DB Cooper

[JAGdb 89]

I don't know, for me, I just don't see any resemblance between the KK5-1 picture and the final sketch B.  I'm not disputing what has been explained about how KK5-1 was the starting point or original base line for what became sketch B.

KK5-1 reminds me of the actor Chelsie Ross, he played the veteran pitched "Eddie Harris" in the movie Major League.

Sketch B looks like a Latin/Italian dude....but, it's all somewhat subjective.

Edited October 20, 2022 by JAGdb

[FLYJACK 702]

9 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

I don't know, for me, I just don't see any resemblance between the KK5-1 picture and the final sketch B.  I'm not disputing what has been explained about how KK5-1 was the starting point or original base line for what became sketch B.

It is. They started with sketch B and incorporated witness input, tweaked the hair and mouth area etc...

I created this from sketch B.. FBI files admit sketch B was based on KK5-1 because it is.

Edited October 20, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 702]

14 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Regarding the stained fingers testimony, it doesn't specify which hand -- does that mean both hands were stained ?  

FBI files say right hand.

[JAGdb 89]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It is. They started with sketch B and incorporated witness input, tweaked the hair and mouth area etc...

I created this from sketch B.. FBI files admit sketch B was based on KK5-1 because it is.

Ok, your sketch B does seem to me to have the KK5-1 flavor with a more long or slender face and the nose/mouth structure and crease. 

[FLYJACK 702]

2 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Ok, your sketch B does seem to me to have the KK5-1 flavor with a more long or slender face and the nose/mouth structure and crease. 

They tweaked over many months with input from witnesses.

[FLYJACK 702]

5 hours ago, georger said:

Did Hancock agree with sketch B ?

Hancock.. "an excellent likeness" but suggested some changes.. This was an early iteration she was commenting on, not the final.

[JAGdb 89]

Regarding suspect James E.  Klansnic, not sure if anyone has seen his obituary.  It's a nice write up, seems like he was a pretty cool guy.  Key take away, "steel blue eyes"...also some additional pictures I had not seen before.

https://www.flintofts.com/obituaries/James-Edward-Klansnic?obId=2008525

[FLYJACK 702]

1 minute ago, JAGdb said:

Regarding suspect James E.  Klansnic, not sure if anyone has seen his obituary.  It's a nice write up, seems like he was a pretty cool guy.  Key take away, "steel blue eyes"...also some additional pictures I had not seen before.

https://www.flintofts.com/obituaries/James-Edward-Klansnic?obId=2008525

He wasn't Cooper, not even close..  "steel blue eyes" was never mentioned by Nicky B..

 

[FLYJACK 702]

1 hour ago, JAGdb said:

Ok, your sketch B does seem to me to have the KK5-1 flavor with a more long or slender face and the nose/mouth structure and crease. 

Without glasses, I made this with KK5-1 and hair and mouth changed..

Sketch B is 100% based on KK5-1 as confirmed in the FBI docs.

Sketch B based on KK5-1.. (with changes from witnesses)

Edited October 20, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 702]

Himmelsbach book...

"Page 37

(Overleaf:) The flight of the hijacked jet south from Seattle, as tracked by the FAA, was basically along flight path Victor 23. However, authorities have since come to the conclusion that the airplane was east of this track, a fact confirmed recently by the aircraft's co-pilot. "

Suggests Cooper is right handed, held case in left paid with right.

"Page 13

Cooper indicated the attache case he held in his left hand, a case similar to that which many businessmen carried aboard aircraft in Portland that Thanksgiving eve. He pushed the $20 bill toward Agent Lysne."

Edited October 20, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Hancock.. "an excellent likeness" but suggested some changes.. This was an early iteration she was commenting on, not the final.

 

Yeah, Oct 2nd 72 was when she gave those statements, so she was referring to this fella. 

[olemisscub 510]

The eyes are what is most in common with the sketches and KK5-1. Forehead shape is similar as well, but the eyes of KK5-1 are its biggest contribution. 

 

[FLYJACK 702]

Himmelsbach.. on the sketches, a compromise.

"Page 82

There always had been some problems with the artist’s rendering of Cooper we had released. It was the best that could be produced under the circumstances, but witnesses differed in their views, and at best it was a compromise. I remembered a case where the teller who was the victim of a bank robbery had said with great assurance that the robber was wearing a blue baseball cap. When we looked at the bank’s film, it was a paisley golf hat with a pork-pie brim! And she had been so sure! That was the problem we had with the composite of Cooper. In fact, we had three composites of Cooper, all based on eye-witness reports."

[olemisscub 510]

46 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Himmelsbach.. on the sketches, a compromise.

"Page 82

There always had been some problems with the artist’s rendering of Cooper we had released. It was the best that could be produced under the circumstances, but witnesses differed in their views, and at best it was a compromise. I remembered a case where the teller who was the victim of a bank robbery had said with great assurance that the robber was wearing a blue baseball cap. When we looked at the bank’s film, it was a paisley golf hat with a pork-pie brim! And she had been so sure! That was the problem we had with the composite of Cooper. In fact, we had three composites of Cooper, all based on eye-witness reports."

I'm not sure I'd label it a compromise considering that all 3 stews agreed that the final Comp B was a very close likeness. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 510]

11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

"Page 123

One of those boys, the woman said, later went into military service, and after his discharge went through several marriages. She described him as the kind of man who took advantage of women: faithless, he would live off women, use them. His language was coarse, and he was a smoker, a heavy smoker, whose fingers were stained from the curling vapors. He had slender facial features, brown hair, a dark complexion, nearly black, piercing eyes."

 

"Page 14

cigarettes, looking out the window while waiting for Northwest Airlines Flight 305 to arrive. The flight had originated on the east coast, with stops including Minneapolis and Spokane. It was one of the flights referred to by crews as a milk run. Now it was a bit late getting into Portland. Cooper checked his watch frequently, and felt increasing impatience that boarding might be delayed. Once more he went to the pocket of his white shirt and the pack of Raleigh filter tips. He removed the pack from his pocket, and with slight, jerking motions, flipped a butt far enough out of the pack to grasp it with his lips. The match reflected in the large sunglasses as he touched it to the tip of the cigarette."

 

 

Page 123 isn't talking about Cooper. Himmy is describing a random phone call he got from a woman following his retirement. 

Page 14 is clearly a literary flourish not based on any testimony that any of us are aware of. 

[FLYJACK 702]

37 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

 

Page 123 isn't talking about Cooper. Himmy is describing a random phone call he got from a woman following his retirement. 

Page 14 is clearly a literary flourish not based on any testimony that any of us are aware of. 

It is odd, I remember an interview where Himmelsbach said smoke curled through his (Cooper's) fingers like an ex-con..  same deal.. was he drawing the comparison or conflating the two..

 

[olemisscub 510]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It is odd, I remember an interview where Himmelsbach said smoke curled through his (Cooper's) fingers like an ex-con..  same deal.. was he drawing the comparison or conflating the two..

 

Ralph said a lot of sh*t. I think in later interviews he was conflating the phone call from that woman with the real Cooper. This is also probably where Ralph's inexplicable "he used terrible foul language!" garbage came from. The smoke curling around fingers is just such an imaginative statement that he probably made it up. It fits with his whole idea of who Cooper was. 

[CooperNWO305 151]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It is odd, I remember an interview where Himmelsbach said smoke curled through his (Cooper's) fingers like an ex-con..  same deal.. was he drawing the comparison or conflating the two..

 

Fly. Did you make the sketch just from the KK and pieces of the kit? In other words, it looks like you got to sketch B without using any drawing or pencils. Didn’t Roy Rose draw? 

[FLYJACK 702]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Ralph said a lot of sh*t. I think in later interviews he was conflating the phone call from that woman with the real Cooper. This is also probably where Ralph's inexplicable "he used terrible foul language!" garbage came from. The smoke curling around fingers is just such an imaginative statement that he probably made it up. It fits with his whole idea of who Cooper was. 

He hated the idea that Cooper was becoming a folk hero and pushed a counter narrative,, he must have taken the failure to solve case personally.

The smoke around the fingers was attributed to Cooper by Himmelsbach elsewhere, probably embellished based on the FBI file about stains on the right hand..

[FLYJACK 702]

28 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Fly. Did you make the sketch just from the KK and pieces of the kit? In other words, it looks like you got to sketch B without using any drawing or pencils. Didn’t Roy Rose draw? 

I took KK5-1 and added that square section for the mouth and the hair on top, not the forehead....  and the clothes..

The FBI made more tweaks but you can see how similar it is to the final sketch B.

I am working on some alternate versions,, it is amazing how changing one thing slightly changes the overall look. 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I took KK5-1 and added that square section for the mouth and the hair on top, not the forehead....  and the clothes..

The FBI made more tweaks but you can see how similar it is to the final sketch B.

I am working on some alternate versions,, it is amazing how changing one thing slightly changes the overall look. 

 

Somewhere in this mix is a genetic formula that Cooper fits into. I wish we had more definite better info. The one thing Cooper cannot escape is being 'who' he was!

Edited October 20, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 702]

Himmelsbach...  so, where did he get this from?

"Himmelsbach thinks other clues to Cooper being an ex-convict were the 'atrocious foul language' he used in talking to a stewardess and the way he smoked his cigarettes. Cooper was a heavy smoker and was indifferent to the fact that the smoke curled through his fingers and left nicotine stains, a trait Himmelsbach said is common among prison inmates."

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/11/22/Folk-hero-to-some-sleazy-rotten-crook-to-others/7021533019600/

[FLYJACK 702]

FBI closing, not closing the Cooper case..

If you listen to the words, the case isn't closed.. they have just given up unless something gets presented to them...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56f3ijuanTQ

[JAGdb 89]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Himmelsbach...  so, where did he get this from?

"Himmelsbach thinks other clues to Cooper being an ex-convict were the 'atrocious foul language' he used in talking to a stewardess and the way he smoked his cigarettes. Cooper was a heavy smoker and was indifferent to the fact that the smoke curled through his fingers and left nicotine stains, a trait Himmelsbach said is common among prison inmates."

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/11/22/Folk-hero-to-some-sleazy-rotten-crook-to-others/7021533019600/

None of the eye witnesses, primarily the stewardesses, have ever corroborated or indicated the foul language that RH is asserting.  Other than some statements that at times the hijacker was suspicious and showing signs of frustration due to the time it was taking to secure the chutes, money and refuel the air plane, they seem to have testified to his generally polite or courteous nature.  I guess he also showed some irritation over the whole knapsack vs bank bag debacle as well.

My opinion is that RH was trying to play to the psychology of the hijacker to bait him into making a mistake with making public statements that he was a rotten and foul criminal who didn't know what he was doing and was probably dead.

Or...I guess there is always the possibility that they aren't sharing everything that was said or done on the plane. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by JAGdb

[georger 244]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Himmelsbach...  so, where did he get this from?

"Himmelsbach thinks other clues to Cooper being an ex-convict were the 'atrocious foul language' he used in talking to a stewardess and the way he smoked his cigarettes. Cooper was a heavy smoker and was indifferent to the fact that the smoke curled through his fingers and left nicotine stains, a trait Himmelsbach said is common among prison inmates."

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/11/22/Folk-hero-to-some-sleazy-rotten-crook-to-others/7021533019600/

How was the Portland office organised and who was in charge of whom, and what, etc. How did the Portland office fit in the system of other FBI offices in the State of Washington. Where did Himmelsbach fit in that system vs-a-vis the Cooper case? What were H's biases and why ? (his background is key)

https://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/ralph-himmelsbach-spent-the-last-9-years-of-his-fbi-career-on-the-1971-d-b-cooper-hijacking-and-then-put-it-squarely-behind-him-at-least-until-someone-else-brought-it-up/

Edited October 21, 2022 by georger