DB Cooper

[Robert99 50]

skyjack71

They turned toward Lake Oswego, putting it 3 miles beind Flight 305.

The T33 had to do S turns and had to throttle back to 135 knotts and fly with it landing gear and flaps down to try to maintain contact with the 727.

They did abort the chase because of ICING. They never saw the 727 but at one point were about 3/4 of mile in trail. They had no communication due to UHF and VHF radio equipment.

This guy had radar contact but not radio contact.

This is in Himmelsbachs book and I know he was stickler for details he never forgave the writer for 2 minor errors in the book.

Jo, The T-33 took off from Portland International Airport and was shortly thereafter directed to intercept the airliner on the southwest side of Portland. When Himmelsbach took off in the National Guard helicopter, it also headed to the southwest side of Portland. This means that the airliner was NOT on V-23 at that point and was bypassing Portland on the west side. There is additional information to support this. Just read the thread.

Since the airliner was maintaining 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed, there was no need for the T-33 to slow to 135 Knots. The T-33 did NOT abort due to icing, but rather because the fighter planes were arriving. The T-33 just got out of their way.

The airliner had VHF radio equipment and the T-33 had UHF radio equipment. The only way they could communicate directly would be on the emergency frequency [121.5] on which both the airliner and T-33 could transmit/receive. However, they did not use that frequency.

It is very unlikely that the T-33 had radar equipment. However, the fighter aircraft did.

All of the above is in Himmelsbach's book which I suggest you read again and slowly.

Robert99

[georger 245]

RobertMBlevins

Flyjack says in part:

Quote

'Lack of money found circulating,, taken outside US immediately, (I wonder if it could be traced in the banking system if spent outside the US in the 1970's)...'

Your suspect sounds interesting indeed, and should be investigated if what you say is accurate. I only want to venture a couple of comments on the money.

Two things:

1) FBI agent Larry Carr, the man assigned to the Cooper case before the current agent Curtis Eng, said in a radio interview from 2008 that most banks gave up the search effort for the bills within three months after the FBI released its 34-page list, and virtually all of them within six months. Reason given was the difficulty involved for tellers to try to compare all their incoming twenties against a 34-page list of 10,000 non-sequential numbers. It was a nearly impossible job from the start.

2) I contacted a senior representative from the Treasury Department (Printing and Engraving) in DC back in 2010. I questioned him on a possible search for the Cooper bills back when the hijacking occurred. He said they receive literally truckloads of bills a day, and such a search, even if it were ordered by the Justice Department, would have been virtually impossible to implement. He said even if any efforts were made, such efforts would have been very short-term and the chances of locating one particular matching bill vitually impossible.

What does this all mean? It means that by April of 1972 it would have been safe for the hijacker to pass the bills with little to no risk of being caught...because no one was looking anyway.

LC said this or that ...
SRTD said this, or that ...

Therefore, I affirmatively say like the expert I am, without the
ability to do even basic math!, that . . . . blah bah blah.

The posts of blustering fools should be given no weight, and
probably should not be read at all.

Or as Geoff Gray said, quote: "Everything he says is highly
suspect, highly, highly highly,... very highly .... VERY VERY
HIGHLY.

Blustering nabobs of positivism! Fools. Clowns.

What does this all mean? I will show you!

[georger 245]

RobertMBlevins

******

I wasn't being paranoid. I just didn't care. And you STILL haven't presented any evidence on your claims that Cooper was a no-pull and went into the Columbia miles off the flight path...

Which is how you explain the Tina Bar money...

Blevins, You actually need to read posts before replying to them. I have NEVER said that Cooper impacted into the Columbia River itself! And that is NOT how I explain the Tina Bar money! Again, read the posts and get your memory fixed.

Robert99

Well...if Cooper had impacted into the ground anywhere around Tina Bar...they would have found some remains of him by now. Probably within days after the hijacking. It isn't exactly a remote wilderness in that area. And if 305 passed through Portland on the SW side, that turn probably wasn't done until about the time they were reaching Vancouver, not further north.

Or, as they say in preschool:

HOW DO YOU KNOW!? YOU AINT THE BOSS OF ME!

[georger 245]

FLYJACK

***

and that tie the particles are from the BOEING plant in Renton WA my Grandfather worked there along with my moms aunt she worked there in the 70s.

But KENNETH'S PARTNER DID and yeah thats were it came from.
His partner worked at the Renton plant as well but good question and interesting to please post again
I miss humans. GC 148 THE GRAY COP

THE MONEY WAS PLANTED IT WAS FOUND ON THE SIDE OF THE LEWIS RIVER ROTTING its all in my book DB COOPER CASE SOLVED 6 13 13 ON DEMAND BOOKS it will be there before Christmas

The evidence indicates that my suspect may have been at the North side of the Bridge of the Gods (the escape route),

My speculation is that he landed east of the flight path but west of Washougal and east of intended LZ and escape route, he could have dropped some money crossing the Washougal at night, perhaps slipped on rocks and stumbled or fell, he may have had a car stashed somewhere east of the Washougal. (pure speculation in the context of my suspect)

I do have a serious question that some here may know,, Is the flight path different between the Mexico and Reno destinations, in other words, did the change to Reno put the plane slightly West of the expected path or would the paths be the same?? I am trying to figure out the "expected" path to Mexico vs "actual" path to Reno.. same or different?

On the tie, the titanium was a rare pure form, said not to be found in airplane manufacture, perhaps, I wouldn't rule it out/in. Further, "GreyCopGC148" left out an explanation for all the other particles found on the tie, my suspect has an explanation for all the identified particles found,,

Clearly, all suspects are circumstantial until evidence puts him on the plane,, My suspect has the best circumstantial case that i have seen, I have tried to rule him out but can't YET, though I did uncover the existence of a "personal" document that I am very confident I will obtain, so hopefully fingerprints and possible DNA will rule him in or out,,, but that may depend on what the FBI REALLY has,,,

BTW.. I was at the Washington Museum Saturday symposium for the Cooper discussion and neither myself nor my suspect is American... and I have not, will not read any Cooper books, I wanted to look at this fresh and objective..

Here is what I have, in general, yes it is circumstantial, I have been trying eliminate him ever since I matched his photo to the Cooper sketch..

NOT US resident re "negotiable American currency" (controversial)
Aviation experience/knowledge/interest
World traveller
WW2 experience in Europe
The particles found on the tie are a match YES a match, all of them
Age, mid to late 40's in 1971
I used Adobe software to transition an obtained photo of suspect at about age 65-75 with the Cooper sketch, it is an amazing match. The position of eyes, jawline, ears, forehead, hairline, everything lines up EXACTLY..
His hair is a bit odd looking, natural but may be mistaken as a toupee
Always wore a tie
"Dan Cooper", has proven exposure to the name, but it is not his name
NOT swarthy, though that witness sitting near him denied swarthiness.. (recent audio interview)
Somewhat effeminate, meek character
Works under pressure
Multilingual
Raleigh's perhaps from Europe WW2 military exposure..
Found evidence that he may have been at the north end of the Bridge of the Gods, a possible escape route,,,
Lack of money found circulating,, taken outside US immediately, (I wonder if it could be traced in the banking system if spent outside the US in the 1970's)

So, interesting, worth pursuing or not... I have a "blended' image between the Cooper sketch and my suspect that is UNBELIEVABLE, but I am reluctant to let it get into the public sphere at this early stage,,,

The evidence indicates that my suspect may have been at the North side of the Bridge of the Gods (the escape route),

what evidence?

and the Adobe software transitioned photo is ... coming soon to theatres near you?

[georger 245]

RobertMBlevins

************

I wasn't being paranoid. I just didn't care. And you STILL haven't presented any evidence on your claims that Cooper was a no-pull and went into the Columbia miles off the flight path...

Which is how you explain the Tina Bar money...

Blevins, You actually need to read posts before replying to them. I have NEVER said that Cooper impacted into the Columbia River itself! And that is NOT how I explain the Tina Bar money! Again, read the posts and get your memory fixed.

Robert99

Well...if Cooper had impacted into the ground anywhere around Tina Bar...they would have found some remains of him by now. Probably within days after the hijacking. It isn't exactly a remote wilderness in that area. And if 305 passed through Portland on the SW side, that turn probably wasn't done until about the time they were reaching Vancouver, not further north.

Or, as they say in preschool:

HOW DO YOU KNOW!? YOU AINT THE BOSS OF ME!

Cause I used to LIVE in Vancouver, that's how I know. Hazel Dell neighborhood, just south of Tina Bar. As far as where Flight 305 was, I believe the map until it's proven to be false, which no one has accomplished yet.

So did I!

I was born and raised in the State of Washington and used to discuss Cooper's hijacking every Thanksgiving!

So... there!

NINNY NANNY NOO NOO!

Im writing from Tokyo - where are you!?

I will keep a copy of you mappola and feed it back to you
some day.

What else do you believe and spew back when people set it out
in front of you, not even knowing the nature of what it is you
are looking at? That seems to be a habitual flaw in you! Couple
that with the inability to do math and Jesus! That's a fatal
impairment for a super-sleuth in heat to have! Kinda of
ridiculous if you ask me. No wonder Gray and Porteous cut and
ran!!

Do you make mappolas for all the girls?

[smokin99 0]

BruceSmith

Quote

"...Robert99 stated:
"If Cooper or someone was going to plant money, in the PDX-VCR vicinity, for someone to find or be directed to, why would they
pick Tina Bar of all places. Why not a public beach much closer
in to Portland and or Vancouver? Why clear up at Tina Bar?

Jo Replies:

It is Tena'a bar and not Tina's bar and that fact has been established for some time. Maybe Tena's bar was chosen because it meant something to the person planting the money..."

Reply,
You are incorrect, Jo. The money was found at Tina Bar. You are also incorrect when you state that the moniker "Tena" has been "established for some time."

It has not. There has been a lot of discussion on this issue, and is confusing since the FBI in many documents and the Palmer Report state that Tina Bar is Tena Bar.

It simply is not. The sign on the beach says Tina Bar, and the Fazios who own the place call it Tina Bar. Now, that has been established for some time, and the pix of the Tina Bar sign has been available for several years in several places at the Mountaiin News.

The question really is: why you continue to feed the Tena Bar canard. This is important. I suspect that you and many others want to divert attention away from an association between Tina Mucklow and the Tina Bar. Remember, Tina Mucklow was a patient at the Lutheran Home Health center in Gresham at the time of the money find, just a few miles upstream from Tina Bar.

Is there a connection between 5,800 dollars of ransom money being found about ten miles away from the sick bed of the primary Norjak witness and both having the name, Tina?

Coincidence? Curious? Telling? Y'all make the call, but shortly after the money was found at Tina Bar, Tina Mucklow's FBI brother-in-law and Tina's sister came to Gresham and bundled her off to the Carmelite Monastery in Eugene, where she remained for twelve years even though the Mother Superior said that Tina "never really fit in here."

What say you, Mrs. Cooper? Are you an agent provacateur causing trouble here with mis-information, or just a wacky gal on meds.

At the risk of becoming persona non grata for defending Jo,
I do not know when the PRIVATE PROPERTY - TINA BAR" sign originated, but I have read that the membership only admittance policy was implemented in "the 1980s". Was the sign placed after the money find as a play on words due to the Cooper/Mucklow Influence? or is it merely a Fazio misspelling coincidence because Tina is the more common spelling of the name?

Just offering up the history as I found it, but really....
If you subscribe to the intentional placement of the money at that location being connected to the flight attendant's name, her Gresham connection, and subsequent whisking away to the convent, a different spelling would not seem to be a significant roadblock to that theory. There's still more than enough for a whoppin "say what??" moment

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Robert99 50]

RobertMBlevins

******

I wasn't being paranoid. I just didn't care. And you STILL haven't presented any evidence on your claims that Cooper was a no-pull and went into the Columbia miles off the flight path...

Which is how you explain the Tina Bar money...

Blevins, You actually need to read posts before replying to them. I have NEVER said that Cooper impacted into the Columbia River itself! And that is NOT how I explain the Tina Bar money! Again, read the posts and get your memory fixed.

Robert99

Well...if Cooper had impacted into the ground anywhere around Tina Bar...they would have found some remains of him by now. Probably within days after the hijacking. It isn't exactly a remote wilderness in that area. And if 305 passed through Portland on the SW side, that turn probably wasn't done until about the time they were reaching Vancouver, not further north. The current radar map presented on the FBI's website shows this. I have attached a copy with some notes.

Blevins, You need some training in navigation and map reading. For starters, the Institute of Navigation has a link on their web page (which you can Goggle) to a free course they offer on navigation to 7th grade students (who are usually 13 years old). You don't even have to sign in to view this course.

On the map you attached, you have Tina Bar sitting on the railroad between Vancouver and Woodland. Tina Bar is actually about four miles south and two miles west of the location you indicated. It is important for you to remember that Tina Bar is actually on the Columbia River itself.

Also on the map you attached are four red "X"s on the southwest side of Portland. Do you know what they mean? This has been discussed at extreme lengths on this thread.

For those reading this for the first time, those red marks indicate that someone was plotting aircraft positions. And if you get a map with those marks and the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersection showing, you will note that sets of two marks line up EXACTLY with the Mayfield Intersection. That is, there are three points on a line (a straight edge) for each case.

Both of the lines mentioned above pass either directly over Tena Bar or within about 1000 feet of Tena Bar.

The airline crew had expressed concern about flying over populated areas even before they took off from Seattle. They were given Carte Blanche to do what ever they felt necessary. Consequently, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that they would fly over Portland in the manner indicated on those maps. In fact, the logical thing to do would be to set a new course to pass southwest of Portland at the time they were making the left turn at the Mayfield Intersection. And they apparently did so.

Where the so-called flight path information on that map came from is not known. But as has been discussed here repeatedly, the times and distances shown for that flight path are completely meaningless. Flying at a constant speed, the airliner would NOT cover three nautical miles in one minute and then six nautical miles in the very next minute. That is fairy tale navigation. It just doesn't happen. Whoever drew that flight path and put those times and locations on it DID NOT know what they were doing.

There is still another map, which Blevins apparently neglected to consider, showing a flight path that is a segmented circle around the west side of Portland. No airline crew would have flown such a thing under these circumstances!

So you think "someone" would have found something related to Cooper by now if he had impacted on or very close to Tina Bar? Maybe they have. Have you heard of the "Tina Bar Money"?

Robert99

[BruceSmith 3]

smokin99

***

Quote

"...Robert99 stated:
"If Cooper or someone was going to plant money, in the PDX-VCR vicinity, for someone to find or be directed to, why would they
pick Tina Bar of all places. Why not a public beach much closer
in to Portland and or Vancouver? Why clear up at Tina Bar?

Jo Replies:

It is Tena'a bar and not Tina's bar and that fact has been established for some time. Maybe Tena's bar was chosen because it meant something to the person planting the money..."

Reply,
You are incorrect, Jo. The money was found at Tina Bar. You are also incorrect when you state that the moniker "Tena" has been "established for some time."

It has not. There has been a lot of discussion on this issue, and is confusing since the FBI in many documents and the Palmer Report state that Tina Bar is Tena Bar.

It simply is not. The sign on the beach says Tina Bar, and the Fazios who own the place call it Tina Bar. Now, that has been established for some time, and the pix of the Tina Bar sign has been available for several years in several places at the Mountaiin News.

The question really is: why you continue to feed the Tena Bar canard. This is important. I suspect that you and many others want to divert attention away from an association between Tina Mucklow and the Tina Bar. Remember, Tina Mucklow was a patient at the Lutheran Home Health center in Gresham at the time of the money find, just a few miles upstream from Tina Bar.

Is there a connection between 5,800 dollars of ransom money being found about ten miles away from the sick bed of the primary Norjak witness and both having the name, Tina?

Coincidence? Curious? Telling? Y'all make the call, but shortly after the money was found at Tina Bar, Tina Mucklow's FBI brother-in-law and Tina's sister came to Gresham and bundled her off to the Carmelite Monastery in Eugene, where she remained for twelve years even though the Mother Superior said that Tina "never really fit in here."

What say you, Mrs. Cooper? Are you an agent provacateur causing trouble here with mis-information, or just a wacky gal on meds.

At the risk of becoming persona non grata for defending Jo,
I do not know when the PRIVATE PROPERTY - TINA BAR" sign originated, but I have read that the membership only admittance policy was implemented in "the 1980s". Was the sign placed after the money find as a play on words due to the Cooper/Mucklow Influence? or is it merely a Fazio misspelling coincidence because Tina is the more common spelling of the name?

Just offering up the history as I found it, but really....
If you subscribe to the intentional placement of the money at that location being connected to the flight attendant's name, her Gresham connection, and subsequent whisking away to the convent, a different spelling would not seem to be a significant roadblock to that theory. There's still more than enough for a whoppin "say what??" moment
Well, Smoke - your excellent research certainly puts another light on the subject. Thank you!

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

"...At the risk of becoming persona non grata for defending Jo,

Don't worry about becoming a persona non grata, Smoke. Good research that is well presented always trumps prissy attitudes from cranky journalists.

Besides, Mrs. Cooper gave me a "Christmas call" a couple days ago, so even in Cooper World relationships can be quite flexible.

[Robert99 50]

RobertMBlevins

I'm not a 13-year-old, neither am I stupid. The map I posted shows the approximate location of Tina Bar. My bad. I should have used Google Maps and overlaid the flight path. Shows Flight 305 between 4 and 6 miles EAST of Tina Bar. Nowhere north of Vancouver does anything presented show the flight on the WEST side of the Interstate 5 freeway, which is where it would have to be for Cooper to end up there. The only other option would be a pancake into the river near Portland...miles back up the river...and doesn't explain how MORE than one bundle of the cash managed to end up in the same exact spot. (If Cooper pancaked in from miles upriver, that is)

You said yesterday you didn't think Cooper went into the river. Okay, that only leaves dirt. So where's the body, the parachutes, the remainder of the money, the briefcase...

Blevins, Why don't you check the referenced ION course before making such statements?

The fact that three bundles of money were found together means that they didn't travel very far to get there. They were covered by sand after traveling a very short distance.

Where is the rest of the money and Cooper remains? Here is a suggestion based on the fact that Tina Bar has been flooded any number of times since the hijacking. For starters, check the western Pacific as I mentioned yesterday.

I don't remember the exact height of the highest water level since the hijacking, but a long time Tina Bar fisherman (who apparently had been there just about ever day for the last 50 years) showed Meyer Louie and myself a marker for that height. My guess is that the highest water level was not more than about 20 feet above sea level.

Something seems to be getting lost in translation from my remarks about the flight path. So let me put it as plainly as I can.

THE FLIGHT PATH SHOWN ON THAT MAP IS BULLSHIT! PERIOD!

Robert99

[Robert99 50]

RobertMBlevins

Here we go again...who is right? You, or the Citizen Sleuths and the FBI. The FBI continues to post that map as the flight path. The Sleuths said they could find nothing wrong with the announced path of the flight. No one has said that the radars were not working that day.

If you are sooo sure that Flight 305 was actually miles WEST of the freeway BEFORE it reached Vancouver...why don't you call up Bill Rataczak and ask him? What will you do if he says no...for example something like this...'Oh, no. I could see the lights of Vancouver out on the right before we got to Portland...'

He's in the phone book. That map might be off a bit. But I don't think it's off as much as you believe, not enough to put the flight that far west before it reached Vancouver.

Blevins, Within the past couple of years Rataczak stated at a public function something to this effect:

"I'm the only one [alive?] who knows the airliner's flight path around Portland."

Could you please explain your interpretation of that remark? Did Rataczak say that the flight path was common knowledge? Did he support the flight path shown on that map?

And for the record, others have stated on this thread that the FBI does not know where that map came from. And Himmelsbach himself has reportedly stated within the recent past that he had never seen that map before.

Dream on!

Robert99

[smokin99 0]

FLYJACK

***

and that tie the particles are from the BOEING plant in Renton WA my Grandfather worked there along with my moms aunt she worked there in the 70s.

But KENNETH'S PARTNER DID and yeah thats were it came from.
His partner worked at the Renton plant as well but good question and interesting to please post again
I miss humans. GC 148 THE GRAY COP

THE MONEY WAS PLANTED IT WAS FOUND ON THE SIDE OF THE LEWIS RIVER ROTTING its all in my book DB COOPER CASE SOLVED 6 13 13 ON DEMAND BOOKS it will be there before Christmas

The evidence indicates that my suspect may have been at the North side of the Bridge of the Gods (the escape route),

My speculation is that he landed east of the flight path but west of Washougal and east of intended LZ and escape route, he could have dropped some money crossing the Washougal at night, perhaps slipped on rocks and stumbled or fell, he may have had a car stashed somewhere east of the Washougal. (pure speculation in the context of my suspect)

I do have a serious question that some here may know,, Is the flight path different between the Mexico and Reno destinations, in other words, did the change to Reno put the plane slightly West of the expected path or would the paths be the same?? I am trying to figure out the "expected" path to Mexico vs "actual" path to Reno.. same or different?

On the tie, the titanium was a rare pure form, said not to be found in airplane manufacture, perhaps, I wouldn't rule it out/in. Further, "GreyCopGC148" left out an explanation for all the other particles found on the tie, my suspect has an explanation for all the identified particles found,,

Clearly, all suspects are circumstantial until evidence puts him on the plane,, My suspect has the best circumstantial case that i have seen, I have tried to rule him out but can't YET, though I did uncover the existence of a "personal" document that I am very confident I will obtain, so hopefully fingerprints and possible DNA will rule him in or out,,, but that may depend on what the FBI REALLY has,,,

BTW.. I was at the Washington Museum Saturday symposium for the Cooper discussion and neither myself nor my suspect is American... and I have not, will not read any Cooper books, I wanted to look at this fresh and objective..

Here is what I have, in general, yes it is circumstantial, I have been trying eliminate him ever since I matched his photo to the Cooper sketch..

NOT US resident re "negotiable American currency" (controversial)
Aviation experience/knowledge/interest
World traveller
WW2 experience in Europe
The particles found on the tie are a match YES a match, all of them
Age, mid to late 40's in 1971
I used Adobe software to transition an obtained photo of suspect at about age 65-75 with the Cooper sketch, it is an amazing match. The position of eyes, jawline, ears, forehead, hairline, everything lines up EXACTLY..
His hair is a bit odd looking, natural but may be mistaken as a toupee
Always wore a tie
"Dan Cooper", has proven exposure to the name, but it is not his name
NOT swarthy, though that witness sitting near him denied swarthiness.. (recent audio interview)
Somewhat effeminate, meek character
Works under pressure
Multilingual
Raleigh's perhaps from Europe WW2 military exposure..
Found evidence that he may have been at the north end of the Bridge of the Gods, a possible escape route,,,
Lack of money found circulating,, taken outside US immediately, (I wonder if it could be traced in the banking system if spent outside the US in the 1970's)

So, interesting, worth pursuing or not... I have a "blended' image between the Cooper sketch and my suspect that is UNBELIEVABLE, but I am reluctant to let it get into the public sphere at this early stage,,,

R99 or Shutter can address this better than I, but you can get a rough estimate from here: http://www.portseattle.org/Sea-Tac/Flights-Airlines/Route-Maps/Pages/Southwest.aspx of routes. Looks like an "intended" route (if he even really had an intended route) would have been different depending where you were going to stop at to refuel. Was asking for Mexico a shrewd move to control the flight path? If so, why didn't he take refueling into account to start with?

Also the flying parameters that he insisted on also had a bearing on the path they could take. Did he set those parameters (flaps, altitude) just to control his jump or to also influence the path?

I don't know - I've often wondered about that Mexico destination. Was he just making it up as he went along or was it part of the plan? I've always leaned towards the former -- I think he had a general idea of where he wanted to jump and he couldn't let them in on that but I'm not seeing anything he said regarding the destination that suggests that he really was trying to influence the flight path. Edited to add: On the other hand -- maybe he knew enough to get on V23 and that was all he really needed to know for his purposes

Re: the flight path - I think there are a lot of question marks - esp when you try to square it up with the transcripts, such as they are. The problem is that some folks think it has to be all or nothing. Like for the money to be a the T-bar, there has to have been a direct flyover of that stretch of beach using a flight path that follows a straight line from the airport to the Columbia crossing.
The original flight path is not a straight line, but for some reason when alternate paths are drawn to show whether a dropzone is probable or not you could straight edge that route. Go figure.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

Robert, you "suggest" a lot of things. most of us are able to handle things on our own. including Robert99.

"Robert Nicholson is a retired Aeronautical Engineer and also a retired general aviation power and sailplane pilot with 750+ hours of powered aircraft time and 1000+ hours of sailplane time (in exactly 1000 sailplane flights). Upon retiring, he held an FAA Commercial Pilot Certificate with private privileges for airplanes and commercial privileges for sailplanes. He also held an FAA Ground Instructor Certificate with Advanced and Instrument Ratings. In the classical tradition, he started learning to fly at the age of 15, soloed a Piper Cub at the age of 16, and received his Private Certificate for powered aircraft at the age of 17. One of the three Piper Cubs he trained in is now suspended over the right wing of the Boeing 707 prototype (the "dash 80") at the National Air and Space Museum Annex on the east side of Dulles International Airport near Washington, DC. That specific Piper Cub is also the only powered aircraft in which he ever experienced a total engine failure. Fortunately, he was still pre-solo with an instructor on board and the instructor made a perfect dead-stick landing into a farm field."

I think he knows what he is doing, no?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

RobertMBlevins

I'm saying you haven't proven it was, or even presented your own version of where the flight was at a given point. I suggest creating your own map somehow and presenting it.

Blevins, If you have read the Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the flight while it was in their area of responsibility, you would know that there is absolutely nothing in those transcripts to locate the actual flight path.

So instead of "creating" another map out of speculations, I'll wait for some actual information on the flight path to surface. Any map based on speculations is worthless.

And again, you could benefit from the ION navigation course mentioned previously. Don't be so dismissive about 13 year olds.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

Robert, your "bla bla" shows you are nothing but a joke when someone confronts you! people are working on things you have no clue about. why? because your attitude stinks. anything new at this form is laughed at by you. that's why things are done off line. no bickering or big heads getting in the way. there are reasons why things don't add up with this case. you won't find them on Google giving a quick I know the answer BS. I will listen to anyone who has a valid option to anything. as for you? looking something up and then trying to be an expert on it is ridiculous from get go. it's a shame more people can't see what goes on beyond this form mainly because of you. the whole problem is that fact of you not seeing yourself in the mirror. one contradiction after another...


here's one for ya. how does someone put Formica on an existing countertop and have a piece left over without changing the dimensions of the counter? answer, the piece got in the attic when they converted it to a business years before Rattenbury, and years after Kenny was gone!

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

RobertMBlevins

Now where's Robert99's case on the flight path? Or like the old television ad: 'Where's the Beef?' Being experienced and intelligent is a great thing, but doesn't excuse you from presenting a rather radical theory without bothering to accompany that theory with a bit of evidence.

Blevins, Where is your proof about who prepared that map? The simple answer is you don't have any. Your claims are just YOUR own speculations.

Where's the beef?

Robert99

[smokin99 0]

RobertMBlevins

***Robert, you "suggest" a lot of things. most of us are able to handle things on our own. including Robert99.

"Robert Nicholson is a retired Aeronautical Engineer and also a retired general aviation power and sailplane pilot with 750+ hours of powered aircraft time and 1000+ hours of sailplane time (in exactly 1000 sailplane flights). Upon retiring, he held an FAA Commercial Pilot Certificate with private privileges for airplanes and commercial privileges for sailplanes. He also held an FAA Ground Instructor Certificate with Advanced and Instrument Ratings. In the classical tradition, he started learning to fly at the age of 15, soloed a Piper Cub at the age of 16, and received his Private Certificate for powered aircraft at the age of 17. One of the three Piper Cubs he trained in is now suspended over the right wing of the Boeing 707 prototype (the "dash 80") at the National Air and Space Museum Annex on the east side of Dulles International Airport near Washington, DC. That specific Piper Cub is also the only powered aircraft in which he ever experienced a total engine failure. Fortunately, he was still pre-solo with an instructor on board and the instructor made a perfect dead-stick landing into a farm field."

I think he knows what he is doing, no?

I've seen Robert's history already. Yes. It's very impressive. On the other hand, Paul Soderlind and his team at NWA were very experienced, and smart as well. And none of them said Cooper jumped near Tina Bar. Soderlind's in the Minnesota Aviation Hall of Fame, by the way, and has a scholarship named for him. He's no slouch either.

Now where's Robert99's case on the flight path? Or like the old television ad: 'Where's the Beef?' Being experienced and intelligent is a great thing, but doesn't excuse you from presenting a rather radical theory without bothering to accompany that theory with a bit of evidence.

1. He has presented timing evidence that the map does not match up with the transcripts AND it appears that the transcripts have been edited because they don't make sense otherwise. If there are problems with the timing, then why would you assume it is accurate or complete? Flight 305 cannot usurp the laws of time and space. If the timing does not match up you have to call the map into question.

2. Where's your source for who did the flight plan that you reference? How do we know that it is the final product? There's stuff on the FBI web site that says that the Amboy chute couldn't be Cooper's. But you question that. So your rationale that the flight map is accurate because it came from the FBI's site is illogical if you believe one and not the other.

3. Did you check out the references on Tom Kaye's flight plan analysis? Just saying.....

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[smokin99 0]

RobertMBlevins

I think the final decision that the flight was headed for Reno was made on the ground in Seattle...(*thinks so, anyway*)

That's correct, but I don't think that is what he was asking. I think the question was "would the path for the original destination that he asked for be the same or different then the path to Reno". Or at least that was my take on it.

I am reposting my response to flyjack hoping that one of our flight experts will opine on the questions that I bolded.

================================================

R99 or Shutter can address this better than I, but you can get a rough estimate from here: http://www.portseattle.org/...Pages/Southwest.aspx Looks like an "intended" route (if he even really had an intended route) would have been different depending where you were going to stop at to refuel. Was asking for Mexico a shrewd move to control the flight path? If so, why didn't he take refueling into account to start with?

Also the flying parameters that he insisted on also had a bearing on the path they could take. Did he set those parameters (flaps, altitude) just to control his jump or to also influence the path?

I don't know - I've often wondered about that Mexico destination. Was he just making it up as he went along or was it part of the plan? I've always leaned towards the former -- I think he had a general idea of where he wanted to jump and he couldn't let them in on that but I'm not seeing anything he said regarding the destination that suggests that he really was trying to influence the flight path. Edited to add: On the other hand -- maybe he knew enough to get on V23 and that was all he really needed to know for his purposes

Re: the flight path - I think there are a lot of question marks - esp when you try to square it up with the transcripts, such as they are. The problem is that some folks think it has to be all or nothing. Like for the money to be a the T-bar, there has to have been a direct flyover of that stretch of beach using a flight path that follows a straight line from the airport to T Bar.
The original flight path as shown is not a straight line, but for some reason when alternate paths are drawn to show whether a dropzone is probable or not you could straight edge that route. Go figure.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

"...Blevins, Within the past couple of years Rataczak stated at a public function something to this effect:

'I'm the only one [alive?] who knows the airliner's flight path around Portland...'"

Here's what Rataczak and Himmelsbach told me about the flight path.

In a 70-minute phone interview with Bill in 2009, he told me the following:

Initially he said, "It's an enigma." (the position of 305 when Cooper jumped)

A few minutes later he expanded on those words and said, "I don't know where we were that night...only the FAA and the FBI have access to that information."

Towards the end of our conversation he told me, "We were east of Victor 23. How far? Eh. Two or three miles maybe."

Lastly he said, "The wind blew us east of Victor 23."

In 2010 I followed-up with Ralph. Point-blank he told me that 305 flew over the Washougal, far east of V-23.

I asked him why he was so certain of that.

"Because that's what Rataczak told me," he replied.

We also know that Larry Carr has vassilated hugely on this issue. For a long time he was a big proponent of the Washougal theory. Then he was a firm believer in the V-23 pathway. Larry also waivered on the LZ, claiming Washougal, then supporting the Ariel-Amboy site, and then just before he left town in 2009, he reportedly was claiming Battleground as the LZ. However, Larry never told me that directly.

Reviewing all of this, one can make a couple of assumptions. One is that a lot of people in Norjak are forgetful.

Another notion is that a lot of people in Norjak don't want us to know the truth.

I go with the latter perspective because when people have fuzzy memories, like Dorwin Schroeder, they usually tell me about it or make a joke. Bill changed his story all in one conversation and never broke a sweat. He either has a neurological impairment or missed a beat in his spin story.

[Robert99 50]

BruceSmith

Another notion is that a lot of people in Norjak don't want us to know the truth.

I go with the latter perspective because when people have fuzzy memories, like Dorwin Schroeder, they usually tell me about it or make a joke. Bill changed his story all in one conversation and never broke a sweat. He either has a neurological impairment or missed a beat in his spin story.

Bruce, I suggest that you have the right "notion" above.

I have to take get an extremely important matter off the pad tomorrow morning. Then when time permits, I'll post an analysis of George Harrison's 23 pages of information that are available on the Washington State Museum's Cooper site.

But don't get your hopes up. While all is not lost, no ready answers are forthcoming either.

Even the sacred 8:22PM location will get the rug pulled out from under it. It appears that it was actually 8:18PM when the airliner was at that location. And that location is a long way from where "Blevins' map" (formerly "so-called FBI map") indicates the airliner was at 8:18PM.

Robert99

[smokin99 0]

BruceSmith

Quote

"...Blevins, Within the past couple of years Rataczak stated at a public function something to this effect:

'I'm the only one [alive?] who knows the airliner's flight path around Portland...'"

Here's what Rataczak and Himmelsbach told me about the flight path.
>In a 70-minute phone interview with Bill in 2009, he told me the following:
>Initially he said, "It's an enigma." (the position of 305 when Cooper jumped)
>A few minutes later he expanded on those words and said, "I don't know where we were that night...only the FAA and the FBI have access to that information."
>Towards the end of our conversation he told me, "We were east of Victor 23. How far? Eh. Two or three miles maybe."
>Lastly he said, "The wind blew us east of Victor 23."
>In 2010 I followed-up with Ralph. Point-blank he told me that 305 flew over the Washougal, far east of V-23.
>I asked him why he was so certain of that.
>"Because that's what Rataczak told me," he replied.
>We also know that Larry Carr has vassilated hugely on this issue. For a long time he was a big proponent of the Washougal theory. Then he was a firm believer in the V-23 pathway. Larry also waivered on the LZ, claiming Washougal, then supporting the Ariel-Amboy site, and then just before he left town in 2009, he reportedly was claiming Battleground as the LZ. However, Larry never told me that directly.
>Reviewing all of this, one can make a couple of assumptions. One is that a lot of people in Norjak are forgetful.
>Another notion is that a lot of people in Norjak don't want us to know the truth.
>I go with the latter perspective because when people have fuzzy memories, like Dorwin Schroeder, they usually tell me about it or make a joke. Bill changed his story all in one conversation and never broke a sweat. He either has a neurological impairment or missed a beat in his spin story.

I get where you're coming from but I also wonder if it's not just a case of the fish getting bigger every time they tell the story. I wonder if they really know the whole truth anymore. (I'm talking about the participants now, not the FBI)

For example, if you read interviews or stories that involve Bill R - it's like where in the heck was Capt Scott?

Every interaction is first person Bill "I told the ground crew in no uncertain terms to quit playing games", I said this, I said that, I did this, I did that.
It's like Cossey and "his" parachute.

So....you have to wonder are they telling the truth when they contradict themselves or make it all about them? If you conclude that the story is suspect, then you have to ask are they deliberately "lying" or did their roles just keep getting elevated with every re-telling and the story just kind of "evolves". I don't know the answer to that and I'm not saying that this is the case with Bill R's part in the saga - just putting it out there for what it's worth.

It bears repeating.... Egos and memories are funny, funny things.

Excerpt from WSHM interview transcript "Scotty said, What do you think you guys, should we leave Tina back there with him and get out? Then they couldn’t go anyway, cause they don’t have a crew to fly it.

And I said, Well Scotty, if you give me a direct order to go out of the airplane, I’m gonna say no, I’m not. I’ll tell everybody you gave a direct order to that irascible copilot to get out of the airplane, but he decided to stay there. I can’t in good conscience leave Tina alone back there with this guy…"

So we all agreed that was the way to go, so we stayed there but in the meantime, before the flight attendants--the other two, Tina, and excuse me, Florence and Alice, before they decided to get out, Andy said, “Bill, they haven’t left the airplane yet.”

I said, open the door. So I told the two girls, I said you two get off this airplane right now or I’m going to come out of this seat and plant my 9 ½ in a part of your anatomy and you may not touch a stair all the way down the hill. That was something like that anyway… And they looked at me like, “Well who does he think he is?” and down they went."

Hmmmmmm.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[smokin99 0]

general musings....

As for the FBI not wanting us to know the truth....you might be right, but I also believe that they never really recovered the momentum that they lost from not calling the shots and being privy to every single syllable that was uttered and every single action from the time the note was given to Flo.

They were playing second fiddle to Northwest for sure and maybe the FAA too. And then there were the turf problems within their own organization.

Makes you wonder with all the vacillations, misdirection, the inconsistent access rules, not to mention the missing evidence that permeates this case - does any one entity even have all of the facts of the case? I seriously doubt it.

Maybe at one time this was an embarrassment for the FBI, but, at this point, I sometimes wonder if they really care anymore.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Robert99 50]

Blevins writes:

The FBI keeps it on their website...you should be asking them.

R99 replies:

The FBI probably keeps several hundred pages of information on their public Cooper web site. It appears to be mostly newspaper clippings and such. I doubt if the FBI would be willing to swear to the accuracy of much, or any, of it.

Blevins writes:

BTW...I just tried to PM you Bill Rataczak's address and phone. Didn't realize you felt so threatened by me, or that I had sent you SO many messages (like about zero, I think) that you had me blocked.

R99 replies:

Sorry, but I DON'T feel threatened by you. I have just checked the PMs that we exchanged on July 17th and 18th, 2011, and the number does not compute as zero. I don't remember exactly when the PM block was put it, but it was probably about that time.

Blevins writes:

You know, it's traditional to WAIT until someone sends you a bad message before blocking them.

R99 replies:

I apparently didn't get that memo.

Robert99

[FLYJACK 716]

smokin99

general musings....



Makes you wonder with all the vacillations, misdirection, the inconsistent access rules, not to mention the missing evidence that permeates this case - does any one entity even have all of the facts of the case? I seriously doubt it.

Sure seems that way, so what will or does it take to put a suspect on the plane.. is it even possible?

[mrshutter45 21]

"PM me...that is unless you've already blocked me from PM's because I'm so dangerous."

that has nothing to do with the reason people are blocking you. if you can't fiure it out, I don't know what to tell you. it's a sign of something wrong

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI