DB Cooper

[olemisscub 510]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Probably, I did a FOIA on the chute packing cards, they said any info will be released in "the FBI vault"..

I sent that 302 over to Meltzer as he had never seen it before. He was quite amazed at it. It's another check mark in the "Tosaw didn't make this up" side of the ledger. 

The language of that 302 is intriguing. It calls the "Cooper packing card" an "integral part" of the remaining chute. This makes me think that Cooper just tucked the card under the canvas folds of the chute pack. I'm not sure they'd have used that language if it had been put in the packing card pocket i.e. the agents didn't pull both cards out of the same pocket.  

[FLYJACK 711]

37 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I sent that 302 over to Meltzer as he had never seen it before. He was quite amazed at it. It's another check mark in the "Tosaw didn't make this up" side of the ledger. 

The language of that 302 is intriguing. It calls the "Cooper packing card" an "integral part" of the remaining chute. This makes me think that Cooper just tucked the card under the canvas folds of the chute pack. I'm not sure they'd have used that language if it had been put in the packing card pocket i.e. the agents didn't pull both cards out of the same pocket.  

There are many FBI files that support this,,

I am 100% certain that SN 60-9707 packing card is for Hayden's back chute Cooper used and he must have pulled it out of the pocket and left it behind.. The other back chute with SN 226 card went back to Hayden. Both packed by Cossey May 21, 1971.

That means, Cossey's description was wrong about the chute Cooper used. IMO, he initially assumed his chute was used but never corrected the record. (this destroys Gryder's chute stunt)

They were looking for the wrong chute, Cooper's chute may have been found and dismissed. Many were found in the area.. One found in the South Fork Lewis near Heisson is particularly interesting. 

and Cooper was an experienced jumper, rejecting instructions, pulling and checking the cards.. since they were virtually identical he used the slightly newer one..

and since the FBI had Cooper's chute card without realizing it, you have to question their competence. The FBI relied too much on Cossey and were never able to get Cossey's records.

Is this big,,  yeah, it is big..

Edited December 7, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Nicholas Broughton 69]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

There are many FBI files that support this,,

I am 100% certain that SN 60-9707 packing card is for Hayden's back chute Cooper used and he must have pulled it out of the pocket and left it behind.. The other back chute with SN 226 card went back to Hayden. Both packed by Cossey May 21, 1971.

That means, Cossey's description was wrong about the chute Cooper used. IMO, he initially assumed his chute was used but never corrected the record. (this destroys Gryder's chute stunt)

They were looking for the wrong chute, Cooper's chute may have been found and dismissed. Many were found in the area.. One found in the South Fork Lewis near Heisson is particularly interesting. 

and Cooper was an experienced jumper, rejecting instructions, pulling and checking the cards.. since they were virtually identical he used the slightly newer one..

and since the FBI had Cooper's chute card without realizing it, you have to question their competence. The FBI relied too much on Cossey and were never able to get Cossey's records.

Is this big,,  yeah, it is big..

You can’t assume cooper was looking for packing cards to check them for parachuting purposes. He could of been checking the pockets for trackers and found the packing card and decided to take it out as it could be used to identify the chute. 

[FLYJACK 711]

13 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

You can’t assume cooper was looking for packing cards to check them for parachuting purposes. He could of been checking the pockets for trackers and found the packing card and decided to take it out as it could be used to identify the chute. 

Wrong, the pockets only fit a small card and say "inspection and packing data".. Hayden's returned chute..

He pulled the cards and checked them..

Nice try though.. Cooper also rejected the instructions, he had parachute experience.

Don't be that guy....

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Nicholas Broughton 69]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

Wrong, the pockets only fit a small card and say "inspection and packing data".. Hayden's returned chute..

He pulled the cards and checked them..

Nice try though.. Cooper also rejected the instructions, he had parachute experience.

 

Well if the pocket is labeled like that then it’s self explanatory and it would make sense to remove the paperwork that ID’s the chute. If he had parachute experience why not bring his own rig? Why use laymen terminology like front and back chutes instead of mains and reserves? Why not specify the type of rigs? Those are things I would expect from somebody with a parachutist background… there picky and selective about what they jump with. 

[FLYJACK 711]

13 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Well if the pocket is labeled like that then it’s self explanatory and it would make sense to remove the paperwork that ID’s the chute. If he had parachute experience why not bring his own rig? Why use laymen terminology like front and back chutes instead of mains and reserves? Why not specify the type of rigs? Those are things I would expect from somebody with a parachutist background… there picky and selective about what they jump with. 

Sport jumpers are picky and prefer their own chutes.

Cooper had military jump experience and probably hadn't jumped in a while. He was 45-50ish..

Cooper thought the chutes were coming from McChord..

He checked the cards and probably the seals.. IMO, he tossed the dummy because it had no card or seal.

Also, he was not nervous and put the harness on easily.. A non jumper would be nervous and struggle with the harness.. 

Evidence is solid.. Cooper had some jump experience, almost certainly from the military. 

[olemisscub 510]

You can sense the frustration the FBI had with Cossey in the 302's. It doesn't seem like he ever provided them with the serial numbers he claimed he was going to give them. 

[FLYJACK 711]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

You can sense the frustration the FBI had with Cossey in the 302's. It doesn't seem like he ever provided them with the serial numbers he claimed he was going to give them. 

Yes, at one point Cossey told them he gave them everything he had..  they noted they never got them.

Riggers are required to keep records,, he probably didn't want to because he got the chutes wrong..

Without the records, it would mean Cossey was the only go to for identification..

but the FBI unknowingly had the packing card for the back chute Cooper used.. crazy stuff.

[JAGdb 89]

After the hijacking, the FBI had the unused back chute in custody, this is the one that was eventually returned to Hayden, at his request and ultimately donated to WSHM.

While they had that back chute in evidence, did they have Cossey come in and physically inspect it ?  If so, it wouldn't have matched his prior descriptions to the FBI right ?  

[FLYJACK 711]

9 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

After the hijacking, the FBI had the unused back chute in custody, this is the one that was eventually returned to Hayden, at his request and ultimately donated to WSHM.

While they had that back chute in evidence, did they have Cossey come in and physically inspect it ?  If so, it wouldn't have matched his prior descriptions to the FBI right ?  

Well, it didn't go down like that,,

The FBI contacted Cossey when the chutes were recovered from the plane and described them to Cossey.. they told him the tan pioneer back chute was recovered so Cossey said the other was his NB6/8 and he gave a description. So, Cossey never gave a prior description of the back chute that was left in the plane and returned to Hayden..

Interestingly, of the very early chute descriptions which were not from Cossey, one matches the chute returned to Hayden and the one Cooper used does not match Cossey's description.

Once Cossey described his back chute the FBI went with that description.

[olemisscub 510]

Lot’s of agent confusion about the size of the canopies in the respective main chutes. They alternate between 26 and 28 foot.

Thank Allah for the 302’s on the chutes. With them I was finally able to expunge from the Wikipedia page all the civilian sport luxury chute nonsense that the FBI put out into the zeitgeist.

Edited December 7, 2022 by olemisscub

[georger 244]

54 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

After the hijacking, the FBI had the unused back chute in custody, this is the one that was eventually returned to Hayden, at his request and ultimately donated to WSHM.

While they had that back chute in evidence, did they have Cossey come in and physically inspect it ?  If so, it wouldn't have matched his prior descriptions to the FBI right ?  

Exactly! ................ hmmmmmmmmmm.   Any idea how any chutes Cossey packed or repacked in a given year .... during 1971 ?   When did he pack and certify Hayden's chutes? Would he even remember without looking at his records? I assume he had to keep records?

Edited December 7, 2022 by georger

[Robert99 50]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Lot’s of agent confusion about the size of the canopies in the respective main chutes. They alternate between 26 and 28 foot.

Thank Allah for the 302’s on the chutes. With them I was finally able to expunge from the Wikipedia page all the civilian sport luxury chute nonsense that the FBI put out into the zeitgeist.

The Hayden's backpack that was left on the plane and that is now on exhibit at WSHM does not have a single component from an NB-6 parachute.

However, there is a possibility that a 26-foot conical canopy was in the chest pack that was opened and left on the airplane.  The normal military chest pack at that time was a 24-foot twill canopy. 

But the 26-foot conical canopy could apparently be packed in the same container as the 24-foot twill canopy.  377 has posted that in his early jumping days he had a 26-foot conical reserve and that he came down on it a couple of times.

I have not seen a detailed description of the chest pack canopy that was left on the airliner and had some shroud lines removed.  Tom Kaye has described this canopy to some extent but I don't remember seeing any information about its size or the fabric.

So does anyone have a detailed description of the chest pack canopy that was left on the airliner such as its diameter, how the shroud lines were connected to the risers, and the canopy material?  

[FLYJACK 711]

6 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The Hayden's backpack that was left on the plane and that is now on exhibit at WSHM does not have a single component from an NB-6 parachute.

However, there is a possibility that a 26-foot conical canopy was in the chest pack that was opened and left on the airplane.  The normal military chest pack at that time was a 24-foot twill canopy. 

But the 26-foot conical canopy could apparently be packed in the same container as the 24-foot twill canopy.  377 has posted that in his early jumping days he had a 26-foot conical reserve and that he came down on it a couple of times.

I have not seen a detailed description of the chest pack canopy that was left on the airliner and had some shroud lines removed.  Tom Kaye has described this canopy to some extent but I don't remember seeing any information about its size or the fabric.

So does anyone have a detailed description of the chest pack canopy that was left on the airliner such as its diameter, how the shroud lines were connected to the risers, and the canopy material?  

The description of Cooper's back chute was inconsistent, but the good front reserve was consistent..

A 24 ft ripstop.

[olemisscub 510]

On 12/5/2022 at 9:21 AM, CooperNWO305 said:

What's interesting is in the pic I have from the book, this middle paragraph is removed, so it reads as "as soon as this lowering of the door and stairs were accomplished in flight.."  So from the book, it seems contradictory, but from the actual 302 it is not.

 

Interesting. Just looked at it myself. Marty missed a paragraph there.

 

[CooperNWO305 151]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

The description of Cooper's back chute was inconsistent, but the good front reserve was consistent..

A 24 ft ripstop.

So is the general feeling now that both back chutes were both actually more military vs one being military and one being civilian (military modified chute) and that they were essentially the same?

[olemisscub 510]

18 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

So is the general feeling now that both back chutes were both actually more military vs one being military and one being civilian (military modified chute) and that they were essentially the same?

A couple 302's describing the chutes, the first one being from the very next day with a description from Hayden

 

 

[olemisscub 510]

Here is Cossey interviewed the next day for the paper:

 

[Andrade1812 51]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Interesting. Just looked at it myself. Marty missed a paragraph there.

 

I'd be surprised if that was the only mistake I made transcribing those damn things.

[FLYJACK 711]

48 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

So is the general feeling now that both back chutes were both actually more military vs one being military and one being civilian (military modified chute) and that they were essentially the same?

I don't get the semantics, civilian/luxury/sport??, even Hayden said the FBI "civilian luxury type" description wasn't accurate.

They were both modified military bailout rigs..

Edited December 7, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 50]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The description of Cooper's back chute was inconsistent, but the good front reserve was consistent..

A 24 ft ripstop.

Can the parachute riggers or skydivers on this site confirm that the above correctly identifies a 24-foot ripstop canopy, type SN DA5853912 (whatever that may be)?

[FLYJACK 711]

5 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Can the parachute riggers or skydivers on this site confirm that the above correctly identifies a 24-foot ripstop canopy, type SN DA5853912 (whatever that may be)?

From citizenslueths..

SN matches..

material looks like ripstop..

Edited December 7, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 711]

57 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

A couple 302's describing the chutes, the first one being from the very next day with a description from Hayden

Carefully notice here the early description of backpack #1.. olive drab green container, soft tan cotton harness...   Cossey claimed his NB6/8 chute, the one Cooper used was sage green nylon container and sage green nylon harness..

Backpack #2 is SN 226 returned to Hayden.

[olemisscub 510]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Carefully notice here the early description of backpack #1.. olive drab green container, soft tan cotton harness...   Cossey claimed his NB6/8 chute, the one Cooper used was sage green nylon container and sage green nylon harness..

Backpack #2 is SN 226 returned to Hayden.

Indeed. Perhaps Cossey was thinking of olive drab when he said "sage green"? Obviously he was clearly off on the harness color because you can't confuse sage green for tan. 

My take on Cossey's behavior in those early days is that he didn't exactly remember the chutes vividly and may have also been lazy about his record keeping, thus his evasiveness about the serial numbers.  

He seems to me like an ADHD type of individual who just wasn't very well organized and in lieu of admitting that he just didn't remember he would instead just make things up and embellish. 

[CooperNWO305 151]

I don't see Cooper as a skydiver, but the narrative for a while was that there was no way he was a skydiver because he chose the military chute and a skydiver would have chosen the civilian one. That term "luxury" has been burned in my brain for years, but lately I'm sensing that it simply was not luxury.  So one of the reasons we discounted skydivers may not be a valid reason anymore.  I still think there are other reasons though that indicate he was not a skydiver to the level of a Sheridan Peterson.