DB Cooper

[Nicholas Broughton 69]

3 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Funny! Early wife though. Divorced by the 1940s. 

That’s correct. Milton left her in the forties for their daughters 18 year old babysitter. 

[Nicholas Broughton 69]

Newly found photos of N467US from a new article that was published today. 

[Nicholas Broughton 69]

[olemisscub 512]

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

Shortly thereafter Hoover was found dead of an apparent heart attack yet no autopsy was ever given. Frank Church's Congressional investigation found this heart attack gun a few years later. Herbert was at the height of his corruption and was working hand in hand with Ralph P. Himmelsbach !!!!!

 

[FLYJACK 716]

Tom Kaye's 2022 CooperCon presentation.. sound is low, headphones help.

 

 

[dudeman17 340]

13 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

...the guitar... 
 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/10/16/entertainment/bachman-guitar-found-trnd/index.html

No shit? That's really cool, Flyjack.

I read that article and spent the next hour(?) on youtube checking out old Guess Who videos (and a couple BTO ones).

[Math of Insects 98]

Ugh. I keep wanting my mind to be changed and it all just keeps seeming like "fun with microscopes." That "experiment" with the 20s? Come on, man. No one has ever claimed the individual packets each floated independently and then magically collected in the original order in that corner of Tena Bar. At the very least band together something of the same mass and density. Send it within a burlap sack or parachute wrapping.

The fact that they are 20's is the least significant part of all of it. What was the point of that? The paper doesn't know what's written on it. 

Am I the only one who thought it was funny that the kid claimed there was only the card left and not the money? Right, kid. Sure. 

And while you were there you couldn't use those waterlogged bills to check the diatom profiles on?

IMO those 20's would be better used in the future to engage outside (impartial, disinterested) construction of a series of more significant and scientifically sound experiments. 


 

[FLYJACK 716]

Dr Edwards on podcast.. listening at 1.5x speed, going through the basics so far..

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 245]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Tom Kaye's 2022 CooperCon presentation.. sound is low, headphones help.

 

 

Tom does a good job covering a very broad complicated history. I dont know that other people in my universe could do this, as easily. Tom is definitely the high lite in the Cooper case. I never expected that! Kudos to Tom Kaye. Tom has accompl9ished a lot with very meager resources. With humor I say: this has gone way beyond the original six months allotted!

The comparison of the Cooper tie with the Boeing employee tie is interesting. Is the Cooper tie a tie actually worn at a work site or simply a tie somebody pulled out of a dumpster at an industrial site ?

Tom says nothing about where all these particles were found on the tie: spread across the whole tie, in one confined area, in the knot area only, front of the tie only, particles found on the back of the tie  ???  The difference is an open exposed tie vs a lab coat covered tie, vs a tie found in an industrial dumpster where the whole tie gets exposed?

Tom needs to share his McCrone data with industrial-occupational health researchers/chemists - people who routinely identify and deal with classes of industrial particles and contaminants needing to identify sources by occupational groups. This is why I brought up the Dictionary of Occupational Titles years ago and the people who deal with occupational disease (by classes) using large lists of particles and substances grouped by industrial classes. Tom may be consulting with the wrong people waiting on someone to send him a breakthrough, which may never happen!

Tom still insists that his diatom data says the Tina Bar money was "buried in the Spring".  All the data says is the money "was exposed" to diatoms starting in some Spring - year uinknown.

Tim is still clinging to his old data about the rubber bands. Tom never apparently talked to Pat Ingram about the bands. So that data is probably gone forever.

I agree with Tom. There is something wrong with Palmer's identification of the strata at Tina Bar. In fact, I go even further and say Palmer failed to give the right interpretation  for the strata he found. Specifically Palmer failed to identify the significance of the cross bedded layer he found directly below the bundles of money found above it. And it appears Tom hasn't seen the issue either, yet ... if ever. Cross bedded layers represent 'time'. The clock on the Cooper money at TBar runs from Nov 1971-Feb 1980, which means the cross bedded layer directly below the money represents what slice of time?  Is that cross bedded layer above dredging layer or part of it ? 

Edited November 24, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 716]

On 1/16/2020 at 6:56 AM, FLYJACK said:

The tie particle distribution pattern has been completely overlooked..

Like blood spatter patterns it tells us something about how the particles were deposited on the tie.

Cooper tie under UV above compared to a vintage era tie. The vintage tie particle pattern is completely random. Cooper's tie has many horizontal lines (as worn) of dense particle distributions.

How do you get those? Looks like about 6 lines..

An edged object is repeatedly contacting the tie in a sideways motion. I can't imagine how that happens while wearing the tie. There are similar marks on the rear piece of the tie.

It seems unlikely that a particle rich object was repeatedly wiped across the tie at different heights while being worn, unless the object was heavy and repeatedly carried with both arms beneath and a sharp horizontal edge resting on the tie. However, some of the lines seem to be too low.

 

It looks like the particles were deposited while the tie was not being worn. 

 

What are the possibilities..

The tie was used to wipe the particle rich object(s).

The particles were deposited during storage.

 

Expand the image, particle lines clearly visible..

I posted this a while back.. speculating on the patterns..

The bottom one is the Boeing tie, particle distribution (UV) is fairly even..

The Cooper tie above is not. There is an underlying even distribution with an overlay of what looks like contact marks across the tie or perhaps the tie was laid on something.. IMO, it looks like some of those concentrated particle distribution marks may have been deposited when the tie was not being worn.

Edited November 24, 2022 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 152]

I enjoy Tom’s presentations. They always make me think. He showed a pic of massive flooding at the Fazio’s place near Tena Bar. He also showed a pic of where the money had moved south from where he put it in a creek. I’m not totally convinced that the money didn’t wash down to the Columbia or that the flooding didn’t have anything to do with it. 
 

Another sort of related point came from a chat with two locals who told me that the rivers there can sometimes act like tidal rivers, and that the back flow at high tide can be significant, possibly moving the Tena Bar $ upstream or moving it around the upstream tributaries. 
 

He made a point of something to do with the parachute shroud lines as well, during an offline chat. I did not totally grasp what he meant, but he seemed to think the way Cooper cut the para cord one line at a time was interesting. 

[georger 245]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I posted this a while back.. speculating on the patterns..

The bottom one is the Boeing tie, particle distribution (UV) is fairly even..

The Cooper tie above is not. There is an underlying even distribution with an overlay of what looks like contact marks across the tie or perhaps the tie was laid on something.. IMO, it looks like some of those concentrated particle distribution marks may have been deposited when the tie was not being worn.

I agree, distribution of the particles must be addressed. The Cooper tie doesnt appear to have been protected by a lab coat. Likewise the Boeing tie.

I increased gamma and sharpened your photo in Photoshop which results in particles being sharper with greater contrast against the tie. Hope my photo posts ...  and it did.

Edited November 25, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 716]

49 minutes ago, georger said:

I agree, distribution of the particles must be addressed. The Cooper tie doesnt appear to have been protected by a lab coat. Likewise the Boeing tie.

I increased gamma and sharpened your photo in Photoshop which results in particles being sharper with greater contrast against the tie. Hope my photo posts ...  and it did.

Two points..

The particle pattern on Cooper's tie isn't uniform and random vs the Boeing tie, there is a pattern..

and there are particles on the shorter back piece...

These suggest many of the particles were not obtained while it was worn.

 

[Robert99 50]

4 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I enjoy Tom’s presentations. They always make me think. He showed a pic of massive flooding at the Fazio’s place near Tena Bar. He also showed a pic of where the money had moved south from where he put it in a creek. I’m not totally convinced that the money didn’t wash down to the Columbia or that the flooding didn’t have anything to do with it. 
 

Another sort of related point came from a chat with two locals who told me that the rivers there can sometimes act like tidal rivers, and that the back flow at high tide can be significant, possibly moving the Tena Bar $ upstream or moving it around the upstream tributaries. 
 

He made a point of something to do with the parachute shroud lines as well, during an offline chat. I did not totally grasp what he meant, but he seemed to think the way Cooper cut the para cord one line at a time was interesting. 

I am going from memory on this but the nominal Columbia River water surface at Tena Bar is only about 5 feet above sea level and the Pacific Ocean is about 95 river miles away.

I have seen information on maps related to Tena Bar that the nominal tidal effect is only about 1 to 2 feet.  At higher river levels, such as the spring runoff, the tidal effect would be much less and probably of no significance.

[georger 245]

4 hours ago, Robert99 said:

I am going from memory on this but the nominal Columbia River water surface at Tena Bar is only about 5 feet above sea level and the Pacific Ocean is about 95 river miles away.

I have seen information on maps related to Tena Bar that the nominal tidal effect is only about 1 to 2 feet.  At higher river levels, such as the spring runoff, the tidal effect would be much less and probably of no significance.

agree - very old news covered years ago. Recall  it was Galen Cook who argued that reverse tides could have brought money from the Lewis to Tina Bar. Unlikely if not impossible for a host of reasons.  

Edited November 25, 2022 by georger

[Eight Raleighs 12]

On 11/22/2022 at 2:58 PM, olemisscub said:

Yeah, this dude is the poster child for having a light complexion. No dark features or olive skin whatsover.  

 

 

Do you find it bothersome that Milton appears to be right-handed?

[FLYJACK 716]

3 hours ago, georger said:

agree - very old news covered years ago. Recall  it was Galen Cook who argued that reverse tides could have brought money from the Lewis to Tina Bar. Unlikely if not impossible for a host of reasons.  

I brought it up when I found a report that the flow can reverse up to Sauvie Island and it was mentioned as a possibility by an FBI agent..  but the problem is the money sinks and the reversal cycle time and speed is too short..

There was clamshell dredging from the mouth of the Lewis to the mouth of the Columbia and spoils were dumped upstream above TBAR,,

 

[CooperNWO305 152]

2 hours ago, Eight Raleighs said:

Do you find it bothersome that Milton appears to be right-handed?

The question was not directed at me, but I’ll chime in. I don’t find it bothersome. There is nothing to indicate he was left handed. If it comes out that he is, ok. But for now the information actually points more to right handed. A much higher percentage of men are right handed. He had his dominant hand in the briefcase. I’ve read about tobacco stains on his right hand (might have been left).  I would not rule out a lefty, but I would not automatically rule one in. This isn’t science, but as a righty I lean towards the right side of planes and boats etc. Fly can comment, but he had some thoughts on how Cooper carried the briefcase into the lavatory. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 716]

27 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

The question was not directed at me, but I’ll chime in. I don’t find it bothersome. There is nothing to indicate he was left handed. If it comes out that he is, ok. But for now the information actually points more to right handed. A much higher percentage of men are right handed. He had his dominant hand in the briefcase. I’ve read about tobacco stains on his right hand (might have been left).  I would not rule out a lefty, but I would not automatically rule one in. This isn’t science, but as a righty I lean towards the right side of planes and boats etc. Fly can comment, but he had some thoughts on how Cooper carried the briefcase into the lavatory. 

I am not sure what the context is for the comment,, the evidence strongly suggests Cooper was right handed..

unless the Vordahl crew think he was a lefty.. I don't know.

Ulis spent years claiming Cooper was left handed because Sheridan was..

Edited November 25, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Eight Raleighs 12]

29 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I am not sure what the context is for the comment,, the evidence strongly suggests Cooper was right handed..

unless the Vordahl crew think he was a lefty.. I don't know.

Ulis spent years claiming Cooper was left handed because Sheridan was..

OleMissCub has speculated that Cooper was left-handed, including on Darren S.’s podcast.

[FLYJACK 716]

14 minutes ago, Eight Raleighs said:

OleMissCub has speculated that Cooper was left-handed, including on Darren S.’s podcast.

Yes, your comment makes sense now.. 

olemisscub was suggesting Cooper MAY have been a lefty here on this forum.. while he had Vordahl as a suspect..

Did they claim Vordahl was a lefty?

Edited November 25, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Eight Raleighs 12]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, your comment makes sense now.. 

olemisscub was suggesting Cooper MAY have been a lefty here on this forum.. while he had Vordahl as a suspect..

Did they claim Vordahl was a lefty?

He’s drinking with his right hand in the GIF. That said, just a short while ago, my wife and I were playing Scrabble. I was drinking with my left hand and playing with my right - the drink was set to my left so as not to interfere with the game play. So it’s not like people exclusively use their dominant hand.

[FLYJACK 716]

1 hour ago, Eight Raleighs said:

He’s drinking with his right hand in the GIF. That said, just a short while ago, my wife and I were playing Scrabble. I was drinking with my left hand and playing with my right - the drink was set to my left so as not to interfere with the game play. So it’s not like people exclusively use their dominant hand.

Yup. Same with smokers, usually the dominant hand but not exclusively..

That said, is anybody claiming Vordahl was left handed?

If olemisscub was pushing the possibility before disclosing his suspect, that is suspicious.

 

I can't get past this image if it is accurate.. that is an obvious distinguishing characteristic no witness would miss..

His lower lip is massive and his lower jaw extends..

It is not a "sort of protruding lower lip"..

Edited November 25, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Math of Insects 98]

Personally I wouldn't put too much stock in that one screen cap. It looks at least as likely to be a fleeting microexpression as it does anything "real" and permanent. 

Overall I find Vordahl a good match for the sketches when viewed through the filter of, if someone saw Vordahl, would they describe his features in ways that result in those sketches. As others have noted, he's even a decent match for the Dracula sketch, which would otherwise have seemed to be at odds with the previous ones. 

I could see people trying to describe an issue with the mouth or lower lip and not knowing which words to use. I do think they could see his complexion and try to find a way to describe it that captures that he's darker complected without looking necessarily "dark." That little cut-out of the hairline is notable too. And other features are dead-on matches. Overall he's probably the best match of any current suspects, at least given what we all know about the descriptions. (Fly has indicated there is additional information that might be at odds with the public info.)
I'll put it this way: He's probably as good a match as Petersen is bad.

I'm bothered by how debonair he comes across. That drink gif could be a screen grab from Goodfellas. That's not the vibe I associate with Cooper from the descriptions. 

But for me the match is meaningless without knowing the provenance of the tie or soundness of the data-collection process and results, without knowing if the assumptions made from it are correct, and without putting that guy on that plane for a potential mass-murder/suicide/certain prison mission. I think he deserves to be discussed as a possibility--to the exact same extent that Petersen does not. But until those three very big holes are filled--data plus the presumptions from it plus him undertaking this fool's errand of a caper--he has to be considered "just a guy who sort of matches the pictures, if you ignore his age." If someone uncovers a gambling addiction or mistress he had to pay off or something career-ending he was going to be accused of at work or something, that would at least hint at motive. And even then, it will only matter if the data is sound and the presumptions made from are logical, which we don't know. 

For me he's a fun suspect to consider and involves fewer hoops than Petersen, AKA, the world's most comically incorrect suspect. But the whole case relies on the tie data being correct and reliable, the presumptions made from it being accurate, and him getting on that airplane for what he would have had every reason to assume was his last act as either a free or living man. Those bars haven't been met yet. So he remains tantalizing but meaningless.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Math of Insects

[olemisscub 512]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

That said, is anybody claiming Vordahl was left handed?

My thinking Cooper was a lefty was just a personal theory I've had for years (being a lefty myself). Nothing to do with Vordahl. 

Vordahl's grandson can't remember if his grandfather was a lefty or not. In the video clips we managed to grab of him he's drinking right handed and eating left handed. So it really doesn't tell us anything

. 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by olemisscub