DB Cooper

[mrshutter45 21]

the tear in the placard (middle bottom) shouldn't happen from the top down. the adhesive is usually pretty good. similar to what they put on cars being towed. it's hard to say how it got so damaged. Georger believes it was on exit. I'm not sure about that because it would also destroy anyone jumping out? all survived the blast. 

If the placard encroached on the top portion of the panel. it's possible the damage occurred that way once it was removed..

[FLYJACK 735]

2 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

the tear in the placard (middle bottom) shouldn't happen from the top down. the adhesive is usually pretty good. similar to what they put on cars being towed. it's hard to say how it got so damaged. Georger believes it was on exit. I'm not sure about that because it would also destroy anyone jumping out? all survived the blast. 

If the placard encroached on the top portion of the panel. it's possible the damage occurred that way once it was removed..

It could have been the jet blast,, still lots of unknowns.

It does look like it was ripped off top downward, the missing piece remaining center bottom.. the rivet/screw stopping that portion below from separating.

 

[mrshutter45 21]

no need for any type of rivets..I have never seen a placard of this type attached that way. 

[mrshutter45 21]

I don't see any pop rivets on the decal on the door? 

[FLYJACK 735]

8 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I don't see any pop rivets on the decal on the door? 

right, that is the main door.. I found no rivets for any similar placards that suggests the rivets weren't for the placard but for the emergency access panel itself. When pulled they release from wall.

 

something like this..

Edited May 5, 2019 by FLYJACK

[mrshutter45 21]

I use rivets a lot. this doesn't look like the work of rivets. only the top right could suggest it. the material is very thin and the pop rivet would fail quickly with force. the scale you show is much smaller than the card. it's somewhere around 6" in height. the panel in whole is somewhere in the 6 to 8" height. it would cover the holes. 

[mrshutter45 21]

I'm going to try something....I have 1/8 pop rivets and some thin plastic..

Edited May 5, 2019 by mrshutter45

[FLYJACK 735]

7 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I use rivets a lot. this doesn't look like the work of rivets. only the top right could suggest it. the material is very thin and the pop rivet would fail quickly with force. the scale you show is much smaller than the card. it's somewhere around 6" in height. the panel in whole is somewhere in the 6 to 8" height. it would cover the holes. 

We are using the term rivet, but they may be some fastener that enables a release from the wall. 

They held the thicker plastic access door to the wall not the placard to the door.

 

My point is the "rivets/screws/fasteners" weren't for the placard at all, they were for the plastic access door.

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by FLYJACK

[mrshutter45 21]

pop rivets

[mrshutter45 21]

It's on a aluminum frame. pop rivets would not be the weapon of choice for a release of the panel.

[mrshutter45 21]

why they hinged one and not the other is beyond me..NASA did the same thing. command mod had square cartridges while the LEM had round ones to control Carbon monoxide. 

[FLYJACK 735]

1 minute ago, mrshutter45 said:

pop rivets

You are getting lost in the weeds.. rivets were used for solid signage.

The placard found was a thin decal that was folded up.. there are no similar ones fixed with rivets/screws/fasteners.

That indicates the holes in the placard were not used to affix it but something else it was stuck to.

[mrshutter45 21]

you keep claiming the placard has rivet signs? 

[FLYJACK 735]

2 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

It's on a aluminum frame. pop rivets would not be the weapon of choice for a release of the panel.

WE don't know if they were rivets we are using that term for brevity..

 

Those rivets/screws/fasteners - whatever - would not be attached to the al frame, they'd be permanently attached to some clip or release on the back of the access door..

the back of that access door probably has 5 clips on it.

[mrshutter45 21]

clips would be the option to use. rivets are strong and would hold the panel on permanently..

[mrshutter45 21]

A panel that small would not require that many clips...

[FLYJACK 735]

2 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

clips would be the option to use. rivets are strong and would hold the panel on permanently..

I give up... you've lost the plot

Edited May 5, 2019 by FLYJACK

[mrshutter45 21]

yes, it needs a break away. pop rivets won't do that. clip will. it appears the panel is too small for this placard. Hominid believes each airline might of had there own placards. some could of been small enough to fit the panel while others could be above or beside the panel itself. 

I doubt the placard came first. if that is what you are suggesting? 

[mrshutter45 21]

Hominid...

The placard was on the outside of a panel door that was adjacent to the normal airstair 

control handle.  It was "stuck" there with adhesive.  It was probably made of metal foil, 

but might have been plastic.  Inside that door was the control that the placard related 

to, the control for the "emergency" (pneumatic) airstair extension system.  The control 

was a red handle that had to be pulled hard in order to break a lockwire.  NWA did not 

want people pulling the handle by mistake thinking it to be the normal way of dropping the 

stair.  This is why it was inside a "cabinet" and had the lockwire.  They didn't want it 

to be used for a routine dropping of the airstair because using this system would damage 

the stair such that it would have to be repaired before it could be closed and locked for 

flight.

 

If you can get info from Boeing, and you want it to be about the placard, ask about the 

emergency pneumatic airstair extension placard that was on the NWA 727-51s in the early 

'70s.  It's likely they won't know about the placard as it may well have been made by NWA 

or under contract to NWA.  It's even possible that Boeing did not install the system for 

NWA.  The control for some other airlines were a bit different and were located different.

[FLYJACK 735]

45 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

yes, it needs a break away. pop rivets won't do that. clip will. it appears the panel is too small for this placard. Hominid believes each airline might of had there own placards. some could of been small enough to fit the panel while others could be above or beside the panel itself. 

I doubt the placard came first. if that is what you are suggesting? 

I think the placard was on the emergency access door, it may have been above but unlikely.

Why,, the holes from rivets/screws/fasteners or "whatever" would not be there to hold the placard to the wall or anything. It is a decal.. 

The access door needs something to affix it to the underlying panel that releases when pulled. The finger holes at the top makes the 5 clip pattern I suggested work. The pull leverage is from the top down.

You would need at least 5 points for spring or tension clips to hold it securely. 

So, the placard/decal is stuck to the access door and the access door has 5 "rivets/screws/fasteners" holding clips to the backside of it. The rivet/screw heads are on top of the placard/decal. That suggests placard/decal was affixed to door before clips and originally by Boeing.

It is unlikely you'd get that pattern of tear holes in the placard any other way. 

I'd expect 5 plastic spring clips permanently attached to the back of the plastic access door.. probably rivets but maybe screws or something similar?

 

SOOOO, if the access door went missing during NORJAK why didn't they notice it?

 

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 735]

53 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Hominid...

The placard was on the outside of a panel door that was adjacent to the normal airstair 

control handle.  It was "stuck" there with adhesive.  It was probably made of metal foil, 

but might have been plastic.  Inside that door was the control that the placard related 

to, the control for the "emergency" (pneumatic) airstair extension system.  The control 

was a red handle that had to be pulled hard in order to break a lockwire.  NWA did not 

want people pulling the handle by mistake thinking it to be the normal way of dropping the 

stair.  This is why it was inside a "cabinet" and had the lockwire.  They didn't want it 

to be used for a routine dropping of the airstair because using this system would damage 

the stair such that it would have to be repaired before it could be closed and locked for 

flight.

 

If you can get info from Boeing, and you want it to be about the placard, ask about the 

emergency pneumatic airstair extension placard that was on the NWA 727-51s in the early 

'70s.  It's likely they won't know about the placard as it may well have been made by NWA 

or under contract to NWA.  It's even possible that Boeing did not install the system for 

NWA.  The control for some other airlines were a bit different and were located different.

Most were installed by Boeing on the early 727-100's

Hominid is correct some kits were sold "after"...

The placard may been custom or factory or there may have been no placard..

The placard looks like it has a number on it bottom right, that is probably a part number that the FBI used to claim it matches a 727.. that indicates it was a Boeing part, not custom. 

If it came during NORJAK without the access door then pieces would have been left behind on the wall, noticed  and can be matched, it wasn't. The FBI claimed it "matched" placards for the 727 not that exact 727. If it came off with the access door it would have been noticed missing. 

 

Conclusion, unlikely it came off during NORJAK. 

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 735]

Looking for "placards" that are held on with "rivets/screws" I found the Martin 202A.. they also had ventral airstairs. They were also used by Northwest.

Cooper had aviation experience but didn't understand the operation for the 727 airstairs, maybe he got the jump idea from the older gen Martin 202A...  were there any other older gen planes with ventral stairs?

EDIT: there was also the later Martin 404 with ventral stairs and pressurized, which was also used in the navy. Maybe Cooper flew or was involved with these planes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_4-0-4

I always thought Cooper Boeing employee and 727 expert was a red herring..

If Cooper was in "aviation" or flew frequently and 45-50 yrs old, he'd have exposure to these..

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 342]

6 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

it's hard to say how it got so damaged. Georger believes it was on exit. I'm not sure about that because it would also destroy anyone jumping out?

Not sure exactly what you mean, but a person would easily survive a 200mph exit. Fighter pilots eject at much higher speeds.

[dudeman17 342]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

were there any other older gen planes with ventral stairs?

DC-9's came out in '65

[mrshutter45 21]

1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

Not sure exactly what you mean, but a person would easily survive a 200mph exit. Fighter pilots eject at much higher speeds.

It's in reference to the damage of the placard. how it got in the condition it was found. it didn't seem to affect skydivers so what would it do to the card? 

Edited May 5, 2019 by mrshutter45