on the parachutes. I guess a parachute buried in the ground in Cooperland is just so intriguing...it's hard not to be afflicted with Golden ticketitis. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #33768 August 22, 2012 QuoteI have trouble with the planting scenario, the where and the way it was found doesn't lend itself to the theory. Wouldn't a 'planting' be more obvious and in a place it 'surely' would be eventually found? -burying it in the sand is throwing money away to me. Was there NOT a small shed up under the trees on the Fazio property in 1971 and in 1979. Could have been a small storage shed or an out house - it was not there in 2001 when I was in WA. The money was found just a few feet from approximately where this little building was and not too far from the gate. I have never seen a report on the find that indicates a small building of some sort used be back a few feet to the north and to the west of the money location. Does anyone know how to find the answer to this question? Probably not! Perhaps someone who knows how to contact Mr. Fazio might be able to field this question to him or perhaps it has been answered in the past.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #33769 August 22, 2012 QuoteBut the money did find its way to Tena Bar. I don't think it floated down the Columbia River, I don't think it walked in by itself, and I don't think someone deliberately buried it there. That narrows the possibilities down to about a single one. Robert99 You and a lot of people ARE wrong - it was buried there! Another site was not too far from a green tank East of the Bridge to Portland and East of a park built there prior to 1980, but not sure it was completed. Another way it could have reached Tena Bar was from the rear of the Red Lion just West of the old bridge.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #33770 August 22, 2012 QuoteTo clear up another point that you haven't asked yet, the location of the town of Toutle is not the same on the 1971 and present day maps. There was an extensive discussion about this on this thread several months ago. Farflung resolved the problem by showing what happens when you move the town of Toutle 2 or 3 miles west on the old maps. For more information, check the thread. This should not cause any problems with the placard discussion or calculations with the possible exception of the references of where the placard was found with respect to Toutle. WGS84 maps and GPS coordinates were used in the placard calculations. Robert99 If you could repeat those maps in an overlay old versus current, I would appreciate it since I do NOT go to other sites and do NOT remember Farflung doing this. Thank you. Jo Weber.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #33771 August 22, 2012 QuotePlacard Do not forget to factor in the winds that night and the card was very light - could have blown miles to the West. Too difficult to function to night, but I am trying to read all of the posts. Jo, Please read the following carefully. The winds were factored in. The winds were from the SOUTHWEST and would have blown the placard to the NORTHEAST. That apparently happened. There is nothing to indicate that the winds would blow the placard to the WEST. Please read the placard information on Tom Kaye's web page. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #33772 August 22, 2012 Quotecan the number on the chute be traced?? 307551? No but I looked in my old clippings and did find an article about a B52 that went down in the general area in 47. About 10 miles southwest of kelso? How close is that to the parachute find? Pilot and co-pilot were killed. Two passengers parachuted out. Both got help from people in nearby farmhouses. One injured critically - needed ambulance taken to Longview Hospital. The other passenger landed several miles from the crash scene and made it to a farmhouse where he got a ride into Kelso - This was his first ride in an airplane. he said "they hung a chute on me, told me what to do, then shoved me out of the plane". His name is Elmer L Taff - he was going home on furlough to Mertzon, TX. He was 23 years old then - maybe he's still around.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #33773 August 22, 2012 I am signing off for the night. I have hung in and tried to see the pain tonight so I am going to take some medication and go to bed. Got a tetanus shot about 6 wks ago and having some REALLY bad problems. I had a tetanus in 2004 along with the Rabies series after being bit by a bat. Then a few wk ago I got what I thought was a snake bite and went to the ER - they gave me another tetanus - for a bite? They should only have give me a booster. In 2004 I developed some problems, but thought it was caused by the rabies series. The problem took over 2 yrs to subside and they kept looking for a neurogical problem. The problem is back and esculated, except this time it involves more than just the lower legs. My arms and back - and tonight the eyes twitching and I can hardly keep my eyes focused on the screen. Facial numbness and pain in the back of my neck and front of my head. Corner of eyeball feel like I was stuck with pin and left is twitching. If a tetanus was called for it should have only been a booster but they gave me the works and only 8 yrs apart. Goodnight!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #33774 August 22, 2012 QuoteI am signing off for the night. I have hung in and tried to see the pain tonight so I am going to take some medication and go to bed. Got a tetanus shot about 6 wks ago and having some REALLY bad problems. I had a tetanus in 2004 along with the Rabies series after being bit by a bat. Then a few wk ago I got what I thought was a snake bite and went to the ER - they gave me another tetanus - for a bite? They should only have give me a booster. In 2004 I developed some problems, but thought it was caused by the rabies series. The problem took over 2 yrs to subside and they kept looking for a neurogical problem. The problem is back and esculated, except this time it involves more than just the lower legs. My arms and back - and tonight the eyes twitching and I can hardly keep my eyes focused on the screen. Facial numbness and pain in the back of my neck and front of my head. If a tetanus was called for it should have only been a booster but they gave me the works and only 8 yrs apart. Goodnight! Any chance that chute could have belonged to Geestman? Or to a woman driving 8 Clydesdales a breast. Breasts that big might require a parachute? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #33775 August 22, 2012 Quote Oh...nylon not silk...yes. If the chute were silk, and it had been buried since either 71 or 45, there would be signs of serious rotting. Silk is biodegradable. Well first, the chute was rather tattered in places. Second, I read that silk garments and tapestries have been unearthed in excavations from ancient civilizations in excellent condition - no raveling or discoloration. Some which had been exposed to the elements. Maybe that was a different kind of silk. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
