377 22 #35751 November 21, 2012 Farflung wroteQuoteMy other choice was a Ten-Tec TT-920, which is a name a HAM would recognize as the Rolls Royce of Radio gear. Ahem... Georger is from Iowa where a guy named Art (not John) Collins made some mighty nice ham gear. He also made the ARC 58 or ARC 102 HF SSB radio that you used in your eight engined hell wagon. Ten Tec is revered but Collins is worshipped. Those Bendix-King av band "Horsey Talkies" are awesome Farf. I've used em. So many radio savvy folks on this forum. Why? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #35752 November 21, 2012 Jo wroteQuote I know the plane to car communication happened...I know the Caddy was set up that way. You are wrong Jo and you are so stubborn. When you are so very sure about something that is wrong, it makes folks seriously doubt the accuracy of your other recollections. You are claiming that Duane had a radio in the Caddy that could communicate with other CBers and also communicate with aircraft. That's just not feasible Jo. It's not something that a "CB man" could make or modify. It's akin to saying Duane made ice cubes in your toaster oven. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #35753 November 21, 2012 Bruce passed this on from GalenQuoteI've spent considerable time, probably between 100 and 150 hours at T-Bar, both on the shoreline and in boats between the wingdam of Caterpillar Island and the northern reaches of Tina's Bar. Tosaw and I were on his chartered expedition in 05' and again in 08'. In 05' Tosaw used a dive barge, crew of three hardhat divers, underwater camera, and some sounding devices. It was a pretty elaborate operation. Tosaw died in 09' after considerable illness. Wow. Tosaw spent some really serious money on his Cooper dive ops. THREE hard hat divers? Your average Joe Scuba doesn't have hard hat gear. Pro divers do and they don't come cheap. I hadn't realized Galen was so close to Tosaw. Maybe it was a law brotherhood thing, like a shark bond. BTW Bruce, it NOT a pilot chute, 100% certain. It's most likely a flare chute. You'd assume Tosaw had access to all the FBI evidence. Was there something in it that made him so sure Cooper splashed? A river landing was pretty unlikely if you look at the odds. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #35754 November 21, 2012 Quote Bruce passed this on from Galen Quote I've spent considerable time, probably between 100 and 150 hours at T-Bar, both on the shoreline and in boats between the wingdam of Caterpillar Island and the northern reaches of Tina's Bar. Tosaw and I were on his chartered expedition in 05' and again in 08'. In 05' Tosaw used a dive barge, crew of three hardhat divers, underwater camera, and some sounding devices. It was a pretty elaborate operation. Tosaw died in 09' after considerable illness. Wow. Tosaw spent some really serious money on his Cooper dive ops. THREE hard hat divers? Your average Joe Scuba doesn't have hard hat gear. Pro divers do and they don't come cheap. I hadn't realized Galen was so close to Tosaw. Maybe it was a law brotherhood thing, like a shark bond. BTW Bruce, it NOT a pilot chute, 100% certain. It's most likely a flare chute. You'd assume Tosaw had access to all the FBI evidence. Was there something in it that made him so sure Cooper splashed? A river landing was pretty unlikely if you look at the odds. 377 Poor suckers.. diving in the Columbia.. is diving by BRAILE.... did that trying to salvage a boat that hit a submerged piling...visibility SUCKED .. not fun.. not fun at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #35755 November 21, 2012 QuoteBruce passed this on from GalenQuoteI've spent considerable time, probably between 100 and 150 hours at T-Bar, both on the shoreline and in boats between the wingdam of Caterpillar Island and the northern reaches of Tina's Bar. Tosaw and I were on his chartered expedition in 05' and again in 08'. In 05' Tosaw used a dive barge, crew of three hardhat divers, underwater camera, and some sounding devices. It was a pretty elaborate operation. Tosaw died in 09' after considerable illness. Wow. Tosaw spent some really serious money on his Cooper dive ops. THREE hard hat divers? Your average Joe Scuba doesn't have hard hat gear. Pro divers do and they don't come cheap. I hadn't realized Galen was so close to Tosaw. Maybe it was a law brotherhood thing, like a shark bond. BTW Bruce, it NOT a pilot chute, 100% certain. It's most likely a flare chute. You'd assume Tosaw had access to all the FBI evidence. Was there something in it that made him so sure Cooper splashed? A river landing was pretty unlikely if you look at the odds. 377 I think it was the money find in 1980 that convinced Tosaw had gone in, in some area adjacent to the Columbia and bought it. He seemed convinced evidence would turn up inthe Tena Bar area, but also went further downstream closer to Frenchman's bar ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #35756 November 21, 2012 Three seven-seven, can you tell us what the difference is between a pilot chute and flare chute? What do they look like? And how can you tell that the pix I saw a few pages back of Coss holding some filmy babric was a flare chute? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #35757 November 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteBruce passed this on from GalenQuoteI've spent considerable time, probably between 100 and 150 hours at T-Bar, both on the shoreline and in boats between the wingdam of Caterpillar Island and the northern reaches of Tina's Bar. Tosaw and I were on his chartered expedition in 05' and again in 08'. In 05' Tosaw used a dive barge, crew of three hardhat divers, underwater camera, and some sounding devices. It was a pretty elaborate operation. Tosaw died in 09' after considerable illness. Wow. Tosaw spent some really serious money on his Cooper dive ops. THREE hard hat divers? Your average Joe Scuba doesn't have hard hat gear. Pro divers do and they don't come cheap. I hadn't realized Galen was so close to Tosaw. Maybe it was a law brotherhood thing, like a shark bond. Quote Galen has shared some remarkable stories about Richard Tosaw. I hadn't made the connection until Galen mentioned it that they both were lawyers. In addition, they both busted the chops of the FBI, with Galen suing them over the DB Cooper files in 2004 or so, while Tosaw was able to yank the Ingram money out of their grasp. They must have been quite a team at T-bar, tromping around in the mud. Bring in Al Fazio on the side and I sure wish I was there. Add a little tequila and red wine and you have one hell of a campfire time, if you catch my drift. ...and don't forget the mutilated cattle, too.... In the meantime, it's me and Galen at Fishtale Pub in Oly-WA, swapping stories about Marla, Tina, Jo, and any other woman that catches our imagination... Sigh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #35758 November 21, 2012 Quote There's a big difference between a toy and the real thing. See pic. I also notice I broke my promise about not commenting on the case, but this was more of an image request. Is this a flare chute or a pilot chute, Robert? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #35759 November 21, 2012 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=136195; Too small to be a bailout rig pilot chute. Look at the dimensions of the canopy compared to the hand that is holding it. Also, the type of pilot chute used in NB6 and NB8 rigs (MA1 pilot chute) doesn't even remotely resemble this. The pilot chutes of that era have a BIG spring sewn into and completely contained within the pilot chute structure. This spring remains compressed until the ripcord is pulled, then it launches the pilot chute out of the rig with considerable force. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=320&bih=416&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pilot+chute+ma1&oq=pilot+chute+ma1&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...22121.22461.0.23379.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1ac.1.JkuzSV6-dQM#i=0 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #35760 November 21, 2012 Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=136195; Too small to be a bailout rig pilot chute. Look at the dimensions of the canopy compared to the hand that is holding it. Also, the type of pilot chute used in NB6 and NB8 rigs (MA1 pilot chute) doesn't even remotely resemble this. The pilot chutes of that era have a BIG spring sewn into and completely contained within the pilot chute structure. This spring remains compressed until the ripcord is pulled, then it launches the pilot chute out of the rig with considerable force. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=320&bih=416&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pilot+chute+ma1&oq=pilot+chute+ma1&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...22121.22461.0.23379.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1ac.1.JkuzSV6-dQM#i=0 377 could this chute belong to a kids model rocket? they were pretty popular back then."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #35761 November 21, 2012 Quotecould this chute belong to a kids model rocket? they were pretty popular back then. Perhaps, but to my eye it looks a lot more like a flare chute. I taught an elementary school science class once a week for a semester during my engineering studies. It was a ghetto school and the rules were slack. Among other "dangerous" projects, we put together Estes brand model rockets and fired them from the school yard. Their chutes were much flimsier and lighter than what is shown one the Tacoma Chronicle photo. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #35762 November 21, 2012 Watch MA1 pilot chutes launch in this YouTube video. Skydivers often used two, to increase the chances of a clean launch into the slipstream. http://youtu.be/l_RYPx4iNUg As a young jumper I watched in amazement as a guy pulled his ripcord and the pilot chute launched weakly (worn spring). It bounced around on his back for about 5 seconds as he rocketed towards earth. Finally he rolled over a bit and the pilot chute emerged from the dead air on his back and caught the slipstream. Here is an example of a pilot chute hesitation, although of shorter duration than what I witnessed: http://youtu.be/bX9z-Gm8DO4 Back then (late 60s) MA1 pilot chutes were dirt cheap. I replaced mine a couple of times just to be sure I had one with a strong spring and good fabric. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #35763 November 21, 2012 Here is a military flare parachute for sale on eBay. http://bit.ly/10bPfdY 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #35764 November 21, 2012 QuoteHere is a military flare parachute for sale on eBay. http://bit.ly/10bPfdY 377 Inside a parachute flare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFDEZlBaWcE"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #35765 November 21, 2012 Quote Quote Here is a military flare parachute for sale on eBay. http://bit.ly/10bPfdY 377 Inside a parachute flare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFDEZlBaWcE Not saying that Tosaw's parachute flare --- if it is a parachute flare --- came from 305, but I would bet that dynamite sticks, I mean parachute flares, BTW.. A couple of us wondered before about a possible connection between titanium in flares and the tie -- I believe the answer was yes - that titanium can be found in flares. I'll find the source and post it. A long, long time ago...I can still remember.... some folks weighed in on how a flare from an airplane would have to look (i.e, wouldn't be red light, wouldn't shoot out in an arc, wouldn't etc, etc.)...but at that time (as now) I can still find videos of flares with an assortment of shapes, arcs, and colors depending on the conditions in which it was used. I just don't think anyone can be definitive on this subject. Personally I like to think of him killing two birds with one bomb, so to speak. But that's just me. As an aside...Whenever I think about the bomb it reminds me that the people on the plane probably did NOT know that it was a fake (if it was a fake), and might well have had images like the attached in their minds. I know we make this crime out to be all cool and sexy and fun -- and while I reserve my right to cynically wonder about Tina's role/actions/PTSD) -- in reality, it was likely a horrendous experience and Dan Cooper was a contemptible jerk.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #35766 November 21, 2012 Smokin99…. The disembodied keyboard of reason. Yep, we ‘think’ Cooper’s bomb was a fake based upon…. Nothing. LaPoint threatened his crew with a bomb that was a fake. McCoy displayed a hand grenade which was inert, but looked just like a grenade. Heady took his plane with a pistol in hand. That was a real pistol because he actually fired the thing in the aircraft. Byck also used a gun that was quite genuine. Except he didn’t want money, he wanted to assassinate President Nixon. This hero worship is a little vexing to me. I know one definition of a liberal is: “A conservative which hasn’t been robbed yet”. But this has long passed from crime and through history, to entertainment. There’s still a chance (statistically) that Cooper is still alive and certainly available for prosecution. But any discoveries or news doesn’t seem worthy of release unless it is near the anniversary date for some odd reason. If it was another type of crime or a medical discovery, I wonder if the same controls would be used. Like finding a cure for some disease, but waiting till the anniversary of its discovery to publish the findings, or finding out who kidnapped some missing person, but keeping it quiet till the book can be finalized. That is probably not considered too cool in those situations, by most people. So by virtue of the way this data is published, combined with the fact that Cooper could be alive, tells me this isn’t that serious, or the Mayans were correct about next month. If I “knew” someone living was DB Cooper, I would throw down the money to have his DNA tested then quietly let the FBI have the results. But that’s just me, if I “knew” someone was a criminal. But that never happens on this thread (cough… oh mah gawd did I just type that?...cough) so that’s a bad example. I wonder if anyone has an “I was robbed at gun/bomb point” story, and thinks the guy is a hero or cool. Hmmmm…. Don’t know, too complex to speculate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #35767 November 21, 2012 I have no doubt that Cooper terrified some of his victims. A credible bomb threat is scary as hell, and the crew must have been wondering if he would jump and wipe out all the witnesses by arranging a post exit detonation. It's just human nature to glorify low life thugs who pull off innovative crimes that didnt hurt or kill anyone. As time passes the fame and adoration increases and the disgust and disdain attenuates and almost disappears. Stealing money and threatening to blow people up isnt heroic, not even slightly. Cooper was brave as hell but there is a difference between brave and heroic. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #35768 November 21, 2012 QuoteWatch MA1 pilot chutes launch in this YouTube video. Skydivers often used two, to increase the chances of a clean launch into the slipstream. http://youtu.be/l_RYPx4iNUg As a young jumper I watched in amazement as a guy pulled his ripcord and the pilot chute launched weakly (worn spring). It bounced around on his back for about 5 seconds as he rocketed towards earth. Finally he rolled over a bit and the pilot chute emerged from the dead air on his back and caught the slipstream. Here is an example of a pilot chute hesitation, although of shorter duration than what I witnessed: http://youtu.be/bX9z-Gm8DO4 Back then (late 60s) MA1 pilot chutes were dirt cheap. I replaced mine a couple of times just to be sure I had one with a strong spring and good fabric. 377 I am pretty sure the rig he selected had a surplus MA-1 or my persaonal favorite the larger NAVY version with the round heavy duty fabric on top of the pilot shute being about twice as large as the USAF Version. I am pretty sure one of my old school rigs out in the loft has one of those... with one of each type attached to the bridle. It was last jumped into MacGregor Lake at Lost Prairie a few years ago. As a side note.. the pilot chute would STILL be attached to the bridle 40+ years later.. that is a far heavier NYLON material than the Nylon rip stop material that covers the spring and even in the sun it would not degrade like the rip stop would....oh.. and the spring being metal and a couple ft high.. would NOT float if it was in the water. When doing water jumps and getting my butt and all my stuff out of the water and into the boat, it is a pain to be pulling my old round canopies out of the water. Any guess what is deepest in the water and is a pain to haul out???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #35769 November 21, 2012 QuoteNot saying that Tosaw's parachute flare --- if it is a parachute flare --- came from 305, but I would bet that dynamite sticks, I mean parachute flares, came in red too. They do. I've seen marine parachute flare containers in red, natural aluminum and orange. The gun launched ones are short and look roughly like big shotgun shells. The self launched ones are much longer cylinders and usually have labelling and firing instructions on the exterior. Have a look! https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_mss=marine+parachute+f&tok=ww1pyG3keMpdhdQSDmV7Iw&pq=sceptical&cp=22&gs_id=2o&xhr=t&q=marine+parachute+flares&safe=off&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS453US454&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bpcl=38897761&ion=1&biw=1344&bih=698&wrapid=tljp1353460298919054&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=exqtUJKCOeOUiALe5ICQAw We used to shoot off time expired marine parachute flares on 4th of July. The big ones go surprisingly high. They provide a very visible signal but they don't light things up on the ground until they get pretty low. A friend of mine was a PJ with an USAF Air Rescue Squadron. They had HUGE illumination flares that had parachutes. They were deployed using a static line. I saw some deployed by a USAF Air Rescue Herc during a sinking rescue at night off Pt Reyes CA in the 1970s. They burned bright white and lit things up spectacularly. He told me they cost the govt over $5000 each. It was worth it in this case, they found the swimming crewmen at night in heavy seas and managed to drop two rafts tethered together with a very long line upwind of the survivors. The flight path during the raft deployment was across the wind line. As the tethered rafts drifted towards the survivors the tether line came right to them and they managed to get into one of the rafts. They NEVER would have been spotted by surface vessels in those conditions. The aircraft commander of the Herc really did a superb job. His name was Capt. Ted Schindler, now retired from the 129th ARS. Fishermen still regard him and his crew as a heroes. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #35770 November 21, 2012 RobertMBlevins continues to comment and miss the point with: “Himmelsbach gave a reason he believes the Cooper bomb was a fake. He said dynamite is not red in color, but is the color of a manila envelope. He said in his career he has handled dynamite many times...” There you go RobertMBlevins, if anyone ever menaces you with a bomb made of ‘red’ dynamite, you can go full on, Chuck Norris and give him one of those fatal, 90 degree head twists that will drop him like a sack of wet cement, and fulfill your hero fetish in one seamless action. That’s the definition of Win-Win. That is, as long as no one ever lives around you for the rest of your life. Could you imagine what every conversation would lead to? Hi, I’m RobertMBlevins, infamous thwarter of that bomb wielding psycho, I’m sure you’ve heard of me. Yeah, he tries to show me the old ‘red’ dynamite routine, and I showed him the meaning of the word….’respect’. Excuse me miss, how much is the ‘red’ cabbage? I think I’m ready to try eating that again, now that I’m over my near death experience with a bomb menacing lunatic. You see, dynamite isn’t red, and I knew that, so I put him in a sleeper hold, then Pow! Sock-O! I saved the day. What? Two for a $1.39? What does that have to do with dynamite? Have you read the news? Speaking of ‘red’, I don’t like to repeat myself, but I was the guy who knew dynamite wasn’t ‘red’ and took down that madman. I don’t normally give out autographs but in this case, I’ll make an exception. No, I don’t want the supplemental liability insurance. I think there’s trouble, right here in river city, with a capital T, and that rhymes with D, and that stands for… Dynamite…. which isn’t ‘red’ so I single handedly took down a force of many. What a cute baby you have, and with such rosy ‘red’ cheeks. You know that dynamite isn’t really red? Well… it isn’t, and I should know… hey where are you running to? Hey! There’s a red traffic light, have I ever told you how I knew that dynamite isn’t…. oh this is your stop? OK, heck I’ll get off too, so as I was about to say…. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #35771 November 21, 2012 QuoteI wonder if anyone has an “I was robbed at gun/bomb point” story, and thinks the guy is a hero or cool. Hmmmm…. Don’t know, too complex to speculate. Someone I know was on the other side of the gun pictured here. http://georgiabankrobbery.com/2008/07/pinehurst-10192007/ She said that LE - including GBI - badly botched case where there was tons of evidence including, but not limited to, a full grease or sweat handprint that she said LE said they could not process. In fact, she watched as they wiped it off. They found the get-away car with money in Atlanta, but they screwed up on some technicality with that and, if I'm not mistaken, had most of that evidence thrown out so charges were dropped against all but one person. Don't know why with the video and witnesses - guess the DA was a wuss. The one person who was indicted apparently took off and was actually extradited from Texas on an outstanding warrant related to the robbery earlier this year. Not sure what happened with that. I don't know if the FBI was involved or not - for some reason I'm thinking she told me they were not, because I remember being surprised about that -- since I thought they were usually called in on bank robberies. I might be wrong on that. It might be that they just weren't there during the immediate time period following the robbery. She told me that while the guy had the gun pointed at her, she was very scared and shaking at first. In addition to having guns pointed at her, the robbers were acting/talking violently and seemed to have a personal vendetta regarding race/banks/loans. In short, she knew, without a doubt in her mind, that she was going to die that day. So she started praying that her kids would be okay. And all of a sudden, she wasn't scared at all anymore. True story.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #35772 November 21, 2012 Quote Quote Farflung says in part: ***'Smokin99…. The disembodied keyboard of reason. Yep, we ‘think’ Cooper’s bomb was a fake based upon…. Nothing...' Almost, but not quite nothing. Himmelsbach: Quote 'Himmelsbach gave a reason he believes the Cooper bomb was a fake. He said dynamite is not red in color, but is the color of a manila envelope. He said in his career he has handled dynamite many times...' Yeah you've quoted that before. Though I don't know why, since, in reality, it would seem that Himmelsbach did not know his dynamite from a hole in the ground. I and others have posted several pictures of red dynamite of roughly the same shape. dimension, and did I mention COLOR (RED) of the description depicted in the transcripts. Yet you persist.So maybe none of the dynamite Himmelsbach handled was red, but there was red dynamite. Could it have been fake...sure...I tend to think there is credence in the flare idea. But the fact that it was RED is NOT proof that it was not dynamite.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #35773 November 21, 2012 Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=136195; Too small to be a bailout rig pilot chute. Look at the dimensions of the canopy compared to the hand that is holding it. Also, the type of pilot chute used in NB6 and NB8 rigs (MA1 pilot chute) doesn't even remotely resemble this. The pilot chutes of that era have a BIG spring sewn into and completely contained within the pilot chute structure. This spring remains compressed until the ripcord is pulled, then it launches the pilot chute out of the rig with considerable force. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=320&bih=416&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pilot+chute+ma1&oq=pilot+chute+ma1&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...22121.22461.0.23379.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1ac.1.JkuzSV6-dQM#i=0 377 The pilot chutes for the NB6, and presumably the NB8, have another unusual feature that makes them easy to identify. At the top of the NB6 pilot chute is a hole through which a stud mounted on the bottom of the pilot chute spring assembly is inserted during the packing process. This stud in turn fits into the container flaps through holes and the third rip cord pin from the top is inserted through the stud. This keeps the pilot chute compressed. It also means that the rip cord must be pulled for the parachute to function. Otherwise, the canopy remains attached to the harness by means of the risers and to the container by means of the pilot chute. The parachute flares that I have seen in artillery rounds were all white and used for illumination purposes. I might add that this was a long time ago. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 245 #35774 November 21, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Farflung says in part: ***'Smokin99…. The disembodied keyboard of reason. Yep, we ‘think’ Cooper’s bomb was a fake based upon…. Nothing...' Almost, but not quite nothing. Himmelsbach: Quote 'Himmelsbach gave a reason he believes the Cooper bomb was a fake. He said dynamite is not red in color, but is the color of a manila envelope. He said in his career he has handled dynamite many times...' Yeah you've quoted that before. Though I don't know why, since, in reality, it would seem that Himmelsbach did not know his dynamite from a hole in the ground. I and others have posted several pictures of red dynamite of roughly the same shape. dimension, and did I mention COLOR (RED) of the description depicted in the transcripts. Yet you persist.So maybe none of the dynamite Himmelsbach handled was red, but there was red dynamite. Could it have been fake...sure...I tend to think there is credence in the flare idea. But the fact that it was RED is NOT proof that it was not dynamite. all depended on where you got it and what type - however: Tina described the color as close to the bright red of her uniform. Therein is the distinction H was keying on - according to H. The same may not be true of road flares - Ive never seen a road/railroad flare that wasnt red and railroad flares had a rounded strike cap on one end - The sticks Tina saw had wires coming out of them, or so she thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #35775 November 21, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Farflung says in part: ***'Smokin99…. The disembodied keyboard of reason. Yep, we ‘think’ Cooper’s bomb was a fake based upon…. Nothing...' Almost, but not quite nothing. Himmelsbach: Quote 'Himmelsbach gave a reason he believes the Cooper bomb was a fake. He said dynamite is not red in color, but is the color of a manila envelope. He said in his career he has handled dynamite many times...' Yeah you've quoted that before. Though I don't know why, since, in reality, it would seem that Himmelsbach did not know his dynamite from a hole in the ground. I and others have posted several pictures of red dynamite of roughly the same shape. dimension, and did I mention COLOR (RED) of the description depicted in the transcripts. Yet you persist.So maybe none of the dynamite Himmelsbach handled was red, but there was red dynamite. Could it have been fake...sure...I tend to think there is credence in the flare idea. But the fact that it was RED is NOT proof that it was not dynamite. all depended on where you got it and what type - however: Tina described the color as close to the bright red of her uniform. Therein is the distinction H was keying on - according to H. The same may not be true of road flares - Ive never seen a road/railroad flare that wasnt red and railroad flares had a rounded strike cap on one end - The sticks Tina saw had wires coming out of them, or so she thought. If I'm not mistaken the plastic cap comes off as it is the striker. just point that part to the back of the suitcase, here is a flare bomb"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1426 1427 1428 1429 1430 1431 1432 1433 1434 1435 1436 Next Page 1431 of 2571 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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BruceSmith 3 #35758 November 21, 2012 Quote There's a big difference between a toy and the real thing. See pic. I also notice I broke my promise about not commenting on the case, but this was more of an image request. Is this a flare chute or a pilot chute, Robert? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #35759 November 21, 2012 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=136195; Too small to be a bailout rig pilot chute. Look at the dimensions of the canopy compared to the hand that is holding it. Also, the type of pilot chute used in NB6 and NB8 rigs (MA1 pilot chute) doesn't even remotely resemble this. The pilot chutes of that era have a BIG spring sewn into and completely contained within the pilot chute structure. This spring remains compressed until the ripcord is pulled, then it launches the pilot chute out of the rig with considerable force. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=320&bih=416&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pilot+chute+ma1&oq=pilot+chute+ma1&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...22121.22461.0.23379.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1ac.1.JkuzSV6-dQM#i=0 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #35760 November 21, 2012 Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=136195; Too small to be a bailout rig pilot chute. Look at the dimensions of the canopy compared to the hand that is holding it. Also, the type of pilot chute used in NB6 and NB8 rigs (MA1 pilot chute) doesn't even remotely resemble this. The pilot chutes of that era have a BIG spring sewn into and completely contained within the pilot chute structure. This spring remains compressed until the ripcord is pulled, then it launches the pilot chute out of the rig with considerable force. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=320&bih=416&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pilot+chute+ma1&oq=pilot+chute+ma1&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...22121.22461.0.23379.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1ac.1.JkuzSV6-dQM#i=0 377 could this chute belong to a kids model rocket? they were pretty popular back then."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #35761 November 21, 2012 Quotecould this chute belong to a kids model rocket? they were pretty popular back then. Perhaps, but to my eye it looks a lot more like a flare chute. I taught an elementary school science class once a week for a semester during my engineering studies. It was a ghetto school and the rules were slack. Among other "dangerous" projects, we put together Estes brand model rockets and fired them from the school yard. Their chutes were much flimsier and lighter than what is shown one the Tacoma Chronicle photo. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #35762 November 21, 2012 Watch MA1 pilot chutes launch in this YouTube video. Skydivers often used two, to increase the chances of a clean launch into the slipstream. http://youtu.be/l_RYPx4iNUg As a young jumper I watched in amazement as a guy pulled his ripcord and the pilot chute launched weakly (worn spring). It bounced around on his back for about 5 seconds as he rocketed towards earth. Finally he rolled over a bit and the pilot chute emerged from the dead air on his back and caught the slipstream. Here is an example of a pilot chute hesitation, although of shorter duration than what I witnessed: http://youtu.be/bX9z-Gm8DO4 Back then (late 60s) MA1 pilot chutes were dirt cheap. I replaced mine a couple of times just to be sure I had one with a strong spring and good fabric. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #35763 November 21, 2012 Here is a military flare parachute for sale on eBay. http://bit.ly/10bPfdY 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #35764 November 21, 2012 QuoteHere is a military flare parachute for sale on eBay. http://bit.ly/10bPfdY 377 Inside a parachute flare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFDEZlBaWcE"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #35765 November 21, 2012 Quote Quote Here is a military flare parachute for sale on eBay. http://bit.ly/10bPfdY 377 Inside a parachute flare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFDEZlBaWcE Not saying that Tosaw's parachute flare --- if it is a parachute flare --- came from 305, but I would bet that dynamite sticks, I mean parachute flares, BTW.. A couple of us wondered before about a possible connection between titanium in flares and the tie -- I believe the answer was yes - that titanium can be found in flares. I'll find the source and post it. A long, long time ago...I can still remember.... some folks weighed in on how a flare from an airplane would have to look (i.e, wouldn't be red light, wouldn't shoot out in an arc, wouldn't etc, etc.)...but at that time (as now) I can still find videos of flares with an assortment of shapes, arcs, and colors depending on the conditions in which it was used. I just don't think anyone can be definitive on this subject. Personally I like to think of him killing two birds with one bomb, so to speak. But that's just me. As an aside...Whenever I think about the bomb it reminds me that the people on the plane probably did NOT know that it was a fake (if it was a fake), and might well have had images like the attached in their minds. I know we make this crime out to be all cool and sexy and fun -- and while I reserve my right to cynically wonder about Tina's role/actions/PTSD) -- in reality, it was likely a horrendous experience and Dan Cooper was a contemptible jerk.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #35766 November 21, 2012 Smokin99…. The disembodied keyboard of reason. Yep, we ‘think’ Cooper’s bomb was a fake based upon…. Nothing. LaPoint threatened his crew with a bomb that was a fake. McCoy displayed a hand grenade which was inert, but looked just like a grenade. Heady took his plane with a pistol in hand. That was a real pistol because he actually fired the thing in the aircraft. Byck also used a gun that was quite genuine. Except he didn’t want money, he wanted to assassinate President Nixon. This hero worship is a little vexing to me. I know one definition of a liberal is: “A conservative which hasn’t been robbed yet”. But this has long passed from crime and through history, to entertainment. There’s still a chance (statistically) that Cooper is still alive and certainly available for prosecution. But any discoveries or news doesn’t seem worthy of release unless it is near the anniversary date for some odd reason. If it was another type of crime or a medical discovery, I wonder if the same controls would be used. Like finding a cure for some disease, but waiting till the anniversary of its discovery to publish the findings, or finding out who kidnapped some missing person, but keeping it quiet till the book can be finalized. That is probably not considered too cool in those situations, by most people. So by virtue of the way this data is published, combined with the fact that Cooper could be alive, tells me this isn’t that serious, or the Mayans were correct about next month. If I “knew” someone living was DB Cooper, I would throw down the money to have his DNA tested then quietly let the FBI have the results. But that’s just me, if I “knew” someone was a criminal. But that never happens on this thread (cough… oh mah gawd did I just type that?...cough) so that’s a bad example. I wonder if anyone has an “I was robbed at gun/bomb point” story, and thinks the guy is a hero or cool. Hmmmm…. Don’t know, too complex to speculate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #35767 November 21, 2012 I have no doubt that Cooper terrified some of his victims. A credible bomb threat is scary as hell, and the crew must have been wondering if he would jump and wipe out all the witnesses by arranging a post exit detonation. It's just human nature to glorify low life thugs who pull off innovative crimes that didnt hurt or kill anyone. As time passes the fame and adoration increases and the disgust and disdain attenuates and almost disappears. Stealing money and threatening to blow people up isnt heroic, not even slightly. Cooper was brave as hell but there is a difference between brave and heroic. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #35768 November 21, 2012 QuoteWatch MA1 pilot chutes launch in this YouTube video. Skydivers often used two, to increase the chances of a clean launch into the slipstream. http://youtu.be/l_RYPx4iNUg As a young jumper I watched in amazement as a guy pulled his ripcord and the pilot chute launched weakly (worn spring). It bounced around on his back for about 5 seconds as he rocketed towards earth. Finally he rolled over a bit and the pilot chute emerged from the dead air on his back and caught the slipstream. Here is an example of a pilot chute hesitation, although of shorter duration than what I witnessed: http://youtu.be/bX9z-Gm8DO4 Back then (late 60s) MA1 pilot chutes were dirt cheap. I replaced mine a couple of times just to be sure I had one with a strong spring and good fabric. 377 I am pretty sure the rig he selected had a surplus MA-1 or my persaonal favorite the larger NAVY version with the round heavy duty fabric on top of the pilot shute being about twice as large as the USAF Version. I am pretty sure one of my old school rigs out in the loft has one of those... with one of each type attached to the bridle. It was last jumped into MacGregor Lake at Lost Prairie a few years ago. As a side note.. the pilot chute would STILL be attached to the bridle 40+ years later.. that is a far heavier NYLON material than the Nylon rip stop material that covers the spring and even in the sun it would not degrade like the rip stop would....oh.. and the spring being metal and a couple ft high.. would NOT float if it was in the water. When doing water jumps and getting my butt and all my stuff out of the water and into the boat, it is a pain to be pulling my old round canopies out of the water. Any guess what is deepest in the water and is a pain to haul out???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #35769 November 21, 2012 QuoteNot saying that Tosaw's parachute flare --- if it is a parachute flare --- came from 305, but I would bet that dynamite sticks, I mean parachute flares, came in red too. They do. I've seen marine parachute flare containers in red, natural aluminum and orange. The gun launched ones are short and look roughly like big shotgun shells. The self launched ones are much longer cylinders and usually have labelling and firing instructions on the exterior. Have a look! https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_mss=marine+parachute+f&tok=ww1pyG3keMpdhdQSDmV7Iw&pq=sceptical&cp=22&gs_id=2o&xhr=t&q=marine+parachute+flares&safe=off&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS453US454&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bpcl=38897761&ion=1&biw=1344&bih=698&wrapid=tljp1353460298919054&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=exqtUJKCOeOUiALe5ICQAw We used to shoot off time expired marine parachute flares on 4th of July. The big ones go surprisingly high. They provide a very visible signal but they don't light things up on the ground until they get pretty low. A friend of mine was a PJ with an USAF Air Rescue Squadron. They had HUGE illumination flares that had parachutes. They were deployed using a static line. I saw some deployed by a USAF Air Rescue Herc during a sinking rescue at night off Pt Reyes CA in the 1970s. They burned bright white and lit things up spectacularly. He told me they cost the govt over $5000 each. It was worth it in this case, they found the swimming crewmen at night in heavy seas and managed to drop two rafts tethered together with a very long line upwind of the survivors. The flight path during the raft deployment was across the wind line. As the tethered rafts drifted towards the survivors the tether line came right to them and they managed to get into one of the rafts. They NEVER would have been spotted by surface vessels in those conditions. The aircraft commander of the Herc really did a superb job. His name was Capt. Ted Schindler, now retired from the 129th ARS. Fishermen still regard him and his crew as a heroes. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #35770 November 21, 2012 RobertMBlevins continues to comment and miss the point with: “Himmelsbach gave a reason he believes the Cooper bomb was a fake. He said dynamite is not red in color, but is the color of a manila envelope. He said in his career he has handled dynamite many times...” There you go RobertMBlevins, if anyone ever menaces you with a bomb made of ‘red’ dynamite, you can go full on, Chuck Norris and give him one of those fatal, 90 degree head twists that will drop him like a sack of wet cement, and fulfill your hero fetish in one seamless action. That’s the definition of Win-Win. That is, as long as no one ever lives around you for the rest of your life. Could you imagine what every conversation would lead to? Hi, I’m RobertMBlevins, infamous thwarter of that bomb wielding psycho, I’m sure you’ve heard of me. Yeah, he tries to show me the old ‘red’ dynamite routine, and I showed him the meaning of the word….’respect’. Excuse me miss, how much is the ‘red’ cabbage? I think I’m ready to try eating that again, now that I’m over my near death experience with a bomb menacing lunatic. You see, dynamite isn’t red, and I knew that, so I put him in a sleeper hold, then Pow! Sock-O! I saved the day. What? Two for a $1.39? What does that have to do with dynamite? Have you read the news? Speaking of ‘red’, I don’t like to repeat myself, but I was the guy who knew dynamite wasn’t ‘red’ and took down that madman. I don’t normally give out autographs but in this case, I’ll make an exception. No, I don’t want the supplemental liability insurance. I think there’s trouble, right here in river city, with a capital T, and that rhymes with D, and that stands for… Dynamite…. which isn’t ‘red’ so I single handedly took down a force of many. What a cute baby you have, and with such rosy ‘red’ cheeks. You know that dynamite isn’t really red? Well… it isn’t, and I should know… hey where are you running to? Hey! There’s a red traffic light, have I ever told you how I knew that dynamite isn’t…. oh this is your stop? OK, heck I’ll get off too, so as I was about to say…. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #35771 November 21, 2012 QuoteI wonder if anyone has an “I was robbed at gun/bomb point” story, and thinks the guy is a hero or cool. Hmmmm…. Don’t know, too complex to speculate. Someone I know was on the other side of the gun pictured here. http://georgiabankrobbery.com/2008/07/pinehurst-10192007/ She said that LE - including GBI - badly botched case where there was tons of evidence including, but not limited to, a full grease or sweat handprint that she said LE said they could not process. In fact, she watched as they wiped it off. They found the get-away car with money in Atlanta, but they screwed up on some technicality with that and, if I'm not mistaken, had most of that evidence thrown out so charges were dropped against all but one person. Don't know why with the video and witnesses - guess the DA was a wuss. The one person who was indicted apparently took off and was actually extradited from Texas on an outstanding warrant related to the robbery earlier this year. Not sure what happened with that. I don't know if the FBI was involved or not - for some reason I'm thinking she told me they were not, because I remember being surprised about that -- since I thought they were usually called in on bank robberies. I might be wrong on that. It might be that they just weren't there during the immediate time period following the robbery. She told me that while the guy had the gun pointed at her, she was very scared and shaking at first. In addition to having guns pointed at her, the robbers were acting/talking violently and seemed to have a personal vendetta regarding race/banks/loans. In short, she knew, without a doubt in her mind, that she was going to die that day. So she started praying that her kids would be okay. And all of a sudden, she wasn't scared at all anymore. True story.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #35772 November 21, 2012 Quote Quote Farflung says in part: ***'Smokin99…. The disembodied keyboard of reason. Yep, we ‘think’ Cooper’s bomb was a fake based upon…. Nothing...' Almost, but not quite nothing. Himmelsbach: Quote 'Himmelsbach gave a reason he believes the Cooper bomb was a fake. He said dynamite is not red in color, but is the color of a manila envelope. He said in his career he has handled dynamite many times...' Yeah you've quoted that before. Though I don't know why, since, in reality, it would seem that Himmelsbach did not know his dynamite from a hole in the ground. I and others have posted several pictures of red dynamite of roughly the same shape. dimension, and did I mention COLOR (RED) of the description depicted in the transcripts. Yet you persist.So maybe none of the dynamite Himmelsbach handled was red, but there was red dynamite. Could it have been fake...sure...I tend to think there is credence in the flare idea. But the fact that it was RED is NOT proof that it was not dynamite.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #35773 November 21, 2012 Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=136195; Too small to be a bailout rig pilot chute. Look at the dimensions of the canopy compared to the hand that is holding it. Also, the type of pilot chute used in NB6 and NB8 rigs (MA1 pilot chute) doesn't even remotely resemble this. The pilot chutes of that era have a BIG spring sewn into and completely contained within the pilot chute structure. This spring remains compressed until the ripcord is pulled, then it launches the pilot chute out of the rig with considerable force. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=320&bih=416&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pilot+chute+ma1&oq=pilot+chute+ma1&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...22121.22461.0.23379.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1ac.1.JkuzSV6-dQM#i=0 377 The pilot chutes for the NB6, and presumably the NB8, have another unusual feature that makes them easy to identify. At the top of the NB6 pilot chute is a hole through which a stud mounted on the bottom of the pilot chute spring assembly is inserted during the packing process. This stud in turn fits into the container flaps through holes and the third rip cord pin from the top is inserted through the stud. This keeps the pilot chute compressed. It also means that the rip cord must be pulled for the parachute to function. Otherwise, the canopy remains attached to the harness by means of the risers and to the container by means of the pilot chute. The parachute flares that I have seen in artillery rounds were all white and used for illumination purposes. I might add that this was a long time ago. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 245 #35774 November 21, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Farflung says in part: ***'Smokin99…. The disembodied keyboard of reason. Yep, we ‘think’ Cooper’s bomb was a fake based upon…. Nothing...' Almost, but not quite nothing. Himmelsbach: Quote 'Himmelsbach gave a reason he believes the Cooper bomb was a fake. He said dynamite is not red in color, but is the color of a manila envelope. He said in his career he has handled dynamite many times...' Yeah you've quoted that before. Though I don't know why, since, in reality, it would seem that Himmelsbach did not know his dynamite from a hole in the ground. I and others have posted several pictures of red dynamite of roughly the same shape. dimension, and did I mention COLOR (RED) of the description depicted in the transcripts. Yet you persist.So maybe none of the dynamite Himmelsbach handled was red, but there was red dynamite. Could it have been fake...sure...I tend to think there is credence in the flare idea. But the fact that it was RED is NOT proof that it was not dynamite. all depended on where you got it and what type - however: Tina described the color as close to the bright red of her uniform. Therein is the distinction H was keying on - according to H. The same may not be true of road flares - Ive never seen a road/railroad flare that wasnt red and railroad flares had a rounded strike cap on one end - The sticks Tina saw had wires coming out of them, or so she thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #35775 November 21, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Farflung says in part: ***'Smokin99…. The disembodied keyboard of reason. Yep, we ‘think’ Cooper’s bomb was a fake based upon…. Nothing...' Almost, but not quite nothing. Himmelsbach: Quote 'Himmelsbach gave a reason he believes the Cooper bomb was a fake. He said dynamite is not red in color, but is the color of a manila envelope. He said in his career he has handled dynamite many times...' Yeah you've quoted that before. Though I don't know why, since, in reality, it would seem that Himmelsbach did not know his dynamite from a hole in the ground. I and others have posted several pictures of red dynamite of roughly the same shape. dimension, and did I mention COLOR (RED) of the description depicted in the transcripts. Yet you persist.So maybe none of the dynamite Himmelsbach handled was red, but there was red dynamite. Could it have been fake...sure...I tend to think there is credence in the flare idea. But the fact that it was RED is NOT proof that it was not dynamite. all depended on where you got it and what type - however: Tina described the color as close to the bright red of her uniform. Therein is the distinction H was keying on - according to H. The same may not be true of road flares - Ive never seen a road/railroad flare that wasnt red and railroad flares had a rounded strike cap on one end - The sticks Tina saw had wires coming out of them, or so she thought. If I'm not mistaken the plastic cap comes off as it is the striker. just point that part to the back of the suitcase, here is a flare bomb"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
