DB Cooper

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Greetings,

Many have read my positng at the Mountain News about Galen Cook's uncovering a couple of men who as teenagesrs in 1980 say they found money shards at Tina's Bar the month prior to Brian Ingram.

Many have questioned Galen about it, and he's given a comprehensive response, so I thought I'd post it here to further the conversation on these pages.

- Bruce

Here is Galen's commentary:


1 Just a few comments to clear up some possible misunderstandings.

My investigation into the D.B. Cooper mystery branches out into many areas of inquiry. Tina’s Bar is just part of my overall probe into the case, however it does hold some fascinating clues if one wants to conduct a deeper examination.

Back in 2009, SA Larry Carr and I discussed the issue of the Brian Ingram find, particularily as it pertained to the decomposition of the $20 bills. Later that year, I associated with a particularily experienced scientist from Portland who agreed to come on board and work with me at the Tina Bar discovery site. We basically mapped the entire area into a scientific grid. We had the full support of the Fazio’s and unlimited access to their beachfront via their private drive.

Our experiments apparently caught the interest of the FBI. The Supervisory Agent in Seattle put me in direct contact with SA Curtis Eng. Then, the FBI released the “Palmer Report” to me. That report cited a most likely “arrival time” of the $20 packets at between 9 months and 12 months prior to discovery. Palmer’s specialization was “shoreline process,” which would allow a scientific examination of sedimentary deposits and the strata of the beach soils. A packet of bills found at a particular strata on the shoreline can be correlated to a specific period of time in which they “arrived.”

My goal was to try and simulate the money find, including the decomposition process, using various controls. We conducted our experiments both at Tina’s Bar and in the lab, and then replicated them more than twice in order to gain confidence in our experiments. The results of the experiments will be published at a later date.

I found it odd that there were never reports of others finding pieces of Cooper’s money at Tina’s Bar. Richard Tosaw and I had discussed this issue many times while we worked together on the Columbia River during 2005 and 2008. [there were reports that the FBI had found "shards" back in February 1980, but this matter was never verified, nor was there an indication of it when SA Curtis Eng allowed me to inspect the Cooper money at the Seattle Field Office].

In late summer of 2012, I spent a rather long period of time at Tina’s Bar and got to know the fishermen who fish the area. I also learned why Tina’s is such a popular location for fishermen. Fishermen are a bit like goldminers, in that they tend to be evasive as to what they know about the area, particularily when non-fishermen are asking the questions. But after a discussion with a lone fisherman, he casually told me that Ingram’s find was not the only discovery of Cooper’s money.

Through some coaxing, I received enough information to locate the two individuals who had made the earlier discovery. Both grew up in Vancouver, WA and fished at Tina’s Bar since childhood.

Bruce’s narrative is pretty accurate about what happened next. The men, now in their 40′s, but age 12 and 14 at the time, found the shards at Tina’s Bar approximately 4 weeks prior to Ingram’s find. I went to some length to corroborate their story, which checked out. I asked them why they never notified the authorities and they told me that they had no idea whose money shards they found (before 2/10/80). It wasn’t until the Ingram find came out in the newspaper that they understood what they had found. It didn’t make any sense to notify authorities at that point because the media was giving full attention to Ingram, and, the two boys didn’t keep the shards anyway. [this story was checked-out through the parents, who also saw the shards on the beach on that day of discovery].

The shards standing alone means nothing to an investigator. What I needed to know is (1) “where” the shard were found; (2) “what condition” the shards were in; and (3) “how many” shards were viewed?

I received the answers. These fellows took me to a location that was very important to myself and the scientist who works with me. That location, the depth, the condition, the number of shards, as well as the location downriver where a few more were found, is what matters most. It would have been nice if they had kept the shards, but what would a couple of youngsters do with small corner tips of $20′s? These kids were just fishing with their parents and hanging out at their favorite fishing site.
After 32 years, no one else has ever come out with a story about finding more Cooper money at Tina’s Bar. There is nothing to gain by this kind of story, well after the fact, unless of course, the specific information can be related back to other known information and can be fitted into a scientific model that will assist in further experimentation and investigation.

This 32 year-old information, which has very slowly worked its way out, tells a great deal about the complexities of the Tina Bar mystery, at least from a scientist’s perspective. All it took was some willingness to get to know the true nature of fishermen, and get them to finally talk. That took some time, but it was worth it.

Galen G. Cook
Attorney at Law

[Galen repsonse triggered more comments from MN readers, and he gave us an expanded view, offered below:]

Comments to your responders above. You have to put all of the material factors of beach erosion into play. Natural flow, freshets, tidal forces, wakes from passing ships or smaller vessels. There is a tendency towards continuing beach erosion. We took decisive measurements of this from 2009 to 2012. The only evidence of accretion was from the dredging operations, which occured just south of Tina’s Bar, or near the wingdams, which are erected as pilings into the main river current. Thus, it would be almost impossible for the money to arrive by natural means from upstream and then be covered and buried at a substantial depth by natural beach build-up at an area downriver from dredge stacking, or, at an even greater distance downstream from the wingdams.

Apparently, the depth of the discovery sites and the various types of sand stratas were the only relevant factors for Dr. Palmer in 1980, as that allowed him the proper shoreline process analysis in which to determine an arrival date. My understanding is that the FBI is not in disagreement with his conclusion.

What Dr. Palmer does not do is create a scientific theory as to how the money arrived at TB. So, the question of “how” the money got there is still in play.

As to the shards: It seems that too many corner pieces of $20s were found to account for the missing $120 (six bills) from one of the packets. Three packets were found together, but the shards were found in a separate discovery hole. Why is the money separated into two discovery sites, and why is the money found in two distinct forms (bundled; sharded)? It seems that there was probably more than $6000, but far less than $200,000 at TB.

As to the shard discovery by the kids: they were young teens, and their parents had no reason to get involved. Shards of bills are not worth anything. Back in 1980, everyone reading the news in that area just figured that Cooper must have died and this was some of the evidence left behind. The FBI and the Fazios closed the entire area down for weeks after the Ingrams find and the fishing ceased for a time. These are fishermen, not scientists or sleuths. They prefer to be left alone and fish. I doubt any of them read the DZ, or sit around and try to establish the latest preferred theory. Most of the fishermen I talked to could care less about D.B. Cooper.

Anyway, good questions nevertheless.

Galen Cook

If Galen Cook and Richard Tosaw carefully noted the locations where the money and shards were found and the elevations above sea level (or some other vertical reference), then they may have made some significant progress on determining "where" the bills came from.

For instance, if the money and shards were found at different heights on the shore or at different depths in the sand, then that would suggest that they arrived at different times. And those different times imply repeatabilty.

In view of all the other factors in play, repeatability would imply in turn that the money came from the same source and that the source was relatively fixed and very near Tena Bar.

Robert99

[377 22]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

8. Could Cooper have had a homing device on him
so that anyone within 5 miles of where he landed
could determine his location (Fank Heyl's profile)?

Very unlikely. No GPS back then. Best you could do is use a radio direction finder to get a bearing on a signal, but that doesn't work well over irregular terrain. Just gives you an approximate bearing, no range info.

McCoy's rigs had govt supplied beacons implanted by Perry Stevens, a rigger in Oakland CA. Most likely they were military bailout beacons on 243.0 MHz. Some USAF planes (eg HC 130H) were equipped with UHF ADFs that could get a bearing on that frequency. The problems of reflecting signals off terrain is minimized when the bearings are taken from aloft.

377

__________________________________________________

That answers that question -- two more questions for you 377: could DBC have brought on board 305, either in the briefcase or in the paperbag, a bailout type beacon (the flares maybe)? If so, could a land vehicle be equipped and capable of getting a bearing on that bailout beacon frequency? Thanks. MeyerLouie

MeyerLouie, Let me see if I can help answer your questions. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, emergency locator transmitter beacons (ELTs) were just being introduced into small general aviation aircraft.

I don't remember the year that they were mandated by the FAA, but some of the early ELTs were very small and could be, and were, mounted on the side of the baggage compartment of even the smallest aircraft (such as Cessna 150s). You could almost carry these things in your shirt pocket based on their size.

They had to be mounted in a direction such that longitudinal impact forces would force a weight forward to turn on the transmitter switch during accidents. And the pilot was responsible for seeing that the ELTs were not activated as a part of his shut down check list at the end of a flight.

These ELTs operated on 121.5 and 243.0 on the VHF and UHF bands, respectively, when activated.

To locate aircraft after an accident, the search aircraft would ideally have a VHF/UHF "direction finder" capability. Military search aircraft had such a capability. Perhaps 377 knows if such a piece of equipment was available to general aviation and ships in that time frame.

But Cooper could easily have had one of these ELTs in his paper bag or coat pocket. However, anyone who wanted to locate him would need the "direction finder" end of the system.

Robert99

Robert 99 gave a good account of ELT beacons. If Cooper had used one on 121.5 MHz (its second harmonic is 243.0 MHz, a military distress freq) it would likely have been heard by military aircraft and reported. Common UHF radios carried by military aircraft in 1971 were the ARC 27 (older) and the ARC 51. Both had full time "guard" receivers that listened on 243.0 even when comms were being made on other frequencies.

Hand held direction finders for tracking ELTs and bailout beacons were available in 71. I have a working military surplus one used in Viet Nam.

Here is a type of DF for 121.5 used in civil aircraft:
http://bit.ly/SXZfSs

Similar ones were available in 1971. They weren't often found in normal private planes but were used by Civil Air Patrol aircraft.

Because 121.5 and 243.0 were "hot" distress freqs it would have been nuts for Cooper to use them.

He could have modified the gear to use alternate freqs but that's very unlikely.

My guess is that if Cooper used any radio gear it was a CB walkie talkie. With luck a rendezvous could be made with this gear by sighting well known peaks and giving bearing info to each other. Do I have any proof that radios were used? Nope, zero.

Marla gave a VERY convincing account of her uncles' CB walkie talkies. Lots of physical detail. I'd bet they had them and that they were a Midland brand model. It proves zero about Norjack involvement though.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

D B Cooper was Colonel Hugh Gordon Waite. He was a paratrooper. He spoke French. He was a native of Oregon and is buried in Portland. He was an avid photographer and used a camera with a titanium shutter that would leave shard traces of titanium on the clip on tie he wore. There are pictures at his daughters web site of him wearing that tie. DB Cooper has never been identified because he lived after the crime.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4142654;search_string=hugh%20waite;#4142654

Pat, you may want to refer back to the previous conversation on this thread (Post #24310). Why bring it up again when it looks like he was with his family skiing in the Alps over the Thanksgiving holiday.

Happy Turkey Day Vicki - glad you are still around. I cannot find these things and you just pop up with them as easy as pie.
I knew we had gone over this and I myself made some contacts outside if the thread - but old age does strange things which there are certain ones in this thread do not believe.

I can recall the long ago past better than I can tell you what I did yesterday or even this morning. Thanks for lofting around tp help some of us who are NOT as astute as you are.

You put brains and beauty together in on fantastic package. Hope someday I can meet you. Probably not unless you want to come to Florida.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 245]

If Galen Cook and Richard Tosaw carefully noted the locations where the money and shards were found and the elevations above sea level (or some other vertical reference), then they may have made some significant progress on determining "where" the bills came from.

For instance, if the money and shards were found at different heights on the shore or at different depths in the sand, then that would suggest that they arrived at different times. And those different times imply repeatabilty.

In view of all the other factors in play, repeatability would imply in turn that the money came from the same source and that the source was relatively fixed and very near Tena Bar.

Robert99

[Farflung 0]

RobertMBlevins continues his orgy of disinformation with:

“The problem isn't with the transmitter, it's with the receiver, which in 1971 would denote extreme expertise in its use and an ability to understand the equipment used to receive the signals, and then pinpoint the location where those signals originate, and then proceed to that location.”


DENOTE EXTREME EXPERIENCE IN ITS USE???

Really?? Wow, I guess when someone doesn’t have a clue what they are talking about, they then assume the planet doesn’t have a clue either, and it’s OK to publish bullshit. This is like the aft stairs being soooooo complex to operate that it would take an advanced degree in mechanical engineering to operate them. Geesh people, can you give it a rest?

First. If you prang some aircraft, the odds are the search will be conducted by the CAP. This is a great organization, but it is staffed with volunteers and a bunch of teen-agers. How complex would one expect the equipment to be? Of course I’m assuming one would use their superior investigative skills and logic to arrive at this assumption.

DF-ing (no it does not mean Dumb Fu) has been around as a hobby for decades before there was any DBers. The systems were simple to use, small and quite familiar to HAMs and electronics geeks.

You could make one yourself (Heathkit) or buy a Zenith, Bendix or any number of brands which are now owned by the Chinese.

Attached is a photo of a DF club getting some training. Look at the cars and guess how many years this was before the Cooper hijacking. The other photos are of various DF-ing receivers available to anyone. Complex equipment indeed.

This is yet another reason why no one takes this subject seriously (and shouldn’t) and why RobertMBlevins attracts venom. Why talk out of your ass like this? Does it make you feel important and all big man-ish? How many DF systems have you operated RobertMBlevins? How many have you seen? What the hell were you talking about? Clydesdales, Iditarod races, un-named software, backing down stairs, un-reported break ins, tree stump money, height distortion, the mystery of the color hazel, toupees on ELTs, Airstream buttseks, lighter than air water, Cooper demanding twenties, Tina being a cat, digging ditches, digging bourbon or is this another thing to add to the extensive pile of your crap?

I mean really, who does this?

[bloodmark 0]

If the Geestmans had anything to do with the DB Cooper skyjacking, it looks like she more than doubled the skyjacking money by selling her property earlier this year.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=margaret%20geestman%20twisp%2C%20wa&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEcQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rco.wa.gov%2Fprism%2FProjectSnapshotAttachmentData.aspx%3Fid%3D140432&ei=_FyqUO6ON8mMygG70YGYDg&usg=AFQjCNEYb-ZixHrwVZYfqpxB4lmyZz6Pvg

[georger 245]

Don't you just hate it? We finally agree on something. I read a bundle of cute explanations by Cook that basically say not a whole lot in the way of hard information. And that type of behavior puts me on guard about that alleged information right away. Sounds like more fodder for another appearance on Coast-to-Coast AM radio.

Quote

'Results will be published at a later date...

'

[377 22]

Quote

RobertMBlevins continues his orgy of disinformation with:

“The problem isn't with the transmitter, it's with the receiver, which in 1971 would denote extreme expertise in its use and an ability to understand the equipment used to receive the signals, and then pinpoint the location where those signals originate, and then proceed to that location.”


DENOTE EXTREME EXPERIENCE IN ITS USE???

Really?? Wow, I guess when someone doesn’t have a clue what they are talking about, they then assume the planet doesn’t have a clue either, and it’s OK to publish bullshit. This is like the aft stairs being soooooo complex to operate that it would take an advanced degree in mechanical engineering to operate them. Geesh people, can you give it a rest?

First. If you prang some aircraft, the odds are the search will be conducted by the CAP. This is a great organization, but it is staffed with volunteers and a bunch of teen-agers. How complex would one expect the equipment to be? Of course I’m assuming one would use their superior investigative skills and logic to arrive at this assumption.

DF-ing (no it does not mean Dumb Fu) has been around as a hobby for decades before there was any DBers. The systems were simple to use, small and quite familiar to HAMs and electronics geeks.

You could make one yourself (Heathkit) or buy a Zenith, Bendix or any number of brands which are now owned by the Chinese.

Attached is a photo of a DF club getting some training. Look at the cars and guess how many years this was before the Cooper hijacking. The other photos are of various DF-ing receivers available to anyone. Complex equipment indeed.

This is yet another reason why no one takes this subject seriously (and shouldn’t) and why RobertMBlevins attracts venom. Why talk out of your ass like this? Does it make you feel important and all big man-ish? How many DF systems have you operated RobertMBlevins? How many have you seen? What the hell were you talking about? Clydesdales, Iditarod races, un-named software, backing down stairs, un-reported break ins, tree stump money, height distortion, the mystery of the color hazel, toupees on ELTs, Airstream buttseks, lighter than air water, Cooper demanding twenties, Tina being a cat, digging ditches, digging bourbon or is this another thing to add to the extensive pile of your crap?

I mean really, who does this?

Those DFs depicted in Farfs poster covered all or subsets of a range from 200 KHz to about 3 MHz. None of them would work on a VHF or UHF signal. It isnt all that hard, however, to make a crude VHF or UHF DF by just hooking up a directional antenna (like a Yagi beam) to a receiver and swinging the antenna for a maximum signal. Hams have been holding "fox hunts" since long before 1971. A fox hunt is an event where hams compete to find hidden beacon transmitters, often on VHF (144 MHz) or UHF (440MHz) bands.

Here is a ton of info on the subject: http://www.homingin.com/

I am still digging hard trying to find out what the MAC SOG guys used to rendevous after landing at night in the N Viet Nam wilderness. I get hints that it may have been as simple as Sony AM band transistor radios with ferrite bar antennas (very directional) and low power AM band beacons. You would get a 180 degree ambiguity in the bearing using a simple transistor radio but with a low power beacon you'd soon realize if you were walking in the wrong direction as signal strength would decrease rapidly. Whatever they used apparently worked well and doesnt seem to be documented in any Internet data that I could find. THAT's why we need Snowmman back, he'd find something.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

'How could anyone go to Tina Bar today and
locate the exact spot and "hole" that existed in 1980 but does not remotely exist in physical form today? Some 30 feet of beachfront has ceased to exist since 1980, according to Tom Kaye! Were Galen and the boys standing in the water? Galen needs to provide a map and a few more details if we are to take this seriously -'

Agree.

And what's a good explanation for the corners of twenties to be torn off and allegedly buried right next to
Ingrams find?

Cook's story that fishermen are just interested in fishing and cant be bothered with a red hot national news story that they may have scooped doesn't sound plausible to me.

Does anyone recall when the news broke about Ingram's money find? It was a VERY big deal.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Farflung 0]

Why Re-invent the wheel 377?

Using a guard freq for homing would be among the least intelligent designs I could imagine. Every aircraft for a radius of 100 miles would be picking up that signal and calling ATC. The military is already well equipped with DF receivers and techniques for locating the source. Using that would almost guarantee Cooper’s arrest.

Here’s a bunch of cheap LF equipment which was sold at Radio Shacks and Sears which is small, portable and tunable across a vast spectrum.

So IF (massively huge gi-normous IF) Cooper was using some sort of RF device, why not use some simple model from a fox hunt? You don’t care about directionality, so VHF and UHF offer no advantage, plus they are line of sight.

Take a roll of copper wire for your antenna and chuck it over some tree limb and start your short duration, omni-directional transmission, with a battery. You could extend the life and or increase power, by squawking at some predetermined schedule, like one minute every fifteen. Plus who is going to be monitoring some CW on the LF band?

At least try and use some scenario which is plausible and back it up with some data or examples of how this could be done (easily). How this got on to ELTs as a consideration is NOT thinking outside the box.

Even with walkie-talkies what would Cooper and his accomplice say?

Hey, I’m on the ground in some woods, there are trees and dirt, over.

Roger, copy trees and dirt, I’m on my way, don’t do anything till I show up.

Wilco.

OR…..

Hey, I made it! Wooooo HOOOOT! I’m on the corner of Thompson and Elm and hiding behind a shed, you can’t miss it.

Wilco.

Meanwhile at dispatch, near a scanner:

Car forty seven, car fifty four and car eighteen, we heard a person excitedly calling for a pick up at Thompson and Elm……. Suspect reported to be armed… over.

[377 22]

Farf wrote:

Quote

Why Re-invent the wheel 377?

Using a guard freq for homing would be among the least intelligent designs I could imagine. Every aircraft for a radius of 100 miles would be picking up that signal and calling ATC. The military is already well equipped with DF receivers and techniques for locating the source. Using that would almost guarantee Cooper’s arrest.

Farflung, did your Twinkie feast cause you to miss my earlier post saying exactly this? Or were you wrapped up in a silk and nylon test with Marla?

Here is what I posted (emphasis added):

Quote

Robert 99 gave a good account of ELT beacons. If Cooper had used one on 121.5 MHz (its second harmonic is 243.0 MHz, a military distress freq) it would likely have been heard by military aircraft and reported. Common UHF radios carried by military aircraft in 1971 were the ARC 27 (older) and the ARC 51. Both had full time "guard" receivers that listened on 243.0 even when comms were being made on other frequencies.

Hand held direction finders for tracking ELTs and bailout beacons were available in 71. I have a working military surplus one used in Viet Nam.

Here is a type of DF for 121.5 used in civil aircraft:
http://bit.ly/SXZfSs

Similar ones were available in 1971. They weren't often found in normal private planes but were used by Civil Air Patrol aircraft.

Because 121.5 and 243.0 were "hot" distress freqs it would have been nuts for Cooper to use them.

He could have modified the gear to use alternate freqs but that's very unlikely

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Here’s a bunch of cheap LF equipment which was sold at Radio Shacks and Sears which is small, portable and tunable across a vast spectrum

It takes a very long antenna to do justice to transmitted signals in the LF MF bands.

Short coil-loaded subsitutes are just so-so. When you are trying to get a DF shot on a weak LF or MF signal with a loop antenna if the signal is weak the null is very broad, giving you huge uncertainty in your bearing. Strong sigs give sharp nulls and good accuracy. I remeber shooting the Farallon Island beacon on 318 KHz from 100 miles out. The null was so wide that it was almost useless. As I got closer then signal got stronger and the bearing null became very sharp. As I recall the beacon was 100 watts and had a big tower vertical antenna.

That's why I am so interested in finding out if the MAC SOG jumpers in Nam were able to use essentially AM broadcast band very low power sigs to rendevous. Conventional wisdom would lead you to much higher freqs where small antennas work well. Maybe they thought out of the box and made it work.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

8. Could Cooper have had a homing device on him
so that anyone within 5 miles of where he landed
could determine his location (Fank Heyl's profile)?

Very unlikely. No GPS back then. Best you could do is use a radio direction finder to get a bearing on a signal, but that doesn't work well over irregular terrain. Just gives you an approximate bearing, no range info.

McCoy's rigs had govt supplied beacons implanted by Perry Stevens, a rigger in Oakland CA. Most likely they were military bailout beacons on 243.0 MHz. Some USAF planes (eg HC 130H) were equipped with UHF ADFs that could get a bearing on that frequency. The problems of reflecting signals off terrain is minimized when the bearings are taken from aloft.

377

__________________________________________________

That answers that question -- two more questions for you 377: could DBC have brought on board 305, either in the briefcase or in the paperbag, a bailout type beacon (the flares maybe)? If so, could a land vehicle be equipped and capable of getting a bearing on that bailout beacon frequency? Thanks. MeyerLouie

MeyerLouie, Let me see if I can help answer your questions. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, emergency locator transmitter beacons (ELTs) were just being introduced into small general aviation aircraft.

I don't remember the year that they were mandated by the FAA, but some of the early ELTs were very small and could be, and were, mounted on the side of the baggage compartment of even the smallest aircraft (such as Cessna 150s). You could almost carry these things in your shirt pocket based on their size.

They had to be mounted in a direction such that longitudinal impact forces would force a weight forward to turn on the transmitter switch during accidents. And the pilot was responsible for seeing that the ELTs were not activated as a part of his shut down check list at the end of a flight.

These ELTs operated on 121.5 and 243.0 on the VHF and UHF bands, respectively, when activated.

To locate aircraft after an accident, the search aircraft would ideally have a VHF/UHF "direction finder" capability. Military search aircraft had such a capability. Perhaps 377 knows if such a piece of equipment was available to general aviation and ships in that time frame.

But Cooper could easily have had one of these ELTs in his paper bag or coat pocket. However, anyone who wanted to locate him would need the "direction finder" end of the system.

Robert99

My experience with quite a bit of usage of PRC 34 and PRC 90 survival radios.. and the small transmitters in parachutes that are set to go off on deployment or set off inadvertently ( by someone in life support or elsewhere near the flightline) is a whole lot of scrambling by any and everyone who monitors those frequencies in the area.

If anyone is suggesting those were used..please... put that thought to rest because. EVERY military reciever from Portland to Seattle ( and that is a WHOLE lot) would have been going off on active duty and guard and reservebases who monitor it for military aircraft emergencies.

[Farflung 0]

Nope, I didn’t miss it 377. It was your suggestion of designing a UHF/VHF DF system I was responding to.

Why use that spectrum? It’s filled with comms already and DF systems were already available, off the shelf, for the low frequency spectrum.

If I had to improvise something, I would choose some low freq beacon on a small breadboard, powered by the batteries in the briefcase, with a wire antenna. In fact, I would use the beacon as part of the ‘bomb’ with wires and scary stuff in the briefcase. Killing two birds with one stone, I really am driven by my greed and laziness. Why spend that time and effort when something already offers the 80% solution? Foxhunt gear.

True statement about the nulls and antenna efficiency in the low frequencies. Also true about navigation being near worthless at greater distances. What should be the anticipated ambiguity of Cooper’s jump with an accomplice? Ten miles, twenty miles or one hundred? How much power and antenna height/efficiency would you need for something in the ten mile category? Is the beacon going to have different propagation requirements from a walkie-talkie? Why? Power and antenna efficiencies are relative to design requirements. What’s required for something to work in the Cooper environment?

I would like to see a simple and honest matrix, of how various RF devices would perform. But I know I’ll just see some select favorites, just like the money arriving at Tena Bar puzzle.

Unfortunately this is the same animal as what the subject of dredging does to money at Tena Bar. If someone doesn’t like it, they issue some baseless declaration (code for: lie) that it is impossible or too complex. Funny how walkie-talkies are so popular with such limited range and exposure to detection, or that beacons are implausible since, well, there hasn’t been a movie or TV show with beacons so they don’t exist.

No matter the device, I’m going to start with simple. Before designing the ultimate HF beam with a reflector, I want to know how a roll of copper wire would perform. Oh it’s a little inefficient, then gin up the dilithium crystals with watts till the wires melt. Remember in automotive terms, there’s no replacement, for displacement.

[377 22]

Gargling wrote

Quote

If I had to improvise something, I would choose some low freq beacon on a small breadboard, powered by the batteries in the briefcase, with a wire antenna. In fact, I would use the beacon as part of the ‘bomb’ with wires and scary stuff in the briefcase. Killing two birds with one stone, I really am driven by my greed and laziness. Why spend that time and effort when something already offers the 80% solution? Foxhunt gear.

Hmmm... I think I see a new project to pursue in 2013. I've already made HAHO radio jumps with a walkie talkie and reached stations up to 100 miles away. I've jumped with an asymmetric bag strapped to me to test freefall stability. I've jumped from the rear stairway of a DC 9 passenger jet. OK, I admit it, I am obsessed.

I'm going to look through my junkbox and see what I can come up with for a low power BC band beacon. Then a field test to check reception distance and DF-ability. A wire antenna is a good idea for the transmitter. Stay tuned.

Again, zero proof that Cooper used radios. I'm just indulging a fantasy.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

8. Could Cooper have had a homing device on him
so that anyone within 5 miles of where he landed
could determine his location (Fank Heyl's profile)?

Very unlikely. No GPS back then. Best you could do is use a radio direction finder to get a bearing on a signal, but that doesn't work well over irregular terrain. Just gives you an approximate bearing, no range info.

McCoy's rigs had govt supplied beacons implanted by Perry Stevens, a rigger in Oakland CA. Most likely they were military bailout beacons on 243.0 MHz. Some USAF planes (eg HC 130H) were equipped with UHF ADFs that could get a bearing on that frequency. The problems of reflecting signals off terrain is minimized when the bearings are taken from aloft.

377

__________________________________________________

That answers that question -- two more questions for you 377: could DBC have brought on board 305, either in the briefcase or in the paperbag, a bailout type beacon (the flares maybe)? If so, could a land vehicle be equipped and capable of getting a bearing on that bailout beacon frequency? Thanks. MeyerLouie

MeyerLouie, Let me see if I can help answer your questions. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, emergency locator transmitter beacons (ELTs) were just being introduced into small general aviation aircraft.

I don't remember the year that they were mandated by the FAA, but some of the early ELTs were very small and could be, and were, mounted on the side of the baggage compartment of even the smallest aircraft (such as Cessna 150s). You could almost carry these things in your shirt pocket based on their size.

They had to be mounted in a direction such that longitudinal impact forces would force a weight forward to turn on the transmitter switch during accidents. And the pilot was responsible for seeing that the ELTs were not activated as a part of his shut down check list at the end of a flight.

These ELTs operated on 121.5 and 243.0 on the VHF and UHF bands, respectively, when activated.

To locate aircraft after an accident, the search aircraft would ideally have a VHF/UHF "direction finder" capability. Military search aircraft had such a capability. Perhaps 377 knows if such a piece of equipment was available to general aviation and ships in that time frame.

But Cooper could easily have had one of these ELTs in his paper bag or coat pocket. However, anyone who wanted to locate him would need the "direction finder" end of the system.

Robert99

My experience with quite a bit of usage of PRC 34 and PRC 90 survival radios.. and the small transmitters in parachutes that are set to go off on deployment or set off inadvertently ( by someone in life support or elsewhere near the flightline) is a whole lot of scrambling by any and everyone who monitors those frequencies in the area.

If anyone is suggesting those were used..please... put that thought to rest because. EVERY military reciever from Portland to Seattle ( and that is a WHOLE lot) would have been going off on active duty and guard and reservebases who monitor it for military aircraft emergencies.

Amazon, 377, Farflung, and others:

Let me add a paragraph or two here that should have been added to my original post.

I am NOT recommending that ELTs or beacons of any kind that operate on 121.5 and 243.0 would have been used in the hijacking.

There are several very good reasons for this:

1. As Amazon points out, just about ever military aircraft radio communication set in existence automatically monitors those emergency frequencies and so do most air traffic control facilities. This probably makes them the most monitored frequencies on the planet. At the present time, they are also monitered by satellites.

2. And as Farflung and Amazon both point out, about 97 percent (I thought it was closer to 100 percent) of the alarms from ELTs and beacons during their initial introduction were in fact false.

3. The C-130 following the hijacked airliner was described as a "Search and Rescue" aircraft. Although I haven't seen it in writing anywhere, this probably means that it had direction finding capabilities for these emergency frequencies.

4. There is no record of anyone's transmitter going off on these emergency frequencies during the hijacking and flight to Reno.

5. Cooper rejected military parachutes from the USAF at McChord AFB. It was common knowledge at that time that the USAF pilots and crewmen in Southeast Asia were using parachutes with radio beacons and that they could be tracked by search and rescue aircraft. Cooper may have known this, guessed that the McChord chutes would be so equipped, and he would probably would have been right (thanks to the efforts of the FBI).

6. The poster that I was originally responding to essentially asked if it was possible to track a transmitter with a piece of equipment that had a direction finding capability. As 377 has pointed out, the short answer is "Yes" but it would be a dumb thing to do in the Cooper hijacking.

7. The Hale Boggs disappearance was only one factor in introducing ELTs into general aviation usage. In fact, Don Jonz, Bogg's pilot, had an ELT.

Searchers found it safe and secure on his desk back at the airport of departure. I suppose this helped the powers that be realize that it would be a better idea to put the ELTs in the aircraft. Sometimes science progresses rather slowly.

Robert99

[377 22]

Quote

The C-130 following the hijacked airliner was described as a "Search and Rescue" aircraft. Although I haven't seen it in writing anywhere, this probably means that it had direction finding capabilities for these emergency frequencies.

If it was indeed a USAF/ANG SAR Herc then it was likely an HC 130 which DID have a good UHF ADF. It may even have been equipped with one of the the best airborne UHF ADFs ever made, the ARD-17, specially designed for tracking Apollo capsules and capable of DFing on 243.0 MHz.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19750010201_1975010201.pdf

I've always found it amusing that F 106 interceptors scrambled to find the 727 couldnt... and a lumbering Herky Bird did. Bet those fighter jocks had a hard time with that.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 245]

5. Cooper rejected military parachutes from the USAF at McChord AFB. It was common knowledge at that time that the USAF pilots and crewmen in Southeast Asia were using parachutes with radio beacons and that they could be tracked by search and rescue aircraft. Cooper may have known this, guessed that the McChord chutes would be so equipped, and he would probably would have been right (thanks to the efforts of the FBI).
Robert99

[georger 245]

That's why I am so interested in finding out if the MAC SOG jumpers in Nam were able to use essentially AM broadcast band very low power sigs to rendevous. Conventional wisdom would lead you to much higher freqs where small antennas work well. Maybe they thought out of the box and made it work.

377

[377 22]

Quote

That's why I am so interested in finding out if the MAC SOG jumpers in Nam were able to use essentially AM broadcast band very low power sigs to rendevous. Conventional wisdom would lead you to much higher freqs where small antennas work well. Maybe they thought out of the box and made it work.

377

Im willing to bet they didn't. Efficiency very very low.
Distance zero. Natural Interference. Selectivity.
Antenna issues. etc etc. You might as well conduct
SETI on AM ... or VLF for that matter. Out of the box
at those wavelengths would be the submarine vlf
nets which require power like a small M-class star
and underground antennas strung from the North
Pole to the South Pole! And rattle the teeth of
reindeer herds. Something that could tap
into that system and be heard for a relay back ..
that would be 'out of the box' at those low freqs
and cost the GNP of Portugal!

[377 22]

a Snowmman post from 2009:

Quote

1) http://www.don-valentine.com/...%20and%20Vietnam.htm

"When Delta was experimenting with infiltration methods for our recon teams, we tried using beacons to help assemble the team after they parachuted into the thick jungle. We packed all of the rucksacks into a bundle and rigged a radio beacon to the bundle with its antenna taped to one of the parachute suspension lines.

After the teams reached the ground, they were always scattered and disoriented. First of all, they had to survive a night tree landing in very tall trees, which is very risky, then they had to climb down the tree to reach the ground.

We issued each man a small civilian transistor radio to help them locate the beacon. We had the frequency range of the radio "stretched" so it would pick up the beacon signal. When you held the radio right side up with its narrow side pointing towards the beacon, the beacon signal was the loudest.

Unfortunately, either narrow side produced the same results so you could not tell which way was correct. The only way to know for sure was to walk a good distance and aim your radio again. If the signal was getting stronger, you were okay. If it was getting weaker, you had to turn around and go in the opposite direction.

It took three days to assemble an RT using this method. Delta dropped that idea and kept experimenting. Try as we might, we never came up with an effective way to surreptitiously insert an RT into a thick jungle canopy. The lurps had to find open spaces large enough for the chopper to land or blast an LZ with 2,000 pound bombs."

Link seems to be dead now.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Farflung 0]

This is what I would expect for a person on the ground with a small receiver, trying to DF something which is just as ‘lost’.

Cooper’s requirements would be different in that the DF unit is a car (knows where it is), roughly limited to roads, which sounds obvious, but drives the real need for azimuth accuracy. Which is relatively low in this application.

Initially you just need to know if you are heading towards Cooper and the road needs to head in that direction also. Aircraft and vessels don’t have this restriction.

After looking at the road network around Lake Merwin, I don’t see a massive advantage to having the lobes reduced to much less than 90 degrees. You only know if Cooper is fore or aft, then perhaps left or right of whatever road. It’s not like there are dozens of options or even dozens of miles between the roads.

From Lewis River Road (north side of Lake Merwin), you only have seven or eight options for traveling north. Once you’re on one of these roads, you really have left or right of the vehicle, then about two miles to walk to a parallel road. At that point you could haul out the walkie-talkie or honk the horn for such a short distance. But a very primitive system, used in a similar road network, appears to look like it could narrow things down to a few square miles.

No VC to dodge, no ground fire, no E&E stuff, unless that’s your normal mode of travel. Although it’s human nature to ‘gold plate’ everything, their budgets typically deliver something plastic, cheap and disposable. Look at your cell phone.

[377 22]

Good point about the lobes Farf. You wouldnt need a lot of accuracy until you got close. General right left front back indications could get you close. .. eventually.

And the horn honk and walkie talkie comm idea is good. Hadn't thought of that.

Where were you on Norjack night? Can you prove it?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[sailshaw 0]

377 You say
:
I'm going to look through my junkbox and see what I can come up with for a low power BC band beacon. Then a field test to check reception distance and DF-ability. A wire antenna is a good idea for the transmitter. Stay tuned.


Have you thought about the rescue beacon transmit/receive radio's used by mountain rescue skiers. They were good for short ranges but were cheep in those days ($100 to $)200 each.

I really don't think DB used radio beacons as I think he was and is a real loaner and was good at orienting and finding his way in the outback and mountains. He also probably jumped within 5 to 10 miles of where he left his car in North Vancouver.
As I have said before, I think he was long gone by mid-night and somewhere in Oregon preparing his four letters to the News Papers and left his DNA under the stamps/envelope flaps.
When are those FBI guys going to test the envelopes for the DNA and match with Sheridan?
They can then be well on their way to solving the crime. This is the only remaining evidence that the FBI has not looked into and it can solve the crime.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com

[377 22]

I think the avalanche beacons are too short range to be of use.

I actually agree with you that its unlikely that Cooper used radios. I just like to fantasize that he did.

Sheridan Peterson, a veteran skydiver and smoke jumper and ex Marine knew plenty about wilderness landings and egress. He had night jump experience too.

I sure wish he could be interviewed, even if to just get his perpective on what it would take to do the jump successfully and who in 1971 knew about 727s being jumpable.

Somewhere he is quoted recommending the use of a flashlight to illuminate your landing area. He KNOWS that is BS, but why would he say it?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.