DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Those C-130's making noise, that is the sound of freedom.

Matt

So they are old C-130's! I got a call from the base asking me some questions. I explained the elevation of my house being one of the highest in the area where they are conducting the manuevers.

I gave the elevation of the land and my home and trees (approx height by number of stories). There are some larger homes BUT, they sit lower on the elevation level than I do. I reminded them of another incident in the last 4 yrs and if the start up had not happened when it did - it would have hit the trees and perhaps the tops of some homes. As it was it made a turblence with the trees in my front yard...causing small branches in the top and acorns to rain down....debris such as one would pick up after a T2 storm.

So do you want to buy my house?
Would you want your children living here if a trainee came in too low and they were doing what ever manuever they were doing - (drop and start is all I know to call it). If you are a father and a home owner - your answer is ?

I am supposed to sacrifice my home for the sake of YOUR war?
Training should be monitored and safety taken into consideration. I live near 5 bases and many of my other homes in the past have also been near training fields...so I am not newbie to having training flights go over my home. One was the home I lived in with Weber near a copter training field. They had constantly warned one guy about coming in to close, but he seemed to have a problem! He was taken off duty after he incurred several complaints...I was not the first and I never am.

Like many others I worked and was NOT home all of the time, so hearing complaints from other neighbors was not a concern until I witnessed an incident. Then I too made a complaint.

There is a law about being to close to homes with private planes and airlines - does this NOT apply to the military? Understandably if you buy a home near a base or airport you know if you are in the path (disclosure is a key word in the real estate market).

According to you - with your reply those of us who live in these training flight paths are just supposed to accept it as a necessity to continue wars we do NOT even need to be involved in.

OK, Guys, Sorry! Matthew Cline's reply pissed me off. Again I will ask him. MatthewCline do you have children and do you want your children in this house when a trainee makes a fatal mistake.

If your answer is YES - I expect a military individual to buy my home and not at the prices homes are selling for around here. I expect to get at least what I paided for it in 1999 after Realtor Fees, moving costs and other expenses. Even that won't buy me another "much smaller" home...in another area that has no beaches or fishing or bays or near a golf course. Note: New home to be in a safe secured neighborhood with no thru streets and with restrictions.

One bay is 1 mile to the North and the other bay is South 1.5 miles. The Gulf is 2 miles - a hidden treasure with 13 miles of undeveloped shore lines and a mecca for the turtles and other wild-life.

The back of my home is a small lake or pond with lots of wild life. My home does NOT back up to another house. Privacy is important to me. I had the nicest lawn in the neighborhood - but now it is falling to neglect caused by my health. The shrubs and beds are no longer manicured and I can no longer plant flower or pull weeds.

I depend on what I can pay a lawn man to do. He keeps it mowed every 10 days and trims the shrubs twice a yr. But in FL it takes time and love and money to keep a yard looking the way I kept it. I miss my flowers and weed free yard and manicured shrubs. I spent hours out in the yard every wk until the last 2 yrs. Now I can't do it anymore. I still have fewer weeds than others - because I know what to put down and when to put it down. The yard is the thickest and most lush in the neighborhood - because I instruct the lawn man when to put this or that down.

I depend on someone else NOW to do in 1hr what I did many hours per wk - but it is not their home and it is just a job for them. A beautiful lawn takes LOVE and good health and lots of time in the sun and getting dirty.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[matthewcline 0]

Your post is laughable. Typical of your off topic rants.

You can't get what you paid, is called the economy as brought to you by the past and current POTUS and their friends in Congress.

Your other questions have been answered many times, so I won't waist my time again.

Just spoke to A1C Taylor, those C-130's are the newer ones, "J" models and the one Gen previous for the Talons and Specter's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Eglin_Air_Force_Base

Wow, do you really over react to a standard little joke, even posted on a few bases Welcome signs.

Now, lets get back to putting Weber on the plane, and see if he still gets credit for being a Felon.

I have actually hoped you would be right, but the lack of evidence, just hasn't made it that final stretch yet.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Your post is laughable. Typical of your off topic rants.

You can't get what you paid, is called the economy as brought to you by the past and current POTUS and their friends in Congress.
Matt

I do NOT TYPICALLY get off Topic and YOU know that!

Excuse me the plane that went over was NOT a NEW plane. It was not a jet, but a 4 prop plane
and ANY plane (private or commercial or military) LOW enough to see the props turning and the rivets IS TOO LOW. Any plane low enough to cause TREE disturbance in Residential areas is TOO LOW!

If I was within in 3 miles of the airstrips - I could not complain as one knows planes descend in order to land. I live 13 miles from the base. NO REASON to be as low as it was that FAR from base or over heavily populated areas. The COMBAT TALON is how the plane appeared - my close up view was from the belly underside.

As for my home - it was BEFORE the economy went BOOM! A home built in 1999 was reasonable. For instance - a home built for 200K in 1999 was worth 300K plus in 2007. Now a home home bought in 1999 for 200K will only fetch 150K...if one is lucky!

YOU know NOTHING about REAL ESTATE! Remember this I AM a retired REAL ESTATE agent and I am BLAMED for the testing being so difficult - because I basically ACED the test....still introduced as the WOMAN who made acquiring a licencse in FL very very tough.

So I am off TOPIC. How many others go off TOPIC - and I am one who usually STAYS on Topic even when other drift off into OTHER areas. GO back and READ this thread from it origin and YOU will FIND this to be true.

Now IF U consider my discussing WEBER as being OFF Topic, let me assure you Weber and any Cooper conversation is NOT off Topic.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

The silence on the thread - for the last few days is deafening!

THE FBI has repeatedly stated:
Put a Suspect ON the plane! The thread has often stated - Put Weber on the Plane.

Note a few posts back I offered up what I had - in order to do this. NOT one person responded.
This is when things went SILENT among those who may be in possession of confidential information provided by the FBI.

It WAS NOT the 1st time I did this. Maybe it was just the Labor Day weekend vacations and back to school or maybe NO one CARES anymore. YOU THINK!

The SILENCE BOMB seem to drop with the annoucement of Gray's paper back coming out.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Excuse me the plane that went over was NOT a NEW plane. It was not a jet, but a 4 prop plane
and ANY plane (private or commercial or military) LOW enough to see the props turning and the rivets IS TOO LOW. Any plane low enough to cause TREE disturbance in Residential areas is TOO LOW!

Jo, YOU need to start reading the posts on the thread before dashing off a reply.

Matt told you in plain English that his friend at Elgin said that the C-130s there were the "J" model, which were manufactured within just the past few years.

You only need to worry about the airplane if the propellers aren't turning. And you did not see the rivets on the aircraft unless you have much better vision than the renowned Jane, or whatever her name is, claims she has.

Also, you need to learn a bit about how to estimate altitude and to learn the difference between the downwash from an aircraft and a normal slightly breezy afternoon from normal causes.

Robert99

[BobKnoss 0]

Quote

The silence on the thread - for the last few days is deafening!

THE FBI has repeatedly stated:
Put a Suspect ON the plane! The thread has often stated - Put Weber on the Plane.

Note a few posts back I offered up what I had - in order to do this. NOT one person responded.
This is when things went SILENT among those who may be in possession of confidential information provided by the FBI.

It WAS NOT the 1st time I did this. Maybe it was just the Labor Day weekend vacations and back to school or maybe NO one CARES anymore. YOU THINK!

The SILENCE BOMB seem to drop with the annoucement of Gray's paper back coming out.

Fact is that BOB KNOSS has grown sick of your childish banter. No Bob, no activity. I control the horizontal. I control the vertical. Duane Weber was Dan Cooper and the was trained by TOG for Project Norjak. Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr. was Duane's custodian assigned by the Pentagon to Nick O'Hara who was in charge of the Project. Like I said before. That's the way it was. Bite me. Your benevolent Government at it's best. "For the better good!"

[mrshutter45 21]

stop acting like you think you know what truth is about Bob!


Bob, your lying again!.....July 10, 2012 Bob says this, "I may not be able to build a radio, but I was able to sit in the plane and watch NW pilot David Haapala fly his Mooney Executive dead nuts to Devil's Lake airport from Minneapolis by radio signals. Dave now owns an aircraft communications company"

I looked him up and found that he did not own the company you said he had and found that he was a college buddy!

March 28, 2012 you then said this about a "David Haapla (see pic)

there is no mention of a "Bernie Haapala on this thread! you are trying to twist things again Bob because you are cornered! I found no Bernie Haapala with the FAA, there is a Bernie Haapala who was in his 90's who died not to long ago! Dave Haapala Father!

knowing Dave Haapala explains a lot about what you think you know and what you have made it into by changing what he has probably told you in the past and you put your little twist on everything from what he told you just like what you do here after reading something!

tell me where did you come up with the name Bernie Haapala, not from me? and once again you bring up something that I didn't ask you about in order to divert the questions asked of you! you can go back page after page and not see anything about a Bernie Haapala? so why did you bring this name up?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

Bob, I spoke with someone about a week ago who would like more understanding of involvement to the hijacking, could you please start from the beginning about Nick O'hara's role in this Government cover up? since you are using these names and not thinking about liable I thought it would only be fare for me to contact the ones still alive so they could respond to your accusations! it's only fare because you seem to want to correct everyone else so why not let them confirm what you say...right?

this is separate from Mr Squartino who was wanting to talk with you about your story that you only want to tell on a parachute thread????????

two weeks ago you made this claim...." It is a crime to lie to the FBI. Why would I risk that penalty without purpose? "

I thought you among others agreed Marla was lying about her story? didn't she go to the FBI, why didn't they lock her up?

your tactics are very similar to those used in Politics by carefully wording things or changing the story in order to divert, so I think it's time to bring you to the table Bob

Remember! it's not my job to research your story as much as it is your problem proving it's true, your wife told me a entirely different story a year ago, she don't remember I'm sure and good luck finding that out but it sure was funny hearing what she said about your lifestyle change since your Father died, sad but she was right!

FYI, you can stop saying TOG, we all know you are talking about Bill Rataczak which was confirmed through the PM to Matt, even when you look back on the pages you referred to TOG as Bill but didn't give his last name until the Matt incident

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[matthewcline 0]

You sure do get wound up when proven wrong on some thing.

Eglin was there before you. The C-130 is an old MODEL DESIGN, but the USAF SOC Planes are the newest C-130's.

You assume a lot of what people know and are educated in as you brag about your exploits, good for you, you aced the test. And since you're the premier Real Estate Agent, you know this market and my statement about it and your homes worth are not wrong. Not my or Eglin AFB's fault.

Still need proof of Duane's Training, and where-a-bouts, and putting him on the plane, so far it is just stuff on a web page, and we know how that adds up as evidence in your mind.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Robert99 50]

Quote

NOTE: The last three pictures I posted are of the Buddy Holly plane crash. They are only known color photos, and I had to pay for their use.

Blevins, Your explanation of the reason(s) for the Holly plane crash won't fly.

Using the numbers and other information you give, the pilot was relatively inexperienced in instrument flying. However, you need to demonstrate to an FAA examiner that you can fly on instruments before you get the rating.

The pilot apparently had not received an appropriate weather briefing and may not have had adequate instrumentation in the aircraft. You do not state when his last flight under instrument flying conditions was made.

But don't blame it on the artifical horizon which is, or was, a secondary instrument for instrument flying. The primary instrument for telling the pilot if he was in level flight or climbing or descending was the altimeter. The rate-of-climb instrument serves as a back-up to the altimeter in that respect.

The altimeter and rate-of-climb indicator operate off the aircraft's static pressure port. The airspeed also uses the static pressure port as well as the pitot pressure port. These two pressure ports must be keep clear of ice, rain, and other obstructions in order to operate correctly.

Therefore, the aircraft in question would need a pitot heater to be realistically considered equipped for instrument flying. If the static pressure port is not heated and there in no other installed alternate static port, then one of the pressure instruments, preferably the rate-of-climb indicator, can become an emergency static port by breaking the glass in the instrument.

Presumably, the above information would have been part of the pilot's training for instrument flight.

If there was anything wrong with the pressure ports or system, the pilot should have known it by the time he retracted the landing gear. He could have then made a simple visual circle of the airport and landed.

In any event, even if it was not working properly, the artifical horizon was not responsible for this accident.

The probable cause(s) all comes down to "pilot error" of one kind or another.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Quote

NOTE: The last three pictures I posted are of the Buddy Holly plane crash. They are only known color photos, and I had to pay for their use.

Blevins, Your explanation of the reason(s) for the Holly plane crash won't fly.

Using the numbers and other information you give, the pilot was relatively inexperienced in instrument flying. However, you need to demonstrate to an FAA examiner that you can fly on instruments before you get the rating.

The pilot apparently had not received an appropriate weather briefing and may not have had adequate instrumentation in the aircraft. You do not state when his last flight under instrument flying conditions was made.

But don't blame it on the artifical horizon which is, or was, a secondary instrument for instrument flying. The primary instrument for telling the pilot if he was in level flight or climbing or descending was the altimeter. The rate-of-climb instrument serves as a back-up to the altimeter in that respect.

The altimeter and rate-of-climb indicator operate off the aircraft's static pressure port. The airspeed also uses the static pressure port as well as the pitot pressure port. These two pressure ports must be keep clear of ice, rain, and other obstructions in order to operate correctly.

Therefore, the aircraft in question would need a pitot heater to be realistically considered equipped for instrument flying. If the static pressure port is not heated and there in no other installed alternate static port, then one of the pressure instruments, preferably the rate-of-climb indicator, can become an emergency static port by breaking the glass in the instrument.

Presumably, the above information would have been part of the pilot's training for instrument flight.

If there was anything wrong with the pressure ports or system, the pilot should have known it by the time he retracted the landing gear. He could have then made a simple visual circle of the airport and landed.

In any event, even if it was not working properly, the artifical horizon was not responsible for this accident.

The probable cause(s) all comes down to "pilot error" of one kind or another.

Robert99

you are correct 99, the last time I checked this story with the FAA I believe pilot error was a factor as well as instrumentation, the pilot should have never taken off that evening.

added....Probable Cause

The Board determines that he probably cause of this accident was the pilot's unwise decision to embark on a flight which would necessitate flying solely by instruments when he was not properly certificated or qualified to do so. Contributing factors were serious deficiencies in the weather briefing, and the pilot's unfamiliarity with the instrument which determines the attitude of the aircraft.

By the Civil Aeronautics Board: James R. Dupree/ Chan Gurney/Harmar D. Denny/ G. Joseph Minetti/ Louis J. Hector

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Skyjack 71 says in part:

Quote

'The silence on the thread - for the last few days is deafening!

The SILENCE BOMB seem to drop with the annoucement of Gray's paper back coming out...'

It's not the paperback version of Gray's book that is causing people to fall silent here. Everyone who posts here regularly has probably either read the book, or knows the basic content of Skyjack.

One of the reasons is because some folks here believe it is THEIR voices alone, THEIR opinions, are all that matters. Some have been studying the Cooper case for years, and think they know everything about it. And in some ways, they do. They can quote you the basic known facts without missing a beat. But if you ask them, "Well, who WAS D.B. Cooper?" they can't say because they don't know. Big club. I don't know, either.

Others believe that a certain suspect is the ONLY suspect. And I think some people don't really want to know what happened, or who Cooper really was. This way, the legend lives on. Bigfoot is real, maybe we didn't REALLY go to the Moon, and the US government made a deal with the aliens after Roswell to keep the bodies, as long as the government looked the other way on the occasional abduction.
Geoff Gray won't post at Dropzone (*probably*) because he doesn't want to deal with the nuts. That's not a quote, just a guess. Galen Cook uses proxies to message us at Dropzone because he doesn't want to face the hard questions. That's an opinion.

One of the reasons I'm not obsessed with the Cooper case (although for a while I was getting there LOL) is because I think there are bigger things than a 41-year-old unsolved hijacking case. For example, this Saturday I'm meeting the Democratic candidate for Washington state governor, Jay Inslee. I actually get a few questions, and he's agreed to accept a one-page document I created on suggestions to improve the juvenile justice system here. THAT to me is more important than Cooper.

Since this isn't a political discussion, I will only say this once: I'm a registered Democrat and I support Obama for another term as President. I guess I should...LOL...I wrote about 60 frickin' articles during the last election about him and founded Publishers and Authors for Obama at the 2008 site. We raised $29,000 for the campaign. Only fifty bucks was my money. All these other people just joined and it just started adding up. I am proud of that effort. Whether Obama is suited for the job is important, but something else is more important. Never buy into a political message that tries to get your vote by using fear, hatred, or racism. Enough about that.

There is too much satire here that makes no sense. Long, involved posts with veiled satirical hints don't really make a point. Straight-up cartoons on different subjects or characters regarding the case DO make a point. Or valid points backed with at least of modicum of evidence. Insults to a poster simply for posting anything at all do NOT make a point. Showing flaws in an argument using logic, or asking questions DO make a point.

The negative things I listed are, IMHO, much of the reason this thread goes silent, or accomplishes little.

NOTE: The last three pictures I posted are of the Buddy Holly plane crash. They are only known color photos, and I had to pay for their use. I did it for THIS, which has been viewed more than 100,000 times since 2008.

ahhh Democrat....there is your whole problem right there personally I think both sides are fools and consider myself Independent.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

Quote

added....Probable Cause

The Board determines that he probably cause of this accident was the pilot's unwise decision to embark on a flight which would necessitate flying solely by instruments when he was not properly certificated or qualified to do so.

This plainly states that the pilot did not have an instrument rating in the first place.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Quote

added....Probable Cause

The Board determines that he probably cause of this accident was the pilot's unwise decision to embark on a flight which would necessitate flying solely by instruments when he was not properly certificated or qualified to do so.

This plainly states that the pilot did not have an instrument rating in the first place.

Found this a little disturbing....Peterson (pilot) 21 years old was a pilot about 4 years, had a hearing problem and was known to panic on night flights!! how the hell this guy was flying was beyond me.

Robert99

it's sad we lost three greats that evening which also could have been Waylon Jennings who lost the coin toss and took the bus that night... just added, I was mistaken Jennings was replaced by the big bopper because he had the flu and wanted to fly, Anderson and Valens coin tossed.


Found this a little disturbing....Peterson (pilot) 21 years old was a pilot about 4 years, had a hearing problem and was known to panic on night flights!! are you kidding me!

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Quote

added....Probable Cause

The Board determines that he probably cause of this accident was the pilot's unwise decision to embark on a flight which would necessitate flying solely by instruments when he was not properly certificated or qualified to do so.

This plainly states that the pilot did not have an instrument rating in the first place.

Found this a little disturbing....Peterson (pilot) 21 years old was a pilot about 4 years, had a hearing problem and was known to panic on night flights!! how the hell this guy was flying was beyond me.

Robert99

it's sad we lost three greats that evening which also could have been Waylon Jennings who lost the coin toss and took the bus that night... just added, I was mistaken Jennings was replaced by the big bopper because he had the flu and wanted to fly, Anderson and Valens coin tossed.


Found this a little disturbing....Peterson (pilot) 21 years old was a pilot about 4 years, had a hearing problem and was known to panic on night flights!! are you kidding me!

This happened in our back yard, so to speak.
There is a yearly celebration of life here. Always
well attended. 99's and your facts are in agreement
here, and well known. We had Obama here today
in the Pentacrest, Coach Hayden Fry-fest (50,000
attended that in Coralville), plus ISU/UI pre-game
today at Kinnick. Total zoo here - streets closed -
I80 and I380 backed up for miles ... organised
chaos that all went well...

nice day in the neighborhood.

I (we) have some new research to share and will
asap. One party is thinking about coming here to
join in on this - so waiting on that decision.

G.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

You only need to worry about the airplane if the propellers aren't turning. And you did not see the rivets on the aircraft unless you have much better vision than the renowned Jane, or whatever her name is, claims she has.

Also, you need to learn a bit about how to estimate altitude and to learn the difference between the downwash from an aircraft and a normal slightly breezy afternoon from normal causes.

Robert99

Well, I am not going to argue with someone that was NOT here to see it. I was NOT the only complaint and I was NOT the only one to feel it was TOO close.

I do NOT know what "model" it was and that is not relevant. The fact that it WAS TOO low is. I could see the panels - and the one that came in too low a few yrs ago did cause turblence to the tree tops. It was NOT as low this time as it was several yrs ago.

Right now I have better thing to do than argue with a person who was NOT here.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

You only need to worry about the airplane if the propellers aren't turning. And you did not see the rivets on the aircraft unless you have much better vision than the renowned Jane, or whatever her name is, claims she has.

Also, you need to learn a bit about how to estimate altitude and to learn the difference between the downwash from an aircraft and a normal slightly breezy afternoon from normal causes.

Robert99

Well, I am not going to argue with someone that was NOT here to see it. I was NOT the only complaint and I was NOT the only one to feel it was TOO close.

I do NOT know what "model" it was and that is not relevant. The fact that it WAS TOO low is. I could see the panels - and the one that came in too low a few yrs ago did cause turblence to the tree tops. It was NOT as low this time as it was several yrs ago.

Right now I have better thing to do than argue with a person who was NOT here.

Jo...............Dear...................chillax

USAF SO has it covered...I have been on those birds out of AF 9.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C-130_Hercules_crashes

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

Quote

You only need to worry about the airplane if the propellers aren't turning. And you did not see the rivets on the aircraft unless you have much better vision than the renowned Jane, or whatever her name is, claims she has.

Also, you need to learn a bit about how to estimate altitude and to learn the difference between the downwash from an aircraft and a normal slightly breezy afternoon from normal causes.

Robert99

Well, I am not going to argue with someone that was NOT here to see it. I was NOT the only complaint and I was NOT the only one to feel it was TOO close.

I do NOT know what "model" it was and that is not relevant. The fact that it WAS TOO low is. I could see the panels - and the one that came in too low a few yrs ago did cause turblence to the tree tops. It was NOT as low this time as it was several yrs ago.

Right now I have better thing to do than argue with a person who was NOT here.

Jo...............Dear...................chillax

USAF SO has it covered...I have been on those birds out of AF 9.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C-130_Hercules_crashes

Jo, Take Amazon's advice and relax.

Just yesterday you were claiming that you could see the rivets in the airframe. Now you are claiming you could see the "panels". I don't know what you consider a "panel" to be, but in real life it is much larger than a rivet. Did you back away from the aircraft?

Check out all the C-130 crashes at the link that Amazon provides. Despite the high attrition rates, there are at least 100 older C-130s in storage at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson. So we are not going to run out of C-130s in the next week or so.

Robert99

[georger 244]

Jo, Take Amazon's advice and relax.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

I (we) have some new research to share and will
asap. One party is thinking about coming here to
join in on this - so waiting on that decision.

G.

Your post was a little vague - didn't know if it was about Cooper or whatever.

I only came to the thread tonight to make an announcement. I have received NO response from the FBI on anything I have mentioned in this thread nor do they even acknowdge anything I say - ready to launch some activity I hope will produce some results.

I am NOT going to sit here and do the nothing - NOT one more day. I am accomplishing NOTHING on this thread, so I will do what I do best - seek out and go to the people who CAN help me. This means I have to make a public fool out of myself again, but I hope not.

There are SPECIFIC things about WEBER's Past I requested from the FBI - so I will take these one by one and ATTACK in any way I can. Look out Oklahoma and Nebraska Tornata Jo is on the way.

The FBI has banked on my dieing before I could prove anything that might prove the FBI was shoveling CRAP to the public regarding Cooper and the past of Weber. NO, I am not going public in the way you guys might imagine. I am beyond making a spectacle of myself, but if I can prove just ONE thing I have told the FBI about Weber's past - then that alone will get the attention of the public and then the FBI will need to explain WHY they miss this one thing. Something I begged CARR and prior agents to investigate and something they could have done with NO problem at all...even in 1998 before they sent me a letter dismissing Duane based on "finger prints".

J0 needs answers to some simple things she has put before the FBI in the last 17 yrs and she intends to TRY!

SO WHAT! Everyone thinks I am a NUT and OFF my rocker anyway.
Ever seen an OLD woman get mad and make her last stand? Well, as I said I compare it to a tornado (which will probably blow itselfs out without doing any damage - by damage I mean not being productive). AT least I will have DONE all I could DO to get the FBI to take a simple look see into certain aspects of the past of the man I knew as Duane L. Weber.

Duane L. Weber lived a good life from 1977 until his death in 1996, so it is NOT Duane L. Weber's past, but the past of John C. Collins...that needs answers. The FBI did NOT even check into the drivers license Duane Weber managed to obtain in 1990 nor investigate WHY he needed that ID. Carr dissed me on this as did other agents.

Because Carr nor the other agents would NOT look into this aspect, I will get the information the only way I know how. I could NOT prove I was the widow of John C. Collins and the FBI refused to give me the information I needed to do so - the JEFFERSON file. It may be too late, but I am going to try!

Oh by the WAY I won't need the Jefferson file the FBI so astutely prevented me from obtaining - there is a BACK DOOR! Might be to late to use this "tool" , but at this stage something is better than nothing! I don't have the money or the time to go through the legal process....which I could not do without the Jefferson file.

The Jefferson file was the only proof available Duane L. Weber and John C. Collins were one and the same.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Farflung 0]

Mr. Science, I enjoy reading fiction to the point of creating the stuff out of available facts. I think that aircraft engines won’t run in conditions of icing, and that Waylon Jennings lost a coin flip and didn’t fly with Buddy Holly and the Big Bopper when their plane crashed. How am I doing and what more can be added to the lore Mr. Science? Signed- History Molester.


Thank you for your endless service in the perversion and destruction of accurate information, History Molester; Mr. Science thinks he can offer some help.

Your first assertion that icing will affect an engine’s performance is exquisitely inaccurate. Of course there is carburetor icing, which will hamper performance but most are thinking structural icing during February snow storms in Iowa, at least Mr. Science is thinking that, at least I’m thinking. Ice simply accumulates on the airfoil and will reduce lift or make the plane overweight all the while the engine can be producing maximum horsepower.

The coin toss did not involve Waylon Jennings at all. Mr. Science understands that Richie Valens asked the Cricket named Tommy Allsup for his seat on the plane, and settled it with a coin toss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r4_8pjJPxo&list=LPJY08sjRmXDs&index=1&feature=plcp

Mr. Science is endlessly amazed at how stories are manipulated and morphed via poor record keeping, lack of attention to detail or full frontal, unashamed incompetence.

The magical tour call the “Winter Dance Party” is what Mr. Science would label an epic, non-stop, pooch screwing with lashings of blind stupidity. Mr. Science looked at the itinerary and is convinced it was scheduled by one of the expert map readers from this very thread, as there is nothing resembling logic, reason or the slightest hint of efficiency of movement. Mr. Science senses that someone’s loser friend or relative was hired to schedule the tour locations (‘Surf’ Ballroom in Iowa….. Moorhead Armory?).

The day before the crash, the drummer Carl Bunch was hospitalized with what may have been frostbite from a broken bus heater. Mr. Science knows that the companion to incompetence is always the opposite of quality. Along with a mind bending route, during winter in the Midwest, a couple of decrepit busses were rented for the tour and were incapable of producing heat or being repaired. The solution was to fly to the winter haven of Fargo, North Dakota, and arrive around 3 AM because that’s when everything is guaranteed to be closed. Rather than spending the night in a competently heated motel room, then departing the next morning, a marginal decision was made and facilitated by some supporting players who could have pulled the plug at any time. Mr. Science has noticed that the ‘root cause’ of most aircraft crashes, is away from the airplane and hours earlier. Mr. Science wonders (not) what the body clock of a 21 year old from Iowa would be doing on the average evening, around midnight? Considering the ad hoc nature of the charter, Mr. Science is hard pressed to believe that the commercial pilot received adequate crew rest and this exacerbated his vulnerability to vertigo (special disorientation).

Mr. Science does questions why no one has ever investigated just what sort of music was being performed that night. Here’s a direct quote of the disturbing lyrics:

“All of my love
All of my kissin'
You don't know what you've been a-missin'
Oh boy, when you're with me
Oh boy, the world can see
That you, were meant, for me”

Mr. Science has supplied many facts which can be warped and mutated to the point, that what happened that night can be crafted into a total work of fiction. So enjoy all the fodder History Molester as I look forward to your future works. In the mean time, if you ever need a logical, simple and honest answer you can always, ask Mr. Science!

[skyjack71 0]

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Just yesterday you were claiming that you could see the rivets in the airframe. Now you are claiming you could see the "panels". I don't know what you consider a "panel" to be, but in real life it is much larger than a rivet. Did you back away from the aircraft?

PANELS AND RIVETS - I do NOT know the technical names but those panels that you see riveted all around on the bottom of the planes. Hell if I could see the props - I could see the damn plane panels and rivets! This is when I wish I had a phone with a camera. A lot of good that would do - I have a problem figuring out simple things about a simple phone - like how to erase messages. I just hand it to a kid and tell him to erase the messages because I do not open them anyway.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 50]

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The Buddy Holly crash has been studied extensively since it happened more than fifty years ago. Today, many people believe that the Sperry F-3 Gyro had a hand in the accident somehow.

Pilot Peterson had passed his written exam for instruments, but had not been certified, although he did have some time on instruments. Attached is a portion of the CAB report, done as a GIF image.

I have the complete report in PDF, but I don't think I can actually attach it at DZ.

Note near the bottom of the extract where the CAB also mentions the gyro. Admittedly, there is more than one school of thought on what caused the crash. There was no icing, and the engine was running at cruise when it hit the ground, so this rules out engine failure.

And why didn't Peterson notice from the altimeter that they were decending at fifty feet per second? And why was he in the middle of a right turn? One school thinks he simply wasn't watching the altimeter, but relying more on the Sperry, since he may have believed (from the Sperry) that they were ascending anyway. This theory is the most popular. One thing that is almost certain is that no one in that aircraft could see anything by looking out the windows. Too dark, snow, no ground lights, etc.

Basically put, there are too many causes of the accident to list here. But I don't think you can blame the Sperry artifical horizon simply because the pilot didn't have any experience with it.

In today's phrasing, this would be described as a "controlled [more or less controlled, anyway] flight into the terrain".

Fifty feet per second is 3000 feet per minute that the aircraft was descending at impact. That is a high rate of descent for that type of aircraft. Unless the pilot reduced engine power, the airspeed would be increasing rapidly, the noise level going up real fast, etc..

The pilot simply lost "spatial orientation" [a term Farflung mentions in an earlier post]. He apparently fixated on the artifical horizon and neglected to cross-check his other instruments. The end result was that he didn't know what the airplane was doing.

It doesn't make any difference if they could not see the ground, lights on the ground, or anything at all outside the aircraft. If you are going to fly on instruments then the ones you need to use are the ones on the instrument panel.

Robert99

[Farflung 0]

Ahem.

[georger 244]

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Dear Mr Science: I never said the engine was subject to icing, although I suppose if the weather was cold enough it could have affected the carb. I said it was a MYTH. (See quote)

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'The biggest myth (although it's easily debunked by the official Civil Aeronautics Board report) was that the fuel line in the Beechcraft Bonanza froze in the cold weather, causing the plane to lose power and crash. Another story is that ice formed on the wings and brought down the plane. This isn't true, of course, since the engine was running at normal cruising revolutions when it struck the ground, and no evidence of icing was found...'

Never said Waylon was the coin-tosser in the article, either. I don't even mention the coin toss. I merely put up a link to a YouTube video at the end of the article where Tommy Allsup discusses the coin flip with Valens. The reason I put up a photo of Waylon Jennings and Holly onstage was simply because I liked the pic of the two of them together.

Robert99 disagrees with himself:

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'Basically put, there are too many causes of the accident to list here. But I don't think you can blame the Sperry artifical horizon simply because the pilot didn't have any experience with it...'

Quote

'The pilot simply lost "spatial orientation" [a term Farflung mentions in an earlier post]. He apparently fixated on the artifical horizon and neglected to cross-check his other instruments. The end result was that he didn't know what the airplane was doing...'

If he was fixated on the Sperry and not watching the other instruments...and he was unfamiliar with it...then how can you NOT blame that as a major cause?

See 'Cab4' attachment below. The CAB thought it was a major cause, since the other instruments would be fluctuating.

Hmmm. Are you an expert in these matters or are
you just quoting from articles/reports as if you were
an expert? Surely there are other reports and
findings, by different people. How would you know
who is the expert and who is not? Or do you just
have a knack for "truth" no matter the subject or
the report, or the people involved?

Would you be open to having your genome studied?
So that the world could benefit from your remarkable
abilities?

Most people have to study for at least 1 hour to know
the Sperry-thingie at all. Either you are a pilot and
know this 'thingie' from personal experience, or, ...
well I hate to think of the alternatives! You could be
the key to somebody's future.