DB Cooper

[olemisscub 510]

2 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

The only pictures that I have seen of LD was the one where he is holding up the guitar straps and the one below which was taken sometime in the mid 90's. 

ldcooper.webpUnavailable

post that pic again. not showing up

[FLYJACK 702]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I found it, my OCR was messed up on this page, and in analyzing the redaction.. it is 12 characters,,

We have assumed it was TINA MUCKLOW (12) but it might be MRS. HANCOCK (also 12)..

If you look at the redaction in the previous paragraph, it is also 12 characters..  but the content is incompatible... that indicates they are not the same person. Since Hancock claimed elsewhere she did not get a good look at Cooper's face and the content, I lean toward this actually being MRS. HANCOCK and not Tina.. Tina was not so negative on sketch B and never expressed that she was heavily influenced by the sketch..

It isn't proof, but is worth considering. It makes more sense that this was Hancock..

This doc virtually confirms that the above was NOT Tina but was likley Hancock..

The above was an early version of sketch B in the process but here.. sketch B appears to be the best likeness possible based on recollection of "stewardesses" ______

Sketch B was revised from above date and the BEST likeness of Cooper. That means there was no major disagreement on sketch B from Tina it was from Hancock who admitted she didn't see Cooper's full-face straight on.
 

[Coopericane 44]

How many times did Alice actually interact with Cooper? I know she asked for her purse at one point, and later asked if he was taking a parachute apart... any others? Which stewardess asked if they could leave the plane?

Edited September 22, 2022 by Coopericane

[FLYJACK 702]

23 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

How many times did Alice actually interact with Cooper? I know she asked for her purse at one point, and later asked if he was taking a parachute apart... any others? Which stewardess asked if they could leave the plane?

and the money/tip before she left.. so very little

Edited September 22, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 702]

I think this is Flo, subject's hair looked "greasier" or "slicked"...  this corroborates Gregory.

Edited September 22, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

5 hours ago, Coopericane said:

How many times did Alice actually interact with Cooper? I know she asked for her purse at one point, and later asked if he was taking a parachute apart... any others? Which stewardess asked if they could leave the plane?

11/24/71 Hancock Interview:

 

Alice Hancock a stewardess aboard Northwest Airlines Flight #305 provided the following information:

On November 24, 1971, Hancock stated that the individual who hijacked Northwest Airlines Flight #305, a Boeing 727, boarded the aircraft at Portland OR, and at the time he boarded he was carrying a briefcase which measured about 12 by 18 inches, and was dark brown or black in color. She stated that the hijacker handed another stewardess (Florence Schaffner)  a ransom note demanding $200,000 dollars in cash. Hancock believes that the note was handed to Schaffner very shortly before takeoff from Portland. Hancock advised that the hijacker’s demands were communicated to the Captain of the aircraft via the aircraft’s intercom by another stewardess named Mucklow. 

Hancock stated that the note the hijacker handed to Schaffner stated the hijacker had a bomb, in a briefcase he was carrying, and that he wanted $200,000 dollars and absolutely no trickery or interference or he would explode the bomb he said he was carrying. Hancock also advised the hijacker requested four parachutes. After the hijacker stated these demands, the stewardess named Schaffner went to the cockpit of the aircraft (with the note the hijacker had written and another list of his demands she had written as the hijacker dictated his demands to her), to advise the Captain of the plane of the situation. (In the meantime another stewardess named Mucklow took a seat beside the hijacker). Stewardess Schaffner remained in the cockpit until just before landing in Seattle. Meanwhile the hijacker remained in his seat  and had another stewardess named Mucklow sit by him.      

Hancock stated the hijacker assigned the stewardess named Mucklow to get off the plane in Seattle to get the money he demanded, and then after that she was to go off the airplane again and get four parachutes that he demanded. In addition to the parachutes and the money the hijacker also requested four crew meals. Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft.

 

Hancock stated that the subject made his demands known in this order:

1)      He wanted the money brought on board first.

2)      He wanted (passengers) off the aircraft after the money was on board.

3)      He wanted parachutes and four crew meals.

4)      He wanted the plane completely refueled.

5)      He wanted maps.

She could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested.

During the flight, Hancock advises the hijacker wanted continual re-assurance that nothing was going to go wrong.  She stated that the hijacker was good natured during the flight.

After the plane landed (at Seattle) and the passengers were off-loaded, Mucklow was on the telephone updating the hijacker’s demands to the Captain of the aircraft.

 The hijacker then informed Mucklow to tell the other stewardesses and crew to remain on board. At this point Hancock states that the pilots of the aircraft wanted the stewardesses off the plane. (They tried to arrange this with the hijacker through Mucklow). Once the stewardesses were off the aircraft, Hancock states that the pilots had planned to get off the aircraft by jumping out through (a door in) the cockpit. (The hijacker however would not let Mucklow come forward).  None of this happened because the hijacker could see them and they feared that he would set off  the bomb that he had in his briefcase. Then Schaffner went to the back of the plane and asked the hijacker directly.

Edited September 23, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

This doc virtually confirms that the above was NOT Tina but was likley Hancock..

The above was an early version of sketch B in the process but here.. sketch B appears to be the best likeness possible based on recollection of "stewardesses" ______

Sketch B was revised from above date and the BEST likeness of Cooper. That means there was no major disagreement on sketch B from Tina it was from Hancock who admitted she didn't see Cooper's full-face straight on.

Disagree with your conclusion. 
 

“He for the most part was seated on her side and so that she only saw his profile.”

“…and most of the time he was whispering in her ear”

Pretty sure that’s Tina. 

 

[FLYJACK 702]

12 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Disagree with your conclusion. 
 

“He for the most part was seated on her side and so that she only saw his profile.”

“…and most of the time he was whispering in her ear”

Pretty sure that’s Tina. 

 

I know, when I first read it, I assumed slam dunk that was Tina..

But, if it was Tina we have big big problems.. Tina was the primary witness used to screen suspects and that passage would completely compromise all her testimony.. and the FBI using her as their primary witness makes the entire investigation invalid... Tina's evidence and testimony would be completely compromised. If it was Tina that might explain why sketch A was so far off.. if they relied heavily on Tina.

Also,,

Hancock had the least contact with Cooper and admitted elsewhere that she didn't see his face.. 

Tina elsewhere was not so negative on sketch B..

Tina did give detailed descriptions of Cooper's face, a contradiction.

The redacted name in the passage above also contains 12 letters which match TINA MUCKLOW and the content match Tina's testimony elsewhere.. if that is Tina then the other is not.

So, on balance, I lean toward Hancock,, and I really hope it isn't Tina because the ramifications are huge.. all her testimony and credibility would be in question as well as the FBI and the entire case for using her as the primary witness.

Edited September 23, 2022 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 151]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I know, when I first read it, I assumed slam dunk that was Tina..

But, if it was Tina we have big big problems.. Tina was the primary witness used to screen suspects and that passage would completely compromise all her testimony.. and the FBI using her as their primary witness makes the entire investigation invalid... Tina's evidence and testimony would be completely compromised. If it was Tina that might explain why sketch A was so far off.. if they relied heavily on Tina.

Also,,

Hancock had the least contact with Cooper and admitted elsewhere that she didn't see his face.. 

Tina elsewhere was not so negative on sketch B..

Tina did give detailed descriptions of Cooper's face, a contradiction.

The redacted name in the passage above also contains 12 letters which match TINA MUCKLOW and the content match Tina's testimony elsewhere.. of that is Tina then the other is not.

So, on balance, I lean toward Hancock,, and I really hope it isn't Tina because the ramifications are huge.. all her testimony and credibility would be in question as well as the FBI and the entire case for using her as the primary witness.

In Gray's book he mentions that Flo thought Tina was hiding something.  That may have to do with the case, maybe not.  It is not beyond reason that Tina started to relate to the hijacker, especially if he got her sympathies or connected with her in some way.  There just seems to be an odd cloud around her, more so than the normal speculation from YouTubers and all about the crew being in on it or it being made up.  I don't think she was in in on it though, maybe just got caught up in the moment or felt bad for the guy.

[georger 244]

3 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

In Gray's book he mentions that Flo thought Tina was hiding something.  That may have to do with the case, maybe not.  It is not beyond reason that Tina started to relate to the hijacker, especially if he got her sympathies or connected with her in some way.  There just seems to be an odd cloud around her, more so than the normal speculation from YouTubers and all about the crew being in on it or it being made up.  I don't think she was in in on it though, maybe just got caught up in the moment or felt bad for the guy.

Thats a great revelation by Gray!  Must be true.

[olemisscub 510]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

and I really hope it isn't Tina because the ramifications are huge.. all her testimony and credibility would be in question as well as the FBI and the entire case for using her as the primary witness.

Well, it's Tina unfortunately. Not only do the details (whispering, seated next to) indicate Tina but also at the end of that particular 302 they state that they still need to show it to the stew who moved to Denver (see attached). That would be Alice who moved there. Tina and Flo remained in Minny throughout 1972 and into spring 73 when they were last questioned about the sketches. We know that Tina was still in Minny in 73 because of another 302 where they mentioned her upcoming marriage to Larson. She also says she likes Comp B in it (see attached).

Having the knowledge that Alice was the one in Denver also lets you fill in the blanks on a 302 dated November 72 where Tina reiterates that she only saw side profile (see attached) There is also a March 73 interview with Tina where she likes Comp B (see attached). 

 

[CooperNWO305 151]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Well, it's Tina unfortunately. Not only do the details (whispering, seated next to) indicate Tina but also at the end of that particular 302 they state that they still need to show it to the stew who moved to Denver (see attached). That would be Alice who moved there. Tina and Flo remained in Minny throughout 1972 and into spring 73 when they were last questioned about the sketches. We know that Tina was still in Minny in 73 because of another 302 where they mentioned her upcoming marriage to Larson. She also says she likes Comp B in it (see attached).

Having the knowledge that Alice was the one in Denver also lets you fill in the blanks on a 302 dated November 72 where Tina reiterates that she only saw side profile (see attached) There is also a March 73 interview with Tina where she likes Comp B (see attached). 

 

I somehow missed these 302s saying Tina liked the B sketch. If that is her, then the believers in the A sketch might be disappointed. A couple suspects get their photos side by side with the A sketch. 

[FLYJACK 702]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I somehow missed these 302s saying Tina liked the B sketch. If that is her, then the believers in the A sketch might be disappointed. A couple suspects get their photos side by side with the A sketch. 

I think what happened was sketch B was made in a process... first Gregory and Mitchell made changes then the stews, the final one was basically agreed by all. So, the early criticism were addressed..

Sketch A should be tossed.

But if Tina did not see Cooper's full-face and she was with him the most and she was the primary FBI witness then we have a big big problem.. or the FBI does.

It tosses Tina's testimony... ironically people reject Gregory and hold up Tina as the gold standard. 

I have always believed something unique happened in this case to derail it.. it may be too much reliance on Tina and Cossey.. and yes, it looks like there is something Tina is hiding..

Edited September 24, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 702]

Digging through the files always turns up something new, missed or forgotten..

Alice says she saw Cooper without glasses...

[olemisscub 510]

It checks out. It seems to me that once the passengers left the plane, Cooper felt comfortable taking his sunglasses off for a bit because here we've got Flo basically saying that she saw Cooper put his sunglasses BACK on. I'm thinking that Cooper had his glasses off during the whole "hey pick this bag up and see how heavy it is" moment. 

 

[Coopericane 44]

And still our only description of an eye color comes from Flo, right? I assume the other witnesses didn't get close enough to him, it can be hard to notice eye color at a distance... still, a corroboration on the eye color would be nice to shut down those that still insist he could have had light-colored eyes...

Edited September 24, 2022 by Coopericane

[FLYJACK 702]

8 hours ago, Coopericane said:

And still our only description of an eye color comes from Flo, right? I assume the other witnesses didn't get close enough to him, it can be hard to notice eye color at a distance... still, a corroboration on the eye color would be nice to shut down those that still insist he could have had light-colored eyes...

Alice must have seen his eyes also.. we only have a fraction of the 302's.. she probably had some input.

FBI concluded,, "eye's dark, possibly brown" that must come from somewhere..

But Tina must have seen Cooper's face maybe eyes's too, she was the primary input on sketch A and initially insisted A was better than B against all other witnesses. Sketch A was bad.. She later agreed with sketch B.. She was also used to evaluate suspect images.. If she didn't see his face, that makes no sense..

So, Tina must be being deceitful when she said she didn't see his face,, and that means she is protecting Cooper for some reason...  and no I don't think she was involved or knew him prior.

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 702]

9 hours ago, olemisscub said:

It checks out. It seems to me that once the passengers left the plane, Cooper felt comfortable taking his sunglasses off for a bit because here we've got Flo basically saying that she saw Cooper put his sunglasses BACK on. I'm thinking that Cooper had his glasses off during the whole "hey pick this bag up and see how heavy it is" moment. 

 

Makes sense, he probably took the glasses off to check the money in detail.. Alice/Alyce said she thought the sunglasses were prescription..

[FLYJACK 702]

Video of the money...

 

[georger 244]

30 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Video of the money...

 

Any details on this ?   who what where ?

Edited September 24, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 702]

22 minutes ago, georger said:

Any details on this ?   who what where ?

Don't know but I added about 6 bills to my TBAR bill list..  close to 90 now..

great video.. anybody recognize the voices..

Edited September 24, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

35 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Don't know but I added about 6 bills to my TBAR bill list..  close to 90 now..

great video.. anybody recognize the voices..

Good that this expands your list -  congrats! anybody recognize the voices.. ? yes. Have talked to one of the voices last year. He is a motivated numismatist with a goal. I sent him a copy of the Court settlement and other info last year ... and we talked several times. Everything still pending but I wish him luck and he has promised to share anything new with the Cooper community. He could become a resource in the future. Im glad you published this video!

[FLYJACK 702]

1 minute ago, georger said:

Good that this expands your list -  congrats! anybody recognize the voices.. ? yes. Have talked to one of the voices last year. He is a motivated numismatist with a goal. I sent him a copy of the Court settlement and other info last year ... and we talked several times. Everything still pending but I wish him luck and he has promised to share anything new with the Cooper community. He could become a resource in the future. Im glad you published this video!

Cool, send him the video...

[georger 244]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cool, send him the video...

He has the video.  The person handling the bills may be Brian Ingram but Im not 100% sure. Those are new folders - not the old FBI folders.

Edited September 24, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 702]

6 minutes ago, georger said:

He has the video.  The person handling the bills may be Brian Ingram but Im not 100% sure. Those are new folders - not the old FBI folders.

From the conversation, they hadn't split up the money yet..