DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

***

"We had another problem besides Cooper. Icing."

Quote

That quote is from R's recent NWA talk. I have posted the whole
passage quoted above. And Bill Scott gave a talk and said the
same thing only expanded it saying it was 2005 when conditions
caused him to call back to Cooper and explain the turbulence
and icing, and they would try to even out the plane for him to
jump. Scott is *very specific*!

I have to go. (run).

So once again Blevins is totally wrong in his outrageous attack
on Smokin99.

later .. am late for a meeting already...

I seen it after I posted. we were a minute apart

"So once again Blevins is totally wrong in his outrageous attack on Smokin99"

I agree 1000%

You only have to be 100% right!I wish I could get the information you are able to obtain. I never read anything such as the statement of the time as 2005 and Scott calling back to Cooper. Ratachek was at the controls doing the leveling out.

If any of you were ever 727 pilots - just how at 2005 would you have handled this situation? Remember the pilot is doing this as Scott is taling if the records you are quoting are correct.

At 2005 were was the plane. Use ALL fight paths. NOT just the one altered path. Did the co-pilot lower his altitude and his speed? What is the procedure for this?

If it is 2005 when Captain Scott is speaking - how do we know it was 2005? What action is the Co-pilot taking? Increasing altitude - does that NOT cause MORE ice? Did Cooper suspect something funny was going on? Did Cooper know anything about icing? Did Cooper know anything about tubulence? Was Cooper getting worried? Did Cooper respond to the transmit?

BUT, most important what was the procedure for turbulence - lower the altitude, level off and then climb?

Or were they at 10,000 plus and then lower to below 10,000 to level off so the ice would not be such a problem.

How does this affect the time line and locations some one had dictated in the thread? They are off by one fricking minute. ONE damn minute.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[mrshutter45 21]

lot of questions there Jo

with the equipment they had there shouldn't really be any problems with icing as long as they were aware of the conditions. if they went any higher oxygen would be needed. remember the plane was not pressurized. I don't seem to recall any loss of altitude due to icing.

I'm aware of two points of "leveling out" this would be the 7,000 range from the start of the flight, then they went to 10,000 and remained there.

the 2005 position (8:05) would be moments before Merwin Lake area. also last contact made with Cooper.

most of the time they were above cloud levels. icing on the wings form from moisture in the clouds, or freezing rain (light rain) you can have snow on the ground, but have dry clouds and no icing. Robert99 am I correct on this?

the plane was at 7,000 for approx. 10+ minutes then climbed to 10,000. this was before reaching the Toledo area, or as I call it. the first leg of the flight. don't have my numbers handy, but should be close enough.

Turbulence, I don't think this was any problem either.

plane took off from SEA at around 7:36
according to one transcript they traveled 14 miles in 4 minutes??? leveling off at 7,000.
around 7:48-7:51 they climb to 10,000

A US Marshal chimed in asking them to slowly increase altitude to 11,000 and drop the temps to slow his movements, but Cooper was already gone at this point. (odds say this)

I included a map. I can pin point and mark things if you need?

I also included where the last contact with Cooper was made at 8:05

this was added. I was incorrect about the US Marshal. it was the coordinator for the Marshal's. (see attachment)

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

this map I have now points things out for you. take note of the blue square. this is one place Rataczak could see Portland out the right window.

I'll take my new simulator up and take a photo of this area to show you since you can't see video's. I don't have the 727 package for it yet, so I have to take a different plane up, but will be the same for this type of project. I can move anywhere in the cockpit with this software.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[smokin99 0]

RobertMBlevins

You don't need a couple of days. I will give you the answer NOW. There was NOT a problem with icing on the wings of Flight 305 anytime between Seattle and Portland. Are you kidding me or what?

Even a non-pilot like me understands that icing would rapidly change the configuration of any lift to the aircraft...especially since it was flying with flaps and wheels down at lower than normal speed. The crew would have contacted Cooper immediately and told him they had an emergency, as well as the ground. Then they would have descended to combat the icing and hit the wing de-icers.

This is downright ridiculous, and only proves that Smokin99 has one thumb placed somewhere, and another placed elsewhere...and switches every thirty minutes.

Source, please.

Well I'm a little late to the party since someone has already given you my source. But it's 9:35 pm- do you know where your thumbs are?

Trust me on this. Unlike you, I don't put things in quotes unless I can show where I got it from. Which I usually include, btw. If I'm guessing, I say it. I don't make things up as I go along, and I don't cherry pick whatever I think will bolster my argument. Likewise if I'm wrong, I don't have a problem with saying it. I asked Robert99 what effect icing would have on the flight in light of the statement that I copied because I wanted to know the answer - not to try to one-up someone.

Frankly RobertMBlevins, the only thing that has been proven one more time, is that your grade school hubris far outweighs your wiki-intellect. Dunning-Kruger on steroids, you might say. And, you know what - as much as you harp on others - you can also be a bully, a troll, and a horse's patoot.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

RobertMBlevins

***

Quote

This is downright ridiculous, and only proves that Smokin99 has one thumb placed somewhere, and another placed elsewhere...and switches every thirty minutes.

Source, please.

Uhhhhh really DUUUUUDE????

You know, usually I'm pretty polite. Usually. But I've had to sit here and *virtually* listen to one unnecessary insult after another. Much of it based on litlle or nothing.

So, whether I was right or wrong about the icing, I decided it was time for someone else to understand what that is like.

Nobody enjoyed reading that, did they? Nobody thought it was a 'good post', did they? And they would be right.

Doesn't feel that great sometimes when the shoe is on the other foot...


That's your excuse? pretty lame wouldn't you say? your problem with Georger once again has nothing to do with the comment made to smokin99. you were completely out of line stating what you said. period. you being wrong about the icing has everything to do with it. you were missing the knowledge to even make that statement. I'm still waiting on the common sense you boldly express all the time.

Shame On You Duuuude!

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

mrshutter45

lot of questions there Jo

with the equipment they had there shouldn't really be any problems with icing as long as they were aware of the conditions. if they went any higher oxygen would be needed. remember the plane was not pressurized. I don't seem to recall any loss of altitude due to icing.

most of the time they were above cloud levels. icing on the wings form from moisture in the clouds, or freezing rain (light rain) you can have snow on the ground, but have dry clouds and no icing. Robert99 am I correct on this?

Shutter, Let me expand a bit on this subject. On the hijacked flight from Portland to Seattle, there seems to be no mention of icing until the airliner starts holding northwest of Seattle at the Lofall Intersection. As they were flying their designated holding pattern, they would pass through a small cloudy area and the crew told the controllers that they were picking up ice in those clouds. So the controllers modified the holding pattern to keep the airliner out of the clouds.

While on the ground in Seattle, the crew was told that icing was predicted at the altitude they would be flying at but that it would be well south of Portland. As I understand it, they did experience icing south of Portland and that is what Rataczak was talking about.

In the free atmosphere, icing depends primarily on the temperature and normally requires "visible" moisture. But along comes the airliner and as the air passes over the wings, which are designed to accelerate the air (and actually have to in order to produce lift), and as the speed over the wings increases, the temperature decreases, the humidity increases, and ice can form on the wings. It is all an interplay of various factors.

Generally, wing icing takes place over the forward portion of the wing. Modern airliners have electric deicers built into the leading portion of the wings. But they are not magic. In some instances, the deicers can melt the ice on the forward portion of the wing, the water then runs to the rear portion of the wing, and refreezes there. To repeat, there are a lot of variables involved in this.

Deicers are also used on the leading edges of the engine nacelles. These deicers may be used continuously from engine start to engine shut down. The point is that you can not have ice cubes going through the turbine engines if you are interested in staying in the air. Even if you make it home, a few ice cubes can do millions of dollars damage to a turbine engine.

In the case of NWA 305, the best solution for their icing problem on the way to Reno would have been for the cockpit crew to put on their oxygen masks (they have a special system of their own for oxygen) and then climb above the icing conditions.

FOR JO WEBER: Jo, if Duane had some rusted metal "parachute" equipment, then it probably didn't have anything to do with parachutes. The vast majority of the metal used in the parachute and its components is stainless steel and doesn't rust generally (I don't know what would happen if you put it into something such as battery acid).

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

Robert99

***lot of questions there Jo

with the equipment they had there shouldn't really be any problems with icing as long as they were aware of the conditions. if they went any higher oxygen would be needed. remember the plane was not pressurized. I don't seem to recall any loss of altitude due to icing.

most of the time they were above cloud levels. icing on the wings form from moisture in the clouds, or freezing rain (light rain) you can have snow on the ground, but have dry clouds and no icing. Robert99 am I correct on this?

Shutter, Let me expand a bit on this subject. On the hijacked flight from Portland to Seattle, there seems to be no mention of icing until the airliner starts holding northwest of Seattle at the Lofall Intersection. As they were flying their designated holding pattern, they would pass through a small cloudy area and the crew told the controllers that they were picking up ice in those clouds. So the controllers modified the holding pattern to keep the airliner out of the clouds.

While on the ground in Seattle, the crew was told that icing was predicted at the altitude they would be flying at but that it would be well south of Portland. As I understand it, they did experience icing south of Portland and that is what Rataczak was talking about.

In the free atmosphere, icing depends primarily on the temperature and normally requires "visible" moisture. But along comes the airliner and as the air passes over the wings, which are designed to accelerate the air (and actually have to in order to produce lift), and as the speed over the wings increases, the temperature decreases, the humidity increases, and ice can form on the wings. It is all an interplay of various factors.

Generally, wing icing takes place over the forward portion of the wing. Modern airliners have electric deicers built into the leading portion of the wings. But they are not magic. In some instances, the deicers can melt the ice on the forward portion of the wing, the water then runs to the rear portion of the wing, and refreezes there. To repeat, there are a lot of variables involved in this.

Deicers are also used on the leading edges of the engine nacelles. These deicers may be used continuously from engine start to engine shut down. The point is that you can not have ice cubes going through the turbine engines if you are interested in staying in the air. Even if you make it home, a few ice cubes can do millions of dollars damage to a turbine engine.

In the case of NWA 305, the best solution for their icing problem on the way to Reno would have been for the cockpit crew to put on their oxygen masks (they have a special system of their own for oxygen) and then climb above the icing conditions.

FOR JO WEBER: Jo, if Duane had some rusted metal "parachute" equipment, then it probably didn't have anything to do with parachutes. The vast majority of the metal used in the parachute and its components is stainless steel and doesn't rust generally (I don't know what would happen if you put it into something such as battery acid).

Robert99

well said. my point to Jo was the fact of the icing wasn't really a danger at the points they were brought up. this is why I asked Blevins where icing occurs, low or high altitudes. as you mentioned you would go up and not down to correct. I'm fairly new at this section. that's why I asked you for validation. I need my thumbs for work. must be hard missing them as a writer/leading Cooper investigator not referring to you of course

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[smokin99 0]

RobertMBlevins

***

Quote

This is downright ridiculous, and only proves that Smokin99 has one thumb placed somewhere, and another placed elsewhere...and switches every thirty minutes.

Source, please.

Uhhhhh really DUUUUUDE????

You know, usually I'm pretty polite. Usually. But I've had to sit here and *virtually* listen to one unnecessary insult after another. Much of it based on litlle or nothing.

So, whether I was right or wrong about the icing, I decided it was time for someone else to understand what that is like.

Nobody enjoyed reading that, did they? Nobody thought it was a 'good post', did they? And they would be right.

Doesn't feel that great sometimes when the shoe is on the other foot...

Shoe on the other foot??? I did not insult you - I wasn't even commenting to you. I was asking a logical question of Robert99.

You know, I have defended you in the past on this forum when I thought you were being ganged up on. The problem is, like it or not, sometimes you bring it upon yourself.

Case in point - whereas a polite person would apologize and move on - or just not comment any further, you make an excuse for your bad behavior and blame it on others. You do beat all.


As for the icing, I merely posted what is quoted from Rataczak's talk at NW History center.... and then asked a question which stemmed from it. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't need, want, or ask for your conclusions.

From Rataczak:
At 10,000 feet out of Seattle there was a cloud layer, causing icing to occur on the aircraft. We were flying what we call a “dirty airplane” with flaps and gear down. We were unpressurized. We had another problem besides Cooper. Icing."

As you are fond of telling others - if you want to know further information about the subject - his contact information is listed on the world wide web. Give him a call. Or have Porteous do it.

Have a nice night. I'm really through discussing this with you.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

FOR JO WEBER: Jo, if Duane had some rusted metal "parachute" equipment, then it probably didn't have anything to do with parachutes. The vast majority of the metal used in the parachute and its components is stainless steel and doesn't rust generally (I don't know what would happen if you put it into something such as battery acid).

Robert99

There was nothing in the jar rusted, but it was NOT shining like the one piece he kept in the desk drawer - a thing I used to play with when I was on the phone making appointments.

I sold the shiny thing at a garage sale after he died for a quarter. The man who bought it told me belonged on a parachute. The same man bought the patches - lots of parachuting patches and the only one I remember had what I would call a devil on it. I wondered why Duane had the these things - but he bought things at garage sales and expired storage sheds and auctions. I just wondered what his attachment was a to piece of chute harness...after I found out who Dan Cooper was - I knew.

The things in the jar in the garage were NOT shiny if I remember correctly. I barely looked at them, but there was one coil long thing with spirals in it....377 sent me some pictures, but I never even opened the jar so judging the size was beyond me. I expect I threw the jar and its contents in the garbage - it didn't mean anything to me or look like anything the Helping Hands Mission could use.

The items were NOT rusted and if I said rusted that is not what I meant. I do not remember it being shiny like the hardware piece in the desk drawer. It was obvious these items were old. I only remember 2 of the items in it - the long coily spiral thing and the loop. All I know is that he told me they were parts of a parachute, but since I had no knowledge of his past - just passed it on by as something he acquired.

I did not even question WHY he wanted to keep it. That is how much something like that meant to me. Nothing in the jar was rusted...and I never took it out to examined it. After he died I got rid of lots of thing - it was stuff to me.

I would compare the color of the stuff in the jar to nails - old and discolored but NOT rusty. Hope this helps.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 245]

As for the icing, I merely posted what is quoted from Rataczak's talk at NW History center.... and then asked a question which stemmed from it. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't need, want, or ask for your conclusions.

From Rataczak:
At 10,000 feet out of Seattle there was a cloud layer, causing icing to occur on the aircraft. We were flying what we call a “dirty airplane” with flaps and gear down. We were unpressurized. We had another problem besides Cooper. Icing."

Quote

sorry to be late -

Exactly as per yours above. The reference (pdf) can be found
here: http://www.nwahistory.org/newsletter/12_fall_newsletter_web.pdf

Ref #2: "_ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described
the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher)

_ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence
earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken and he spotted Vancouver coming up ahead. He thinks Cooper saw it also." (researcher)

Ref #3: "... _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in
the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in
the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at
4:00pm radioed and said he was in severe turbulence and hard
rain and icing, he almost turned around and went back, but he
came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground
and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont
remember any more storm activity that day and I finally went
home about midnight after we had been monitoring the hijacking
just west of us at Portland, but we did listen to some of the
hijacking chatter that evening. As for ......." (airport manager)

Ref #4: " ... I would not doubt this. The 8pm forecast for
Portland says broken at 2700' base and overcast at 5000' base.
This means that, looking up from some position at the airport,
the blocking at least 4/10 of the sky (if the lower 2 layers were
blocking .5 of it). It is possible a pilot could see down between
clouds in different layers, as several have rerported looking
somewhere other than directly at the airport--the reverse of the
path used by the airport observer. And the airport observation
might have been a little different by 8:15pm. 5000' layer, plus
the lower layers, had to be blocking over .9 of the sky. The
reports of icing and turbulence were documented at several
airports ...... so Rataczak's report is consistent with the facts."
(FAA meteorologist)

Ref #5: "I found this news article about a talk Scott gave in
1997 to a local Aero club where he lived. (edit) It's the first
news article at this search
http://news.google.com/...st+pack&ie=UTF-8. " (Snowmman
2008)

Ref #6: "... Tina came forward and was with us in the cabin. She
reported the hijacker was preparing to jump so I called to the
back about 2005 and told him we would try and stabilize the
plane for him to jump. It was the turbulence and icing that
caused me to call back to him. We didn't want anything
happening... and we wanted him gone!" (Wm Scott 1997)

Ref #7 email just received:

"I went back to all of my notes from six hours of inteviewing Rataczak and we found this from our 2008 discussions:

On icing:

Rataczak: "We were flying through several cloud layers of
drizzle between SEA and PDX. We had engines boosted up b/c of
our dirty configuration. I could see icing around the cockpit
windows. It was a big concern to both Capt. Scott and myself."

"... Scott called back to him about 2005 to reassure him. He
didn't answer at first but then finally answered. (was out testing
the stairs). He said thanks and left ..." (source witheld)

• Quote

[skyjack71 0]

Robert99

Shutter, Let me expand a bit on this subject. On the hijacked flight from Portland to Seattle, there seems to be no mention of icing until the airliner starts holding northwest of Seattle at the Lofall Intersection. As they were flying their designated holding pattern, they would pass through a small cloudy area and the crew told the controllers that they were picking up ice in those clouds. So the controllers modified the holding pattern to keep the airliner out of the clouds.

While on the ground in Seattle, the crew was told that icing was predicted at the altitude they would be flying at but that it would be well south of Portland. As I understand it, they did experience icing south of Portland and that is what Rataczak was talking about.

In the free atmosphere, icing depends primarily on the temperature and normally requires "visible" moisture. But along comes the airliner and as the air passes over the wings, which are designed to accelerate the air (and actually have to in order to produce lift), and as the speed over the wings increases, the temperature decreases, the humidity increases, and ice can form on the wings. It is all an interplay of various factors.

Generally, wing icing takes place over the forward portion of the wing. Modern airliners have electric deicers built into the leading portion of the wings. But they are not magic. In some instances, the deicers can melt the ice on the forward portion of the wing, the water then runs to the rear portion of the wing, and refreezes there. To repeat, there are a lot of variables involved in this.

Deicers are also used on the leading edges of the engine nacelles. These deicers may be used continuously from engine start to engine shut down. The point is that you can not have ice cubes going through the turbine engines if you are interested in staying in the air. Even if you make it home, a few ice cubes can do millions of dollars damage to a turbine engine.

In the case of NWA 305, the best solution for their icing problem on the way to Reno would have been for the cockpit crew to put on their oxygen masks (they have a special system of their own for oxygen) and then climb above the icing conditions.

Robert99

It is all confusing to me and it seems like everyone is saying something a little different. This is why I usually stay out of the of these issues. I feel like I should call the co-pilot for clarification, but even his story has changed over the yrs. regarding the sequence and specific of thing....per what you guys have stated in the thread. I never discussed details with him because I would not have understood them and he did try to keep his conversations with me simple. He was very aware I am a complete whuffo to planes...other than as a passenger...and what other have told me or I have read.

NOW I am TOTALLY confused and due to circumstances my comprehensive capablities have declined (I do admit that). Even my mind is getting foggy on some of the things I have talked about over the yrs.... getting so I have to write down everything I plan to do on a certain date. Never needed a grocery list until the last couple of yrs - and if I don't have one with me I will invariable buy something I already have 2 or 3 of.

These are NOT the GOLDEN yrs. These are the yrs one hopes they never experience. The pain, the mediations, the testing, Drs. appts, tests and worse of all is not remembering things you have done routinely for yrs...that is really frightening as my mother died after breaking her hip in a nursing home she was confined to because of alzhimers. She did not know who I was.

My mother was one of 9. 3 of them died with the disease and a 4th one is on her way.

I believe being involved in the forum has actually helped my retention capabilities, but they are slowly slipping away I fear. Hopefully it is just stress and of course I do NOT dare post if I have taken any medication (we all know how senseless those post have been).

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

georger

As for the icing, I merely posted what is quoted from Rataczak's talk at NW History center.... and then asked a question which stemmed from it. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't need, want, or ask for your conclusions.

From Rataczak:
At 10,000 feet out of Seattle there was a cloud layer, causing icing to occur on the aircraft. We were flying what we call a “dirty airplane” with flaps and gear down. We were unpressurized. We had another problem besides Cooper. Icing."

Quote

sorry to be late -

Exactly as per yours above. The reference (pdf) can be found
here: http://www.nwahistory.org/newsletter/12_fall_newsletter_web.pdf

Ref #2: "_ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described
the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher)

_ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence
earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken and he spotted Vancouver coming up ahead. He thinks Cooper saw it also." (researcher)

Ref #3: "... _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in
the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in
the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at
4:00pm radioed and said he was in severe turbulence and hard
rain and icing, he almost turned around and went back, but he
came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground
and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont
remember any more storm activity that day and I finally went
home about midnight after we had been monitoring the hijacking
just west of us at Portland, but we did listen to some of the
hijacking chatter that evening. As for ......." (airport manager)

Ref #4: " ... I would not doubt this. The 8pm forecast for
Portland says broken at 2700' base and overcast at 5000' base.
This means that, looking up from some position at the airport,
the blocking at least 4/10 of the sky (if the lower 2 layers were
blocking .5 of it). It is possible a pilot could see down between
clouds in different layers, as several have rerported looking
somewhere other than directly at the airport--the reverse of the
path used by the airport observer. And the airport observation
might have been a little different by 8:15pm. 5000' layer, plus
the lower layers, had to be blocking over .9 of the sky. The
reports of icing and turbulence were documented at several
airports ...... so Rataczak's report is consistent with the facts."
(FAA meteorologist)

Ref #5: "I found this news article about a talk Scott gave in
1997 to a local Aero club where he lived. (edit) It's the first
news article at this search
http://news.google.com/...st+pack&ie=UTF-8. " (Snowmman
2008)

Ref #6: "... Tina came forward and was with us in the cabin. She
reported the hijacker was preparing to jump so I called to the
back about 2005 and told him we would try and stabilize the
plane for him to jump. It was the turbulence and icing that
caused me to call back to him. We didn't want anything
happening... and we wanted him gone!" (Wm Scott 1997)

Ref #7 email just received:

"I went back to all of my notes from six hours of inteviewing Rataczak and we found this from our 2008 discussions:

On icing:

Rataczak: "We were flying through several cloud layers of
drizzle between SEA and PDX. We had engines boosted up b/c of
our dirty configuration. I could see icing around the cockpit
windows. It was a big concern to both Capt. Scott and myself."

"... Scott called back to him about 2005 to reassure him. He
didn't answer at first but then finally answered. (was out testing
the stairs). He said thanks and left ..." (source witheld)

Great POST Georger. Thank You!
Now I am going to go back and try to find the different references you gave in the post. AT least there is some clarification now at least for me.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

• Quote

[georger 245]

skyjack71

***
As for the icing, I merely posted what is quoted from Rataczak's talk at NW History center.... and then asked a question which stemmed from it. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't need, want, or ask for your conclusions.

From Rataczak:
At 10,000 feet out of Seattle there was a cloud layer, causing icing to occur on the aircraft. We were flying what we call a “dirty airplane” with flaps and gear down. We were unpressurized. We had another problem besides Cooper. Icing."

Great POST Georger. Thank You!
Now I am going to go back and try to find the different references you gave in the post. AT least there is some clarification now at least for me.

Quote

Quote

You're welcome.

Robt99 raises a very important question. There are no direct
references to icing in the transcripts. There are many outside
references. The transcripts were redacted. Was icing a fact
redacted or made up, or true?

I think that is Robt99's point and one worth answering.

What were the criteria for editing the Transcript and who would
do that? Is there an unedited version somewhere? Someone
asked earlier who released the Transcripts first and where did
they get their copy? The Seattle PI is somewhere in this loop.

Lots of questions -

• Quote

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[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

this map I have now points things out for you. take note of the blue square. this is one place Rataczak could see Portland out the right window.

I'll take my new simulator up and take a photo of this area to show you since you can't see video's. I don't have the 727 package for it yet, so I have to take a different plane up, but will be the same for this type of project. I can move anywhere in the cockpit with this software.

The map you are using was constructed by Sluggo. That is his points and the one he sent to me - note the NO on it. Where is the map the FBI used for the points in 1971 to decide where to look for Cooper? An official map by the airlines - the first one used needs to be made public and it would explain WHY they were looking in the area they did.

The skyjacker had a marker he could have seen even thru the clouds - a haze. A light one could see for MILES.
I thought it interesting Duane mentioned this light and this to me on that trip. He was talking about a light on a dam, but we did NOT go that far north on that day. I would presume if Cooper was using that as a marker - providing he was able to see it on Nov 24, 1971. I believe he was able to make it out and then he jumped. If the wind factors would have caused a drift to the East - it might put Cooper in the very areas he took me and told me about. There were 'sitings by witnesses' just West of Mt. St. Helens and then West of this Dam I am referring to. There were forestry rails and an old logging bridge there (this I learned for a woman who befriended me on the 2001 trip). I just could not believe he would have landed that far North or that far East if the media reports I had read where correct. The media report centered on Lake Merwin.

Yet, Duane mentioned the Grist mill and an old cemetery near lake Merwin on our trip. ALL of this make sense some of the time and some of the time it makes NO sense at all. and all other kinds of emotions. Totally confused!

I am going to go back and look at the blue in the map Shutter mentioned. Forgot that - then I will take the damn medication.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[smokin99 0]

georger

******
As for the icing, I merely posted what is quoted from Rataczak's talk at NW History center.... and then asked a question which stemmed from it. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't need, want, or ask for your conclusions.

From Rataczak:
At 10,000 feet out of Seattle there was a cloud layer, causing icing to occur on the aircraft. We were flying what we call a “dirty airplane” with flaps and gear down. We were unpressurized. We had another problem besides Cooper. Icing."

Quote

sorry to be late -

Exactly as per yours above. The reference (pdf) can be found
here: http://www.nwahistory.org/newsletter/12_fall_newsletter_web.pdf

Ref #2: "_ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described
the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher)

Quote

You're welcome.

Robt99 raises a very important question. There are no direct
references to icing in the transcripts. There are many outside
references. The transcripts were redacted. Was icing a fact
redacted or made up, or true?

I think that is Robt99's point and one worth answering.

What were the criteria for editing the Transcript and who would
do that? Is there an unedited version somewhere? Someone
asked earlier who released the Transcripts first and where did
they get their copy? The Seattle PI is somewhere in this loop.

Lots of questions -

Seattle PI is where I first saw it, I think. But I have no idea whether Sluggo had it before they did.
So we have transcripts that are incomplete and/or redacted vs multiple eyewitness memory accounts, 30- 40 yrs later, from people who were in the cockpit flying the plane. Ahhhh...the Cooper merry go round.
I yield to the people with more knowledge of flying than I, but I'm not sure I understand why it is assumed that icing would not have occurred under the conditions of this flight even if it is not in the transcript. If I'm remembering correctly, even from Seattle to Portland, there were patches of cloud cover and cold moisture.

But beyond that -- obviously the icing was controllable even if it presented a challenge.

I was mainly wondering about the effects on the flight as far as timing, etc. Or would that be minimal to none? I got sidetracked, but I'm thinking that the answer from R99 and Mr Shutter was yes to minimal or none in this case.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

That is the FBI map Jo. Sluggo put an overlay on his map. a green line with dots on it was from Sluggo. (see photo)

was it Vancouver or Portland Rataczak says?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

this map I have now points things out for you. take note of the blue square. this is one place Rataczak could see Portland out the right window.

I'll take my new simulator up and take a photo of this area to show you since you can't see video's. I don't have the 727 package for it yet, so I have to take a different plane up, but will be the same for this type of project. I can move anywhere in the cockpit with this software.

map22jpg - that is SLUGGO's map he was trying to put Cooper in the Orchards area - that map was doctored to a certain degree and not the official map used by the FBI or the search people. THAT map puts the Plane West of Portland and going right over one of the most densely populated area with lots of small homes. The plane was EAST of Portland or the Pilot lied to me or I completely misunderstood him many yrs ago in a conversation. He told me he could see Vancover to his right. at one point. Even Himmelsbach mentioned East of Portland. The eastern section was NOT over prime populations - there were lots of scattered subdivision and homes there in 1971, but not the dense population the map you are using takes the plane over.

I have argued this before - but was never heard and if I was I was ignored. There are too many unofficial map and that map22jpg is NOT one of the original maps. It was a map created by Sluggo before he came to visit me...have to check the thread to see when that was - I have forgotten when it was, but it was after my husband died in 2007. That map did NOT exist until Sluggo created it!

How the hell did that end up replacing the maps used by the authorities and what map did the damn authorities use. I still have all of the maps Sluggo brought to me and some I cannot figure out - I know he was trying to put Cooper in the Orchards area to appease me, but my trip in 2010 put some of that behind me.

When I went out in 2010 I was follow the way Duane went and taking my time - and things had changed with all of the developement. I rented the car and then went to THE DALLES and took the trip back in time from that point. I made side trip to Goldendal to a historical library there and spent 2 nights there - fell in love with the place and I would go back in a moment. Good peaceful place to live in, but was told the winters are terrible.

Back to The Dalles and then trying to figure out were that bridge (the bridge of the GODs) was how we crossed over to WA on - ONE that JT knew exactly what it was but told me there was NOT bridge there. You guys know he did this - it is right here in this thread. I found my bridge and one that I described very well and JT the expert on site couldn't get it. I was bound and determine to prove to myself I was NOT crazy or imagining all of this shit.

OH HELL this is frustrating and I am getting NO where! HAVE TO GO TO BED!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 50]

Smokin99 writes:

So we have transcripts that are incomplete and/or redacted vs multiple eyewitness memory accounts, 30- 40 yrs later, from people who were in the cockpit flying the plane. Ahhhh...the Cooper merry go round.
I yield to the people with more knowledge of flying than I, but I'm not sure I understand why it is assumed that icing would not have occurred under the conditions of this flight even if it is not in the transcript. If I'm remembering correctly, even from Seattle to Portland, there were patches of cloud cover and cold moisture.

But beyond that -- obviously the icing was controllable even if it presented a challenge.

I was mainly wondering about the effects on the flight as far as timing, etc. Or would that be minimal to none? I got sidetracked, but I'm thinking that the answer from R99 and Mr Shutter was yes to minimal or none in this case.

R99 replies:

Smokin, If the temperature, humidity, etc., were favorable, then icing could have happened between Seattle and Portland. However, there is no record of this.

And any icing on this particular evening should not have been a game changer. But the flight crew would have to do more work and the airliner might be a bit harder to handle (since they were hand flying it).

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

That is the FBI map Jo. Sluggo put an overlay on his map. a green line with dots on it was from Sluggo. (see photo)

was it Vancouver or Portland Rataczak says?

He said he could see VANCOUVER!


_ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence
earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken and he spotted Vancouver coming up ahead. He thinks Cooper saw it also." (researcher)

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

I'm going to bed!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[smokin99 0]

RobertMBlevins

******

You don't need a couple of days. I will give you the answer NOW. There was NOT a problem with icing on the wings of Flight 305 anytime between Seattle and Portland. Are you kidding me or what?

Even a non-pilot like me understands that icing would rapidly change the configuration of any lift to the aircraft...especially since it was flying with flaps and wheels down at lower than normal speed. The crew would have contacted Cooper immediately and told him they had an emergency, as well as the ground. Then they would have descended to combat the icing and hit the wing de-icers.

This is downright ridiculous, and only proves that Smokin99 has one thumb placed somewhere, and another placed elsewhere...and switches every thirty minutes.

Source, please.

Well I'm a little late to the party since someone has already given you my source. But it's 9:35 pm- do you know where your thumbs are?

Trust me on this. Unlike you, I don't put things in quotes unless I can show where I got it from. Which I usually include, btw. If I'm guessing, I say it. I don't make things up as I go along, and I don't cherry pick whatever I think will bolster my argument. Likewise if I'm wrong, I don't have a problem with saying it. I asked Robert99 what effect icing would have on the flight in light of the statement that I copied because I wanted to know the answer - not to try to one-up someone.

Frankly RobertMBlevins, the only thing that has been proven one more time, is that your grade school hubris far outweighs your wiki-intellect. Dunning-Kruger on steroids, you might say. And, you know what - as much as you harp on others - you can also be a bully, a troll, and a horse's patoot.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

You know, I'm actually sorry you were the recipient of all that. A lot of comments followed, didn't they? People didn't like what I posted, correct? I didn't like doing it, either.

Here's my question: Why didn't the same folks who protested my entry there squawk when....

OVER NINE HUNDRED FILTHY-ASS COMMENTS were posted to two Cooper articles and those same articles linked here? I don't dislike you Smokin, but I'm going to tell you a secret. I actually know the identities of several people who made those posts who also post HERE. That is a fact. You see, I'm not as stupid as I look and our main techie guy has also been at Microslave since Windows 3.1. And he's been a friend since that time.

If I go to him and show him those two PDF's and ask him to trace the IP's of those posts, he's going to visit those articles and do that easily. And other people got involved as well helping me on this. I have a fair amount of friends in the tech biz and after they saw those PDF's they were more than happy to assist. A lot of things have gone on behind the scenes that you know nothing about. This is Seattle, baby...the home of tech and if you know how to use it you can find out anything, no matter how much people try to cover their tracks.

The reason I'm telling you all this is because some of the people here that seem so nice and sincere are actually a bunch of phonies. I'm not going to go into details on this site. Not here. This is for the book.

So...the next time these phonies decide to try trashing me behind my back and think they can't be discovered, think again, because it's not that hard to figure identities on such posts. I have had quite enough, thank you. I have absolutely no problem pulling the sheets on people as long as enough evidence is presented.

What is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

You see, I didn't have a real problem with the comments to those articles. That's internet stuff, and it happens. I had a problem when it was discovered that some of the people here who pose as 'legitimate Cooper investigators' actually had a dark side.

That is MY last word on the subject.

You know what - I changed my mind. It's not my last word.
First I'm not your baby and it matters not a whit to me whether or not you dislike me.
Second, just for grins - Seattle nor you have the company rights to "tech". Are you for real?
Third, I don't know why you think that any of what you just wrote is connected in any way, shape , form or fashion to what was posted on here tonight by you in response to my post.

I'm not sure who you are accusing with all of those veiled references in a post to me, and, honestly I don't care. I don't go to those sites you speak of and I personally am of the opinion that crap like that is best ignored because reasonable people see it for what it is.
You saw it, you reported, they took it down. End of story.

You know, if you have a problem with people on this forum then take it up with Quade. Or another novel idea - ignore them. Or even more novel - don't frequent the forum. You've been threatening to get all this IP evidence and post it for a while. Hey, crap or get off the pot.

Maybe, just maybe, when you write your book you should take a good, hard look in the mirror - cause the cooper nut syndrome is obviously contagious.

How do we know that you aren't doing all that stuff on other sites just to get attention for your book? We don't do we? Cause, frankly, you kind of sound obsessed with it if you want to know the truth. - Jeez.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

yep, seems the "OVER NINE HUNDRED FILTHY-ASS COMMENTS" has now taken over the KC top 10,15,20,25 list. over and over the record goes.

might I suggest going to Homeland Security and really get down to the bottom of this amazing mystery. perhaps Rataczak could give some answers.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 245]

Robert99

Smokin99 writes:

So we have transcripts that are incomplete and/or redacted vs multiple eyewitness memory accounts, 30- 40 yrs later, from people who were in the cockpit flying the plane. Ahhhh...the Cooper merry go round.
I yield to the people with more knowledge of flying than I, but I'm not sure I understand why it is assumed that icing would not have occurred under the conditions of this flight even if it is not in the transcript. If I'm remembering correctly, even from Seattle to Portland, there were patches of cloud cover and cold moisture.

But beyond that -- obviously the icing was controllable even if it presented a challenge.

I was mainly wondering about the effects on the flight as far as timing, etc. Or would that be minimal to none? I got sidetracked, but I'm thinking that the answer from R99 and Mr Shutter was yes to minimal or none in this case.

R99 replies:

Smokin, If the temperature, humidity, etc., were favorable, then icing could have happened between Seattle and Portland. However, there is no record of this.

And any icing on this particular evening should not have been a game changer. But the flight crew would have to do more work and the airliner might be a bit harder to handle (since they were hand flying it).

Robert99

Quote

I as others, have heard Rzck's reference to icing and
turbulence, many times. What caught my attention when
reminded today, is Scott's reference to turulence-icing as his
reason for calling back to Cooper at 2005. And of course "2005"
has become pivital since Rczk references it also, through Carr..
in relation to the bailout 10 minutes later.

The general message is clear from both Scott and Rataczak.
They were accomodating Cooper to get rid of him. It is in that
context that each mentions turbulence and icing. Why would they make this up if it wasn't true? Why is there no direct reference to this in the transcripts? The transcripts read:

8:05 pm t1 305:
305: Have attempted on two occasions to make contact with individual he did not reply. Did not reply. Then used PA system and he said, “Everything is Ok”.
MSP: Roger.

[Note@ 8:05 15,000-10,000 160-180kts 15* flp wheels down]


NWA Version: (8:05pm pst) NWA - Crew called HJ and asked him if everything was ok and he replied that it was. This was apparently the last communication the crew had with the HJ.
(mentioned in Rataczack’s testimony to FBI).

No mention of turbulence or icing in either account. No mention
of Scott's reason given in his presentation later for him calling
back to Cooper at 2005. In fact, no mention at all of them trying
to set things up for Cooper to bail except for one note earlier
when Tina came into the cabin saying ... 'he looks likes he's
getting ready to jump' or something to that effect !

And presumably, there is nothing you (Robt99) have found in the
flight path numbers that might be an obvious reference to icing
and turbulence vs. smooth unperturbed flight?

What does embellishing the story gain anyone?

[georger 245]

mrshutter45

yep, seems the "OVER NINE HUNDRED FILTHY-ASS COMMENTS" has now taken over the KC top 10,15,20,25 list. over and over the record goes.

might I suggest going to Homeland Security and really get down to the bottom of this amazing mystery. perhaps Rataczak could give some answers.

Quote

He says he's already with Gates and Microsoft, not to mention the Director of the FBI.

I think his best bet would be to take this mystery and go directly
to a Russian airport and plead for protection/entry into Russia,
China, or Argentina, Equador?

Not even Dvorak, Myers and Weber, or the Titanic! went throught his kind of *xxit*. This is a FIRST in Cooperland?

Good nite Irene -

[mrshutter45 21]

Jo, the map Sluggo uses is the same map the FBI has. I attached the FBI map from there own site. the map is a navigational chart, not a population chart. you must be mixing something up. the path shows plenty of angles Rataczak could of seen Vancouver if the clouds allowed it. if you can't understand these maps, how do you defend what you think you see? perhaps Sluggo made his own map and discoveries as to where Cooper jumped. I don't know, but the maps he supplied on his site were taken from the original 1971 FBI chart. if I'm incorrect someone clue me in on this please.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI