DB Cooper

[georger 244]

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the (missing) fourteen minutes

interesting interpretation by Dr. Edwards.

R99's reply today:

Chaucer, please read carefully.

The NWA 305 situation was NOT a "no radio" situation.  They were apparently not able to raise one station on one frequency.  They would certainly not keep trying for 14 minutes.  They would go back to the previous controller and he would get the matter straightened out fast.

For the record, the FAA does have established procedures for when an aircraft and controllers completely lose the ability to communicate.  But that was not the actual case here.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by georger

[Robert99 50]

49 minutes ago, georger said:

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the (missing) fourteen minutes

interesting interpretation by Dr. Edwards.

R99's reply today:

Chaucer, please read carefully.

The NWA 305 situation was NOT a "no radio" situation.  They were apparently not able to raise one station on one frequency.  They would certainly not keep trying for 14 minutes.  They would go back to the previous controller and he would get the matter straightened out fast.

For the record, the FAA does have established procedures for when an aircraft and controllers completely lose the ability to communicate.  But that was not the actual case here.

 

Georger, I don't know what point, if any, you are getting at here.  But here are some simple facts.

The MCA (Minimum Communications Altitude) for the Seattle to Portland segment of V-23 is 10,000 feet Above Sea Level and that is the altitude the airliner was trying to maintain.  This means that the navigational aids defining V-23 and the communications with the appropriate controllers could be received at 10,000 feet ASL or higher along that segment. 

There is in fact an FAA procedure for handoffs between controllers.  The transferring controller contacts the receiving controller by telephone (see the Oakland ATC radio transcripts for controllers doing this) and the two controllers discuss the handoff.  When the receiving controller states that he sees the transponder return for the aircraft in question, and the transferring controller agrees with him, then they can make the handoff.

The transferring controller tells the airliner to contact Seattle Center (in this case) on a given frequency.  The airliner switches to that frequency and tells the receiving controller its identity and altitude.  The receiving controller tells the airliner to "ident" which means to push the "ident" button on its transponder.  When the receiving controller sees the transponder's response he will say something like "radar contact" and may make additional comments.  At this point, the transferring controller will consider the handoff completed if he has stayed on the telephone which is likely.

In the matter of NWA 305, the transferring and receiving controllers would have been in telephone contact with each other and the receiving controller would know which transponder represented the aircraft that he expected to contact him.  But the transferring controller apparently gave the airliner the wrong frequency.  Nevertheless, if the receiving controller does not hear from the airliner in another minute or two he is going to be back in touch with the transferring controller and telling him that the airliner has not contacted him.  And if the airliner cannot contact anyone on the new frequency it will also be back in touch with the transferring controller in a couple of minutes.

In all likelihood, the wrong frequency situation would have been cleared up within two or three minutes.  Certainly not 14 minutes.

Georger, you need to read the last paragraph of Dr. Edwards' post that you cited.  Dr. Edwards was apparently referring to some ARINC teletype transcripts that were "missing" from the transcripts made available to the WSHM and which Chaucer claims or denies, I'm not sure which at this point, that Larry Carr told him that he had seen and expected them to be released soon.    

[georger 244]

35 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, I don't know what point, if any, you are getting at here.  But here are some simple facts.

The MCA (Minimum Communications Altitude) for the Seattle to Portland segment of V-23 is 10,000 feet Above Sea Level and that is the altitude the airliner was trying to maintain.  This means that the navigational aids defining V-23 and the communications with the appropriate controllers could be received at 10,000 feet ASL or higher along that segment. 

There is in fact an FAA procedure for handoffs between controllers.  The transferring controller contacts the receiving controller by telephone (see the Oakland ATC radio transcripts for controllers doing this) and the two controllers discuss the handoff.  When the receiving controller states that he sees the transponder return for the aircraft in question, and the transferring controller agrees with him, then they can make the handoff.

The transferring controller tells the airliner to contact Seattle Center (in this case) on a given frequency.  The airliner switches to that frequency and tells the receiving controller its identity and altitude.  The receiving controller tells the airliner to "ident" which means to push the "ident" button on its transponder.  When the receiving controller sees the transponder's response he will say something like "radar contact" and may make additional comments.  At this point, the transferring controller will consider the handoff completed if he has stayed on the telephone which is likely.

In the matter of NWA 305, the transferring and receiving controllers would have been in telephone contact with each other and the receiving controller would know which transponder represented the aircraft that he expected to contact him.  But the transferring controller apparently gave the airliner the wrong frequency.  Nevertheless, if the receiving controller does not hear from the airliner in another minute or two he is going to be back in touch with the transferring controller and telling him that the airliner has not contacted him.  And if the airliner cannot contact anyone on the new frequency it will also be back in touch with the transferring controller in a couple of minutes.

In all likelihood, the wrong frequency situation would have been cleared up within two or three minutes.  Certainly not 14 minutes.

Georger, you need to read the last paragraph of Dr. Edwards' post that you cited.  Dr. Edwards was apparently referring to some ARINC teletype transcripts that were "missing" from the transcripts made available to the WSHM and which Chaucer claims or denies, I'm not sure which at this point, that Larry Carr told him that he had seen and expected them to be released soon.    

well done - concise - good discussion points! Congrats!  

[FLYJACK 702]

Got an official response, the FBI has nothing relating to Max Gunther.

[CooperNWO305 151]

12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Got an official response, the FBI has nothing relating to Max Gunther.

I got one too, days after I submitted my request, and I can tell you the US government does not move that fast, even for FOIAs.  They are not looking hard for anything we request.  Maybe there is Gunther info, maybe there isn't.  It could be there and not indexed, or they could have gotten it and just not put it in the file.  Maybe he didn't send anything (which I doubt).  My guess is that the FBI still does not have all the files indexed and easily available, just like many of us in this case, to include myself.  Organization takes a lot of time.  It took a lawsuit from Mark Zaid to get any movement. Very little in terms of FOIA has come back to people on this case.

[FLYJACK 702]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I got one too, days after I submitted my request, and I can tell you the US government does not move that fast, even for FOIAs.  They are not looking hard for anything we request.  Maybe there is Gunther info, maybe there isn't.  It could be there and not indexed, or they could have gotten it and just not put it in the file.  Maybe he didn't send anything (which I doubt).  My guess is that the FBI still does not have all the files indexed and easily available, just like many of us in this case, to include myself.  Organization takes a lot of time.  It took a lawsuit from Mark Zaid to get any movement. Very little in terms of FOIA has come back to people on this case.

Did you use his middle name in the FOIA??

I used "Max Gunther" but the response had "Max David Gunther".. so how would they know his middle name was David,, either they got it from another FOIA or they found his full name somewhere in their files.

I got an initial email saying nothing found but I can opt to have a more extensive search, so I did.. I just received an "official" letter saying nothing found.

Edited November 2, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 702]

Jo weber claimed to have talked to Gunther about the book,, Jo did have a reputation and skill at contacting and talking to people.. this is probably true.

A summary of her posts about the book.. this gets really sketchy as she is unreliable.. and tried to infer Duane was the one who contacted Gunther and his ex was Clara.. 

 

 

Gunther's book was the first she read and she contacted the FBI by page 13.

She had many calls and letters with Max Gunther.

She claims Gunther had 6 - 45 minute calls with “Clara”, he changed many details.

Clara was drunk during the calls.

Only the lines and words in quotes are words from Clara.

Clara said Cooper looked like Ben Gazzara.

Max wrote the mostly fictional book because the FBI did not take his reported contact seriously.

Max admitted the book is 99% fiction. Jo said 97% and 98% fiction.

Jo claims to have a copy of Gunther’s book marked with the statements Clara made and marked during a call with Gunther.

Max made up Clara’s past.

[CooperNWO305 151]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Jo weber claimed to have talked to Gunther about the book,, Jo did have a reputation and skill at contacting and talking to people.. this is probably true.

A summary of her posts about the book.. this gets really sketchy as she is unreliable.. and tried to infer Duane was the one who contacted Gunther and his ex was Clara.. 

 

 

Gunther's book was the first she read and she contacted the FBI by page 13.

She had many calls and letters with Max Gunther.

She claims Gunther had 6 - 45 minute calls with “Clara”, he changed many details.

Clara was drunk during the calls.

Only the lines and words in quotes are words from Clara.

Clara said Cooper looked like Ben Gazzara.

Max wrote the mostly fictional book because the FBI did not take his reported contact seriously.

Max admitted the book is 99% fiction. Jo said 97% and 98% fiction.

Jo claims to have a copy of Gunther’s book marked with the statements Clara made and marked during a call with Gunther.

Max made up Clara’s past.

Yea, it came back as Max David Gunther. I think I just put in Max Gunther.  What did you do to get a more extensive search?  I offered to pay more $, but it ended up being free. I've since appealed, but I don't know if that means just a more extensive search.  Gunther wrote the book in 1985.  The FBI had to have talked about it, but there is no guarantee that those conversations are cataloged in their files.  We just don't know what the FBI talked about.  The 302s are always just summaries.

I talked to Jo a few times, and I am not convinced she even talked to Gunther. Someone might have been fooling her.  She got real vague when I asked her for her notes.  Gunther may have talked to her just for fun, but things just did not add up.  I asked her for the Christmas cards he sent and she got quiet.  She claims Gunther tracked Clara to California, but there is no other reference to that anywhere.  A lot does not add up with her story, and the Gunther family is not talking.

As for FOIA's.  I've been on the receiving end of a few requests from the public through the years.  I'm not FBI, but in my organization there would be a liaison for FOIAs and congressional requests, etc. Here is the issue. That person would not be knowledgeable about the content (just like I doubt the FBI FOIA person knows much about DB Cooper).  So if I got a request for information, it would be on me to provide the information I had.  I would also have to do this quickly.  If I had spent many years in the job, I'd know where all the files were, and where the information was. But if I was new, I might only know a little bit.  So, in summary, we are asking for details on the DB Cooper case, but it is not Larry Carr who is going searching in the files, it is probably someone who does not know where everything is or does not have background knowledge, or does not have the time or motivation to get everything.  That is what we are dealing with on these FBI Vault releases.  I'm going to speculate here, but I imagine there is some lower level government employee who has been told to find 500 pages a month, and then is told to redact those files, and then publish.  I'm also going to say that I think they are abiding by the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law.  They are releasing 300-500 pages of files a month like they've been told, but are under no obligation to release the good files, hence us getting month after month of duplicates or pages upon pages of them investigating some suspect from Kansas City who we know is not related to the case.

I trust most of the people in the government, I don't trust all the politicians, and I certainly don't trust the system.

[JAGdb 89]

15 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Jo weber claimed to have talked to Gunther about the book,, Jo did have a reputation and skill at contacting and talking to people.. this is probably true.

A summary of her posts about the book.. this gets really sketchy as she is unreliable.. and tried to infer Duane was the one who contacted Gunther and his ex was Clara.. 

 

Weber dies March 1995 and allegedly confesses...

Gunther dies June 1998...

So I guess she had a 3 year window to process the confession, study the hijacking, read Gunther's book and make contact with him....I suppose it's possible based on her reputation, I'm still a little skeptical.  Would be nice if there was some proof of those conversations like the Christmas card that Dr. Edwards just referenced.

In the HBO special, I believe there was that guy who was Joe's friend/care taker/assistant, did he inherit or does he have access to any of Joe's "research" ? 

[FLYJACK 702]

That is odd about the name... adding Gunther's middle name means they have something on him..

As for Jo, she is unreliable..

She contacted me years ago and tried to convince me Duane was Cooper, she was very manipulative but when I rejected Duane she started lying about me to discredit me..

She is like the Gunther book, mostly fiction.. but what part is true?

[CooperNWO305 151]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

That is odd about the name... adding Gunther's middle name means they have something on him..

As for Jo, she is unreliable..

She contacted me years ago and tried to convince me Duane was Cooper, she was very manipulative but when I rejected Duane she started lying about me to discredit me..

She is like the Gunther book, mostly fiction.. but what part is true?

It would be interesting to know who the FOIA rep is who is getting the files.  I've sensed that they follow the boards to an extent, because things we talk about have shown up in the file dumps right around the time we have talked about them.

We do know for sure that Himmelsbach knew or talked to Gunther.  Now that could have been after Himmelsbach retired, so that may have not made it to the files.  

[FLYJACK 702]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

It would be interesting to know who the FOIA rep is who is getting the files.  I've sensed that they follow the boards to an extent, because things we talk about have shown up in the file dumps right around the time we have talked about them.

We do know for sure that Himmelsbach knew or talked to Gunther.  Now that could have been after Himmelsbach retired, so that may have not made it to the files.  

I noted Himmelsbach in my request..

I've also noticed that sometimes we discuss things that soon pop up in the files.. like they are toying with us..  

Well they won't win....

[georger 244]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That is odd about the name... adding Gunther's middle name means they have something on him..

As for Jo, she is unreliable..

She contacted me years ago and tried to convince me Duane was Cooper, she was very manipulative but when I rejected Duane she started lying about me to discredit me..

She is like the Gunther book, mostly fiction.. but what part is true?

Jo Weber was a parasite on the Cooper case. Simple. Nothing she said or did was reliable.

Edited November 2, 2022 by georger

[Robert99 50]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Jo Weber was a parasite on the Cooper case. Simple. Nothing she said or did was reliable.

Georger, you finally got something right.  Congratulations.

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, you finally got something right.  Congratulations.

Why do you care!? You have some vested interest in airport lounge lizards in the Cooper case? That's strange! 

[Andrade1812 51]

Eric Ullis has a press conference scheduled next week, are we going to get a new suspect?

[olemisscub 510]

41 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

Eric Ullis has a press conference scheduled next week, are we going to get a new suspect?

He may name his suspect at CooperCon, but I expect the press conference will just be a teaser to get more folks to come to CooperCon, which I'm all in favor of. 

[Coopericane 44]

Are Eric and Nicky both homing in on the same person now? They both seem to have new POIs that they are very confident in. Can't tell for sure from the little information I have if they are the same though. I thought I heard something about them collaborating so that may be where my confusion stems from.

[Nicholas Broughton 69]

15 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

Are Eric and Nicky both homing in on the same person now? They both seem to have new POIs that they are very confident in. Can't tell for sure from the little information I have if they are the same though. I thought I heard something about them collaborating so that may be where my confusion stems from.

Me and EU have completely different suspects. I did assist Eric early on by providing him with a contact of an individual that worked at the research division of rem-cru @ Robinson in Pitt where he is convinced cooper worked. My research pointed away from the research division being the sourced for the Ti-Antimony (TiSb) as I’ve come to better understand the history of titanium and it’s alloys… so he went one direction with his investigation (Rem-Cru Research Div) and I went another. 

[georger 244]

33 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Me and EU have completely different suspects. I did assist Eric early on by providing him with a contact of an individual that worked at the research division of rem-cru @ Robinson in Pitt where he is convinced cooper worked. My research pointed away from the research division being the sourced for the Ti-Antimony (TiSb) as I’ve come to better understand the history of titanium and it’s alloys… so he went one direction with his investigation (Rem-Cru Research Div) and I went another. 

EU and I .... not me and EU.

[FLYJACK 702]

Probably to plug CooperCon..

But, there are three different RemCru related suspects now..

[ParrotheadVol 70]

22 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

She contacted me years ago and tried to convince me Duane was Cooper, she was very manipulative but when I rejected Duane she started lying about me to discredit me..

I remember that...Bulljax right?

[ParrotheadVol 70]

22 hours ago, JAGdb said:

In the HBO special, I believe there was that guy who was Joe's friend/care taker/assistant, did he inherit or does he have access to any of Joe's "research" ? 

I'm sure he does. You may recall, he did two episodes of Darren's podcast a while back. He's pretty much taken over promoting Duane as Cooper, though other than the podcast, he doesn't really do much promoting. Despite that, he's a pretty sharp guy. He used to be a regular here under the moniker of SafecrackingPLF, but hasn't participated in years.

Edited November 3, 2022 by ParrotheadVol

[olemisscub 510]

1 minute ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I'm sure he does. You may recall, he did two episodes of Darren's podcast a while back. He's pretty much taken over promoting Duane as Cooper, though other than the podcast, he doesn't really do much promoting. Despite that, he's a pretty sharp guy. He used to be a regular here under the moniker of SafecrackingPLF, but hasn't participated in years.

Tim Collins is the name. Yes, very sharp guy. Although I believe in a follow-up episode with Darren he said that there were several things that he was supposed to inherit from Jo that he never received. 

[JAGdb 89]

18 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I'm sure he does. You may recall, he did two episodes of Darren's podcast a while back. He's pretty much taken over promoting Duane as Cooper, though other than the podcast, he doesn't really do much promoting. Despite that, he's a pretty sharp guy. He used to be a regular here under the moniker of SafecrackingPLF, but hasn't participated in years.

that's right, at the time of the post I had forgotten about the podcasts he had done, thx !