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Might not be around for awhile!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
377 22
Traveling Jo?
Hope it's not a hospital visit.
377
Hope it's not a hospital visit.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Amazon 7
QuoteHow about entertaining the possibility that the money stacks stayed lined up because they were tightly secured in some sort of receptacle, like a money bag.
MeyerLouie
A couple of points:
This socalled alignment issue is being over-played
and misstated imo. Tom seems to be contradicting
himself because Tom also includes an alignment
diagram which is anything but 'perfect alignment' -
see his website. Attached. (Keep in mind, we don't
know where in the stack this bill that Tom shows, was.
And we dont know if this bill and its parts represents
the overall status/orientations of the bills in bundles
"when buried", and neither does Tom. Tom's use of
the word "buried" can only be a generic use of the
word because nobody knows the process that
applied when the money got deposited on the
sandbar.)
Also: it is commonly understood the 'pile' of money
was being held together (cemented together) by river
sediments - not by rubber bands (which is ludicrous).
The bands had longsince ceased to function -
Also: Dredge spoils moved 50ft @ direction ...
What Tom actually says is: "probably moved"! No one
knows for sure not even Fazio who did the moving. He
never measured anything in the multiple moving
sessions that were applied during and after the spoil
was applied to his beachfront. I had somebody talk to
him. see attached...
My experience with the Fazio's place was they were constantly pushing sand around... It was always pretty uniform sand.. not dirt that was delivered up on their property. The sand was fine enough to blow across the road pretty frequently and that is usually fairly fine to be windblown so easily.
.thumb.JPG.e3961c3b7e4427878bb877a252be4a17.JPG)
QuoteHow about entertaining the possibility that the money stacks stayed lined up because they were tightly secured in some sort of receptacle, like a money bag.
MeyerLouie
A couple of points:
This socalled alignment issue is being over-played
and misstated imo. Tom seems to be contradicting
himself because Tom also includes an alignment
diagram which is anything but 'perfect alignment' -
see his website. Attached. (Keep in mind, we don't
know where in the stack this bill that Tom shows, was.
And we dont know if this bill and its parts represents
the overall status/orientations of the bills in bundles
"when buried", and neither does Tom. Tom's use of
the word "buried" can only be a generic use of the
word because nobody knows the process that
applied when the money got deposited on the
sandbar.)
Also: it is commonly understood the 'pile' of money
was being held together (cemented together) by river
sediments - not by rubber bands (which is ludicrous).
The bands had longsince ceased to function -
Also: Dredge spoils moved 50ft @ direction ...
What Tom actually says is: "probably moved"! No one
knows for sure not even Fazio who did the moving. He
never measured anything in the multiple moving
sessions that were applied during and after the spoil
was applied to his beachfront. I had somebody talk to
him. see attached...
Thanks Georger. I did see the allignment diagram of the bills at TK's website. Absolutely, the rubber bands were rendered useless and non-functional if they disintegrated just by touching them. So, I guess it's commond knowledge that river sediment helped keep the bills together -- or is that part ludicrous as well?
MeyerLouie
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteHow about entertaining the possibility that the money stacks stayed lined up because they were tightly secured in some sort of receptacle, like a money bag.
MeyerLouie
A couple of points:
This socalled alignment issue is being over-played
and misstated imo. Tom seems to be contradicting
himself because Tom also includes an alignment
diagram which is anything but 'perfect alignment' -
see his website. Attached. (Keep in mind, we don't
know where in the stack this bill that Tom shows, was.
And we dont know if this bill and its parts represents
the overall status/orientations of the bills in bundles
"when buried", and neither does Tom. Tom's use of
the word "buried" can only be a generic use of the
word because nobody knows the process that
applied when the money got deposited on the
sandbar.)
Also: it is commonly understood the 'pile' of money
was being held together (cemented together) by river
sediments - not by rubber bands (which is ludicrous).
The bands had longsince ceased to function -
Also: Dredge spoils moved 50ft @ direction ...
What Tom actually says is: "probably moved"! No one
knows for sure not even Fazio who did the moving. He
never measured anything in the multiple moving
sessions that were applied during and after the spoil
was applied to his beachfront. I had somebody talk to
him. see attached...
Thanks Georger. I did see the allignment diagram of the bills at TK's website. Absolutely, the rubber bands were rendered useless and non-functional if they disintegrated just by touching them. So, I guess it's commond knowledge that river sediment helped keep the bills together -- or is that part ludicrous as well?
MeyerLouie
I think a better test would be to actually put some packets of money thru one of the dredges they use to maintain the main channel in that part of the river.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbjWjOiAhW0
The dredge "Oregon" began operating in 1965 dredging the Columbia and the Rivergate Area.
mrshutter45 21
here is a pretty good animation of dredging 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13RvRSFIoeo
I'm sure everyone has seen this right?
http://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Currency-Notifies-Fbi-Of-D-B-Cooper-Serial-Numbers
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
georger 244
So, I guess it's common knowledge that river sediment helped keep the bills together --
MeyerLouie
MeyerLouie
Yes. That's what I'm saying. Cellulose ( straw) and
clay are common building materials since the prehistoric.
Quote
My experience with the Fazio's place was they were constantly pushing sand around... It was always pretty uniform sand.. not dirt that was delivered up on their property. The sand was fine enough to blow across the road pretty frequently and that is usually fairly fine to be windblown so easily.
So glad you said that! I remember the sand when I was there in 2001 with Mr. H. In 1979 I did NOT go down to the beach so I have NO idea what it was like then...other than to view it from the parking lot.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
I do not know what Kaye found regarding the rubber bands when he did his test HOW MANY YRS after the crime was committed and when the money was found.
The money was found in 1980 and Kaye examined the money in 2010 - that is 30 yrs of decomposure and handling of the material after the fact. The money was NOT protected from handling in the early stages of the find.
According to the source I have who was personally involved in the investigation in 1980 the rubber bands had decomposed, but there was residue from the rubber bands on the edges of the money and other places.
377:
Take this one to THE BANK! Be sure they put the whitish flecked bank bag in side of the transport bag - I wouldn't want my 2 million to be damaged! Let's call it inflation.
Did you note the post - Computer problems! Well, I got her up and going at least for a while.
The money was found in 1980 and Kaye examined the money in 2010 - that is 30 yrs of decomposure and handling of the material after the fact. The money was NOT protected from handling in the early stages of the find.
According to the source I have who was personally involved in the investigation in 1980 the rubber bands had decomposed, but there was residue from the rubber bands on the edges of the money and other places.
377:
Take this one to THE BANK! Be sure they put the whitish flecked bank bag in side of the transport bag - I wouldn't want my 2 million to be damaged! Let's call it inflation.
Did you note the post - Computer problems! Well, I got her up and going at least for a while.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 244
QuoteQuoteSo, I guess it's common knowledge that river sediment helped keep the bills together --
MeyerLouie
Yes. That's what I'm saying. Cellulose ( straw) and
clay are common building materials since the prehistoric.
Did they keep the rubber bands from crumbling to dust, as well? They were still intact, except they crumbled once handled. However...this also assumes they were still in the stretched position, or something close it it when found. This is EXTREMELY unlikely given Kaye's tests, which show intense degradation after less than a year when exposure to water or burial is a factor. Wherever those bills came from, it probably didn't happen in 1971, and they certainly weren't exposed to the elements for ten years. Maybe the real clue here isn't the condition of the bills, but the condition of the rubber holding them together.
I would also point out there was neither clay or straw embedded in the bill packets, as far as I know. They were found under a few inches of sand. If clay particles were mixed in with the bills, it's pretty likely Kaye and his team would have found them.
I have the greatest respect for both MeyerLouie's and Georger's opinions. But as some here have reminded me occasionally, (and deservedly) let's try to stay with reality and the known facts when possible.
let's try to stay with reality and the known facts when possible.
Then why don't you! ?
Cotton (money fibres) contain cellulose - Quote: "For industrial use, cellulose today is mainly obtained from wood pulp and cotton. Cotton fibres represent the purest natural form of cellulose, containing more than 90% of this carbohydrate.Cellulose is a straight chain
carbohydrate polymer:"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wii/Cellulose
So cellulose + clay = bricks since prehistory!
Rubber bands: 'had reached and exceeded their melt
transition phase. That is why . . . ' (US Treasury Dept
Forensics Div., Dr. ____)
Any questions? Any answers ?
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
georger 244
QuoteSkyjack71: Too bad you didn't actually find out where Duane went that day. I won't list other possibilities. Okay, I will do a couple. Old girlfriend, prison pal. The truth is you don't know, and we have no other witnesses on his condition (soiled) after he returned, except you. Verification, second sources. It's EVERYTHING. Read All The President's Men for details.
Amazon says in part:Quote'I think a better test would be to actually put some packets of money thru one of the dredges they use to maintain the main channel in that part of the river...'
This is GENIUS. The most obvious test was in front of everyone all the time. But it took Amazon to think it up.
Has already happened ages ago... documented.
Dredges have been operating forever - you think
money has never passed through one?
Quote
Yes. That's what I'm saying. Cellulose ( straw) and
clay are common building materials since the prehistoric.
If that is the residue they found with the money - that could also have come from another source rather than the river banks or dredging matter. More probably the suggestions I make below:
Old houses and barns and sheds.
If one had a friend in the area or if Cooper took shelter in a house that he knew would always be there - like the Ledbetter Mansion or one of the other buildings on the property were the workers and foreman lived.
I use this as an example only because Duane claimed to have known a man who supervised the place known as the "CARETAKER".
I could never get anyone to find out who the caretaker was from the yrs - 1945 to 1950 and then 1962 - 1977. Those were the only yrs I thought Duane could have spent time in WA and why I fixated on those time spans.
I mentioned this Caretaker on one thread I posted on and why BK came into that thread and called himself CaretakerAl. See what I mean BK takes things and USES them. Drop him a name and he is all over it. Perhaps not immediately, but just give him a little time and it will come right back at you. BA!
Georger you have a barn! What is the floor made of - straw and clay or some other soil that compacts well? Even in KY we see clay for some reason on the foundations of the barns, perhaps because it formed a firmer foundation for storage of items and did not absorb as much moisture. In Fl they carry clay in because of our sandy soil for the foundations.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
377 22
Cooper twenty on eBay. Lots of photos.
D.B. Cooper Hijacking $20 Note Airlines Aviation FBI US History DB Money / Coins
http://bit.ly/Wo3Sqz
377
D.B. Cooper Hijacking $20 Note Airlines Aviation FBI US History DB Money / Coins
http://bit.ly/Wo3Sqz
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
QuoteNot a real big deal, but I was working at someone's house today. This is a lady for whom I have worked for about seven years. She's a retired teacher with a little private school downstairs for tutoring, although she hasn't used it in years.
Each month, nothing changes in that room. My job is to clean and dust the room and nothing is ever moved...including about twenty rubber bands of various sizes in a little pull-out drawer. So...I get this thought and pull open the drawer. I take out some of the rubber bands. They are at LEAST five years old, since no one except yours truly has been in that room since 2007. (She retired from tutoring and locked up the room in 2007) The bands are of different sizes and thicknesses. I stretch a few of them to their full extent several times back and forth, some pretty severely. After reading what I have on Kaye's site about exposure to air and rubber bands, I fully expect them to snap easily.
None of them broke, although they had a bit of a funny smell. It was a chemical smell that got stronger as I stretched them out. Just a thought on the life of rubber bands. The drawer is rather loose, and exposed to the air at the top about an eighth of an inch. The point here is that after more than five years, these rubber bands, even though they had been exposed to air (although not water or the outside elements) still worked just fine.
Amateur Conclusion: The Kaye team has already proven that rubber bands degrade severely within a reletively short time if exposed to moving water, or are buried in sand. This could mean the money bundles were kept somewhere OUT of the elements for several years before they ended up at Tena Bar. You can figure out the rest on that....
__________________________________________________
Figure out the rest on that? Don't think so. The rubber bands, which were wrapped around the money bundles, may have deteriorated quickly, but it doesn't look like the bills did. How did the bills get so tattered and worn if the money bundles were kept somewhere OUT of the elements for several years before ending up at Tena Bar just a short while prior to February 1980? TK and others have said this didn't take all that long -- rubber bands deteriorate quickly when submerged in water for a short length of time. But the bills look pretty rough, like they've been exposed to the elements for an extended period of time -- not for just a few days or weeks before February 1980. How do the "non-natural means theory" people reconcile that little odd reality, that little discrepancy, that little piece of evidence? They simply ignore this little reality -- as if it doesn't even exist. They make no attempt to explain it. Rather they are hell-bent on promoting one particular theory that just doesn't add up. But then again, I've always felt kind of empty and left hanging everytime I listen to Tom Kaye's analysis and conclusions. Most of the time it's a definite maybe.
MeyerLouie
__________________________________________________
QuoteQuoteQuoteHow about entertaining the possibility that the money stacks stayed lined up because they were tightly secured in some sort of receptacle, like a money bag.
MeyerLouie
A couple of points:
This socalled alignment issue is being over-played
and misstated imo. Tom seems to be contradicting
himself because Tom also includes an alignment
diagram which is anything but 'perfect alignment' -
see his website. Attached. (Keep in mind, we don't
know where in the stack this bill that Tom shows, was.
And we dont know if this bill and its parts represents
the overall status/orientations of the bills in bundles
"when buried", and neither does Tom. Tom's use of
the word "buried" can only be a generic use of the
word because nobody knows the process that
applied when the money got deposited on the
sandbar.)
Also: it is commonly understood the 'pile' of money
was being held together (cemented together) by river
sediments - not by rubber bands (which is ludicrous).
The bands had longsince ceased to function -
Also: Dredge spoils moved 50ft @ direction ...
What Tom actually says is: "probably moved"! No one
knows for sure not even Fazio who did the moving. He
never measured anything in the multiple moving
sessions that were applied during and after the spoil
was applied to his beachfront. I had somebody talk to
him. see attached...
Thanks Georger. I did see the allignment diagram of the bills at TK's website. Absolutely, the rubber bands were rendered useless and non-functional if they disintegrated just by touching them. So, I guess it's commond knowledge that river sediment helped keep the bills together -- or is that part ludicrous as well?
MeyerLouie
I think a better test would be to actually put some packets of money thru one of the dredges they use to maintain the main channel in that part of the river.
__________________________________________________
Money packets or a money bag about the same size and dimension as the Cooper bag?
MeyerLouie
377 22
How did Duane's tie tac end up on eBay?
http://bit.ly/Wb0PHH
377
QuoteCool item here for the D.B. Cooper crowd!
This looks to be exactly like the tie clip worn in 1971 by Airline Hijacker D.B. Cooper!
After the 1971 Hijacking, Cooper left his clip on tie on the airplane. The actual tie and tie clip are one of the few clues the FBI have to this day in the 40+ year old unsolved mystery. You can do a google search for pics of the actual tie clip still held by the FBI, and I think you'll agree that this looks to be an exact match. The tie clip is 18KT gold plated, and has a genuine mother of pearl in it. I would guess the tie clip is from the 50's or 60's, and would have originally came in a set with a few other mens dress up goodies. The condition is fantastic, maybe even unused. Let's just go with nice original condition... You are bidding on only the tie clip, nothing else is included. Quite a rare piece to run across for sure. Cool conversation piece, wear it to work, or complete your D.B. Cooper costume for next Halloween! Offered at NO RESERVE, and I will ship via USPS Priority Mail after cleared payment is received from a confirmed US address. US buyers only please. I also have a authentic $20 ransom bill from the hijacking listed in my other items, please take a look if you'd like!
http://bit.ly/Wb0PHH
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
QuoteSo, I guess it's common knowledge that river sediment helped keep the bills together --
MeyerLouie
Yes. That's what I'm saying. Cellulose ( straw) and
clay are common building materials since the prehistoric.
__________________________________________________
Of course, Georger, that would have to be. That means then that the twain did meet -- the money and the River -- the money was in the River. Lots of people assume right here then that the money packets must have floated naked --there was no enclosure or bag to contain them. Is that necessarily so? Maybe not. Maybe, just maybe the money packets stayed inside a well-wrapped, possibly damaged money bag for a long period of time -- submerged under water for a long period of time, floating and tumbling down the River, until it got to T-Bar -- where the worn, tattered, watered-logged, sediment-saturated bills got expunged onto the beach at T-Bar........just thinking out loud...........MeyerLouie
QuoteQuoteSo, I guess it's common knowledge that river sediment helped keep the bills together --
MeyerLouie
Yes. That's what I'm saying. Cellulose ( straw) and
clay are common building materials since the prehistoric.
Wherever those bills came from, it probably didn't happen in 1971, and they certainly weren't exposed to the elements for ten years. Maybe the real clue here isn't the condition of the bills, but the condition of the rubber holding them together.
_________________________________________________
I take exception to every statement you made in this last paragraph. The condition of the rubber bands trumps the condition of the bills? You can't be serious! You're kidding, right?
MeyerLouie
_________________________________________________
I would also point out there was neither clay or straw embedded in the bill packets, as far as I know.
_________________________________________________
How do you reconcile that with the information we got from Georger a few posts ago? MeyerLouie
__________________________________________________
They were found under a few inches of sand. If clay particles were mixed in with the bills, it's pretty likely Kaye and his team would have found them.
__________________________________________________
And, of course, if Tom Kaye says it, it must be so.
MeyerLouie__________________________________________________
I have the greatest respect for both MeyerLouie's and Georger's opinions. But as some here have reminded me occasionally, (and deservedly) let's try to stay with reality and the known facts when possible.
_________________________________________________
Blevins, it's nice to see you have gotten real. I see the improvement -- you aren't using reality as a crutch so much anymore.
MeyerLouie
_________________________________________________
georger 244
And there is evidence of either straw or clay found in these bills? Or evidence they traveled through a dredger before being found? Or went down a river first?
What 'sediment-saturated' bills do you refer to?
I'm going to repeat a Great Truth here about the Tena Bar money that I still believe is accurate:
The finding of the money, and the resultant investigation into that money, has raised more questions than it actually answers.
MeyerLouie: No need to bold up every response. I have a really good monitor here.
I think Amazon's suggestion is the best idea I've ever heard about the Tena Bar money. Unless you are afraid of the truth, or busy yourself going off on wacky tangents on the money with nothing to back it up...
Q: And there is evidence of either straw or clay found
in these bills?
A: Yes. The bills are constructed from a base of
cotton fibres. Cotton fibres are CELLULOSE. Straw and
wood are also other examples of CELLULOSE. Do you
get it now!? Do you hear me now?
Paper money is constructed from CELLULOSE!
CLAY ... was in the sediment cementing and holding
the bills together.
THE RUBBER BANS - WERE NOT! - HOLDING THE BILLS
TOGETHER.
We must move on. The semester is almost over!
And we have barely left 'paper money is made of
cotton fibres which are cellulose'!
georger 244
Of course, Georger, that would have to be. That means then that the twain did meet -- the money and the River -- the money was in the River. Lots of people assume right here then that the money packets must have floated naked --there was no enclosure or bag to contain them. Is that necessarily so?
Yes maybe not. If the bill packets were on land the
whole time but periodically in contact with Columbia
river water, melt water, and the like as during the
flood of 79, that would be enough to infiltrate the
bills with sediments. One would expect to find
sediment chemistry and sand particles embedded
in the cotton fibres of the bills, even to the middle of
a bundle as was found. The nature of those particles
and the chemistry of the sediment could be important
...
Any protective cover over or around the money is
going to extend the period of time until infiltration
occurs.
Sediments carry with it bacteria also -
And just so you know, there was a major drought in
1978 - 4th lowest Columbia river levels ever recorded
- this ended in Dec 78 going into flood in 1979 with
the Washougal basin, for example, ten feet out of its
banks. Some thought these floods in 79 is what
brought Cooper money to Tena Bar. Who knows ...
Duane knew antiques - and money from and old crime would never have entered his mind. Remember Duane's reputation - he was so dumb he got caught - HOW MANY TIMES? He also spent time in prisons for multiple crimes - maybe BECAUSE he got stupid. I think it was stupid to put money in the river - but what was he thinking at that time in 1979.
He had a record. He drove FAST.
He did something a couple of times - that I caught him at, but I won't go into details on that. He was put ON NOTICE verbally and by MY ACTIONS I would NOT tolerate what he did. As far as I know these are the only 2 infactions he made after we were married. I guess he thought of this as "keeping in practice". For instance the Kool Aid during his last few months. The other 2 things were a "little" more serious. Call it Adult Child Syndrome!
Perhaps what he needed to show me and his reason for NEEDING to go for a ride and back to the HOUSE was to provide just that!
I will never know now! Like the song he used to sing - "You'll Never Know If You Don't Know NOW" How significant is that song now? He loved me enough to walk away from a life style he knew I could NOT tolerate. I think the "little" incidences were testing me - and maybe that is why he called "Mommie". We had no children but I was Mommie!
This child like charm is what captivated people - little did they know and found it shocking to learn he was a 5 time felon not to meantion how many times he had been arrested. His best friend just could not believe his friend and some times co-worker since 1983 was an ex-con. Duane taught this best friend how to sell insurance and the man became very successful. The friend and his wife contact me frequently to see how I am doing and we speak on the phone a couple of times every yrs.
Duane was a GOOD friend to the people he knew and those of us who knew this almost child like man will never forget him. His best friend who is a staunch Christian - said the first thing he is going to do when he "gets" there is to find Duane - and knows he will be there with that Boyish grin (no one ever forgot his grin and his grimace) - this odd little quirk was a look of mischievance and it could also display displeasure, but there was a twinkle in his eye with mischieveous and a dark side to the grimace. The friend will say "You Really Did It - didn't you?"
This friend is the one who shared the escapeds Duane pulled in his presence. I hope he writes them all down.
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