georger 244
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Amazon 7
QuoteI know nothing about that panel.
But, I have jumped with many a load and can tell you that lowering line is made of much wider ( 1/2 inch tubular nylon webbing) material than the suspension lines Cooper used. Additionally, that harness has a single point release which involves metal releases, buckles and friction adapters. ( Older harness involved two releases) It would have been a helluva rig job to do that with suspension lines and expect it to stay attached.
Yup... I highly doubt he was doing something that he could "lower"... it is not logical and I think anyone who has jumped that kind of equipment would not endeavor to rid themselves of the money in the bag that was how much weight again??? The bag was no where near the weight of the equipment a trooper would be jumping with.
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteI know nothing about that panel.
But, I have jumped with many a load and can tell you that lowering line is made of much wider ( 1/2 inch tubular nylon webbing) material than the suspension lines Cooper used. Additionally, that harness has a single point release which involves metal releases, buckles and friction adapters. ( Older harness involved two releases) It would have been a helluva rig job to do that with suspension lines and expect it to stay attached.
where is the line attached in the photo? around the
waste?
It would be attached to the harness
Quote
Quote
IF Cooper were to tie any kind of 'ordinary' knot...which he likely would have - and cut the trailing end pieces down short in order to minimize interference with grabbing the ripcord - which makes sense...he only greatly increased the chances the line would slip the knot and become undone.
What if he had won lots of rope tying contests as a Boy Scout! Weber actually did this and it was part of the family information with Duane in his Scout Uniform picture!
Tina's description said he was standing - NOT sitting when he attached the bag to himself
I personally spoke with a gentleman tonight whom I have communicated with for yrs. This man was a journalist in the 70's and media person who claimed he was allowed to at one time read the witness reports.
1. The first composites of Cooper looked NOTHING like the descriptions given by the stewardess.
2. He did NOT remember reading anything about a watch.
This man is now in his 80's and investigated the case and wrote about it in the early days. He even wrote a book about the crime that has never been published.
This man spent 2 hours interviewing Tina back in the day!
He didn't ask about a watch nor does he remember any mention of a watch.
One day I will discuss this with him in more detail. He does NOT read the thread and leaves Cooper be - like leaves of three.
His investigation centered around Coffelt and James Brown.
My understand is that he was also a TV commentator in the day.
We have talked off and on for several yrs and since I was aware of all of the controversary about Tina - wanted to know what he remembered....I did know he personally interviewed her and what prompted my call to him tonight.
We spent about 10 minutes discussing Cooper and then 20 minute discussing OTHER things...like life in general for the aging.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Quote
Yup... I highly doubt he was doing something that he could "lower"... it is not logical and I think anyone who has jumped that kind of equipment would not endeavor to rid themselves of the money in the bag that was how much weight again??? The bag was no where near the weight of the equipment a trooper would be jumping with.
Smoke jumpers jumped with a lot of equipment and so did the military!
Note the picture posted below and the fact this was the only thing in a Book left by Weber in a safe deposit box I did NOT know existed until after his death. The key and the slip is all there was. Since my name was not on this box - I could not be present when they opened it. 2 banking personel did so and bought me a magazine - ALL that was in the BOX.
This picture was in the magazine.
The Man Who Knew To Much! Note the barrel between his legs and that thing was NOT light.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
What if he had won lots of rope tying contests as a Boy Scout! Weber actually did this and it was part of the family information with Duane in his Scout Uniform picture!
Quote
As an Eagle Scout myself...I can solemnly affirm that just about any Boy Scout who can tie his neckerchief and his red ball jets in the same afternoon 'wins' the knot tying award.
Was he ever an able seaman or above?
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Amazon 7
QuoteQuote
Yup... I highly doubt he was doing something that he could "lower"... it is not logical and I think anyone who has jumped that kind of equipment would not endeavor to rid themselves of the money in the bag that was how much weight again??? The bag was no where near the weight of the equipment a trooper would be jumping with.
Smoke jumpers jumped with a lot of equipment and so did the military!
Note the picture posted below and the fact this was the only thing in a Book left by Weber in a safe deposit box I did NOT know existed until after his death. The key and the slip is all there was. Since my name was not on this box - I could not be present when they opened it. 2 banking personel did so and bought me a magazine - ALL that was in the BOX.
This picture was in the magazine.
The Man Who Knew To Much! Note the barrel between his legs and that thing was NOT light.
here is what it looks like Jo http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=FT+Bragg+Airborne&FORM=RESTAB#view=detail&id=688AD644F198CEFBC0764D3A28DB2A3D3F2F2DE1&selectedIndex=267
That lowering line ( like all the other photos shown on here tonight) is attached to Drings sewn into the parachute harness. It can also occasionally be attached to a triangle link. Just FYI that "line" is folded, velocroed, and rubber banded to ensure it doesn't flap around and interfere with deployment. How one would do that with suspension lines, I don't know. Then we have the attaching and releasing problem. Amongst other problems.
Back to the shadows I go...
Back to the shadows I go...
Propblast
377 22
Meyer Louie wrote
It's just a theory, a possibility. The real jump would not have been made from the bottom step but much higher so leverage (moment arm for you engineers) would be less and hence less deflection when departing.
377
QuoteBut it was 377, I believe, who implied earlier, that it is conceivable, possible, that DBC could have faked the jump at Ariel. That is, DBC could have gone to the bottom of the aft stairs, jumped up and down a few times to activate the pressure gauge, then climb back up the stairs, wait several minutes, then gently step off, do a freefall from, the bottom step of the aft stairs -- gentle enough so no pressure bump was indicated
It's just a theory, a possibility. The real jump would not have been made from the bottom step but much higher so leverage (moment arm for you engineers) would be less and hence less deflection when departing.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Quote
Was he ever an able seaman or above?
He was in the Navy and he spent time on fishing boats - I do NOT know what all he did...remember he never stayed in one place very long...trying to stay one step ahead of the law - he lost most of the time.
I do KNOW he was good at packing and securing things - he had two stepsons stationed in Wa in 1971. I would have to reference old handwritten notes to remember what branch and where.
When it came to securing large boats (yachts) he was very handy. he talked about Salmon and mentioned commercial fishing and Alaska...and a place to get across the border - a road used in that manner...in WA.
I forgot about that road and the little border place he mentioned. I know I have mentioned it before and probably in the thread.
Wow! just remembered something - he took me to a large market there in Seattle on the water - he was looking for a guy he used to know and he was NO Longer there. I forgot all about that until this moment. The question about ropes took me to this time and space - something I considered insignificant and a memory perhaps that would have been lost forever had I not been concentrating on Ropes.
Why Ropes took me to the Market in Seattle I have NOT one clue. Just another insignificant memory out of the past.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
377 22
Reply To
Meyer Louie asked about fall dynamics with a money bag tied on to a harness.
Below is from a post I made long ago that addresses this issue.
If he pulled right off the stairs he'd be OK. No spin and hanging under an open chute. Look at the slo mo video Snow made of the Air America 727 jumps. No spin, no tumble. A squidding canopy decelerates the jumper smoothly.
If he delayed the pull, big trouble. As soon as he hit the air beyond the area shielded by the plane KABOOM. In the WFFC jet jumps many people tumbled on exit. Fanny packs and velcroed wrist altimeters were ripped off a few people. My tight goggles were ripped off my face. Only my helmet over the strap held them on.
No big deal. Sunny day. Perfect horizon. No asymmetrical payload bag.
In a few seconds the experienced jumpers stabilized. BUT, the way you stabilize is to orient yourself with the horizon AND a heading reference. On a cloudy night you might have NEITHER. You can arch hard and you will end up belly to earth, but you can't stop a spin without a heading reference. An unchecked spin can increase in rotational speed until the jumper blacks out. An attached payload bag, unless tightly fastened and presenting a symmetrical drag profile relative to the jumper, will cause a spin.
At the symposium I showed photos of a test jump I did with a large canvas bag affixed to one leg. It wasn't carrying loot, just radio telemetry gear. During initial freefall that bag almost flipped me over. I managed to compensate with my body. My exit speed was low (about 75 knots). If I had hit the airstream at Coopers exit speed I'd have gone unstable. In daylight I could have fixed it, especially as I slowed down to 120 mph terminal velocity. At night with no horizon or heading reference I don't think I could have stabilized.
So I only agree with Jerry in one exit scenario, a delayed pull. If Cooper knew to pull right off the stairs I think he was stable, got a good chute and landed alive. After that I can't say. A water landing at night could easily be fatal. Even if he alighted on ground there could be problems.
I've done a jet jump. I've made three jumps with a big bag. I've made jumps with a walkie talkie and operated it after opening.. I've never combined all three but I can tell you that at night it would be a major handful.
377
Meyer Louie asked about fall dynamics with a money bag tied on to a harness.
Below is from a post I made long ago that addresses this issue.
QuoteBlevins : I guess the real question is, could anyone survive this jump? 377 and I have discussed this in detail.377 now has his doubts.Tom Kaye measured the length of cord that was cut from the opened chute. There was just enough missing that would allow cooper to attach the money bag to his side. This was a mistake that an experienced skydiver would never make. After 377 and I discussed this he was in agreement that the chances of Cooper surviving this jump was next to none. Jerry
If he pulled right off the stairs he'd be OK. No spin and hanging under an open chute. Look at the slo mo video Snow made of the Air America 727 jumps. No spin, no tumble. A squidding canopy decelerates the jumper smoothly.
If he delayed the pull, big trouble. As soon as he hit the air beyond the area shielded by the plane KABOOM. In the WFFC jet jumps many people tumbled on exit. Fanny packs and velcroed wrist altimeters were ripped off a few people. My tight goggles were ripped off my face. Only my helmet over the strap held them on.
No big deal. Sunny day. Perfect horizon. No asymmetrical payload bag.
In a few seconds the experienced jumpers stabilized. BUT, the way you stabilize is to orient yourself with the horizon AND a heading reference. On a cloudy night you might have NEITHER. You can arch hard and you will end up belly to earth, but you can't stop a spin without a heading reference. An unchecked spin can increase in rotational speed until the jumper blacks out. An attached payload bag, unless tightly fastened and presenting a symmetrical drag profile relative to the jumper, will cause a spin.
At the symposium I showed photos of a test jump I did with a large canvas bag affixed to one leg. It wasn't carrying loot, just radio telemetry gear. During initial freefall that bag almost flipped me over. I managed to compensate with my body. My exit speed was low (about 75 knots). If I had hit the airstream at Coopers exit speed I'd have gone unstable. In daylight I could have fixed it, especially as I slowed down to 120 mph terminal velocity. At night with no horizon or heading reference I don't think I could have stabilized.
So I only agree with Jerry in one exit scenario, a delayed pull. If Cooper knew to pull right off the stairs I think he was stable, got a good chute and landed alive. After that I can't say. A water landing at night could easily be fatal. Even if he alighted on ground there could be problems.
I've done a jet jump. I've made three jumps with a big bag. I've made jumps with a walkie talkie and operated it after opening.. I've never combined all three but I can tell you that at night it would be a major handful.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Amazon 7
QuoteQuote
Was he ever an able seaman or above?
He was in the Navy and he spent time on fishing boats - I do NOT know what all he did...remember he never stayed in one place very long...trying to stay one step ahead of the law - he lost most of the time.
I do KNOW he was good at packing and securing things - he had two stepsons stationed in Wa in 1971. I would have to reference old handwritten notes to remember what branch and where.
When it came to securing large boats (yachts) he was very handy. he talked about Salmon and mentioned commercial fishing and Alaska...and a place to get across the border - a road used in that manner...in WA.
I forgot about that road and the little border place he mentioned. I know I have mentioned it before and probably in the thread.
Wow! just remembered something - he took me to a large market there in Seattle on the water - he was looking for a guy he used to know and he was NO Longer there. I forgot all about that until this moment. The question about ropes took me to this time and space - something I considered insignificant and a memory perhaps that would have been lost forever had I not been concentrating on Ropes.
Why Ropes took me to the Market in Seattle I have NOT one clue. Just another insignificant memory out of the past.
Back in the 70's there were logging road all over the border areas.. and very easy to just get "turned around" and find yourself in Canuda eh.
georger 244
QuoteThat lowering line ( like all the other photos shown on here tonight) is attached to Drings sewn into the parachute harness. It can also occasionally be attached to a triangle link. Just FYI that "line" is folded, velocroed, and rubber banded to ensure it doesn't flap around and interfere with deployment. How one would do that with suspension lines, I don't know. Then we have the attaching and releasing problem. Amongst other problems.
Back to the shadows I go...
Thanks propblast -
Quote
OHHH MMMYYYY GOD that how he got his a CB handle. I was crazy when I saw that picture.
The Worlds Greatest Jock Carrier was Duane's CB handle. Looking at that picture. WOW I know how he got that handle. "You can put him in a chute, but you - have to put him on the plane."
This is a statement made to me in the last 6 wks.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
377 22
Amazon wrote
Quote...and very easy to just get "turned around" and find yourself in Canuda eh.
So that's why some of our northern neighbors seem a bit loopy? The easily confused types end up there?
Just kidding Amazon. I think Canadians are pretty much like regular people most of the time.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 244
QuoteReply To
Meyer Louie asked about fall dynamics with a money bag tied on to a harness.
Below is from a post I made long ago that addresses this issue.QuoteBlevins : I guess the real question is, could anyone survive this jump? 377 and I have discussed this in detail.377 now has his doubts.Tom Kaye measured the length of cord that was cut from the opened chute. There was just enough missing that would allow cooper to attach the money bag to his side. This was a mistake that an experienced skydiver would never make. After 377 and I discussed this he was in agreement that the chances of Cooper surviving this jump was next to none. Jerry
If he pulled right off the stairs he'd be OK. No spin and hanging under an open chute. Look at the slo mo video Snow made of the Air America 727 jumps. No spin, no tumble. A squidding canopy decelerates the jumper smoothly.
If he delayed the pull, big trouble. As soon as he hit the air beyond the area shielded by the plane KABOOM. In the WFFC jet jumps many people tumbled on exit. Fanny packs and velcroed wrist altimeters were ripped off a few people. My tight goggles were ripped off my face. Only my helmet over the strap held them on.
No big deal. Sunny day. Perfect horizon. No asymmetrical payload bag.
In a few seconds the experienced jumpers stabilized. BUT, the way you stabilize is to orient yourself with the horizon AND a heading reference. On a cloudy night you might have NEITHER. You can arch hard and you will end up belly to earth, but you can't stop a spin without a heading reference. An unchecked spin can increase in rotational speed until the jumper blacks out. An attached payload bag, unless tightly fastened and presenting a symmetrical drag profile relative to the jumper, will cause a spin.
At the symposium I showed photos of a test jump I did with a large canvas bag affixed to one leg. It wasn't carrying loot, just radio telemetry gear. During initial freefall that bag almost flipped me over. I managed to compensate with my body. My exit speed was low (about 75 knots). If I had hit the airstream at Coopers exit speed I'd have gone unstable. In daylight I could have fixed it, especially as I slowed down to 120 mph terminal velocity. At night with no horizon or heading reference I don't think I could have stabilized.
So I only agree with Jerry in one exit scenario, a delayed pull. If Cooper knew to pull right off the stairs I think he was stable, got a good chute and landed alive. After that I can't say. A water landing at night could easily be fatal. Even if he alighted on ground there could be problems.
I've done a jet jump. I've made three jumps with a big bag. I've made jumps with a walkie talkie and operated it after opening.. I've never combined all three but I can tell you that at night it would be a major handful.
377
So, how does tying around the waste (and possibly leg) square with professional-had-training vs. wufo ?
What's the vote?
georger 244
QuoteAmazon wrote
Quote...and very easy to just get "turned around" and find yourself in Canuda eh.
So that's why some of our northern neighbors seem a bit loopy? The easily confused types end up there?
Just kidding Amazon. I think Canadians are pretty much like regular people most of the time.
377
and what of 'eh' vs 'ey' !? That is important!
377 22
Those linguistic subtleties are beyond me Georger. I took Canadian in high school but failed the class.
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Amazon 7
QuoteAmazon wrote
Quote...and very easy to just get "turned around" and find yourself in Canuda eh.
So that's why some of our northern neighbors seem a bit loopy? The easily confused types end up there?
Just kidding Amazon. I think Canadians are pretty much like regular people most of the time.
377
You need to go to LP... DUUUUUUDE stray Canadians all over the place.. fun group...
QuoteThat lowering line ( like all the other photos shown on here tonight) is attached to Drings sewn into the parachute harness. It can also occasionally be attached to a triangle link. Just FYI that "line" is folded, velocroed, and rubber banded to ensure it doesn't flap around and interfere with deployment. How one would do that with suspension lines, I don't know. Then we have the attaching and releasing problem. Amongst other problems.
Back to the shadows I go...
Well, HAVE you viewed photos of the rigs Smoke Jumpers Used.
Remember they jumped with LOTS of heavy equipment. Equipment that was NOT compact and they had to carry supplies and one individual jumped with the "radio" how they communicated on the ground.
In Tall Timbers - a book about early smokejumping - is a description of all of this and maybe a picture. There was another book also that showed pictures - Young Men and Fires.
They had to get pics and shovels on the ground with them. They talked about the weight and the disturbution. NOT at all like it would be done today. They had a release so they could release the load to hit the ground just before the jumper did. This was in the late 40's. No light weight stuff like they have today.
The radio was large and awkward - just trying to remember all of the things I read and perhaps some of you better look back and ask yourself WHY the FBI first started with the Smokejumper looking for Cooper in 1971. Perhaps the way Cooper tied the money to himself will provide an answer to that for some of you newer jumpers.
FIND old ways they carried equipment to the ground and you will know how Cooper did it.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Amazon 7
QuoteThose linguistic subtleties are beyond me Georger. I took Canadian in high school but failed the class.
377
Ya just have to go up to the Island.. drive to Port Alberni and then survive the ROAD to Ucluelet eh... I got the t-shirt "I survived the road to Ucluelet" EH
Towing a 25' Ownes Sea Skiff cabin cruiser behind a Dodge 4x4 up and down 18% grades is fun stuff.. and then ya get to go fishing on Barkley Sound... epic times my friend..
Amazon 7
Nah I have been down that road... Once upon a time I had hope I might get to find one alive. That never happened...I have done enough ![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
.thumb.JPG.e3961c3b7e4427878bb877a252be4a17.JPG)
QuoteMeyer Louie wrote
QuoteBut it was 377, I believe, who implied earlier, that it is conceivable, possible, that DBC could have faked the jump at Ariel. That is, DBC could have gone to the bottom of the aft stairs, jumped up and down a few times to activate the pressure gauge, then climb back up the stairs, wait several minutes, then gently step off, do a freefall from, the bottom step of the aft stairs -- gentle enough so no pressure bump was indicated
It's just a theory, a possibility. The real jump would not have been made from the bottom step but much higher so leverage (moment arm for you engineers) would be less and hence less deflection when departing.
377
_________________________________________________
Okay, I see 377 -- I didn't quite have it right from your previous post. MeyerLouie
QuoteQuoteMeyer Louie wrote
QuoteBut it was 377, I believe, who implied earlier, that it is conceivable, possible, that DBC could have faked the jump at Ariel. That is, DBC could have gone to the bottom of the aft stairs, jumped up and down a few times to activate the pressure gauge, then climb back up the stairs, wait several minutes, then gently step off, do a freefall from, the bottom step of the aft stairs -- gentle enough so no pressure bump was indicated
It's just a theory, a possibility. The real jump would not have been made from the bottom step but much higher so leverage (moment arm for you engineers) would be less and hence less deflection when departing.
377
_________________________________________________
Okay, I see 377 -- I didn't quite have it right from your previous post. Would Cooper have cleared the aircraft or aft stairs by jumping from a higher position on the aft stairs? Smacking into the aircraft would put a serious damper on the entire project I would think. The last thing that goes through a fly's mind when he hits the windshield is his mind. Flies have minds, don't they? Hey Blevins, I just made a funny. MeyerLouie
where is the line attached in the photo? around the
waste?
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