DB Cooper

[mrshutter45 21]

"Hey Grasshopper, Bruce Lee was supposed to get the lead part for Kung Fu. You knew that, right? "

Hollywood was not fair at all with Bruce, that's why he made most of his films
outside of the USA.

best quote.
Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”

one inch punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRf49fMVOLE

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 244]

I'm glad you brought up the aft stairs issue again. Here's the truth: no one has proven when Cooper jumped from 305. Rataczak's testimony about when he thought Cooper jumped (when the pressure bump occurred) does not prove that Cooper jumped at that time. The pressure bump is only an indicator of a possibility, maybe even a strong possibility, that's it. No one, I mean, no one saw Cooper jump. Hence, no one has been able to prove when the jump actually occurred -- if it even occurred.

MeyerLouie

Good post Meyer, but I have a different perspective.

You say no one saw Cooper jump. and while that
is true, what was seen was a very unique set of
events (oscillations & bump) which were seen on the
panel. That unique presentation occurs not
before nor after 8:12-16, and that unique set of
events was duplicated in the test flight with a unique
fact common in both occasions: weight on and off
the stairs during flight .

That to my mind is "seeing". It is instrumental seeing.
It is a unique presentation the crew experienced at no
other time during the flight. Had it been witnessed
more than once then you would have reason to
wonder. That not being the case: Cooper jumped in
the 8:12-8:16 time period.

As you know I place a very high value on what Guru,
Farflung, and Amazon have said. I think you need to
go back and look at this placement on the stairs
issue again. Something of a factual nature may
have been missed about those stairs. ~ I am talking
about the physical facts of those stairs during the
flight; not what Cooper intended or was thinking or
would have done or should have done had he been
377 or Blevins, who think they have special insight
into Cooper's personality and personal issues!.
That kind of nonsense has no place in this analysis.

I think Guru, Aamazon, and Farflung have
made some valuable comments which may set a new
direction, and it has been missed. Their comments
defiantly raise some new-old questions, imho.

[mrshutter45 21]

" Cooper jumped in
the 8:12-8:16 time period. "

what exactly is the reason for the time gap?
this gives a 15 mile gap as well. 8:16 puts him
very close to Portland. how did they narrow this
down? if the flight path is correct.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 244]

The idea that the rebounding of the airstairs, the indicator light going off for a moment, and then coming back on for good, is the best evidence supporting the idea that Cooper jumped at the time the crew said he did. There just isn't any evidence showing otherwise. I mean, it's pure speculation.

[georger 244]

Quote

" Cooper jumped in
the 8:12-8:16 time period. "

what exactly is the reason for the time gap?
this gives a 15 mile gap as well. 8:16 puts him
very close to Portland. how did they narrow this
down? if the flight path is correct.

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo,
Robt99, and others. IMHO.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

" Cooper jumped in
the 8:12-8:16 time period. "

what exactly is the reason for the time gap?
this gives a 15 mile gap as well. 8:16 puts him
very close to Portland. how did they narrow this
down? if the flight path is correct.

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo,
Robt99, and others. IMHO.

Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Quote

Quote

" Cooper jumped in
the 8:12-8:16 time period. "

what exactly is the reason for the time gap?
this gives a 15 mile gap as well. 8:16 puts him
very close to Portland. how did they narrow this
down? if the flight path is correct.

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo,
Robt99, and others. IMHO.

Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft.

Robert99

up to this point I thought everyone agreed that the FBI flight
path map was pretty accurate? nobody knows who made the
map for the FBI??

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

" Cooper jumped in
the 8:12-8:16 time period. "

what exactly is the reason for the time gap?
this gives a 15 mile gap as well. 8:16 puts him
very close to Portland. how did they narrow this
down? if the flight path is correct.

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo,
Robt99, and others. IMHO.

Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft.

Robert99

up to this point I thought everyone agreed that the FBI flight
path map was pretty accurate? nobody knows who made the
map for the FBI??

Mrshutter, Next Wednesday, March 13th, will start my fourth year on this thread and I have not seen any agreement at all on the flight path.

Take a look at the times and locations on the so-called "FBI" maps. With the airliner flying at a constant speed of about 3 miles per minute, would it cover 3 miles in one minute and 6 miles in the very next minute? It would have to double its speed for the second minute.

As Sluggo long ago pointed out, there is a minute missing from the times on those maps. What happened to that minute?

There is a simple answer to the above questions and it is not nice.

And I can guarantee you that no airliner would have flown a segmented circle around the west side of Portland as represented on that map.

Also, could the airliner have gotten to the point south of Portland, as stated in the "FBI Notes", at the claimed time if he had stayed on the centerline of V-23 or made the circle west of Portland as represented on the maps?

To make a long story short, the times and locations on the FBI maps are not believable.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

" Cooper jumped in
the 8:12-8:16 time period. "

what exactly is the reason for the time gap?
this gives a 15 mile gap as well. 8:16 puts him
very close to Portland. how did they narrow this
down? if the flight path is correct.

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo,
Robt99, and others. IMHO.

Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft.

Robert99

up to this point I thought everyone agreed that the FBI flight
path map was pretty accurate? nobody knows who made the
map for the FBI??

Mrshutter, Next Wednesday, March 13th, will start my fourth year on this thread and I have not seen any agreement at all on the flight path.

Take a look at the times and locations on the so-called "FBI" maps. With the airliner flying at a constant speed of about 3 miles per minute, would it cover 3 miles in one minute and 6 miles in the very next minute? It would have to double its speed for the second minute.

As Sluggo long ago pointed out, there is a minute missing from the times on those maps. What happened to that minute?

There is a simple answer to the above questions and it is not nice.

And I can guarantee you that no airliner would have flown a segmented circle around the west side of Portland as represented on that map.

Also, could the airliner have gotten to the point south of Portland, as stated in the "FBI Notes", at the claimed time if he had stayed on the centerline of V-23 or made the circle west of Portland as represented on the maps?

To make a long story short, the times and locations on the FBI maps are not believable.

Robert99

agreed, I was aware of the time issues from almost the starting point, and the missing minute.
this is the reason I would like to see if the FBI map will line up with my simulation. once this has
been determined, we will try other options. my project has been grounded due to computer
issues with my flight yoke system. I'm in the process of buying another computer in order to get
the project running again.

"Also, could the airliner have gotten to the point south of Portland, as stated in the "FBI Notes", at the claimed time if he had stayed on the centerline of V-23 or made the circle west of Portland as represented on the maps?"

this is another example the simulator can check....from my stand point with the simulator, the drop
zone area is pretty small from the air flying around as they show? the zig zags starting from Lake
Merwin down, very confined space IMO.

has the FBI ever said anything about the time issues, map vs transcripts?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

" Cooper jumped in
the 8:12-8:16 time period. "

what exactly is the reason for the time gap?
this gives a 15 mile gap as well. 8:16 puts him
very close to Portland. how did they narrow this
down? if the flight path is correct.

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo,
Robt99, and others. IMHO.

Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft.

Robert99

up to this point I thought everyone agreed that the FBI flight
path map was pretty accurate? nobody knows who made the
map for the FBI??

Mrshutter, Next Wednesday, March 13th, will start my fourth year on this thread and I have not seen any agreement at all on the flight path.

Take a look at the times and locations on the so-called "FBI" maps. With the airliner flying at a constant speed of about 3 miles per minute, would it cover 3 miles in one minute and 6 miles in the very next minute? It would have to double its speed for the second minute.

As Sluggo long ago pointed out, there is a minute missing from the times on those maps. What happened to that minute?

There is a simple answer to the above questions and it is not nice.

And I can guarantee you that no airliner would have flown a segmented circle around the west side of Portland as represented on that map.

Also, could the airliner have gotten to the point south of Portland, as stated in the "FBI Notes", at the claimed time if he had stayed on the centerline of V-23 or made the circle west of Portland as represented on the maps?

To make a long story short, the times and locations on the FBI maps are not believable.

Robert99

agreed, I was aware of the time issues from almost the starting point, and the missing minute.
this is the reason I would like to see if the FBI map will line up with my simulation. once this has
been determined, we will try other options. my project has been grounded due to computer
issues with my flight yoke system. I'm in the process of buying another computer in order to get
the project running again.

"Also, could the airliner have gotten to the point south of Portland, as stated in the "FBI Notes", at the claimed time if he had stayed on the centerline of V-23 or made the circle west of Portland as represented on the maps?"

this is another example the simulator can check....from my stand point with the simulator, the drop
zone area is pretty small from the air flying around as they show? the zig zags starting from Lake
Merwin down, very confined space IMO.

has the FBI ever said anything about the time issues, map vs transcripts?

I'm not aware of any comment from the FBI on the time or map issues. Also remember that there is a map error on what underlies V-23 from the old Mayfield Intersection to the present day Battleground VORTAC.

When you get ready to do some timed flights from Seattle to south of Portland, the intended cruise speed at 10,000 feet was 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed. That would have to be corrected to Knots True Air Speed and the winds aloft of about 26 Knots from 225 degrees (with respect to the map grid lines) would have to be entered into this to give the Ground Speed. And, of course, the Ground Speed is what is important in this navigation problem. And you will have to do some precise calculations since every minute represents about three miles over the ground.

If the quality of the data were better, I would be willing to state that there was no way that the airliner could be at the location south of Portland at the specified time unless it had taken a "short cut" around the west side of Portland from about the old Mayfield Intersection.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

"When you get ready to do some timed flights from Seattle to south of Portland, the intended cruise speed at 10,000 feet was 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed. That would have to be corrected to Knots True Air Speed and the winds aloft of about 26 Knots from 225 degrees (with respect to the map grid lines) would have to be entered into this to give the Ground Speed. And, of course, the Ground Speed is what is important in this navigation problem. And you will have to do some precise calculations since every minute represents about three miles over the ground. "

Hominid has been putting me through tests like you have suggested. so far everything has checked out. he is also very knowledgeable with the weather, the weather system I have now is very accurate. we are hoping to get some results
with this project that might help in the future. I'm a little rusty not being in the cockpit in a while. eager to get started again...

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

Quote

"When you get ready to do some timed flights from Seattle to south of Portland, the intended cruise speed at 10,000 feet was 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed. That would have to be corrected to Knots True Air Speed and the winds aloft of about 26 Knots from 225 degrees (with respect to the map grid lines) would have to be entered into this to give the Ground Speed. And, of course, the Ground Speed is what is important in this navigation problem. And you will have to do some precise calculations since every minute represents about three miles over the ground. "

Hominid has been putting me through tests like you have suggested. so far everything has checked out. he is also very knowledgeable with the weather, the weather system I have now is very accurate. we are hoping to get some results
with this project that might help in the future. I'm a little rusty not being in the cockpit in a while. eager to get started again...

Is Hominid a pilot and/or navigator?

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Quote

"When you get ready to do some timed flights from Seattle to south of Portland, the intended cruise speed at 10,000 feet was 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed. That would have to be corrected to Knots True Air Speed and the winds aloft of about 26 Knots from 225 degrees (with respect to the map grid lines) would have to be entered into this to give the Ground Speed. And, of course, the Ground Speed is what is important in this navigation problem. And you will have to do some precise calculations since every minute represents about three miles over the ground. "

Hominid has been putting me through tests like you have suggested. so far everything has checked out. he is also very knowledgeable with the weather, the weather system I have now is very accurate. we are hoping to get some results
with this project that might help in the future. I'm a little rusty not being in the cockpit in a while. eager to get started again...

Is Hominid a pilot and/or navigator?

he is neither from my understanding. I trust his intelligence as well as his knowledge of the "known flight path"
he did extensive weather detailing all the way down the path which will probably take me an hour to upload into
the system. we want to be as accurate as we can. this is from one of many emails back and forth.

7:00 PM
METAR KSEA 250300Z 17010KT 15SM -SHRA SCT/// OVC/// 06/03 A2995 RMK SLP142
T00560028

Interpolated for 0330Z (7:30):
METAR KSEA 250330Z 16510KT 10SM -SHRA SCT07 OVC12 06/03 A2995 RMK SLP143
T00560030

8pm:
METAR KSEA 250400Z 16010KT 07SM -SHRA SCT07 OVC12 06/03 A2995 RMK SLP144
T00560033

METAR KBFI 250400Z 15011KT 10SM SHRA SCT33 BKN80 07/04 A2994 RMK SLP139
T00670039

METAR KPAE 250400Z 14012KT 15SM BKN50 OVC180 06/03 A2993 RMK SLP136
T00560028

METAR KBLI 250400Z 17008KT 10SM BKN27 OVC70 07/04 A2990 RMK SLP129 OCNL R
T00670039

METAR KOLM 250400Z 18006KT 08SM -SHRA SCT11 BKN24 OVC38 05/04 A2996 RMK
SLP146 T00500044

METAR KTDO 250400Z 19005KT 12SM -SHRA BKN30 06/04 A2997 RMK SLP151 T00560044

Est. for MORTON (no need): 250400Z 18005KT 12SM CLR BKN30 06/04 A2998 RMK
SLP154

PDX:

METAR KPDX 250300Z 13004KT 15SM -SHRA SCT/// BKN/// OVC/// 08/06 A3001 RMK
SLP162 T00780056

METAR KPDX 250400Z 27010KT 07SM -SHRA SCT15 BKN27 OVC50 06/03 A3003 RMK
SLP169

T00560033
---------------------------
No need to use:
A3003 at 8:16pm

Have 9pm rpt too.

at 9:17pm
METAR KPDX 250517Z 250517 24012KT 06SM -SHRA SCT15 BKN35 OVC50

------------------
Troutdale
METAR KTTD 250400Z 22007KT 10SM --SHRA BKN40 08/05 A3003 RMK T00780050
R07VV7.0

Salem, OR
METAR KSLE 250400Z 21012KT 10XM -SHRA SCT16 BKN25 06/04 A3011 RMK SLP197
T00560039

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

Quote

"When you get ready to do some timed flights from Seattle to south of Portland, the intended cruise speed at 10,000 feet was 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed. That would have to be corrected to Knots True Air Speed and the winds aloft of about 26 Knots from 225 degrees (with respect to the map grid lines) would have to be entered into this to give the Ground Speed. And, of course, the Ground Speed is what is important in this navigation problem. And you will have to do some precise calculations since every minute represents about three miles over the ground. "

Hominid has been putting me through tests like you have suggested. so far everything has checked out. he is also very knowledgeable with the weather, the weather system I have now is very accurate. we are hoping to get some results
with this project that might help in the future. I'm a little rusty not being in the cockpit in a while. eager to get started again...

Is Hominid a pilot and/or navigator?

he is neither from my understanding. I trust his intelligence as well as his knowledge of the "known flight path"
he did extensive weather detailing all the way down the path which will probably take me an hour to upload into
the system. we want to be as accurate as we can. this is from one of many emails back and forth.

Check the FAA web page for manuals that are devoted to navigation or have sections that are devoted to navigation. There is nothing mysterious about this subject but the manuals will help you understand the factors that are involved and the importance of each. At least some of these FAA manuals can probably be downloaded for free.

If you get interested in flight test manuals, as used in the military, let me know and I can refer you to some first class manuals that also can be downloaded for free.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

"When you get ready to do some timed flights from Seattle to south of Portland, the intended cruise speed at 10,000 feet was 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed. That would have to be corrected to Knots True Air Speed and the winds aloft of about 26 Knots from 225 degrees (with respect to the map grid lines) would have to be entered into this to give the Ground Speed. And, of course, the Ground Speed is what is important in this navigation problem. And you will have to do some precise calculations since every minute represents about three miles over the ground. "

Hominid has been putting me through tests like you have suggested. so far everything has checked out. he is also very knowledgeable with the weather, the weather system I have now is very accurate. we are hoping to get some results
with this project that might help in the future. I'm a little rusty not being in the cockpit in a while. eager to get started again...

Is Hominid a pilot and/or navigator?

he is neither from my understanding. I trust his intelligence as well as his knowledge of the "known flight path"
he did extensive weather detailing all the way down the path which will probably take me an hour to upload into
the system. we want to be as accurate as we can. this is from one of many emails back and forth.

Check the FAA web page for manuals that are devoted to navigation or have sections that are devoted to navigation. There is nothing mysterious about this subject but the manuals will help you understand the factors that are involved and the importance of each. At least some of these FAA manuals can probably be downloaded for free.

If you get interested in flight test manuals, as used in the military, let me know and I can refer you to some first class manuals that also can be downloaded for free.

Robert99

Thanks 99. I believe Hominid has several manuals, but not the ones you are referring to.
I'm sure I'll be asking you questions through out the project once we are up and running
again.

I'm not sure if you seen this video I made (different from first one) I fly your J-3 Cub Piper around KPDX

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFBLdyhwIZg

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

More unsolcited advice:

If you are going to dispute the FBI maps and the FBI's version of the flight path, then how about drawing up a document in PDF (with images if necessary). This document would present your concerns on their conclusions. You should give the Seattle office a chance to defend the information they made public.

Unless you have a response from them with their reasons, then you will never be able to establish for sure that they are in error. Not only is YOUR research important (it is), but so is theirs. Without understanding how they arrived at their conclusions makes it a one-sided research project. You can't verify your own research without knowing how they arrived at theirs.

Just a thought.

I'm not disputing anything! the purpose of this project is finding out
if the path could of been flown as it has been mapped. issues have
already come to light and all be be included at the end of testing.

Possibilities
1) try and find the missing minute.
2) matching time frames
3) narrow the jump site.
4) look for other options as to where the plane was.
5) take off time

the list goes on.......

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

The idea that the rebounding of the airstairs, the indicator light going off for a moment, and then coming back on for good, is the best evidence supporting the idea that Cooper jumped at the time the crew said he did. There just isn't any evidence showing otherwise. I mean, it's pure speculation.

Thanks for your opinion, Elmer Fudd.

Wage Earner Sheeple!

Knock off the names. And as a matter of point, if you look back a few posts...you basically AGREED with the idea there isn't any evidence Cooper faked a jump and went later.

Can we say 'double-standard' here?

Which names, Oh Master!

WAGE EARNER SHEEPLE ? That was your - N A M E.

The rest is pure speculation on you part.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

" Cooper jumped in
the 8:12-8:16 time period. "

what exactly is the reason for the time gap?
this gives a 15 mile gap as well. 8:16 puts him
very close to Portland. how did they narrow this
down? if the flight path is correct.

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo,
Robt99, and others. IMHO.

Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft.

Robert99

up to this point I thought everyone agreed that the FBI flight
path map was pretty accurate? nobody knows who made the
map for the FBI??

There has been speculation that Soderlind (sp?) at
NWA did, but others seem to discount that referring to
'radar data from McChord' ... so maybe it was
someone from McChord, in cooperation with NWA ...
but then Ckret implied maybe someone at the FBI
'used a pencil on a map and made the map' ! ???

I sure don't know. (That must be pretty
obvious)

[georger 244]

has the FBI ever said anything about the time issues, map vs transcripts?

Well in pieces ...

H in 1976 gave an interview saying the FBI now
believed the Lake Merwin scenario was wrong; that
Cooper had bailed '12 miles north of Portland'.

2nd, there has been a long rumored "conference" that
was held supposedly to discuss the Cooper case and
the flight path. There were several newspaper
accounts of a conference being held, but details were
never published so far as I know ...

3rd. Ckret bought into Sluggo's idea that Cooper had
bailed somewhere around Scotton or Orchards .. then
there was chatter about FBI people poking around
that area and some of this was discussed here in DZ,
but Ckret would never confirm or deny anything -
whatever he may have said to Sluggo privately.

[georger 244]

Quote

"When you get ready to do some timed flights from Seattle to south of Portland, the intended cruise speed at 10,000 feet was 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed. That would have to be corrected to Knots True Air Speed and the winds aloft of about 26 Knots from 225 degrees (with respect to the map grid lines) would have to be entered into this to give the Ground Speed. And, of course, the Ground Speed is what is important in this navigation problem. And you will have to do some precise calculations since every minute represents about three miles over the ground. "

Hominid has been putting me through tests like you have suggested. so far everything has checked out. he is also very knowledgeable with the weather, the weather system I have now is very accurate. we are hoping to get some results
with this project that might help in the future. I'm a little rusty not being in the cockpit in a while. eager to get started again...

You just answered a question Ive had - that's good
news.

[georger 244]

Quote

More unsolcited advice:

If you are going to dispute the FBI maps and the FBI's version of the flight path, then how about drawing up a document in PDF (with images if necessary). This document would present your concerns on their conclusions. You should give the Seattle office a chance to defend the information they made public.

Unless you have a response from them with their reasons, then you will never be able to establish for sure that they are in error. Not only is YOUR research important (it is), but so is theirs. Without understanding how they arrived at their conclusions makes it a one-sided research project. You can't verify your own research without knowing how they arrived at theirs.

You might want to submit your document, with its questions and concerns, signed by more than one person where everyone gives their qualifications. They might take it more seriously this way. And if you get an answer from them, you might be able to find (if they exist) any holes in their conclusions.

Just a thought.

Thank you Oh Master! Your advice about "holes" is
especially well placed and insightful, no doubt from
personal experience..... with wind.

[Robert99 50]

Here I go again. There are at least two implied assumptions in the following. First, water runs downhill. Second, gravity has essentially been constant for the past 50 years or so.

A few days back, I asked if anyone on the thread could explain to me some of the language in the US Army Corp of Engineers data as related to the river gage at Vancouver, WA. Since no replies were forthcoming, I will make my own interpretations and explain them as things proceed below. After considering the Vancouver gage data, I will then proceed to a second point on the river and discuss both points further.

The US Army COE data to be discussed here subtitled "Stage Height (FT);Daily (24 Hourly);Processed;;Max of Day;HG".

My interpretation of the above is that the data was probably recorded by instrumentation and then processed electronically to determine the maximum elevation of the Colunbia River at the gage that day. The data appears to have been recorded on an hourly basis and the river height is listed in feet. I have no idea what the "HG" means.

After the subtitle, the following information is provided: "Gage Zero: + 1.8 NGVD29/MSL or + 3.2 City of Portland, or + 5.3 NAVD88 FT".

I will only consider the "Gage Zero: + 1.8 NGVD29/MSL" portion of the above. My interpretation of this is that gage zero is 1.8 feet above MSL on the NGVD29 datum. Therefore, to express the gage reading in feet above sea level (ASL), 1.8 feet must be SUBSTRACTED from the gage reading.

The money was found at Tena Bar on Sunday, February 10, 1980. The FBI did their initial digging on Tuesday, February 12, 1980. So keep this second date in mind when considering the river level during the FBI dig.

The maximum gage reading in Vancouver on February 12, 1980, was 5.300 feet. Substracting 1.8 feet from this value gives the water level as being 3.5 feet above sea level (ASL). Keep in mind that there is a 40 foot deep shipping channel just a few feet south of this gage, so the river has plenty of water in it.

On his web page, Tom Kaye gives the GPS coordinates of the location of the money found at Tena Bar as 45.717888 degrees North Latitude and 122.7595000 degrees West Longtitude. With all the significant digits showing, Tom either used a Differential-GPS to measure the coordinates or identified the exact find point and then located it on an online map and used the software to determine the exact coordinates.

I have a "seamless" National Geographic Society topographical software program for the state of Washington. Using this program set to the NAD83/WGS84 coordinate system, I located the exact point cited by Tom Kaye.

At that money find point, the software program gave an elevation of 13 feet above sea level (ASL) according to the NAVD29 datum. The gage height and money find height above sea level can now be directly compared.

However, there is still one other point that must be considered first. It should be noted that it is slightly more than 107 miles from the Vancouver gage to the Pacific Ocean (which will be considered to be sea level, it is not as simple as you may have thought!) so the river water level will descend about one foot ever 20 miles or so depending on the gage level.

Since Tena Bar is approximately 10 miles from the Vancouver gage, the water level there would be about 6 or more inches lower than at the gage. Using this 0.5 feet as a constant and the money find level of 13 feet above sea level, the height on the gage at Vancouver can now be determined for the water to reach the money at 13 feet ASL.

It is necessary for the water level at the gage to be 13.5 feet ASL in order for any impact on the money at Tena Bar. Since the gage zero is at 1.8 feet ASL, the gage reading must be 11.7 feet or higher for the river water to reach the money at Tena Bar.

On January 15-17, 1980, the river level was measured at up to 12.9 feet on the gage. The MINIMUM river level on those dates were only a very few inches less.

Prior to the above dates, the most recent dates for the river to reach 11.7 feet or higher on the gage were in December 1977.

CONCLUSIONS:

1. If Duane Weber threw a bag of money in the Columbia River in September 1979, it is very unlikely that it would still be around in mid-January 1980 at the high water mark.

2. If Duane Weber buried money near the Columbia water line in September 1979, it would probably have been at about 6 to 8 feet ASL and nowhere close to the 13 foot ASL elevation where the Tena Bar money was found.

Robert99

[Robert99 50]

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HG probably stands for the atmospheric pressure at a certain time. If there are numbers given here, it would be easy to determine for sure. Something between 25 and 31 or so?

Atmospheric pressure is not a factor in this.

Robert99

[Robert99 50]

This post has been deleted but will be reposted tomorrow (I hope). While reading the posted version, I realized I need to give it still another reading.

In the meantime, does anyone have any information available on the position of the money when it was found. That is, which way were the bills pointing, were the bundles side by side, etc..

Robert99

[Robert99 50]

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"When you get ready to do some timed flights from Seattle to south of Portland, the intended cruise speed at 10,000 feet was 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed. That would have to be corrected to Knots True Air Speed and the winds aloft of about 26 Knots from 225 degrees (with respect to the map grid lines) would have to be entered into this to give the Ground Speed. And, of course, the Ground Speed is what is important in this navigation problem. And you will have to do some precise calculations since every minute represents about three miles over the ground. "

Hominid has been putting me through tests like you have suggested. so far everything has checked out. he is also very knowledgeable with the weather, the weather system I have now is very accurate. we are hoping to get some results
with this project that might help in the future. I'm a little rusty not being in the cockpit in a while. eager to get started again...

Is Hominid a pilot and/or navigator?

he is neither from my understanding. I trust his intelligence as well as his knowledge of the "known flight path"
he did extensive weather detailing all the way down the path which will probably take me an hour to upload into
the system. we want to be as accurate as we can. this is from one of many emails back and forth.

Check the FAA web page for manuals that are devoted to navigation or have sections that are devoted to navigation. There is nothing mysterious about this subject but the manuals will help you understand the factors that are involved and the importance of each. At least some of these FAA manuals can probably be downloaded for free.

If you get interested in flight test manuals, as used in the military, let me know and I can refer you to some first class manuals that also can be downloaded for free.

Robert99

Thanks 99. I believe Hominid has several manuals, but not the ones you are referring to.
I'm sure I'll be asking you questions through out the project once we are up and running
again.

I'm not sure if you seen this video I made (different from first one) I fly your J-3 Cub Piper around KPDX

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFBLdyhwIZg

Mrshutter, Thanks for the youtube.com video. I don't know how I missed it but I had never seen it before.

Robert99