DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 702]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Flyjack, have you seen this 302 where this Cooper witness says Hahneman in no way resembles Cooper? Do you know which witness this would be?

 

Maybe Gregory.

That was the artist conception.. which was said to be poor.

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

 

Maybe Gregory.

That was the artist conception.. which was said to be poor.

 

Fair enough. Gregory would be your main witness in your Hahneman argument, right? He's the one who sent these to the FBI, I believe. 

 

[FLYJACK 702]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

According to Find A Grave, there are less than 500 Dan or Daniel Cooper's listed on there if you do a search for graves of people born before 1950. That's not scientific but I don't think Dan Cooper is as popular a name as people might think it is. 

I'm a former prosecutor and current defense attorney. Most aliases are either extremely generic "John Smith" types or they are fictional characters like "Walter White" or "Michael Scott".

Media was extremely scarce during the depression. Someone who possessed this magazine would have read and re-read it countless times. Also, if you were to read the novella the author uses the name "Dan Cooper" as a gimmick. The entire story it's "Dan Cooper" punched the guy in the face or "Dan Cooper" laughed a sigh of relief. 

I think it's far more likely that if the name "Dan Cooper" WERE an alias based on a fictional character (and not based on an old friend or something) that it would be based on this character from the era of Cooper's childhood as opposed to some Belgian graphic novel that would have come out while he was an adult. It'd be like if you were to use an alias based on your favorite movie as a kid or something. People retain pop culture information far easier as children than they do as adults before life catches up to them. 

I don't think it matters that it isn't about skydiving. We know Cooper was knowledgeable about aviation. This was an aviation magazine. 

I think it's a bit interesting perhaps that the page right before the novella begins has this harrowing parachute rescue. Osmosis perhaps?

 

 

It is interesting, but I have to push back, the Cooper comic was not really for children.. It became very sophisticated, highly technical and advanced, even political. The author had many global connections in the military and aviation world. It was read by adults who were military aviators or fans...   It was not a child's comic..

Cooper wasn't an aviator when that article was published... it was not for children.

I agree that alias's are usually pulled from past experiences, but a single article 34 years prior is a real stretch,, there are many other better possibilities. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It is interesting, but I have to push back, the Cooper comic was not really for children.. It became very sophisticated, highly technical and advanced, even political. The author had many global connections in the military and aviation world. It was read by adults who were military aviators or fans...   It was not a child's comic..

Cooper wasn't an aviator when that article was published... it was not for children.

I agree that alias's are usually pulled from past experiences, but a single article 37 years prior is a real stretch,, there are many other better possibilities. 

 

Works even better. My suspect was 24 when it came out. Thats right, my Cooper was old. :-)

Edited August 27, 2022 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 702]

10 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Fair enough. Gregory would be your main witness in your Hahneman argument, right? He's the one who sent these to the FBI, I believe. 

Gregory is a very small part...  

[FLYJACK 702]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

 

Works even better. My suspect was 24 when it came out. 

So, he was 58 for the hijacking... really pushing it.

[FLYJACK 702]

Like the TBAR money, the inspiration for the alias Dan Cooper will never move beyond theories..

I have several theories, all possible, some better than others.

[olemisscub 510]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

So, he was 58 for the hijacking... really pushing it.

Yessir, it's pushing it, but we've been looking at suspects of a certain age for too long. We're forgetting that the first impression we have of Cooper that was given in real time while the dude himself was still sitting just 75 feet away was "in his 50's".

Also, we're not giving Bill Mitchell enough credit here. A 20 year old isn't a 14 year old. You're an adult at 20. When I was a sophomore in college I wouldn't have called a man in his early 40's an "old guy". There are men in their 50's, even late 50's who are in dang good shape. I'm not ruling them out if there is evidence that has led me to them. 

[FLYJACK 702]

22 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Yessir, it's pushing it, but we've been looking at suspects of a certain age for too long. We're forgetting that the first impression we have of Cooper that was given in real time while the dude himself was still sitting just 75 feet away was "in his 50's".

Also, we're not giving Bill Mitchell enough credit here. A 20 year old isn't a 14 year old. You're an adult at 20. When I was a sophomore in college I wouldn't have called a man in his early 40's an "old guy". There are men in their 50's, even late 50's who are in dang good shape. I'm not ruling them out if there is evidence that has led me to them. 

58 doesn't exclude a suspect but the further from the 45-50 sweet spot the probability drops off..

Mitchell thought he was forty..

Whiting: “Yes, I just wanted to ask you about a few specific points in the description. You know there have been so many different accounts that seem to have gotten mistranslated and re-reported. How old do you...did you think he was?”

Bill Mitchell: “So, I was twenty and I want to say forty...”

 

That is why it is called the Vortex... 

Edited August 27, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

Anyone know where this forum of Edwards is ?  A url ?   

I guess Chaucer and Edwards are working together. Chaucer is trying to move the LZ south to the Columbia, in some serious way .... looking for any excuse ... perhaps to explain the money at Tena Bar. People keep trying to connect the TBar money and the flight path!  There is nothing that requires there even is a connection. People are trying to fill this void with - something! If there is no connection then people are wasting their time.

Nobody has the faintest idea how the money got to TBar. But, there are few stipulations that must apply, however it happened. These stipulations have to do with the money itself, the condition the money was found in, rubber band chemistry, the alleged fragment field 20ft below the reported Ingram find location, the diatoms Tom found, etc etc etc. 

If Chaucer is wrong, then this is all a time consuming wild goose chase.

Edited August 27, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 702]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Anyone know where this forum of Edwards is ?  A url ?   

I guess Chaucer and Edwards are working together. Chaucer is trying to move the LZ south to the Columbia, in some serious way .... looking for any excuse ... perhaps to explain the money at Tena Bar. People keep trying to connect the TBar money and the flight path!  There is nothing that requires there even is a connection. People are trying to fill this void with - something! If there is no connection then people are wasting their time.

Nobody has the faintest idea how the money got to TBar. But, there are few stipulations that must apply, however it happened. These stipulations have to do with the money itself, the condition the money was found in, rubber band chemistry, the alleged fragment field 20ft below the reported Ingram find location, the diatoms Tom found, etc etc etc. 

If Chaucer is wrong, then this is all a time consuming wild goose chase.

This is Edwards blog, he has a few important things wrong but some good analysis.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

He and Chaucer are working together to move the FBI LZ.. reminds me of Ulis's Western Flight Path analysis that was nonsense.

Chaucer made a ridiculous video trying to discredit Rataczak... using a misinterpretation in a news report. It is classic confirmation bias. He uses that insignificant point to claim Ratazcak is unreliable and therefore all his claims must be unreliable and Cooper actually jumped further South. It is quite a feat of mental gymnastics but all a bunch of hooey..

Apparently he is trying to get something published...  what a joke. 

IMO, just let people get things wrong,, why help them and most won't listen anyway.

 

 

[georger 244]

I think I will share this for whatever its worth. I have no idea how this will affect the Chaucer-Edwards debate ?

There is one money detail that people have apparently overlooked including TK. Pieces of old bands were literally stuck to the fibers of at least one bill. This is documented by both FBI docs and by Pat Ingram personally, in a conversation I had with her years ago. Harold's brother was assigned the task of picking these 'stuck' pieces of bands off. This rubber band condition requires that the bands went through a gooey stage - the melt transition phase. That can only happen if the bands and bills are "dry" and "hot" ... a minimum 68"F for an extended period of time. The bands probably went went through this transition within the first year after the hijacking. The rubber bands are a chemical clock - literally.

TK documented rubber band decomposition but he did not document the gooey stage melt transition phase all bands can go through. It was an omission on TK's part.

Given that hot-dry conditions are required, this selects against the money being in cold water, on the bottom of the Columbia, and perhaps not at Tena Bar at all. The conditions at Tena Bar may not fulfill the conditions required by what the Ingrams reported they found and did. 

Pat described her brother-in-law having difficulty picking the stuck bands fragments off the money, and 'in several cases when he 'pulled' a piece of stuck band off it pulled pieces of money paper with them'! There is little doubt in my mind that the bands went through a gooey (melt transition) phase so complete that melted areas of bands stuck to the money paper itself. That cannot happen in a cold-wet environment.   

     

Edited August 27, 2022 by georger

[georger 244]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

This is Edwards blog, he has a few important things wrong but some good analysis.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

He and Chaucer are working together to move the FBI LZ.. reminds me of Ulis's Western Flight Path analysis that was nonsense.

Chaucer made a ridiculous video trying to discredit Rataczak... using a misinterpretation in a news report. It is classic confirmation bias. He uses that insignificant point to claim Ratazcak is unreliable and therefore all his claims must be unreliable and Cooper actually jumped further South. It is quite a feat of mental gymnastics but all a bunch of hooey..

Apparently he is trying to get something published...  what a joke. 

IMO, just let people get things wrong,, why help them and most won't listen anyway.

 

 

its like a Chaucer steam roller ... Ive noticed that.

[FLYJACK 702]

8 minutes ago, georger said:

I think I will share this for whatever its worth. I have no idea how this will affect the Chaucer-Edwards debate ?

There is one money detail that people have apparently overlooked including TK. Pieces of old bands were literally stuck to the fibers of at least one bill. This is documented by both FBI docs and by Pat Ingram personally, in a conversation I had with her years ago. Harold's brother was assigned the task of picking these 'stuck' pieces of bands off. This rubber band condition requires that the bands went through a gooey stage - the melt transition phase. That can only happen if the bands and bills are "dry" and "hot" ... a minimum 68"F for an extended period of time. The bands probably went went through this transition within the first year after the hijacking. The rubber bands are a chemical clock - literally.

TK documented rubber band decomposition but he did not document the gooey stage melt transition phase all bands can go through. It was an omission on TK's part.

Given that hot-dry conditions are required, this selects against the money being in cold water, on the bottom of the Columbia, and perhaps not at Tena Bar. The conditions at Tena Bar may not fulfill these conditions. 

Pat described her brother-in-law having difficulty picking the stuck bands fragments off the money, and 'in several cases when he 'pulled' a piece of stuck band off it pulled pieces of money paper with them'! There is little doubt in my mind that the bands went through a gooey (melt transition) phase so complete that melted areas of bands stuck to the money paper itself. That cannot happen in a cold-wet environment.   

     

My understanding is that UV and oxygen make rubber bands melty..

[georger 244]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

My understanding is that UV and oxygen make rubber bands melty..

Correct but conditions must be dry and hot, at a minimum. I was surprised TK did not include this option in his tests because it was described in the FBI docs we received. Its an import fact about the Cooper money.

The money was somewhere during the first year where this phenomenon could happen and did happen. That may not be Tena Bar. Im not exactly happy about that - Im only following the evidence that must be accounted for wherever it leads .

Edited August 27, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 702]

2 minutes ago, georger said:

Correct but conditions must be dry and hot, at a minimum. I was surprised TK did not include this option in his tests because it was described in the FBI docs we received. Its an import fact about the Cooper money.

Well, the money could have been elsewhere for some time or perhaps at the top of the sand layer which can get hot and dry in the summer. I know sandy beaches in the PNW can get too hot to walk barefoot on..

[FLYJACK 702]

Cooper handed Flo an envelope, she removed a note...

He demanded and got the note back but what about the envelope...

Tina saw the note fall on the floor..

Flo took the note and envelope to the Cockpit.. as well as the demands she wrote down.

Flo took both notes to the hijacker after he demanded them.

Edited August 28, 2022 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 340]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Well, the money could have been...  perhaps at the top of the sand layer which can get hot and dry in the summer.

But wasn't that beach a popular spot for fishermen and families? If the money was on top of the sand there wouldn't it have been found somewhat quickly?

[FLYJACK 702]

8 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

But wasn't that beach a popular spot for fishermen and families? If the money was on top of the sand there wouldn't it have been found somewhat quickly?

I was thinking at the top still in the sand not sitting on the top, though possible the top may have been exposed for some period of time. It looked like wood to Brian.. it was found just under the top.

Edited August 28, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 702]

Mucklow only saw Cooper standing briefly??

[Coopericane 44]

Anyone know which witness this report comes from?

[FLYJACK 702]

26 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

Anyone know which witness this report comes from?

I think it was Gregory.. not 100% certain.

[georger 244]

2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

But wasn't that beach a popular spot for fishermen and families? If the money was on top of the sand there wouldn't it have been found somewhat quickly?

That is a stubborn problem - thousands of people visited TBar. Not one person found or saw money except for Galen Cook's report he refuses to document. Cook claims his witness found corners of $20 bills just north of the Ingram find several months prior to the Ingram find. If you recall Cook spun this claim into a counterfeiting story! Strange you want strange you get.  

[georger 244]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Well, the money could have been elsewhere for some time or perhaps at the top of the sand layer which can get hot and dry in the summer. I know sandy beaches in the PNW can get too hot to walk barefoot on..

Yes the surface of the sand gets hot at TBar - this a is confirmed. But, it is also wet/humid which is not favorable. The clock on those bands is important. Were they new or already old?  Using the normal clock there is only so much time for those bands to break down and still be capable of entering a gooey stage ... there is no question the bands on the Ingram money went through a gooey stage somewhere, at some time, somehow. That has to be explained in the money's history probably after the first year after Cooper bailed.  

I have always assumed whatever process brought the money to TBar it also had to cover the money up from view, due to the very large number of people using that fishing bar every year until someone stumbled on the money (combination of human activity & blind luck).  

Edited August 28, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 702]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

This is Edwards blog, he has a few important things wrong but some good analysis.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

He and Chaucer are working together to move the FBI LZ.. reminds me of Ulis's Western Flight Path analysis that was nonsense.

Chaucer made a ridiculous video trying to discredit Rataczak... using a misinterpretation in a news report. It is classic confirmation bias. He uses that insignificant point to claim Ratazcak is unreliable and therefore all his claims must be unreliable and Cooper actually jumped further South. It is quite a feat of mental gymnastics but all a bunch of hooey..

Apparently he is trying to get something published...  what a joke. 

IMO, just let people get things wrong,, why help them and most won't listen anyway.

 

 

and it is gone...