mrshutter45 21
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georger 244
Bottom line: My gut tells me that when you approach people cold about a crime that happened 40 years ago...
And the first thing they do is start accusing each other...
That this is not a good sign.
And the first thing they do is start accusing each other...
That this is not a good sign.
And the MIRACLE of it all is you just stumbled into it,
based on your gut, rather quickly, and You have
found DB Cooper where the FBI and others could not
find DB Cooper in 40 years, with one of the most
massive searches in history!
Your work and your book are deserving of a Nobel
Prize and Congressional-Presidential recognition.
Let me see if I cant get the ball rolling for you in
that direction ...
georger 244
QuoteQuoteMaybe. But if that is true then he was not worried about beind ID'd. When you want to get away with a crime before it is committed, don't you want to do everything beforehand to ensure success.
The dress doesn't fit. But...it may be inconsequential.
I asked a question earlier -- Why wasn't Cooper afraid of being recognized? You have to remember, in terms of dress, the early 70s were just an extension of the crazy 60s. No such thing as a wardrobe malfunction back then. Nobody really cared how anybody dressed back then. We were just starting to recover from the withdrawals caused by free love, sit-ins, love-ins, psychedic shirts, and Woodstock. I'm betting DBC's outdated apparel didn't even get a second look.
But I still keep thinking why he didn't try to cover his face or make an attempt to disguise himself in some way. He just didn't seem to even be concerned about it. Why? Maybe the disguise was already in place -- a complete makeover or facelift before he got there, maybe? Or maybe he wasn't from here, he lived far, far away, from some remote location and figured the chances of someone recognizing him were slim to none. But you ask, how then did he know where Tacoma was? He must be from here then. Maybe not. Maybe he could have come around weeks or months earlier (disguised), cased the joint, then flown over the area several times to get the lay of the land -- all the while planning every detail of his sordid deed.
If he had worked for Boeing or Northwest in the past, don't you think someone(s) somewhere along the way would have recognized him? He had to fill out a job application, he had to go to the job interview, he had to pick up his paycheck, he had to drop by Human Resourcers, he had to go to work. Then the DBC composites were on every newspaper and TV screen around the world. If the composite sketches were anywhere close, don't you think someone, somewhere in the Boeing or Northwest Airline ranks would have recognized him?
Blevins, please do not respond to this post. Nobody wants your 20 paragraphs of regurgitated, broken- record, singing-the-praises of "KC and the Sunshine Band."
MeyerLouie
Lets just get him a Pulitzer/Congressional Medal or
Nobel Prize with Presidential Recognition he
deserves, and get this over with!
Who is Blevins' State Senator?
georger 244
Quote
A second instinct takes over and that is why he avoided being shot in the event they had sharp shooters out there, but the windows are basically bullet proof.
A sniper was not going to fire randomly at a window with the blinds pulled down - innocent people were on that plane.
Whoever Cooper was, he took measures to avoid getting gunned down. Yes he did by pulling 2 of the blinds down. I did NOT even know this was where the plane was and I knew nothing about the crime.
That is human instinct - to avoid being shot - he pulled down the blinds in the seats he was sitting at. Yea, I knew this but I never read anything about it that I am aware of. Just a comment he made at the airport about 2 blinds being pulled down. He actually mentioned this on the back side of the airport, but I didn't realize he was talking about a hijacked plane and that he was the skyjacker.
The twentys he took back or retrieve from a hiding place were damaged - so he wanted to get rid of the (Probably so I wouldn't see them). This was in 1979. At that time he had realized he had a life and he wanted that life.
I was easy to fool.
Carrying criminating evidence. That is why he had me stay in the car twice. He was unloaded anything that was damaged.
Then when we cross the river and he head East on along the river - and we get down to a road that would have gone to Hood River, he turns around and asked me if I would like to go to Tahoe. I asked if we could afford it and he told me they gave him a cash bonus at the meeting. THERE where NO Cash bonuses paid.
His not letting me watch TV about the crime is because it had only been a few months and he was afraid I would put the things he did and said together. I would get suspicious and call the police - this was 8 yrs after the crime. I was pretty gullible.
I believe he really really did it.
Lets just get you a Congressional Medal too ...
along with Blevins ... and get this over with!
Then there will be two DB Coopers. And you will
get the recognition you so richly deserve, and wont
have to drive people crazy wirth emails and phone
calls in the middle of the night -
Who is your State Senator?
At the very least you and Blevins belong on the CNN
Heros program.
Consider it done!
Robert99 50
ML writes:
I checked out the simulation of the flight, and I've talked to a couple of folks. From what I've gathered, it seems that even on a cloudy, rainy, stormy night, you can still make out the city lights -- Vancouver, Battleground, even Camas.
R99 replies:
George Nuttall's book, page 95, quotes Himmelsbach as saying that, "There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights."
ML writes:
Why do I say this? Because he was cool as a cucumber -- nerves of steel. He didn't get rattled -- about anything -- at this time. In addition, he didn't seem stressed, even in the least, about the upcoming jump nor about the aft stairs problem.
R99 replies:
Richard Tosaw's book, page 29, states that when Tina told Cooper about the delay in refueling, "He exploded. He yelled and swore that this was impossible - it was a stall and he was going to blow up the plane. During his hysteria, he kept hitting his fist against his hand and in his rage Tina held her breath in fear that he might explode the bomb. He was screaming that refueling a 727 shouldn't take more than 20 minutes and that a frozen nozzle in Seattle was ridiculous. He opened his briefcase and Tina saw the red sticks and battery as he grabbed hold of the wire while he was shouting."
ML writes:
The pilot said the plane could not take off with the aft stairs down. No problem, he calmly instructed the pilots to go ahead and take off with the aft stairs up -- like it was no big deal.
R99 replies:
From Tosaw, page 28, Cooper was told that it would not be safe for the aircraft to take off with the staircase down. "When Cooper was told this he told Tina that it was safe but that he wasn't going to argue the point and would lower the staircase later."
Among other things, Tina stated that Cooper put on the back pack parachute like he had previous experience doing so.
During the hijacking, Cooper demonstrated that he had general knowledge of the 727. He had specific knowledge about the flap setting, airspeed, and altitude that he specified.
Cooper was also knew that the aft stairs could be lowered in flight. That knowledge was relatively closely held at that time.
Cooper did have some trouble with lowering the stairs. This may mean nothing more than that the control panel for the aft stairs may not have been familiar to him. If the aft stairs are going to be lowered routinely, they would probably have a different control panel with more capabilities.
In addition, the stairs themselves would probably be modified from the commercial airliner version. Anyone seeing the video of static line parachute jumps from the aft stairs of 727s, reportedly made in SE Asia, should note that the stairs were "locked" down. They did not rebound or otherwise move upward between jumpers.
All of the above suggests that Cooper had some experience with or knowledge of the SE Asia 727 operations. As I have stated a number of times before, Cooper was probably a former US Government employee (whether military or civilian) or had worked for a US Government contractor.
Robert99
I checked out the simulation of the flight, and I've talked to a couple of folks. From what I've gathered, it seems that even on a cloudy, rainy, stormy night, you can still make out the city lights -- Vancouver, Battleground, even Camas.
R99 replies:
George Nuttall's book, page 95, quotes Himmelsbach as saying that, "There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights."
ML writes:
Why do I say this? Because he was cool as a cucumber -- nerves of steel. He didn't get rattled -- about anything -- at this time. In addition, he didn't seem stressed, even in the least, about the upcoming jump nor about the aft stairs problem.
R99 replies:
Richard Tosaw's book, page 29, states that when Tina told Cooper about the delay in refueling, "He exploded. He yelled and swore that this was impossible - it was a stall and he was going to blow up the plane. During his hysteria, he kept hitting his fist against his hand and in his rage Tina held her breath in fear that he might explode the bomb. He was screaming that refueling a 727 shouldn't take more than 20 minutes and that a frozen nozzle in Seattle was ridiculous. He opened his briefcase and Tina saw the red sticks and battery as he grabbed hold of the wire while he was shouting."
ML writes:
The pilot said the plane could not take off with the aft stairs down. No problem, he calmly instructed the pilots to go ahead and take off with the aft stairs up -- like it was no big deal.
R99 replies:
From Tosaw, page 28, Cooper was told that it would not be safe for the aircraft to take off with the staircase down. "When Cooper was told this he told Tina that it was safe but that he wasn't going to argue the point and would lower the staircase later."
Among other things, Tina stated that Cooper put on the back pack parachute like he had previous experience doing so.
During the hijacking, Cooper demonstrated that he had general knowledge of the 727. He had specific knowledge about the flap setting, airspeed, and altitude that he specified.
Cooper was also knew that the aft stairs could be lowered in flight. That knowledge was relatively closely held at that time.
Cooper did have some trouble with lowering the stairs. This may mean nothing more than that the control panel for the aft stairs may not have been familiar to him. If the aft stairs are going to be lowered routinely, they would probably have a different control panel with more capabilities.
In addition, the stairs themselves would probably be modified from the commercial airliner version. Anyone seeing the video of static line parachute jumps from the aft stairs of 727s, reportedly made in SE Asia, should note that the stairs were "locked" down. They did not rebound or otherwise move upward between jumpers.
All of the above suggests that Cooper had some experience with or knowledge of the SE Asia 727 operations. As I have stated a number of times before, Cooper was probably a former US Government employee (whether military or civilian) or had worked for a US Government contractor.
Robert99
Great post and good calmly explained conclusions, IMO.
This does seem to lean towards a better rained and more experienced "Operative" type, over the haphazardly type.
Matt
This does seem to lean towards a better rained and more experienced "Operative" type, over the haphazardly type.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
Amazon 7
QuoteR99 replies:
George Nuttall's book, page 95, quotes Himmelsbach as saying that, "There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights."
I wonder if Himmelsbach has any proof of that whatsoever. I have flown in and around the Hillsborough/Vancouver/Scappoose area in some nasty nasty scary soup. Flying in and out of Scappoose we could still see the lights of the surrounding towns like Woodland or St Helens or Vancouver thru the clouds and rain.
georger 244
QuoteQuoteR99 replies:
George Nuttall's book, page 95, quotes Himmelsbach as saying that, "There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights."
I wonder if Himmelsbach has any proof of that whatsoever. I have flown in and around the Hillsborough/Vancouver/Scappoose area in some nasty nasty scary soup. Flying in and out of Scappoose we could still see the lights of the surrounding towns like Woodland or St Helens or Vancouver thru the clouds and rain.
Thats the same experience of pilots I have talked to
up there, also -
Plus we now have a rather detailed workup on the
weather through the week of the 24th and five days
out almost hourly... 1971 as it applied to the whole
corridor of v23, which corroborates yours and other
pilots advice on this matter.
Plus we have pilots who flew that day and evening ..
flights in and out of PDX and other small airports
that day and evening in the corridor ..
Weather is no issue -
georger 244
All of the above suggests that Cooper had some experience with or knowledge of the SE Asia 727 operations. As I have stated a number of times before, Cooper was probably a former US Government employee (whether military or civilian) or had worked for a US Government contractor.
Robert99
Robert99
I would add the tie data in ...
One remaining issue is the reliability of Palmer's
strata analysis ... and no solid erosion data for Tina
Bar from 71 to Feb 1980.
georger 244
and that is why ...
PMs are closed. Sorry. Absolute necessity.
I just dont have the time for all of them ...
Robert99 50
QuoteQuoteR99 replies:
George Nuttall's book, page 95, quotes Himmelsbach as saying that, "There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights."
I wonder if Himmelsbach has any proof of that whatsoever. I have flown in and around the Hillsborough/Vancouver/Scappoose area in some nasty nasty scary soup. Flying in and out of Scappoose we could still see the lights of the surrounding towns like Woodland or St Helens or Vancouver thru the clouds and rain.
Himmelsbach was apparently describing conversations that he had with the pilots.
I'll grant that if you were below the bottom cloud layer you would have relatively good visibility on the night of the hijacking. Portland International was reporting 10 miles visibility which is a rather "standard" visibility. It could have been more.
But the airliner was at 10,000 feet and had an overcast (or "undercast" if you insist) below it plus two or three more cloud layers below that. Even at the age of 16, and with my X-ray eyes, I would have had trouble seeing through that.
Robert99
Robert99 50
QuoteWeather is no issue -
It is agreed that weather in itself was not an issue on the night of the hijacking. But visibility downward through an overcast and several cloud layers is another matter.
Robert99
Farflung 0
“Anyone seeing the video of static line parachute jumps from the aft stairs of 727s, reportedly made in SE Asia, should note that the stairs were "locked" down. They did not rebound or otherwise move upward between jumpers.”
WHAT?
What sort of control authority would be left for nose up pitch, with the 727’s aft stairs “locked” down?
This is absurd. Where is there video or a picture of a 727 in flight with the aft stairs “locked” down?
Now I want an X-ray TV set.
WHAT?
What sort of control authority would be left for nose up pitch, with the 727’s aft stairs “locked” down?
This is absurd. Where is there video or a picture of a 727 in flight with the aft stairs “locked” down?
Now I want an X-ray TV set.
18E 0
So does the DBC profile begin to take shape in this way?
Experience in skydiving
Experience with 727's
Knowledge of SOP airline in-flight and ground protocol
Potential experience in bomb-making or bomb-faking
Knowledge of FBI access to funds (?)
Not overly smart, (jumping in suit, dress shoes, overcoat, at night, in cloud cover, undetermined target drop)
How am I doing...missing anything?
Experience in skydiving
Experience with 727's
Knowledge of SOP airline in-flight and ground protocol
Potential experience in bomb-making or bomb-faking
Knowledge of FBI access to funds (?)
Not overly smart, (jumping in suit, dress shoes, overcoat, at night, in cloud cover, undetermined target drop)
How am I doing...missing anything?
18E 0
Now ya'll have certainly got the premediated thing down...right? The evidence supporting that?
Robert99 50
Quote“Anyone seeing the video of static line parachute jumps from the aft stairs of 727s, reportedly made in SE Asia, should note that the stairs were "locked" down. They did not rebound or otherwise move upward between jumpers.”
WHAT?
What sort of control authority would be left for nose up pitch, with the 727’s aft stairs “locked” down?
This is absurd. Where is there video or a picture of a 727 in flight with the aft stairs “locked” down?
Now I want an X-ray TV set.
The SE Asia video was linked to a post a year or two ago and, while I watched the video several times, I did not record the link. But You Tube is the place to check.
In the video, the aft stairs are fully extended. If they were not "locked" down, then they would not stay in that position. If they did, then THAT would be absurd.
Longitudinal control power is partially produced by the elevators on the trailing edge of the horizontal stabilizer. PLUS, as you should be aware, the horizontal stabilizer itself can be rotated around an axis that is just forward of the leading edge of the elevators.
The leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer can be moved down a very significant distance. This very act dramatically increases the nose-up control power.
Static line jumps from the 727 aft stairs were probably done at an airspeed of about 140 or 150 knots and at relatively low altitudes above sea level, which is about the same speed as is used in such jumps from the C-130 and C-141.
The flight test program that Boeing did on the SE Asia 727s undoubtedly included validation of controllability under the conditions that were expected to be enountered during their operational use.
Robert99
Farflung 0
For something that you have studied for “years” it sure is amazing how no one ever has a source at their fingertips, thus causing every query to go through half a dozen iterations.
That is also absurd.
Here’s the only video I can find on 727, Black Ops, super secret crap and there are no stairs on the airframe at all. Which is precisely what I would have anticipated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjJPNx72JBc
Hope you weren’t referencing this video since there are no stairs. But since YouTube only offers this video with my search query, it’s back to the usual DBC, "because I said so" crap.
No available sources, means it came from the back of horses.
Just attach one of the many images you must have and that will be fine.
That is also absurd.
Here’s the only video I can find on 727, Black Ops, super secret crap and there are no stairs on the airframe at all. Which is precisely what I would have anticipated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjJPNx72JBc
Hope you weren’t referencing this video since there are no stairs. But since YouTube only offers this video with my search query, it’s back to the usual DBC, "because I said so" crap.
No available sources, means it came from the back of horses.
Just attach one of the many images you must have and that will be fine.
Jo's Replies in Blue:
Reverse your thoughts about the FBI and see what they would think about your investigating skills.
bulletproof windows on planes
You know I do NOT know that as a fact and is pure speculation on my part.
radio communications
All I know about that is what I would assume from his knowledge of communications over the yrs - CBs and his friends whow worked at the airport. My cannot find the word tonight.
fingerprints on a document that was old and handled by others.
Why didn't that ask me for other sources of fingerprints before I moved and got rid of all of his stuff. That first yr I could probably have found something with his prints on them.
Reverse your thoughts about the FBI and see what they would think about your investigating skills.
bulletproof windows on planes
You know I do NOT know that as a fact and is pure speculation on my part.
radio communications
All I know about that is what I would assume from his knowledge of communications over the yrs - CBs and his friends whow worked at the airport. My cannot find the word tonight.
fingerprints on a document that was old and handled by others.
Why didn't that ask me for other sources of fingerprints before I moved and got rid of all of his stuff. That first yr I could probably have found something with his prints on them.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Robert99 50
QuoteSo does the DBC profile begin to take shape in this way?
Experience in skydiving
Experience with 727's
Knowledge of SOP airline in-flight and ground protocol
Potential experience in bomb-making or bomb-faking
Knowledge of FBI access to funds (?)
Not overly smart, (jumping in suit, dress shoes, overcoat, at night, in cloud cover, undetermined target drop)
How am I doing...missing anything?
Experience in skydiving - Probably not skydiving but experience in a parachute wearing capacity maybe as a crew member.
Experience with 727s - Experience or at least knowledge of 727s is a definite yes.
Knowledge of SOP airline in-flight and ground protocol - A definite yes although it may have been military transport type operations.
Potential experience in bomb-making or bomb-faking - Not much experience is required on this point but he had enough to get the job done. Only two people saw the "bomb" and I doubt if either had seen dynamite or a bomb before.
Knowledge of FBI access to funds (?) - Unknown and Cooper definitely took a gamble on that since the banks in Seattle were going to close about 4:00PM for Thanksgiving and Cooper hijacked the airliner just after 3:00PM. Remember that bank vaults have time locks and Cooper may have come very close to having to wait until Friday morning if he wanted money.
Not overly smart . . . - Agree 100 percent. He cut everything real close.
How am I doing . . . missing anything? - A number of organizations and people, including myself, believe that Cooper was on the ground and dead within one minute of separating from the aircraft. In short, he cratered.
Robert99
QuoteQuoteR99 replies:
George Nuttall's book, page 95, quotes Himmelsbach as saying that, "There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights."
I wonder if Himmelsbach has any proof of that whatsoever. I have flown in and around the Hillsborough/Vancouver/Scappoose area in some nasty nasty scary soup. Flying in and out of Scappoose we could still see the lights of the surrounding towns like Woodland or St Helens or Vancouver thru the clouds and rain.
George Nuttall made LOT's OF Claims that are not true. If you guys think I am DOGMATIC then you need to talk to Nuttall.
He will listen to NOTHING or ANYONE who does NOT agree with him completely.
I spoke to the Co-pilot and - the co-pilot was able to see the lights of Vancouver and Portland thru the clouds as a haze (The co-pilot sits on the RIGHT side of the plane). So what lights did he see if - as some tell it - the flight went directly over Tena's bar. The co-pilot specifically stated Vancouver and Portland.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Quoteand that is why ...
PMs are closed. Sorry. Absolute necessity.
I just dont have the time for all of them ...
HEY! I haven't tried to PM except for the time you opened it for some communications we worked on together. After that it was closed - I have NOT tried to PM you since you Closed it so MAKE your statement to the appropriate posters - not me.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Quote
I'll grant that if you were below the bottom cloud layer you would have relatively good visibility on the night of the hijacking. Portland International was reporting 10 miles visibility which is a rather "standard" visibility. It could have been more.
But the airliner was at 10,000 feet and had an overcast (or "undercast" if you insist) below it plus two or three more cloud layers below that. Even at the age of 16, and with my X-ray eyes, I would have had trouble seeing through that.
Robert99
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
QuoteSo does the DBC profile begin to take shape in this way?
Experience in skydiving
Experience with 727's
Knowledge of SOP airline in-flight and ground protocol
Potential experience in bomb-making or bomb-faking
Knowledge of FBI access to funds (?)
Not overly smart, (jumping in suit, dress shoes, overcoat, at night, in cloud cover, undetermined target drop)
How am I doing...missing anything?
I like the statement
"knowledge of SOP airline In-flight and ground protocol"
At least you do NOT go off the deep end and declare he had to be SOP - just knowledge of.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
listen to your own words Jo, "I was easy to fool" "I was pretty gullible"
let's reverse your thoughts about the FBI and see what they would think about your investigating skills.
bulletproof windows on planes
radio communications
digging up money and throwing it into a river.
fingerprints on a document that was old and handled by others.
Federal prison system.
complete background checks on Family members.
lack of professional investigator's over 18 year period.
you jump to conclusions at the slightest hint of anything, then you reply fighting tooth and nail on things you are not knowledgeable about in the first place? you can't handle criticism, but dish it out to the FBI and any suspects in your way?
is this really fair, or a proper investigation? I know you have worked very long and hard on this, but, not being a part of Cooper as long as you have does not give you the right to be right!
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