DB Cooper

[The Cooper Vortex 100]

16 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

that's right, wasn't he like hanging off the stairs or something ?  I know he said he was spinning out of control on the free fall....

The pilots figured he wouldn't know how fast they were going, so they tried to kill him with speed. McNally "jumped" at over 300mph.

[olemisscub 510]

11 minutes ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

The pilots figured he wouldn't know how fast they were going, so they tried to kill him with speed. McNally "jumped" at over 300mph.

and was only wearing a reserve when he jumped, which knocked him silly when it opened. His hijacking is certainly the most comical. He lands hard on his butt, lays next to a tree and sleeps for 8 hours, then wakes up and is given a ride to the local town by the literal Sheriff of that county, then stays in the same hotel with FBI agents who are hunting him. Completely bonkers. Couple all of that with the drunk who rammed his original 727 upon takeoff. 

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

which he was concerned with according to the gate agent.

 

Where does this come from?

[FLYJACK 711]

1 hour ago, JAGdb said:

Yeah, arguing over which air port, large vs small, is interesting.  What would his objection be to a larger air port--more risk due to the ability of authorities to mobilize faster/better ?  Would SeaTac fall into that larger air port category ?  I know there has been some speculation that maybe he wanted to stay away from any coastal cities as to maybe not get dumped out over the ocean.

Now, if he decided to abort his original plan of going to Mexico, why jump where he did (somewhere in Washington), and not wait a little longer to get farther south and into a better weather and hence better jump situation ?  Technically, he had the whole area from Seattle to Reno to pick a better jump off point, to the extent that he could reasonably discern from standing out over the aft stairs.

Lastly, what would be the plan if the plane did cross the boarder to Mexico?  He must have had some type of plan because if he jumped anywhere, he could wind up in the middle of a desert.  This would be interesting to ponder...he had to have had a target area right ?  

When Reno was in play he decided to jump ASAP.. being on the plane when it landed was risky, he had the money and the opportunity to get out. Jumping closer to take-off would give him more time.

[FLYJACK 711]

15 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Where does this come from?

That was a typo.. was NOT concerned with the weather.. I corrected it.. the gate agent said he was the only passenger waiting that was not concerned with the bad weather..

If you were planning to jump in the PNW you would be concerned..

[FLYJACK 711]

1 hour ago, JAGdb said:

Hahneman had quite an adventure, he forced the plane to land again after he didn't like the $100 denomination and then he had to switch planes later when there was some type of hydraulic issue I believe.  

And he was still able to pull it off and land safely with the money -- over the jungle right ?  

Whether he was Cooper or not, he seems to have had the most challenging circumstances of all the 727 hijackers.

Lots to unwind there,, some not accurate.

but he jumped at night over the jungle with slight injuries.

[olemisscub 510]

27 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That was a typo.. was NOT concerned with the weather.. I corrected it.. the gate agent said he was the only passenger waiting that was not concerned with the bad weather..

If you were planning to jump in the PNW you would be concerned..

Devil's advocate here: He only inferred that because Cooper wasn't jibber-jabbering with the other passengers. He may have internally been very concerned. It's just like how people might say that Cooper wasn't nervous during the hijacking. What that actually means is that he wasn't outwardly nervous. He was a human being...of course he was nervous. He just did a remarkable job of hiding it. 

[FLYJACK 711]

4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Devil's advocate here: He only inferred that because Cooper wasn't jibber-jabbering with the other passengers. He may have internally been very concerned. It's just like how people might say that Cooper wasn't nervous during the hijacking. What that actually means is that he wasn't outwardly nervous. He was a human being...of course he was nervous. He just did a remarkable job of hiding it. 

Maybe, this is just one minor piece that fits a hypothesis..

.. if he was about to jump he would be concerned about the weather.. if everyone else was concerned why the need to hide it. Unconcerned, he now stuck out. It is also possible Williams misread the situation.

"WILLIAMS stated he has a habit of noticing individuals dressed in black and this was the reason he remembers the above described individual. The man described above had a “blah” attitude and was quite unaffected by the inclement weather conditions prevailing at the time, which noticeably bothered the rest of the passengers."

and remember Cooper's initial demand was airstairs to be lowered after takeoff.

Edited December 13, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 711]

7 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Yeah, arguing over which air port, large vs small, is interesting.  What would his objection be to a larger air port--more risk due to the ability of authorities to mobilize faster/better ?  Would SeaTac fall into that larger air port category ?  I know there has been some speculation that maybe he wanted to stay away from any coastal cities as to maybe not get dumped out over the ocean.

The argument that Cooper wanted to avoid coastal cities to avoid the Ocean doesn't make any sense..

Cooper agreed to Red Bluff then across to Reno.

Cooper was offered San Francisco, LA and San Diego all rejected for being too big..

San Francisco is in a direct line over Red Bluff,, LA and San Diego are East of Red Bluff and even East of Reno in a direct flight..

If the crew wanted to go over the Ocean they could have even if they were flying to Reno..

The best explanation is that at that time Cooper thought he was still going to be on the plane when it landed to refuel... he didn't want to be on the plane at a large airport... more confusion, less control and higher risk.

Edited December 14, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Andrade1812 51]

Can we get a complete accounting of all the 302s dealing with the parachutes? I'm especially looking for info on the serial numbers.

I'm looking to update my book in the coming 18 months, so I'd like everything rock solid. Where do we see SN 60-9707 and SN 226?

Edited December 14, 2022 by Andrade1812

[ParrotheadVol 70]

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Couple all of that with the drunk who rammed his original 727 upon takeoff. 

That is what I was referring to. McNally also tied the money to himself with twine that he bought from a hardware store. Anyone wondering what a Duane Weber hijacking would look like should look no further than Martin McNally's adventure. Damn entertaining story though.

[olemisscub 510]

20 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

. Anyone wondering what a Duane Weber hijacking would look like should look no further than Martin McNally's adventure. 

Hahahaha that’s hysterical 

[olemisscub 510]

46 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

Can we get a complete accounting of all the 302s dealing with the parachutes? I'm especially looking for info on the serial numbers.

I'm looking to update my book in the coming 18 months, so I'd like everything rock solid. Where do we see SN 60-9707 and SN 226?

This is most of everything that actually has the serial numbers. It's all from Nov and Dec 71 mostly. There are plenty of parachute 302's elsewhere but it's almost always Cossey verifying whether a chute was Cooper's or not, and the veracity of his statements in those are quite sketchy. I wouldn't deem them reliable. This is a grouping of 302's that I would consider to be the most reliable statements. 

Parachute-302s.pdf

[georger 244]

2 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

That is what I was referring to. McNally also tied the money to himself with twine that he bought from a hardware store. Anyone wondering what a Duane Weber hijacking would look like should look no further than Martin McNally's adventure. Damn entertaining story though.

Duane was not DB Cooper - nor was Daffy Duck. It looks as if Duane resisted Jo's insinuation.

Edited December 14, 2022 by georger

[dudeman17 340]

10 hours ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

McNally...

 

10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

...was only wearing a reserve when he jumped

So was Cooper.

[olemisscub 510]

10 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

 

So was Cooper.

No he wasn’t. His harness didn’t even have D-Rings.

[FLYJACK 711]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

No he wasn’t. His harness didn’t even have D-Rings.

Both were reserves.. 

Cooper's back pack was a reserve and McNally had a chest reserve..

[dudeman17 340]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

No he wasn’t. His harness didn’t even have D-Rings.

Pilot bailout rigs are reserves. That's why they don't have D-rings. The canopies are reserves, designed, built, tested and TSO'd as such. Required to be packed by a rigger, which is why they have seals and packing cards. None of that applies to mains.

 

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

McNally had a chest reserve

Did McNally just have a military airman's harness, with no back container, just the D-rings to attach the front reserve pack?

[FLYJACK 711]

9 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Did McNally just have a military airman's harness, with no back container, just the D-rings to attach the front reserve pack?

In this article this is labeled as the mailbag McNally received the money in.. but it looks like a front harness.. and the image is labelled parachute.

https://www.metrotimes.com/news/the-final-flight-of-martin-mcnally-2483257?storyPage=3

Edited December 14, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

Somewhere I read or heard that he was given 5 reserve chutes. Clearly my nomenclature on chutes isn’t what it needs to be, however, I do remember him stating that his chute hit him in the face when he opened it.

[FLYJACK 711]

11 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Pilot bailout rigs are reserves. That's why they don't have D-rings. The canopies are reserves, designed, built, tested and TSO'd as such. Required to be packed by a rigger, which is why they have seals and packing cards. None of that applies to mains.

So, that got me thinking,, Cooper asked for front and back chutes, this terminology goes back to WW2. But, WW2 used static lines, except aircrews.. 

What would he have expected to get.. or technically.. what was he actually requesting.. and what does that indicate about Cooper.

Two front reserves and two mains?? 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Andrade1812 51]

On the Grimerica podcast it was claimed that none of the witnesses ID'd McCoy, however this is untrue:

[FLYJACK 711]

Gryder has lost any cred with that phoney parachute stunt..

He also said Cooper's tie and clasp was 100% identified as belonging to McCoy.. um no

had one "similar".... when shown a photo.. dark blue or black?

Edited December 14, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:25 PM, FLYJACK said:

When Reno was in play he decided to jump ASAP.. being on the plane when it landed was risky, he had the money and the opportunity to get out. Jumping closer to take-off would give him more time.

From a tactical point of view, the fueling stall delayed Cooper's original timeline. Having the door open and stairs out and accessible, means he can theoretically leave any time he wants - anywhere along the flight path he has agreed to. It sounds like he didnt think the pilots could detect his leaving? Very likely Cooper is keeping track of time because a 'timeline' is part of his original demand. I think he bailed where he originally intended to bail except later than he wanted,  and he sent the plane on a long flight consuming more time thinking/hoping nobody would detect where he had left - all of which depends on him having a parachute on and being to leave even before the plane has become airborne again after landing at Seattle. He got everyone to comply with his demands which is precisely what he wanted!  His "plan" worked because people complied. Cooper worked psychology to get what he wanted. That much is obvious and was obvious the minute he rejected Flo in favor of the more rational: Mucklow who was effective and compliant. Cooper's hijacking relies on psychology vs  brute force. Cooper is a thinker vs a reactor. Cooper is a  manager vs a worker - something Mucklow picked up on and reported, but nobody paid any attention. Rataczak reacted to this with anger, frustration, and confusion! 

Cooper's demands are and define his plan!

Edited December 14, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

11 minutes ago, georger said:

It sounds like he didnt think the pilots could detect his leaving? 

This is precisely it. Just makes the most sense that he would bail closest to where his (probable) original transportation was i.e. near Portland. 

As others have said, if he didn't care where he bailed out then why not wait another 15 minutes or so and he'd have been over remarkably better terrain for which to make a parachute landing. I don't think it's a coincidence that he bailed out near where the hijacking began. 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by olemisscub