DB Cooper

[ParrotheadVol 70]

10 hours ago, Slim King said:

My wife says they never check serial numbers on $20 bills. 

Banks were checking the serial numbers in 1971, but for how long? But it wasn't just banks. The general public was as well. 302's are full of people writing into the FBI requesting the list of serial numbers so that they could look for a Cooper 20. There was also at least one newspaper that was offering a cash reward for the first Cooper 20 that was found. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by ParrotheadVol

[olemisscub 510]

On 8/27/2022 at 12:18 PM, FLYJACK said:

Maybe Gregory.

That was the artist conception.. which was said to be poor.

 

Well see it for yourself. It's Michael Douglas in Falling Down. lol. Could nobody be bothered to look up from their newspapers during Hahneman's hijacking? Holy hell what a terrible sketch.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 711]

All Cooper bill serial numbers were entered into NCIC..

 

[FLYJACK 711]

Here is Palmer pointing to the money spot with a pen in 1980,, look at the shoreline,,

[georger 244]

Again the crucial phrases are: 

The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling. They took the money home where they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it. They had no idea at this time where the money had come from.

The money, at that time, was in a parcel barely held together by decomposed rubber bands, which crumbled and fell away upon being handled. Various members of the family examined and handled the money which they then took home with them that evening.

source2:  ... pieces of bands were so stuck they had to be picked off ... pieces of paper came off when the band pieces were pulled off ... 

this leaves little question that the bands had gone through a gooey stage.

Here is an SEM photo of the surface of a bill.

Edited August 29, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 711]

Were the bands still gooey or had they passed through the gooey stage.

[FLYJACK 711]

On the left,, is Mount Rainier and Lake Tipsoo in Washington State..

On the right,, is an image from a Dan Cooper comic...

The author visited the PNW in the 1960's.. including Seattle, area landmarks and the Boeing factory.

Did Cooper cross paths with the author or is it just a coincidence..

Edited August 29, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Were the bands still gooey or had they passed through the gooey stage.

... had passed through a gooey stage. Were dried out and turned to dust when touched/rubbed except for segments that were hard or crystalized and pulled bill paper with them  when pulled off with a tool. (tweezers or knife blade used by the brother-in-law).

I still urge Tom to ask around and find some of these band fragments for analysis. These are going to be bills of fragments that were outside bills. Might be some band fragments in evidence folders, or in Ingram;s evidence folders. I asked Ingram about this years ago, he said he would look, but never got back to me about that. 

If those bands went through a gooey stage that opens the door to the money not being at TBar in 1972, but in a different environment after being transported there by someone (Cooper?) which could be proof Cooper survived the jump to transport the money to some cite that offered a dry environment and UV exposure or heat.     

Edited August 29, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 711]

21 minutes ago, georger said:

... had passed through a gooey stage. Were dried out and turned to dust when touched/rubbed except for segments that were hard or crystalized and pulled bill paper with them  when pulled off with a tool. (tweezers or knife blade used by the brother-in-law).

I still urge Tom to ask around and find some of these band fragments for analysis. These are going to be bills of fragments that were outside bills. Might be some band fragments in evidence folders, or in Ingram;s evidence folders. I asked Ingram about this years ago, he said he would look, but never got back to me about that. 

If those bands went through a gooey stage that opens the door to the money not being at TBar in 1972, but in a different environment after being transported there by someone (Cooper?) which could be proof Cooper survived the jump to transport the money to some cite that offered a dry environment and UV exposure or heat.     

I recall Tom saying he looked for Rubber band evidence and found nothing..

but, how long is the gooey stage.. say the money landed there in '72 gradually went gooey and passed to the more brittle stage to be found in 1980..

What is the time frame for different environments? 

The gooey process occurs with time but is sped up by UV and heat. Too many variables to pin down.

Also, Cooper could have lost the money in the jump, it was found by somebody as lots of people were searching for it. They didn't turn it in and then it made its way into the River intentionally or unintentionally...

[JAGdb 89]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

On the left,, is Mount Rainier and Lake Tipsoo in Washington State..

On the right,, is an image from a Dan Cooper comic...

The author visited the PNW in the 1960's.. including Seattle, area landmarks and the Boeing factory.

Did Cooper cross paths with the author or is it just a coincidence..

For me, it's hard to believe it's a coincidence.  I recall a few years back, (I think on the dbcooperforum), that someone, (maybe it was you), pointed the fact out that a few of the Dan Cooper comic issue(s) were based or set in the Pacific North West.  The picture above is an absolute match, I mean if the author drew that out of his imagination, I don't know what the odds would be for it to match the real life Mount Rainier and Lake Tipsoo that exactly.  What year is that picture above from the comic from, pre or post hijacking ? 

Maybe we should start looking at all of the staff that were involved in the making of the comic ?

Edited August 30, 2022 by JAGdb

[FLYJACK 711]

23 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

For me, it's hard to believe it's a coincidence.  I recall a few years back, (I think on the dbcooperforum), that someone, (maybe it was you), pointed the fact out that a few of the Dan Cooper comic issue(s) were based or set in the Pacific North West.  The picture above is an absolute match, I mean if the author drew that out of his imagination, I don't know what the odds would be for it to match the real life Mount Rainier and Lake Tipsoo that exactly.  What year is that picture above from the comic from, pre or post hijacking ? 

Maybe we should start looking at all of the staff that were involved in the making of the comic ?

I think it is a coincidence, but it is fascinating.. Lake Tipsoo is about 40 miles off the flight path. The image in the comic was pre hijacking. However, I thought that maybe the comic's author had met Cooper somewhere while he was in the US in the 60's.. The comic's author was also in Florida pre hijacking researching a story.. His MO was to travel solo or maybe with his wife to a specific destination do research and take lots of pics to put together a story.. He even visited the Boeing plant.. He had lots of connections in military and aviation and was given special access...

Ultimately, it might just be the mother of all rabbit holes...

Edited August 30, 2022 by FLYJACK

[JAGdb 89]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I think it is a coincidence, but it is fascinating.. Lake Tipsoo is about 40 miles off the flight path. The image in the comic was pre hijacking. However, I thought that maybe the comic's author had met Cooper somewhere while he was in the US in the 60's.. The comic's author was also in Florida pre hijacking researching a story.. His MO was to travel solo or maybe with his wife to a specific destination do research and take lots of pics to put together a story.. He even visited the Boeing plant.. He had lots of connections in military and aviation and was given special access...

Ultimately, it might just be the mother of all rabbit holes...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed, and we know rabbit holes are hard to stay of in this case, there is an open door policy lol.... it would be interesting to know who he may have met with while in the PNW, Seattle and Boeing.  Did he visit military bases like McChord etc.  Anyway, squirrel this one away for a rainy day.

[JAGdb 89]

3 hours ago, georger said:

... had passed through a gooey stage. Were dried out and turned to dust when touched/rubbed except for segments that were hard or crystalized and pulled bill paper with them  when pulled off with a tool. (tweezers or knife blade used by the brother-in-law).

I still urge Tom to ask around and find some of these band fragments for analysis. These are going to be bills of fragments that were outside bills. Might be some band fragments in evidence folders, or in Ingram;s evidence folders. I asked Ingram about this years ago, he said he would look, but never got back to me about that. 

If those bands went through a gooey stage that opens the door to the money not being at TBar in 1972, but in a different environment after being transported there by someone (Cooper?) which could be proof Cooper survived the jump to transport the money to some cite that offered a dry environment and UV exposure or heat.     

When the Ingram's handed the money over to the FBI, did they even know which bill was a top bill and which was a bottom bill anymore ?  In other words, as they were trying to separate the money, did they just mix everything up and lose the order ?  The picture of the recovered money where there were 12 "piles", for lack of a better word, on the table...did they even know the original order top/bottom/middle?   

[FLYJACK 711]

12 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Indeed, and we know rabbit holes are hard to stay of in this case, there is an open door policy lol.... it would be interesting to know who he may have met with while in the PNW, Seattle and Boeing.  Did he visit military bases like McChord etc.  Anyway, squirrel this one away for a rainy day.

I can't confirm McChord but he often visited military bases on his research trips...

The only angle I see as possible would be if he met "Cooper" during his research, that could have been in the PNW or Florida.

[FLYJACK 711]

5 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

When the Ingram's handed the money over to the FBI, did they even know which bill was a top bill and which was a bottom bill anymore ?  In other words, as they were trying to separate the money, did they just mix everything up and lose the order ?  The picture of the recovered money where there were 12 "piles", for lack of a better word, on the table...did they even know the original order top/bottom/middle?   

The Ingram's may not have known as they had separated into piles.. but the FBI had the bill order from the micro and could reconstruct the packets.

[JAGdb 89]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The Ingram's may not have known as they had separated into piles.. but the FBI had the bill order from the micro and could reconstruct the packets.

good point, i forgot about that.  So every 1st and 100th bill in the master list would be a top and bottom bill.

[JAGdb 89]

20 minutes ago, Slim King said:

In I971 I was a cashier at a grocery store in SW Washington. I never checked a single $20. Tellers at banks are not required to check either. If they actually found one  I'm sure they would not have gotten a reward if it was their obligation to check. LOL... But it wasn't. What was the name of the newspaper? There were only a few in the area .. Was it the Daily News in Longview? (I've been featured there many times) I read that paper and the Oregonian for 50 yers or so. In addition, Washington Borders Canada. In 1971 there were many places to simply walk across the border unchecked or just drive through the gates. I drank in Canada on the weekends since the drinking age was only 18. I crossed a zillion times and I could have easily taken $200,000 with me each time. If you think that a bank teller dragged out a list of 10,000 numbers NOT in direct sequence and checked each and every bill against that list you have missed the point completely. I lived there and banked often with $20 bills .... I NEVER had a single one checked. Being a magician, I will not reveal the secret, but magicians alter serial numbers on bills all the time. In 1971 you could simply remove one two or even all of the numbers. Removing one letter or number a simple task. Then it would no longer match up. Like altering a serial number on a gun.

I don't personally put a lot of stock in the average bank teller finding a cooper bill.  I just don't see them manually checking a list of 10,000 bills.  Many bills could be eliminated right off the bat based on the year and series.  But let's say that had a $20 bill that was the correct year and or series, I believe the serial numbers were randomized in the ransom money correct?  So it would literally take the bank teller, or anyone else for that matter, having to cross reference a 10,000 length list right ?  Unless, I am missing some trick to doing it...

Darren had the esteemed numismatist Arthur L. Friedberg on his podcast a few years ago.  He presented a very strong opinion that if the money was spent, it would have turned up. I seem to remember him indicating that it would have been caught on the back end of the life cycle where the old money is retired and destroyed.  

While I am still skeptical, probably because I have a "slight" bias to the outcome where the hijacker survived, I have to give some weight to his opinion as the expert.

[FLYJACK 711]

31 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

I don't personally put a lot of stock in the average bank teller finding a cooper bill.  I just don't see them manually checking a list of 10,000 bills.  Many bills could be eliminated right off the bat based on the year and series.  But let's say that had a $20 bill that was the correct year and or series, I believe the serial numbers were randomized in the ransom money correct?  So it would literally take the bank teller, or anyone else for that matter, having to cross reference a 10,000 length list right ?  Unless, I am missing some trick to doing it...

Darren had the esteemed numismatist Arthur L. Friedberg on his podcast a few years ago.  He presented a very strong opinion that if the money was spent, it would have turned up. I seem to remember him indicating that it would have been caught on the back end of the life cycle where the old money is retired and destroyed.  

While I am still skeptical, probably because I have a "slight" bias to the outcome where the hijacker survived, I have to give some weight to his opinion as the expert.

The FBI list was widely distributed but it was re-ordered to be alphanumeric,, so easy to look up a bill. 

A single bill wouldn't get checked but a large number of bills passed at once may be.. then any bills that got passed would circulate for many years..

[FLYJACK 711]

Another comic connection to Seattle, Ye Old Curiosity Shop..

Dan Cooper comic on left..

Edited August 30, 2022 by FLYJACK

[JAGdb 89]

6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Another comic connection to Seattle, Ye Old Curiosity Shoppe..

Dan Cooper comic on left..

Are the real pictures from post cards ?  The comic pic even has the color of the cars matching...it looks like the author/illustrator basically copied the "post card".

[FLYJACK 711]

19 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Are the real pictures from post cards ?  The comic pic even has the color of the cars matching...it looks like the author/illustrator basically copied the "post card".

They are close, not exact but he may have grabbed postcards for angles he couldn't take photos of.. his daughter explained how he worked and he would take lots of photos, go back to his studio which I think was Switzerland and put together his stories.

There are more images of that building including inside in the comic.

Edited August 30, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 711]

24 minutes ago, Slim King said:

In Skyjack it is claimed that a small girl had several of the $20 bills and wanted the reward too. Where did she get them?

That was Brian's cousin Denise who was with Brian when he found the money, her parents wanted a reward. I think there was a riff in the family over the money find..

It was all the same find.

Brian's mother kept 4 bills but turned them in a few days later.

Edited August 30, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 711]

47 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I can find no information on the FED recording the individual serial numbers before shredding or burning. Does anyone have this information? All I found was they use a high speed machine to sort usable bills from unusable ones. They then are destroyed.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-coopers-money-arthur-l-friedberg/

[georger 244]

37 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That was Brian's cousin Denise who was with Brian when he found the money, her parents wanted a reward. I think there was a riff in the family over the money find..

It was all the same find.

Brian's mother kept 4 bills but turned them in a few days later.

almost. That was Crystal Ingram, wife of Harold's brother. Crystal and the brother-in-law were in the process of a divorce. Their daughter named Denise. 

On February 13, 1980,  Mrs. Crystal Ingram, telephonically contacted SA Ralph Himmelsbach at the Portland FBI Office to advise that ‘the story of the finding of the money by Brian Ingram was not entirely accurate’ .... the actual place was nearer the water's edge ... Denise and Brian were playing together when the money was found ... four b9ills are being held as souvenirs ... Crystal stated she would talk to Pat . . . On February 14, 1980, Mrs. Crystal Ingram appeared at the Portland FBI Office , after making an appointment earlier in the day, and has submitted four (4) more $20 bills. 

H decided to go with Harold's version ... Harold was taken to TBar where he identified a location which was staked ... about two hours later an excavation grid was laid out.  The fragment field found is closer to Crystal's location than it is to Harold's, and that is a fact! 

 

 

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

In Skyjack it is claimed that a small girl had several of the $20 bills and wanted the reward too. Where did she get them?

Is Geof Gray saying Crystal Ingram was a dwarf? 

Pat Ingram lobbied hard for a reward. even contacted a radio station several times. Crystal Ingram never asked for a reward or pursued one so far as any record I know of.

Evidently the story you cite in Skyjack, is confused baloney. 

I have no idea who or what you are citing. See my prior posts on this topic. I have posted about it many times and laid out the factual record. I cant keep posting this kind of thing .... not enough hours in a lifetime. I actually think (and fear) the factual record of these matters is going to go up in smoke ......... due to constant forum corruptions  like one finds at the Bruce Smith site <Maybe just turn this case over to the Russians and let them concoct anything Marla and Johnny Green ................. want>  I hope to God we dont loose algebra and medicine and cars too!  How are the sales of Cooper crystal balls going?  Who has that concession?  Broadway Phil ? 

Edited August 30, 2022 by georger