georger 244
mrshutter45 21
Jo, one of your first moves about John should have been finding any information to support the "Boeing " link.
If I'm not mistaken the word "Schematic" typically means electrical drawings.
I agree with Robert99, those would be classified documents which would give us yet another Weber thief.
you yourself said John and Duane didn't get a long so how did he get a hold of the documents?
even if he had the drawings, did he know how to read them? they will not explain the rear stairs could be opened in flight.
If I'm not mistaken the word "Schematic" typically means electrical drawings.
I agree with Robert99, those would be classified documents which would give us yet another Weber thief.
you yourself said John and Duane didn't get a long so how did he get a hold of the documents?
even if he had the drawings, did he know how to read them? they will not explain the rear stairs could be opened in flight.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
377 22
Quoteeven if he had the drawings, did he know how to read them? they will not explain the rear stairs could be opened in flight.
Correct. I have the basic 727 tech manuals (flight, systems, etc) and none disclose that the air stairs can be deployed in flight. I am an engineer and do know how read schematics. I very much doubt if Duane could read electrical or hydraulic schematics. Even if he could, the 727 schematics and system diagrams do not answer the critical question about flying with the stairs down.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
smokin99 0
QuoteThen Felix is standing on his capsule’s front porch in near space and steps into a virtual vacuum where stabilization is a concern. So here’s what I thought after opening a third beer. Why not leverage Newton’s law while maintaining your ‘Z’ axis via gravity, with a ‘step off’ that induces an intentional rotation around that axis from the platform?
lol..Gotta love a man of science. The only thing I think while opening that third beer is "now where did I put the freakin cheetos?"
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
Robert99 50
QuoteQuoteThen Felix is standing on his capsule’s front porch in near space and steps into a virtual vacuum where stabilization is a concern. So here’s what I thought after opening a third beer. Why not leverage Newton’s law while maintaining your ‘Z’ axis via gravity, with a ‘step off’ that induces an intentional rotation around that axis from the platform?
lol..Gotta love a man of science. The only thing I think while opening that third beer is "now where did I put the freakin cheetos?"
Interestingly enough, there is information somewhere on the Red Bull web page that thought was given to spinning with a drogue chute open.
In Kittinger's jump, I understand that the drogue chute was connected to the middle of the back pack. Therefore, Kittinger could actually get into a bad flat spin even with the drogue open.
In Felix Baumgartner's case, the drogue was attached to the top of the left shoulder of the harness. Deploying the drogue, which could be done either manually or automatically, would move him into a heads up position and, being offset from the body's centerline, would stop the spinning (at least in theory).
Robert99
Farflung 0
Georger says all science-y:
“Any spin at that alititude would produce some drag
vs the vertical gravitational component. Gravity at
128k is virtually the same as on the surface of the
earth - not weightless space where forces can be
rather quickly balanced if need be.”
Exactly. So I figured that some ‘benchmarking’ of other industries and sciences was in order. What other activity requires precise control of induced forces which counteract one another with an extremely high reliability?
First I figured a student should spend hours and hours in a Barany chair, for reasons I have not managed to define as of yet. But if I was forced to be humiliated in one of those things, while a fetching Flight Nurse looked on, then so will everyone else. I’m consistent like that.
This would progress to the study of ballet, where the creation of an instant and stable spin is required in order to maintain poise and balance upon return to the surface. These diaphanous women manage to complete several revolutions using nothing more than their sculpted, feminine and hypnotic legs, while elevating themselves on the tips of their toes. This would make for a logical primary training in body stabilization in a small time frame. Plus, have you seen the legs on those ballerinas? I could think of worse things to getting washed-back on that phase of training.
Next is a group of people who don’t have the luxury of tens of thousands of feet, to get their act together before a bone crushing return to Earth. Not only do they have to stabilize in a scant few seconds, they do it with virtually no equipment, unlike the safety apparel laden skydiver. Of course I’m referring to divers who stand at the nape of a death altitude, then with the utmost precision and repeatability, jump, spin, stabilize and break the surface of the water with barely a ripple. They do this, all the while looking scorching hot while they wait or towel off or give their teammates long congratulatory hugs. This is obviously the next level of study if the science of aviation is to expect any advances in the next century.
Again, because I care too much, I’ve decided to establish a center for the training of spin stabilized jumping, in a near vacuum, so the person to break the ‘Red Bull’ record won’t have to worry about grey-outs or uncontrolled descents. This combination of space flight dynamics with arcane ‘Air Breather’ techniques is what will propel the next jump to 250,000 feet, or as the units will be renamed once one of my graduates shatters this record; 250,000 farfs. Yes.
“Any spin at that alititude would produce some drag
vs the vertical gravitational component. Gravity at
128k is virtually the same as on the surface of the
earth - not weightless space where forces can be
rather quickly balanced if need be.”
Exactly. So I figured that some ‘benchmarking’ of other industries and sciences was in order. What other activity requires precise control of induced forces which counteract one another with an extremely high reliability?
First I figured a student should spend hours and hours in a Barany chair, for reasons I have not managed to define as of yet. But if I was forced to be humiliated in one of those things, while a fetching Flight Nurse looked on, then so will everyone else. I’m consistent like that.
This would progress to the study of ballet, where the creation of an instant and stable spin is required in order to maintain poise and balance upon return to the surface. These diaphanous women manage to complete several revolutions using nothing more than their sculpted, feminine and hypnotic legs, while elevating themselves on the tips of their toes. This would make for a logical primary training in body stabilization in a small time frame. Plus, have you seen the legs on those ballerinas? I could think of worse things to getting washed-back on that phase of training.
Next is a group of people who don’t have the luxury of tens of thousands of feet, to get their act together before a bone crushing return to Earth. Not only do they have to stabilize in a scant few seconds, they do it with virtually no equipment, unlike the safety apparel laden skydiver. Of course I’m referring to divers who stand at the nape of a death altitude, then with the utmost precision and repeatability, jump, spin, stabilize and break the surface of the water with barely a ripple. They do this, all the while looking scorching hot while they wait or towel off or give their teammates long congratulatory hugs. This is obviously the next level of study if the science of aviation is to expect any advances in the next century.
Again, because I care too much, I’ve decided to establish a center for the training of spin stabilized jumping, in a near vacuum, so the person to break the ‘Red Bull’ record won’t have to worry about grey-outs or uncontrolled descents. This combination of space flight dynamics with arcane ‘Air Breather’ techniques is what will propel the next jump to 250,000 feet, or as the units will be renamed once one of my graduates shatters this record; 250,000 farfs. Yes.
Robert99 50
QuoteGeorger says all science-y:
“Any spin at that alititude would produce some drag
vs the vertical gravitational component. Gravity at
128k is virtually the same as on the surface of the
earth - not weightless space where forces can be
rather quickly balanced if need be.”
Exactly. So I figured that some ‘benchmarking’ of other industries and sciences was in order. What other activity requires precise control of induced forces which counteract one another with an extremely high reliability?
First I figured a student should spend hours and hours in a Barany chair, for reasons I have not managed to define as of yet. But if I was forced to be humiliated in one of those things, while a fetching Flight Nurse looked on, then so will everyone else. I’m consistent like that.
This would progress to the study of ballet, where the creation of an instant and stable spin is required in order to maintain poise and balance upon return to the surface. These diaphanous women manage to complete several revolutions using nothing more than their sculpted, feminine and hypnotic legs, while elevating themselves on the tips of their toes. This would make for a logical primary training in body stabilization in a small time frame. Plus, have you seen the legs on those ballerinas? I could think of worse things to getting washed-back on that phase of training.
Next is a group of people who don’t have the luxury of tens of thousands of feet, to get their act together before a bone crushing return to Earth. Not only do they have to stabilize in a scant few seconds, they do it with virtually no equipment, unlike the safety apparel laden skydiver. Of course I’m referring to divers who stand at the nape of a death altitude, then with the utmost precision and repeatability, jump, spin, stabilize and break the surface of the water with barely a ripple. They do this, all the while looking scorching hot while they wait or towel off or give their teammates long congratulatory hugs. This is obviously the next level of study if the science of aviation is to expect any advances in the next century.
Again, because I care too much, I’ve decided to establish a center for the training of spin stabilized jumping, in a near vacuum, so the person to break the ‘Red Bull’ record won’t have to worry about grey-outs or uncontrolled descents. This combination of space flight dynamics with arcane ‘Air Breather’ techniques is what will propel the next jump to 250,000 feet, or as the units will be renamed once one of my graduates shatters this record; 250,000 farfs. Yes.
The word is that Felix had spent a lot of time practicing that first step in order to prevent any rotation or spinning. And when he disappeared from view, maybe two miles below the capsule, the overhead camera was still showing him in a very stable and slightly head down position.
I think the people in the control room were actually cheering because he was so stable.
Robert99
377 22
Farf wrote
Sign me up Farf. Bring on the Ballerinas. Are they Russian?
An easier stab augmentation could have been employed: a pre spun gyro mass strapped to Felix in an orientation that would buck a flat spin.
The latest yachts are now using internal rotating masses to counter roll rather than the older external gyro controlled anti roll fins. Less drag, better fuel economy.
http://www.seakeeper.com/
Sheridan Peterson has been active in 2012 on Google Plus. It's his usual anti govt anti war stuff. You gotta love an old lefty skydiver. Somehow this ranting has more cred coming from Sheridan an ex Marine, ex USFS smoke jumper, and Nam advisor than if it came from an old hippie.
Sheridan, if you are reading this just say hello. I am not FBI or CIA, just an old jumper with politics similar to yours who'd like to meet you and chat. I pass through Windsor now and then and would be honored to buy you a meal, some beer and listen to your thoughts on a variety of subjects that I think we share an interest in.
377
QuoteAgain, because I care too much, I’ve decided to establish a center for the training of spin stabilized jumping,
Sign me up Farf. Bring on the Ballerinas. Are they Russian?
An easier stab augmentation could have been employed: a pre spun gyro mass strapped to Felix in an orientation that would buck a flat spin.
The latest yachts are now using internal rotating masses to counter roll rather than the older external gyro controlled anti roll fins. Less drag, better fuel economy.
http://www.seakeeper.com/
Sheridan Peterson has been active in 2012 on Google Plus. It's his usual anti govt anti war stuff. You gotta love an old lefty skydiver. Somehow this ranting has more cred coming from Sheridan an ex Marine, ex USFS smoke jumper, and Nam advisor than if it came from an old hippie.
Sheridan, if you are reading this just say hello. I am not FBI or CIA, just an old jumper with politics similar to yours who'd like to meet you and chat. I pass through Windsor now and then and would be honored to buy you a meal, some beer and listen to your thoughts on a variety of subjects that I think we share an interest in.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Farflung 0
Robert99,
The capsule Felix jumped from represented the best horizon reference and fixed platform to establish a controlled rotation, thus it appeared to be designed to step off- versus- setting an axis of rotation. A couple of gyros could have been integrated into the jump, but I prefer simple before complex solutions. Another technique could have been designed into the exterior platform, where the floor begins a rotation while dropping away like the door on a gallows. That may be too surreal of a design considering some of the potential results.
I was trained to use the ‘tuck’ (cannonball) position when bailing out. No pirouettes, gainers or face down, frog modified postures, just a tuck. I’m willing to bet, if I fell out of a plane, I would go into a ‘tuck’ position. This was considered the simplest and safest technique to train aircrew, and it comforted us since we could also use that position to kiss our ass goodbye. So everybody wins.
Since Kittinger used the step off technique, which resulted in a spin, it only makes sense that when Felix stepped off, the result would be a spin. You are still in a near vacuum where aerodynamic forces are minimal. Just like the Apollo 15 experiment where a hammer and feather were dropped and hit the surface of the Moon at the same moment. I realize there are legions of people who believe he should have used a duck’s feather instead of one from a falcon to alter the results.
If I had to choose a devil, I would choose the smallest one. I’m assuming (assuming here) that a controlled spin around the ‘Z’ axis of the human body would deliver the lowest risk, while approaching heavier air where body control can be used to establish a stable (non rotating) descent posture. Those women diving off thirty foot high platforms achieve stable postures with very limited benefit of drag forces versus inertial energies. But how radical can one be with something so rare and expensive? The goal was to break some records and the ‘Red Bull’ team certainly did that with great results, no one was hurt. Of course that won’t impede my quest for ‘Continuous Improvement’, be it aviation or finding a way to hang out with ballerinas under the guise of helping all mankind.
The capsule Felix jumped from represented the best horizon reference and fixed platform to establish a controlled rotation, thus it appeared to be designed to step off- versus- setting an axis of rotation. A couple of gyros could have been integrated into the jump, but I prefer simple before complex solutions. Another technique could have been designed into the exterior platform, where the floor begins a rotation while dropping away like the door on a gallows. That may be too surreal of a design considering some of the potential results.
I was trained to use the ‘tuck’ (cannonball) position when bailing out. No pirouettes, gainers or face down, frog modified postures, just a tuck. I’m willing to bet, if I fell out of a plane, I would go into a ‘tuck’ position. This was considered the simplest and safest technique to train aircrew, and it comforted us since we could also use that position to kiss our ass goodbye. So everybody wins.
Since Kittinger used the step off technique, which resulted in a spin, it only makes sense that when Felix stepped off, the result would be a spin. You are still in a near vacuum where aerodynamic forces are minimal. Just like the Apollo 15 experiment where a hammer and feather were dropped and hit the surface of the Moon at the same moment. I realize there are legions of people who believe he should have used a duck’s feather instead of one from a falcon to alter the results.
If I had to choose a devil, I would choose the smallest one. I’m assuming (assuming here) that a controlled spin around the ‘Z’ axis of the human body would deliver the lowest risk, while approaching heavier air where body control can be used to establish a stable (non rotating) descent posture. Those women diving off thirty foot high platforms achieve stable postures with very limited benefit of drag forces versus inertial energies. But how radical can one be with something so rare and expensive? The goal was to break some records and the ‘Red Bull’ team certainly did that with great results, no one was hurt. Of course that won’t impede my quest for ‘Continuous Improvement’, be it aviation or finding a way to hang out with ballerinas under the guise of helping all mankind.
Farflung 0
You beat me to the ‘Gyro’ solution 377. Just more evidence of how similar problems, approached from different locations, by different people, can result in similar solutions. Assuming there isn’t any undue bias from Sasquatches, Roswell Aliens or Elvis sightings.
As far as the ballerinas, cut me and I bleed red, white and blue; so Americans First! Unless some Russian ballerina has a smoking bod, then it’s straight to INS for her, because in every drop dead beautiful Russian woman is an American, trying to gain employment at the Farflung Flight Academy.
As far as the ballerinas, cut me and I bleed red, white and blue; so Americans First! Unless some Russian ballerina has a smoking bod, then it’s straight to INS for her, because in every drop dead beautiful Russian woman is an American, trying to gain employment at the Farflung Flight Academy.
Farflung 0
RobertMBlevins declares:
” His 128,000 foot jump record will probably last for....EVER.”
Before issuing a ‘revision’ with:
“Records are made to be broken”
I thought that was….. ummm…. hold on I got a ‘Tweet’….. yeah, that’s great…. Brb… so as I was saying my new I-phone has made me more efficient…. Hold on a sec….. got a text…. LOL ASIB SSDD SSIA…. Umm I like chocolate milk…. Me….. I’m hot… bigger, faster, better than yours…. I un-suck.. so yeah, there.
” His 128,000 foot jump record will probably last for....EVER.”
Before issuing a ‘revision’ with:
“Records are made to be broken”
I thought that was….. ummm…. hold on I got a ‘Tweet’….. yeah, that’s great…. Brb… so as I was saying my new I-phone has made me more efficient…. Hold on a sec….. got a text…. LOL ASIB SSDD SSIA…. Umm I like chocolate milk…. Me….. I’m hot… bigger, faster, better than yours…. I un-suck.. so yeah, there.
377 22
A different perspective on Felix's leap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yFU774q6eVM
377
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yFU774q6eVM
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Thats a good question. My guess is they chose not
to for several reasons, if it even came up, as it might
have with Kittinger's experience.
My guess is they didnt want to introduce any type of
spin as denser air was going to be encountered,
fearing any spin might translate into destructive
forces, vs. as vertical a drop as possible in order to
maximize acceleration and minimize drag
components.
It still is a good question. I wonder if it was
discussed?
At 128k feet you are still in the 20% zone - the
region where roughly 20% of the atmopshere is
between 12-31 miles. Air density at 128k feet is
7.3x10-4 kg/m^3 vs. 1.2 kg/m^3 at sea level.
Any spin at that alititude would produce some drag
vs the vertical gravitational component. Gravity at
128k is virtually the same as on the surface of the
earth - not weightless space where forces can be
rather quickly balanced if need be.
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