DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 719]

38 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

Fly-

I was going through the latest FBI documents (47/48/49) and didn't see anything related to Max Gunther, did you see anything?

Nothing on Gunther specifically,, but this in #48 is very similar to Gunther's experience.

[CooperNWO305 152]

On 8/6/2020 at 9:13 PM, FLYJACK said:

Nothing on Gunther specifically,, but this in #48 is very similar to Gunther's experience.

Good find. I’m guessing this is not the same person who wrote to Max Gunther though. Unfortunately I’ve seen nothing in the 302s about Gunther. 2 FOIAs returned zero. He claims he talked to the FBI and sent them his info, but nothing has surfaced yet. 

[CooperNWO305 152]

4 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Max Gunther's story was a joke on the Cooper case. Personal opinion.

Check his history sometime and study it. The book is a clone of Ha Ha Ha, but without any disclaimers or offering a reward.

Not the same plot, but goal was the same. Money, what else? 

Gunther wins the contest, since more copies of his book have been printed and sold than copies of Ha Ha Ha. 

Robert. What about his history makes you conclude he would write a fake story? 

[FLYJACK 719]

Video...  Tom Kaye explains his Diatom research....

 

[Andrade1812 51]

Before reading the book, I thought Gunther's story was going to be a joke too. However, his "Dan LeClair" matches Tom Kaye's tie findings and the recent FOIA documents show Gunther somehow knew about the investigation at Elsinore Paracenter. Gunther died before he could benefit from Kaye's spectroscopy work, so unless he had a time machine...

I don't particularly care about the rest of his oeuvre, he was a writer trying to make a living. You do what you got to do.

I sourced everything in Gunther's book. He only talked to two FBI agents, J Earl Milnes and Ralph Himmelsbach. 

 

 

[CooperNWO305 152]

19 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

Before reading the book, I thought Gunther's story was going to be a joke too. However, his "Dan LeClair" matches Tom Kaye's tie findings and the recent FOIA documents show Gunther somehow knew about the investigation at Elsinore Paracenter. Gunther died before he could benefit from Kaye's spectroscopy work, so unless he had a time machine...

I don't particularly care about the rest of his oeuvre, he was a writer trying to make a living. You do what you got to do.

I sourced everything in Gunther's book. He only talked to two FBI agents, J Earl Milnes and Ralph Himmelsbach. 

 

 

Andrade/Robert---

Does Gunther mention Milnes in his book?  Himmelsbach acknowledged Gunther as late as 2018, but not in a good light.  I believe Gunther did talk to the FBI, but what I'd like to see is the documentation he claimed he sent them.  That's where a few more FOIA's might help.  At a minimum, there should be 302's with his name mentioned.  My experience with FOIA is that it is similar to an insurance claim, the standard is that it gets denied the first time.  In my case, first and second.  Someone with some time on their hands could send more requests.

Robert, you seem to be in the same group as most, in that you have not read the book.  I'll be happy to send you a copy or a gift card to get one.  I acknowledge that some of it is filler/made up, but a lot of it just seems to much to be a full on fake. I agree he could have heard about Elsinore, but something about that just makes me think he got it from Cooper.  There was a letter from the man claiming to be Cooper, and Gunther did put an ad in the Village Voice (that is in the book, and I've seen the actual on microfiche).

I picture Himmelsbach as not being a fan of Max Gunther's type.  Gunther was a playboy, and Cooper had a certain style to him as well.  Himmelsbach was just too much of a straight shooter to find any interest or commonality with Cooper or Gunther.  I feel like I've crossed paths with all three types in my life.

This could be a coincidence, but I find it a little fishy when I see a major US newspaper publish a book review on Gunther's book, right next to an article on FBI agent Himmelsbach's book.  One could argue that the FBI agent had some bias in favor of his perspective over that of Max Gunther's.  See attached.  Gunther was discredited from the start by the same FBI agent who said DB Cooper was a "sleazy crook" and who said he died in the jump.  

 

 

Max Gunther Book Review SF Examiner Ralph book 9-25-85.pdf

Edited August 9, 2020 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 719]

A funny comment Hahneman made to the stew during his hijacking...

"When are you people going to tighten up your security, it's (hijacking) becoming a national pastime."

 

..

[FLYJACK 719]

The flightpath radar data was re-plotted with a more accurate computer method... 

 

Guess what,,  NO Western Flight Path... 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by FLYJACK

[Andrade1812 51]

11 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Andrade/Robert---

Does Gunther mention Milnes in his book?  Himmelsbach acknowledged Gunther as late as 2018, but not in a good light.  I believe Gunther did talk to the FBI, but what I'd like to see is the documentation he claimed he sent them.  That's where a few more FOIA's might help.  At a minimum, there should be 302's with his name mentioned.  My experience with FOIA is that it is similar to an insurance claim, the standard is that it gets denied the first time.  In my case, first and second.  Someone with some time on their hands could send more requests.

Robert, you seem to be in the same group as most, in that you have not read the book.  I'll be happy to send you a copy or a gift card to get one.  I acknowledge that some of it is filler/made up, but a lot of it just seems to much to be a full on fake. I agree he could have heard about Elsinore, but something about that just makes me think he got it from Cooper.  There was a letter from the man claiming to be Cooper, and Gunther did put an ad in the Village Voice (that is in the book, and I've seen the actual on microfiche).

I picture Himmelsbach as not being a fan of Max Gunther's type.  Gunther was a playboy, and Cooper had a certain style to him as well.  Himmelsbach was just too much of a straight shooter to find any interest or commonality with Cooper or Gunther.  I feel like I've crossed paths with all three types in my life.

This could be a coincidence, but I find it a little fishy when I see a major US newspaper publish a book review on Gunther's book, right next to an article on FBI agent Himmelsbach's book.  One could argue that the FBI agent had some bias in favor of his perspective over that of Max Gunther's.  See attached.  Gunther was discredited from the start by the same FBI agent who said DB Cooper was a "sleazy crook" and who said he died in the jump.  

 

 

Max Gunther Book Review SF Examiner Ralph book 9-25-85.pdf 625.27 kB · 2 downloads

Great article, really puts Gunther's decision to publish into perspective.

From what I gathered just looking at the text, Gunther talked extensively with Ralph Himmelsbach, and he almost certainly spoke with SA Milnes as the text reads like a stylized newspaper interview. Unfortunately, it looks like Milnes was feeding him absolute garbage. I write a little about it in my book.

It appears Gunther talked to Cossey, but otherwise he didn't talk to any other skydivers. Cossey, at this point, still believed Cooper survived. 

Checking my notes, Gunther talked to or at least cited SA Harold Campbell Jr and one snippet was credited to an anonymous FBI agent. Otherwise, it looks like much of Gunther's text was summarized from newspaper accounts. I haven't counted the number of pages directly related to Clara's story, but it's not much.

As for whether Clara was an FBI plant sent to feed misinformation to a best-selling journalist, there's still the problem of the time traveling FBI agent who tells Clara to tell Gunther to make Dan Cooper an outside sales guy, manager and executive in the industrial chemicals industry so it matches up with Tom Kaye's tie findings in 2008.

Gunther also made Cooper a French Canadian before the Dan Cooper Comics lead was discovered.

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Andrade1812

[Andrade1812 51]

Anyone who wore a tie would have had limited exposure to the chemicals, yet there they are on the tie. Tom Kaye says we're looking for an engineer or manager in the industrial chemicals world. Gunther's LeClair was a manager in industrial chemicals, among several positions held at several chemical companies over many years, according to the book. More information on the tie and Kaye's conclusions can be found at Kaye's website. 

Regardless, Gunther's story is the only one that has had major connections to the recent research done by Tom Kaye, not to mention the Elsinore investigation explicated in the FBI FOIA documents, an investigation no one had ever heard or talked about until after the FOIA documents were released. Gunther's book warrants further investigation.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Andrade1812

[FLYJACK 719]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The flightpath radar data was re-plotted with a more accurate computer method... 

 

Guess what,,  NO Western Flight Path... 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

Details on the computer re-plotting of the flightpath... accuracy was improved from 1 mile to 1/2 mile. The new search area was partially outside the original.

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 152]

Gunther said that "Cooper" contacted two other editors/publishers.  He named them in his book.  It would seem to me if you were named in a book, but it was a lie, then wouldn't they have said that?  

I believe a man did contact Gunther.

[Andrade1812 51]

There are plenty of wrong details about the hijacking in the book. The reason is simple, Clara didn't know them because she wasn't on the plane. I go into those errors in depth in my book.

[FLYJACK 719]

Looking for the TBAR money height...

Eric is claiming 14 ft.. I don't know where that comes from but the same location could be at a different height in 1971 than it was 1979.. due to erosion. It appears to be lower (river higher) in images in 1979 vs 1971 but I am not sure.

The average River height is 4-11 ft.

Tides alone range 1-2 ft..

Freighter wakes can be 2-3 ft.

The seasonal high Columbia flow is in May/June

Palmer concluded that money was washed up from the River within a year of the find.

 

Given these variables, you don't require a flood to deposit money on TBAR in spring.

 

Anybody know the the money spot height in 1971 and in 1979?? 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 719]

Looked at the news report from 1980, the time of the money find...  the money was at high water mark. You don't need a flood to explain it being deposited. The 72 and 74 flood level is a red herring. Highest flow is Spring.

 

along the high water mark..

 

 

 

Guy leaning on stake at the find spot.

 

Washed up by high water and wave action..

 

Note debris at high water mark @ 53 seconds.. looks about 30 ft from waterline.

 

(this vid won't embed)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH5XlEwEIzE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by FLYJACK

[Andrade1812 51]

Gunther's book shouldn't be graded as a book, but as a source document for the only Cooper story to have forensic science confirm parts of the story after the fact.

 

[Coopy 2]

On 8/8/2020 at 3:33 PM, Andrade1812 said:

However, his "Dan LeClair" matches Tom Kaye's tie findings and the recent FOIA documents show Gunther somehow knew about the investigation at Elsinore Paracenter

Also interesting that Dan LeClair was French Canadian.  Gunther put this forward long before the Canadian Air Force pilot Dan Cooper comic connection was made by Agent Carr.  I believe the comic was written in French.

As mentioned above.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Coopy

[FLYJACK 719]

14 minutes ago, Coopy said:

Also interesting that Dan LeClair was French Canadian.  Gunther put this forward long before the Canadian Air Force pilot Dan Cooper comic connection was made by Agent Carr.  I believe the comic was written in French.

As mentioned above.

 

I found the Dan Cooper comic was published in Mexico for Spanish Latin America.. In fact, I have a copy from Mexico.

Cooper was described as Latin American.

Edited August 11, 2020 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 719]

8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

 

Maybe. Or maybe he had a good tan. FBI calls him White on the wanted poster, with 'Latin appearance'. That can mean any number of racial profiles, even Italian or Sicilian to a degree. Some others. 

No witnesses said he had a tan,, it was the end of November.

Back then "White" or "Caucasian" was a normal descriptor for those of Latin race. It was replaced with "Latino" in the early 70's..

Hahneman described himself as white... today that would be latino.

 

The ONLY well known suspect that matches the description of Cooper is Hahneman. Honduran mother, German father.

Cooper was olive, swarthy and latin in appearance, characteristics and descent, also described as possible Mexican or American-Indian.

FBI PART 11 P 1922
FOLLOWING COMPOSITE TAKEN FROM INTERVIEWS OF WITNESSES WHO WERE IN A POSITION TO SEE UNSUB.

RACE, WHITE; SEX, MALE; AGE, MID FORTY'S; FIVE FT TEN TO SIX FT . , ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TO ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY POUNDS, AVERAGE TO WELL BUILT, OLIVE COMPLEXION, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH COMPLEXION, DARK BROWN OR BLACK HAIR, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON LEFT, COMBED BACK; SIDEBURNS, LOW EAR LEVEL; EYES, POSSIBLY BROWN, 


FBI PART 11 P 1982
DESCRIBED AS WHITE, MALE, MID FORTIES, SEVENTY TO ONE EIGHTY, OLIVE COMPLEXION, OR BLACK HAIR, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON SMOKED RALEIGH CIGARETTES.
 

FBI PART 11 P 2036
Mr. MILNES said the hijacker was described as white, male, American, olive complexion, Latin appearance, black hair, normal hair style parted on left, age middle forties, six feet tall, 170 to 175 pounds, average build, brown eyes. He was wearing a black suit, white shirt, narrow black tie, black rain-type overcoat, black dress suit, and was carrying a dark briefcase.
 

FBI PART 11 P 2047
UNSUB described as white male, mid-forties, five ten to six feet, one seventy to one eighty,olive complexion, latin appearance, dark brown or black hair combed straight back in normal

style, parted on left, smoked Raleigh cigarettes.
 

FBI PART 11 P 2056
that he has average eyes, of Latin appearance, with a sort of disinterested look


FBI PART 11 P 2224
WHITE, MALE, MID 40's, 5'10" TO 6" , 170 Tel 180 lbs., AVERAGE TO WELL BUILT, OLIVE COMPLEXION, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH, DARK BROWN OR BLACK HAIR, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON LEFT, COMBED BACK, SIDEBURNS, LOW EAR LEVEL, POSSIBLY BROWN EYES, DURING LATTER PART OF FLIGHT PUTr DARK, WRAP-AROUND SUNGLASSES WITH DARK RIMS. LOW VOICE, SPOKE INTELLIGENTLY; NO PARTICULAR ACCENT, POSSIBLY FROM MIDWEST SECTION OF THE U.S., HEAVY SMOKER OF RALEIGH FILTER TIP CIGARETTES, WEARING BLACK OR BROWN SUIT; WHITE SHIRT; NARROW BLACK TIE; BLACK DRESS SUIT;

FBI PART 11 P 1987
COMPLEXION: OLIVE, SWARTHY, THE LATIN TYPE



FBI PART 11 P 1841
COMPLEXION: OLIVE, LATIN APPERANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH


FBI PART 18 P5497
RACE WHITE, SEX MALE, AGE MID FORTIES, HEIGHT FIVE FEET TEN INCHES TO SIX FEET, WEIGHT ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TO ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY POUNDS, BUILD AVERAGE TO WELL BUILT, COMPLEXION OLIVE, LATIN APPEARANCE, MEDIUM SMOOTH; HAIR DARK BROWN OR BLACK, NORMAL STYLE, PARTED ON LEFT, COMBED BACK, SIDEBURNS, LOW EAR LEVEL; EYES POSSIBLY BROWN.


FBI PART 26 P 8545
He was unable to determine from the photograph the complexion of ______ but again emphasized the hijackerhad a swarthy or Latin type complexionand it appeared to him might have such a complexion.


FBI PART 26 P 8574
OLIVE OR LATIN COMPLEXION·
Key witnesses generally agree that unsub had an "olive or Latin" complexion.- One witness indicated a Mexican-American or possibly Indian complexion and characteristics. In addition, unsub expressed a desire to go "anywhere in Mexico”.


FBI PART 26 P 8881
She thereafter remained in the cockpit where she prepared thirteen pages of notes concerning the hijacking and in which she described unsub as in his fifties. She later said he appeared to be of Latin descent.


FBI PART 19 P 5934
"Enclosed is an artist's conception of the hijacker who extorted two hundred thousand dollars from Northwest Airlines on November 24, 1971. This man is described as follows:

"Race-white; sex-male; age mid-forties; height-five feet ten inches to six feet; weight-170 to 180 pounds; build-average to well built; complexion olive, latin appearance, mediurn smooth; hair-dark brown or black; normal style, parted on left, combed back; sideburns, low ear level; eyes-possibly brown.


FBI PART 10 P 1683
said that the man appeared to be Latin descent
 

FBI PART 27 P 9104
To date 475 suspects have been developed based on appearance, as well as other features. Many of the suspects were developed because of their resemblance to the artist's composite of UNSUB. A great number of these suspects have turned out to be in their 20s or early 30s, with light or fair complexion. According to witnesses, UNSUB's age is in the mid-40s and his complexion is olive or Latin in appearance. The artist's composite clearly looks like a man in his late 20s or 30s and his complexion is difficult to determine from the black and white sketch.


FBI PART 27 P 9390
In NORJAK case,  witnesses describe subject's complexion as olive, Latin appearance, medium smooth.


FBI PART 9 P 919
ALL OFFICES ARE TO BEAR IN MIND WHEN CAPTIONED CRIME WAS ON NOVEMBER 11, 1971, UNSUB AKA. B. COOPER WAS DESCRIBED AS BEING A WHITE MALE, 5 ' 10 " TO 6 ' 0 “ , 170 POUNDS, OLIVE AND LATIN APPEARANCE.


FBI PART 27 P 9327
In view of the fact that unsub in this matter had a swarthy complexionand was tentatively identified by several witnesses as possibly having Mexican ancestry, the following lead is being set out:


FBI PART 13 P 3159
which he feels more closely depicts the nose and cheeks of the unknown subject, whom he feels was of Mexican-American descent with possibly lndian blood.


FBI PART 33 P 12115
indicated that the unsub's complexion was somewhat swarthy indicating that he might have possibly been an American Indian or Mexican American.


FBI PART 26 P 8882
believed unsub was a Mexican-American. She had a short encounter with the unsub prior to her deplaning at Seattle


FBI PART 29 P 10072
similar Mexican-type facial features 


FBI PART 11 P 2135
CHEEKS TOO FLAT, SHOULD BE MORE ROUNDED TO GIVE MEXICAN-AMERICAN APPEARANCE.


FBI PART 28 P 9541
lacks the Mexican or Indian characteristics that ____ noted in the hijacker. 


FBI PART 28 P 9559
further advised that the hijacker definitely had some Indian or Mexican blood in him. He would guess about one quarter Indian or Mexican blood. 


FBI PART 28 P 10037
FACIAL FEATURES: Should reflect a Mexican or Indian ancestry


FBI PART 11 P 2039
Race: Caucasian, believed to be of Mexican-American descent wih possibly some American Indian blood


FBI PART 34 P 13102
In view of the fact that UNSUB in this matter is possibly of American Indian descent, the following leads are being set forth pursuant to referenced communication:

[Coopy 2]

26 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper was olive, swarthy and latin in appearance, characteristics and descent, also described as possible Mexican or American-Indian

Maybe that is why Tina Mucklow can quickly eliminate suspects 45 years later. (Ex. Robert Rackstraw - 4 years ago).  Even with faded memory you can remember the ethnicity of a person.

[FLYJACK 719]

17 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Looked at the news report from 1980, the time of the money find...  the money was at high water mark. You don't need a flood to explain it being deposited. The 72 and 74 flood level is a red herring. Highest flow is Spring.

 

along the high water mark..

 

 

 

Guy leaning on stake at the find spot.

 

Washed up by high water and wave action..

 

Note debris at high water mark @ 53 seconds.. looks about 30 ft from waterline.

 

(this vid won't embed)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH5XlEwEIzE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the high tide line DURING THE FBI DIG,, at the time the money was described as found at the high tide line.. Palmer concluded it arrived within a year of it being found.

Kaye's diatom research indicates the money went into the river in spring, it does not indicate the year likely deposited by high water.

The information at the time is far better than speculation 50 years later. 

Kaye's diatom research combined with Palmer's report and information from the site indicates the money most likely arrived Spring 1979.

.

Edited August 11, 2020 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 719]

1 hour ago, Coopy said:

Maybe that is why Tina Mucklow can quickly eliminate suspects 45 years later. (Ex. Robert Rackstraw - 4 years ago).  Even with faded memory you can remember the ethnicity of a person.

The latin description is one of the biggest and most important clues that has been ignored or dismissed..

The Western Flight Path nonsense has sucked up all the oxygen in the case.

Edited August 11, 2020 by FLYJACK

[Coopy 2]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The latin description is one of the biggest and most important clues that has been ignored or dismissed..

Eliminating his suit and hair style one can really see an American Indian trait and a Hispanic ethnic leaning.

[FLYJACK 719]

11 minutes ago, Coopy said:

Eliminating his suit and hair style one can really see an American Indian trait and a Hispanic ethnic leaning.

The primary reasons the sketch was updated was to better reflect age and latin/swarthy appearance.

[dudeman17 340]

On 8/8/2020 at 12:33 PM, Andrade1812 said:

the recent FOIA documents show Gunther somehow knew about the investigation at Elsinore Paracenter

That raises a question. How would Gunther know about the Elsinore investigation? You say maybe he talked to Cossey, and Cossey might know about that, but if Cossey does know and is willing to talk about it, how come nobody else knows about it until the FOIA comes out? If 'Cooper' knows about it, might that tie him to the jump community?