DB Cooper

[Andrade1812 51]

Cooper Vortex Debate Night!

PodCLASH Exclusive!

Eric Ullis versus The Crushinator

Next Sunday!

[Andrade1812 51]

Just now, Andrade1812 said:

Cooper Vortex Debate Night!

PodCLASH Exclusive!

Eric Ullis versus The Crushinator

Next Sunday!

I'm totally game, I'll debate anyone on anything.

[FLYJACK 711]

2 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

I'm totally game, I'll debate anyone on anything.

Now, that is what I am talkin bout.....

[olemisscub 510]

21 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

I'm totally game, I'll debate anyone on anything.

Lennon or McCartney?

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Yes I know you're right, but I guess I have to ask how many people on the planet can ramble about the Cooper case for 3 hours and stick mostly to the known facts? A dozen? Less?

I think keeping the case alive in the public eye is critical. Getting into the case via misinformation is often times better than not getting into it at all. Smart people will adapt and recognize that the misinformation that originally got them into the case was incorrect and they'll start learning and getting into the correct minutiae of the case. Hell, it was misinformation-laden media that got most of us into the case with the Unsolved Mysteries or In Search Of episodes, etc. 

There are some really sharp people who have joined the case due to both of the dumb Rackstraw productions, the one in 2016 and the most recent Netflix show. Also, people can dislike Ulis all they want but the Facebook Group has been a great thing and has brought a lot of neat evidence to light. I'm also grateful to Ulis for doing the CooperCon thing. It's great to have event so we can "gather the tribe", as Bruce called it. 

I think Darren's podcast has the same effect. He gets between 10k to up to 20k listeners an episode. That's pretty awesome. 

Point is, keeping the case in the public eye is key to bringing new minds into the case and keeping the topic fresh in the public consciousness. 

It's too bad you aren't able to do Darren's show. You should start your own show as you've suggested. I can be your first guest, haha.

The Facebook group is a closed page! Nicky Broughton  and Ulis have kept people off 'their page' - intentionally. Thats a first in the history of Cooper forums.   People condemn Ulis and Broughton for a reason!   That is the opposite of keeping the case in the public eye and it has complicated everything.  

keeping the case in the public eye "is" as keeping the case in the public eye "does". There have been very negative consequences of their actions, and they know and intended that. These are political deniers. 

The Cooper case is bigger and more important than any individual. Nobody can own or control the case for very long. Every attempt to take over the case has failed and always will. 

Flyjack, Tom Kaye, Darren, and the FBI's continuing effort have probably done more to keep this case alive than most others, in the current regime. Tom Kaye's work has been central above and beyond anything I envisioned. It takes "tools and training" to move a case beyond speculation to actual investigation.

Edited December 8, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 711]

The tie was tested for bodily fluids and probably prints as well,,

Does anybody have insights on what tests were used circa 1971 and what types of particles may have been left on the tie?? I know fluorescents were used and fingerprint powder had lots of stuff like Ti... but there were many mixtures.

[FLYJACK 711]

3 hours ago, DWeber said:

There is a 302 where Gregory is shown a picture of the highjacker from Honduras and he states it does not resemble Cooper in any way 

Yes, that was a composite b/w sketch, a bad one.

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

38 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The tie was tested for bodily fluids and probably prints as well,,

Does anybody have insights on what tests were used circa 1971 and what types of particles may have been left on the tie?? I know fluorescents were used and fingerprint powder had lots of stuff like Ti... but there were many mixtures.

Very good point finally brought up! Yes the tie was tested by the Lab. More than once? Any 302s about testing the tie?  Was the tie contaminated by Lab testing .... like the money was?  Testing is one thing. Destructive testing is a whole different matter. 

[FLYJACK 711]

4 minutes ago, georger said:

Very good point finally brought up! Yes the tie was tested by the Lab. More than once? Any 302s about testing the tie?  Was the tie contaminated by Lab testing .... like the money was?  Testing is one thing. Destructive testing is a whole different matter. 

Just these...

[georger 244]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

Just these...

Once again you rise to the occasion. Kudos!

[ParrotheadVol 70]

I finally got around to watching Gryder's recent McCoy video. Dan does a good job with these, and he comes across as a decent dude. But, he did act like a spoiled little kid when the reaction to his first McCoy video wasn't what he wanted. It's too bad about the parachute. It's one thing to have a suspect and be wrong about it. But it's something else completely to knowingly put out false (or manufactured) evidence to try and prove your argument. Dan certainly isn't the first to do this when it comes to Cooper, nor will he be the last. There is no question - planted or not - that he knew that wasn't Cooper's chute. He's not going to be able to walk that one back. Credibility is a fragile thing. Once it's gone, it seldom returns.

Also, who the hell walks around in the woods with a damn guitar?

[ParrotheadVol 70]

4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Lennon or McCartney?

Davey Jones and Michael Nesmith .

[Andrade1812 51]

33 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Davey Jones and Michael Nesmith .

Ringo!

[olemisscub 510]

I cleaned up Dr. Edwards' new high res copy of KK5-1 that was mixed with the lower half of the Newsweek scammer (the one Bill and Flo said was closest to Cooper they had ever seen).

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 510]

50 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

 

Also, who the hell walks around in the woods with a damn guitar?

Someone who is very, very vain. 

[olemisscub 510]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, that was a composite b/w sketch, a bad one.

 

It's Michael Douglas from Falling Down

[FLYJACK 711]

 I have maybe a dozen pics and he looks like three completely different people..

A single image is weak,, probably true for most of the suspects.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by FLYJACK

[JAGdb 89]

They probably wouldn't have used Luminol on the tie back then since they weren't looking for blood.  But I wonder if trying it now on the tie could potentially reveal traces of blood? Sputum and/or urine can carry blood.  It's possible that it may have been carried to the tie by sneezing or even urine droplets that splash up while going to the bathroom?  It's a long shot...and I don't know if Luminol can pick up blood that is 50+ years old.

[FLYJACK 711]

30 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

They probably wouldn't have used Luminol on the tie back then since they weren't looking for blood.  But I wonder if trying it now on the tie could potentially reveal traces of blood? Sputum and/or urine can carry blood.  It's possible that it may have been carried to the tie by sneezing or even urine droplets that splash up while going to the bathroom?  It's a long shot...and I don't know if Luminol can pick up blood that is 50+ years old.

Hard to know, the lab tested it in 1972 then they did again in 2002 when they got the mixed DNA..

Question is.. could any of the testing (including potential fingerprint testing) have left any of the particles.. 

I read a McCrone case study about SS steel particles being found somewhere that were from the water system.. 

but the issue is that some of those particles may have been deposited after the hijacking, in storage or testing..

was the tie sitting stored with the chutes..

Edited December 9, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 711]

Here, Emrick recalled.. he was asked for "four chutes" but learned that the two backs were secured so he only sent the two fronts...

Cossey wasn't aware of this and assumed his back chutes from Issaquah were used.. he was asked to ID the chute Cooper used before he learned of it.. thereby giving the wrong description.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 711]

The FBI kept the evidence in a box including the tie.. particle contamination would be inevitable in handling or storage..

 

 

[olemisscub 510]

39 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The FBI kept the evidence in a box including the tie.. particle contamination would be inevitable in handling or storage..

 

 

fbibox.mov 1.51 MB · 1 download  

Contamination to some degree would be inevitable, but look at the prevalence of elements like chromium, tungsten, molybdenum, and vanadium, which are all almost exclusively used in the creation of metal alloys and aren't encountered in the wild very often by civilians. To have all of them one after the other popping up on a tie that also has that much pure titanium really seems to indicate that the those particles didn't arrive there by contamination. It's quite possible that Cooper picked the tie up randomly or he snatched it from somewhere, but I think it's hard to argue that the tie, at some point in its life, was worn by someone in the metals industry. 

It would be nice if a control had been done with some sticky stubs being applied to other items shoved in that box. 

[georger 244]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Contamination to some degree would be inevitable, but look at the prevalence of elements like chromium, tungsten, molybdenum, and vanadium, which are all almost exclusively used in the creation of metal alloys and aren't encountered in the wild very often by civilians. To have all of them one after the other popping up on a tie that also has that much pure titanium really seems to indicate that the those particles didn't arrive there by contamination. It's quite possible that Cooper picked the tie up randomly or he snatched it from somewhere, but I think it's hard to argue that the tie, at some point in its life, was worn by someone in the metals industry. 

It would be nice if a control had been done with some sticky stubs being applied to other items shoved in that box. 

I tend to agree. Those particles did not come from a clean lab environment!  Unless it was a lab in Moscow!

[FLYJACK 711]

33 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Contamination to some degree would be inevitable, but look at the prevalence of elements like chromium, tungsten, molybdenum, and vanadium, which are all almost exclusively used in the creation of metal alloys and aren't encountered in the wild very often by civilians. To have all of them one after the other popping up on a tie that also has that much pure titanium really seems to indicate that the those particles didn't arrive there by contamination. It's quite possible that Cooper picked the tie up randomly or he snatched it from somewhere, but I think it's hard to argue that the tie, at some point in its life, was worn by someone in the metals industry. 

It would be nice if a control had been done with some sticky stubs being applied to other items shoved in that box. 

What about particle contamination on an airplane flying with the bulkhead door open to an engine or via the air bleed system...  how do we control for those.

The problem is we don't have context.. many of those particles are common.

The rare ones are found in electronics, pyrotechnics, medical, dentistry, pigments/paints, automotive and more.. 

It is a rats nest trying to sort it out...

 

There are two issues,, 

First, the tie knot had an amount of dust, that suggests it was sitting for some time before Norjak.

and if you look at the UV image, the particle distribution is not evenly random,, there  are horizontal patterns as if the tie was wiping something or lying in particle dust.. the UV particles are also on the rear tie piece. Tom's Boeing control tie UV image is evenly random.

This indicates that many of the particles were likley deposited on the tie when not worn.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 151]

I don’t think anyone is saying that box was filled with all the particles. My observation is in line with many others, and that is we don’t know where the tie was before or after. When there are stories of FBI agents wearing it at parties as well as 14 DNA profiles and Tom’s DNA, then one has to wonder. 
 

My stance as been the same for years. The tie probably came from some industrial setting. Tracing that to one location is impossible, regardless of how much we’d like to do that. For a large group of people who disagree with Eric on things, it’s unusual to now see them agreeing with his research on the particles. 
 

One final note. There is this push to go upstream on the particles, as in where were they manufactured? Why not go further upstream and find where they were mined or refined? But better yet, why not go downstream to where these elements were used? You guys say “metals”. Do you realize how many metals related companies were in the US in 1971? We helped win WWII. The US went to the Moon in 1969. This discussion is fun, but the lectures are getting tiring. 
 

None of the elements on the tie are uncommon. None. Some are just more common than others. Find some uranium or plutonium and then we have a lead. 
 

When will we have scientists with documented degrees in science at the Masters or PhD levels giving us credible information? Has McCrone weighed in?

I’ll say this to both teams about both suspects. If the tie theory fell apart, is your guy still a good suspect? Age? Description? Background? If you found someone at RemCru who fit the profile better, would you consider him? How do you know you found everyone that worked at those companies in 1965? I can’t even find out who worked at an office a year ago. 

Edited December 9, 2022 by CooperNWO305