DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 702]

1 minute ago, georger said:

So was McChord ever contacted to supply chutes?  Do any 302s cite McChord as being the source for chutes? 

I read somewhere that McChord was contacted but due to the Thanksgiving Eve they couldn't get in touch with the right authority to obtain the chutes.. they reached out to Cossey at home and he suggested getting all of them from Issaquah.. Meanwhile they had secured the two backs from Hayden. So, Emrich only supplied the two fronts.

still don't see Emrich accidentally grabbing a dummy chute.. 

[georger 244]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I read somewhere that McChord was contacted but due to the Thanksgiving Eve they couldn't get in touch with the right authority to obtain the chutes.. they reached out to Cossey at home and he suggested getting all of them from Issaquah.. Meanwhile they had secured the two backs from Hayden. So, Emrich only supplied the two fronts.

still don't see Emrich accidentally grabbing a dummy chute.. 

According to the Dawson article, Command ordered Dawson to stand down on his chute idea, so McChord pulled out as a supplier of chutes. 

[olemisscub 510]

3 hours ago, JAGdb said:

 

What color and material was the back chute (Hayden's) that the hijacker actually used and can we trace 302s where a chute with those characteristics were rejected ?

 

 

Presumably it was white since I believe Hayden has said that the two chutes were identical. Could be wrong on that, but I believe that to be the case. So the whole notion of Cooper having a choice between "the luxury chute" and the military chute is bunk. 

 

[FLYJACK 702]

17 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

 

Presumably it was white since I believe Hayden has said that the two chutes were identical. Could be wrong on that, but I believe that to be the case. So the whole notion of Cooper having a choice between "the luxury chute" and the military chute is bunk. 

 

Yes, he was referring to the type of chute/container when he said he believed they were the same..

He also told Bruce he never looked inside at the chutes so he wouldn't have known the chute colour..

The S/N of the packing card in the chute in that 302 is 60-9707 manufactured July '60..

The chute left on the plane returned to Hayden with its card states S/N 226, manufactured Sept '57.

So, there were two back chute packing cards found on the plane and both were Hayden's chutes packed by Cossey May 21, '71..

If S/N 226 was returned to Hayden then Cooper must have used S/N 60-9707, removed the card and the FBI never figured that out.

The FBI had the packing card for the chute Cooper used, the FBI never figured it out and it doesn't match Cossey's description.

Edited October 6, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, he was referring to the type of chute/container when he said he believed they were the same..

He also told Bruce he never looked inside at the chutes so he wouldn't have known the chute colour..

The S/N of the packing card in the chute in that 302 is 60-9707 manufactured July '60..

The chute left on the plane returned to Hayden with its card states S/N 226, manufactured Sept '57.

So, there were two back chute packing cards found on the plane and both were Hayden's chutes packed by Cossey May 21, '71..

If S/N 226 was returned to Hayden then Cooper must have used S/N 60-9707 and the FBI never figured that out.

The FBI had the packing card for the chute Cooper used, the FBI never figured it out and it doesn't match Cossey's description.

Just to clarify, this is proof that Cooper did find and remove the packing card from the chute he jumped with?

[FLYJACK 702]

21 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Just to clarify, this is proof that Cooper did find and remove the packing card from the chute he jumped with?

I would think so,, there is no other explanation. Tosaw also said in his book that Cooper removed the packing card. Books aren't always 100% accurate.

It looks like during inspection of the chutes Cooper removed the card from the chute he used and put it in the chute left behind.. or possibly he left it behind and somebody in Reno put it in the chute pocket.

I would assume he checked the packing cards, compared them and chose the newer one... then placed the card back in the chute he left behind.

Fact is we have two back chute packing cards documented as being found on the plane.. both match the packing date for Hayden's two chutes.

One card was returned to Hayden with the chute,, the other had to have been the back chute Cooper used.

and the FBI never figured this out.

Edited October 6, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

18 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I would think so,, there is no other explanation. Tosaw also said in his book that Cooper removed the packing card. Books aren't always 100% accurate.

It looks like during inspection of the chutes Cooper removed the card from the chute he used and put it in the chute left behind.. or possibly he left it behind and somebody in Reno put it in the chute pocket.

I would assume he checked the packing cards, compared them and chose the newer one... then placed the card back in the chute he left behind.

Fact is we have two back chute packing cards documented as being found on the plane.. both match the packing date for Hayden's two chutes.

One card was returned to Hayden with the chute,, the other had to have been the back chute Cooper used.

and the FBI never figured this out.

Only other thing I can think of is that for whatever reason Cossey inadvertently put both packing cards in that single chute. With both packing cards having the same date on them (presumably the date on or around when he delivered these two chutes to Hayden) then maybe he just brainfarted and put them both into one chute. If they were packed at different times and the cards had different dates, then I'd say hell no to the "brainfart" theory. But since we know he did both cards at the same time, it at least raises the slight possibility that both cards were inserted together into one chute. Yes, I realize that would be strange, but that's the only alternative I can think of to what you're proposing. 

[FLYJACK 702]

33 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Only other thing I can think of is that for whatever reason Cossey inadvertently put both packing cards in that single chute. With both packing cards having the same date on them (presumably the date on or around when he delivered these two chutes to Hayden) then maybe he just brainfarted and put them both into one chute. If they were packed at different times and the cards had different dates, then I'd say hell no to the "brainfart" theory. But since we know he did both cards at the same time, it at least raises the slight possibility that both cards were inserted together into one chute. Yes, I realize that would be strange, but that's the only alternative I can think of to what you're proposing. 

but, only the 60-9707 card was found in the pocket of that chute,,, the other 226 (original May 21,1971) card ended up back in the back chute left on the plane and returned to Hayden. No indication where card #226 was actually found on the plane.

Tosaw claimed Cooper removed the cards.. no source given,, and Tina said he checked over the chutes.

Anyway, no matter the precise details... the facts remain..

There were two back chute cards that matched Hayden's two back chutes, both packed by Cossey May 21, 1971.

One card, #226 was returned to Hayden with the chute left on the plane and it was subsequently repacked twice.. the other card #60-9707 is missing its back chute and that had to be the chute Cooper used. That card description doesn't match Cossey's description.

The chute left behind is now at the WSHS museum and it likely has the #226 card in the pocket, it might have Cooper's DNA on it, though it was probably handled by up to a half dozen people after Cooper.

Edited October 7, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 50]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Only other thing I can think of is that for whatever reason Cossey inadvertently put both packing cards in that single chute. With both packing cards having the same date on them (presumably the date on or around when he delivered these two chutes to Hayden) then maybe he just brainfarted and put them both into one chute. If they were packed at different times and the cards had different dates, then I'd say hell no to the "brainfart" theory. But since we know he did both cards at the same time, it at least raises the slight possibility that both cards were inserted together into one chute. Yes, I realize that would be strange, but that's the only alternative I can think of to what you're proposing. 

Apparently, the only connection that Cossey had with the backpack parachutes was that he packed both of them on the same date.  I'm sure that he would not put both packing cards in the same parachute pocket.  He wasn't that dumb.

And Cossey packed the reserve parachute that was opened, sliced up, and stayed on the airliner. It would have a packing card with Cossey's signature.

There would not be a packing card for the missing reserve parachute if it had been cut up for use in ground training.

As FlyJack has abundantly posted, everything else that Cossey claimed about the parachutes can be ignored.

     

[olemisscub 510]

Just now, Robert99 said:

Apparently, the only connection that Cossey had with the backpack parachutes was that he packed both of them on the same date.  I'm sure that he would not put both packing cards in the same parachute pocket.  He wasn't that dumb.

 

I realize it's terribly far fetched. Just trying to come up with another possible solution than Cooper doing it himself. Because I have to wonder why he'd have taken the time to put the card from his chute into the unused chute. Aren't the packing cards somewhat difficult to get to? I admittedly know nothing about parachutes but I've heard they can be tricky to find or something to that effect. 

[FLYJACK 702]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I realize it's terribly far fetched. Just trying to come up with another possible solution than Cooper doing it himself. Because I have to wonder why he'd have taken the time to put the card from his chute into the unused chute. Aren't the packing cards somewhat difficult to get to? I admittedly know nothing about parachutes but I've heard they can be tricky to find or something to that effect. 

Extremely unlikely, but even if it were true,, it doesn't change the argument or conclusion.. that Cooper took back chute #60-9707...  

Another possibility is that somebody found the card in Reno on the plane and put it in the chute pocket, but that still doesn't change the conclusion.

Hayden's returned chute #226

Edited October 7, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

Extremely unlikely, but even if it were true,, it doesn't change the argument or conclusion.. that Cooper took back chute #60-9707...  

Hayden's returned chute #226

 

Right, so just to clarify for all time's sake: neither of these back chutes were the luxury chutes or whatever bullsh*t that Cossey was telling the Feds? Their age was different, but they were otherwise identical (except it appears Cooper's chute had a slightly smaller canopy).

[FLYJACK 702]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Right, so just to clarify for all time's sake: neither of these back chutes were the luxury chutes or whatever bullsh*t that Cossey was telling the Feds? Their age was different, but they were otherwise identical (except it appears Cooper's chute had a slightly smaller canopy).

Other way around the Pioneer left behind #226 was referred to as a "luxury type" vs his custom NB6/8 military one Cossey claimed Cooper used..

Both cards state they were Pioneer's... 

Hayden said they were the same in the context of type, not necessarily "identical".

Hayden disagreed with Cossey's description of the chutes in the media...

[FLYJACK 702]

I submitted a FOIA for the packing cards... 

I've also submitted a FOIA for Max Gunther's notes.. There is a theory I have been exploring..

[JAGdb 89]

45 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Other way around the Pioneer left behind #226 was referred to as a "luxury type" vs his custom NB6/8 military one Cossey claimed Cooper used..

Both cards state they were Pioneer's... 

Hayden said they were the same in the context of type, not necessarily "identical".

Hayden disagreed with Cossey's description of the chutes in the media...

Did the Pioneer left behind have any steerability ?  More so than what Cossey had described for the chute he said Cooper took? i.e. old military style

[FLYJACK 702]

12 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Did the Pioneer left behind have any steerability ?  More so than what Cossey had described for the chute he said Cooper took? i.e. old military style

Basically no, it was a reserve but some have said there is technically a very slight amount of steer ability if you can manipulate the rig,, I don't know anything about that.

Essentially, no steer ability or extremely little.. Cooper didn't have control over his LZ.

[FLYJACK 702]

10 minutes ago, Slim King said:

The plane flew on it's normal path V2. The V23 idea was just a Red Herring ... Nothing was ever found. Not the Bomb, not the front pack, not the back pack, not Cooper or his body, not the bag of money (Except for the planted money AGAIN not on the V23 path) not his sunglasses or shoes, no chutes or cut lines.... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ..... Over 50,000 hunters combed that area for the last 50 years (I was one of them) not to mention the extensive searches and thousands of military and civil personnel  at the time. NOTHING. Stop believing the FBI nonsense. V23 was a Red Herring.

Your argument is illogical.

[georger 244]

29 minutes ago, Slim King said:

The plane flew on it's normal path V2. The V23 idea was just a Red Herring ... Nothing was ever found. Not the Bomb, not the front pack, not the back pack, not Cooper or his body, not the bag of money (Except for the planted money AGAIN not on the V23 path) not his sunglasses or shoes, no chutes or cut lines.... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ..... Over 50,000 hunters combed that area for the last 50 years (I was one of them) not to mention the extensive searches and thousands of military and civil personnel  at the time. NOTHING. Stop believing the FBI nonsense. V23 was a Red Herring.

Hysterical nonsense!    The Moon is not made out of green cheese!

Edited October 7, 2022 by georger

[CooperNWO305 151]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I submitted a FOIA for the packing cards... 

I've also submitted a FOIA for Max Gunther's notes.. There is a theory I have been exploring..

I’ve tried to get Gunther’s notes through FOIA. Typical government response. I engaged Mark Zaid on it. I need to follow up with him. I hope you get the notes. 

[Math of Insects 98]

7 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I’ve tried to get Gunther’s notes through FOIA. Typical government response. I engaged Mark Zaid on it. I need to follow up with him. I hope you get the notes. 

A hoax perpetrated by Clara, or by him?

[FLYJACK 702]

27 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I’ve tried to get Gunther’s notes through FOIA. Typical government response. I engaged Mark Zaid on it. I need to follow up with him. I hope you get the notes. 

What was their response,, can't find it or private info?

[CooperNWO305 151]

50 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

What was their response,, can't find it or private info?

I’d have to find the letter. It claimed that all info had been released I think. I sent it one day and literally a few days later I got the response. No government agency works that fast. So I suspect no one even looked. Keep pressing. 

[JAGdb 89]

Dr. Edwards,

I just wanted to thank you for always sharing the PDF searchable FBI documents.

 

[CooperNWO305 151]

5 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

A hoax perpetrated by Clara, or by him?

Not sure what you’re asking. I don’t think Max made it up. He made up parts of the story, but I suspect he did get contacted by someone. 

[georger 244]

51 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Not sure what you’re asking. I don’t think Max made it up. He made up parts of the story, but I suspect he did get contacted by someone. 

Why Max? Was there something that hung on Max that attracted Cooper's attention. Why Max vs Chamon Smith of Milwaukee?  Maybe Max was just some guy trying to get published first ? 

When did Gunther die? Did he have any other claim to fame?  I have a hard time taking any of this seriously . . .

Edited October 8, 2022 by georger