DB Cooper

[CooperNWO305 151]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I found in my research that aircrew's used either front or back bailout rigs and that terminology was used from WW2 on.. they didn't seem to use both..  this suggests Cooper may have expected 4 independent rigs with harnesses, not just two sets. McNalley got and used a front chute with a harness.

For something like a C-47, they would sit in a rack and get put on quickly for an emergency bailout.. 

My research is in line with Fly’s. I talked to some Navy guys of the era about a plane named the Twin Beech. Beechcraft. Recon plane and had other uses. They sent me pics and this info. This would indicate that air crews would know harnesses and chutes but may never have jumped. Makes me think of a life preserver drill you’d do on a ship, but may not have gone overboard. 
 

“The aircrew would wear parachute harnesses but the QAC chest packs were stowed in the cabin. In the SNB-5P/RC-45J they stowed quick attach chest pack parachutes on the back of each of the forward cabin seats on bungees and hooks and the aft seat ‘chute was stowed under the seat on the floor with similar bungees and hooks as can be seen in the photo. The pilots stowed their QAC chest packs on a shelf right across from the entry door. The door could be jettisoned to bail out.”

[FLYJACK 711]

20 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

My research is in line with Fly’s. I talked to some Navy guys of the era about a plane named the Twin Beech. Beechcraft. Recon plane and had other uses. They sent me pics and this info. This would indicate that air crews would know harnesses and chutes but may never have jumped. Makes me think of a life preserver drill you’d do on a ship, but may not have gone overboard. 
 

“The aircrew would wear parachute harnesses but the QAC chest packs were stowed in the cabin. In the SNB-5P/RC-45J they stowed quick attach chest pack parachutes on the back of each of the forward cabin seats on bungees and hooks and the aft seat ‘chute was stowed under the seat on the floor with similar bungees and hooks as can be seen in the photo. The pilots stowed their QAC chest packs on a shelf right across from the entry door. The door could be jettisoned to bail out.”

WW2.. multiple chutes means either not all..

[FLYJACK 711]

The outlier is the few combat Halo jumps in Laos,, both front and back chutes... first one in late 1970, third June 1971. If Cooper knew about those, it may have been his inspiration.

https://www.coffeeordie.com/macv-sog-halo

Look how many guys have a right side pull..

 

 

 

[CooperNWO305 151]

Were there left and right side pulls? At first thought you’d think a lefty would want a left pull, but thinking that made me think of packing gear in the Army, on yourself and on a vehicle (tank). Everyone had to be the same should someone else need to get to the gear quickly, specifically the first aid kit. I remember skydiving instructors having to pull jumper’s ripcords, and my guess is those always had to be in the same place for safety. One of the more experienced skydivers might be able to comment on whether the handle location was often changed. 

[olemisscub 510]

30 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Were there left and right side pulls? At first thought you’d think a lefty would want a left pull

When you say left pull do you mean that it's on the right side of your body and you pull toward the left?

[CooperNWO305 151]

21 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

When you say left pull do you mean that it's on the right side of your body and you pull toward the left?

Most things are made with righties in mind. Parachutes too I’m guessing. Would a left handed person want to modify a rig? Or would rig modifications just be made to make things easier and not consider if the person was left or right handed. As I remember, Cossey claimed he modified a rig. Or someone said it. 

[olemisscub 510]

3 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Most things are made with righties in mind. Parachutes too I’m guessing. Would a left handed person want to modify a rig? Or would rig modifications just be made to make things easier and not consider if the person was left or right handed. As I remember, Cossey claimed he modified a rig. Or someone said it. 

I’m a lefty and because we live in such a right handed world we are pretty ambidextrous. I wouldn’t want anything modified for me. I’d just learn to deal with it the way that it was designed for everyone else.

[FLYJACK 711]

For bailout backs standard location is the left side.. these guys might have gear or equipment that makes the right side better..  

5 HALO jumps late 1970 to Oct 1971..

https://sogsite.com/halo-jumps/

Edited December 18, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

random trivia, but I'm pretty sure Braden was one of the "test jumpers" when they first came up with HALO.

Edited December 18, 2022 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 711]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

random trivia, but I'm pretty sure Braden was one of the "test jumpers" when they first came up with HALO.

Halo started in the late 50's..

but, that is why he became a Cooper suspect.. his Vietnam jump experience.

[Robert99 50]

44 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Halo started in the late 50's..

but, that is why he became a Cooper suspect.. his Vietnam jump experience.

I personally saw Army personnel doing HALO jumps in the 1963-1965 time frame.  Also, I saw Navy QAC emergency parachutes on board Navy aircraft in the early 1950s.

[olemisscub 510]

43 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I personally saw Army personnel doing HALO jumps in the 1963-1965 time frame.  Also, I saw Navy QAC emergency parachutes on board Navy aircraft in the early 1950s.

Braden became a member of the Golden Arrows in early 1960 (if my facts are right), so I'm pretty sure what I've read regarding him participating in the early HALO trials was correct. 

[georger 244]

50 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I personally saw Army personnel doing HALO jumps in the 1963-1965 time frame.  Also, I saw Navy QAC emergency parachutes on board Navy aircraft in the early 1950s.

Marvelous. You must have had a good time noting events you now report are germane to the DB Cooper case ? 377 reports experiments with radios that may be germane to the Cooper case. JT reports he dropped  ping pong balls in the Washougal and they all flowed to guess where - Tina Bar! Dr Edwards reports Fermi etal developed statistical prediction models developed at the Univ of Chicago which might be germane to the Cooper case. And TK's SEM is broke so the TiSb particle cannot be confirmed as being an alloy while NickyB says it is anyway. TK also reports that the Cooper money was "buried" in the Spring.

The 'boing' effect may be key to the Cooper case.  https://www.google.com/search?q=the+sound+boing+boing+boing&ei=_ISfY9n2ENCmptQP0-6diAE&ved=0ahUKEwjZ5MmXjYT8AhVQk4kEHVN3BxEQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=the+sound+boing+boing+boing&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIFCAAQogQyBQgAEKIEMgUIABCiBDIFCAAQogQ6CggAEEcQ1gQQsAM6BwgAELADEEM6DwguENQCEMgDELADEEMYAToMCC4QyAMQsAMQQxgBOgcIABCABBANOgoILhCABBDUAhANOgcILhCABBANOggIABAFEAcQHjoFCAAQhgM6CgghEMMEEAoQoAE6BAghEApKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQlyZYzzZglTpoAXABeACAAV-IAZwGkgECMTCYAQCgAQHIAQzAAQHaAQQIARgI&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:cd0535bb,vid:h-tyN6nZqYk

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

Totally random, but I asked Carr what these random initials are that you see on 302's and he said they are the initials of the secretaries/clerks who typed up the report. 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 510]

CooperCon is moving permanently to Seattle starting 2023. Ulis announced it this morning. That's a wise move IMO. 

[georger 244]

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 20, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the tie

" I am compelled to agree with my correspondent: that the tie does not tell us anything about the hijacker’s identity. "

"We do not know whether the FBI Laboratory’s term “more than one” meant exactly three, as per Agent Gutt, or more than three. If, for example, there were four distinct DNA samples on the tie, the maximum chance of a link to the hijacker’s history is reduced to 25 percent; if five, then 20 percent, and so on."

And, all of the samples produced 'partials'. ?

A reporter here reported TK saying there were 14 donors?  Which reduces Cooper's contribution to 1.4% !  Which donor of Cooper commentary is correct?  Tom Kaye and his correspondents, or Gutt ? [Gutt is pronounced 'gooot'.]

Poncho Villa's grave could be opened and his dna tested!    

Edited December 20, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

Colorized and enhanced the Count Coopula sketch 

[georger 244]

7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Colorized and enhanced the Count Coopula sketch 

which half is him? left or right side ?   

Edited December 21, 2022 by georger

[dudeman17 340]

On 12/18/2022 at 4:53 AM, JAGdb said:

Dudeman, just a quick follow up to your above thoughts.

With respect to pilot bailout rigs, does this mean that only a pilot or the member of an air crew would have had experience with this type of parachute ?  Is there anything unique or tricky about putting on or using one of these as compared to a different type of chute ?  For example, if your only experience was as a paratrooper/static line jumper, would you be able to look at this and put it on with ease ? If you were preparing for this hijacking at one of these sky diving facilities like Lake Elsinore etc, would you have ever been presented with this type of chute ?

Tina says that he seemed to have put it on without any issue, like he had done it or seen it before.  He also rejected the instructions -- so can we read anything into this ?  Or is a parachute just a parachute, self explanatory and no big deal to put it on D-Rings not withstanding?  

Also, can we deduce that he was expecting a rig with D-Rings, otherwise he wouldn't have asked for "front' reserves. So if he had military experience, what type of rig would he have expected ? (I presume that the static line chutes had D-Rings correct ?)  Thanks !

Parachutes are pretty basic, and especially in those days when they were all round canopies, they were all fairly similar. So anyone who was familiar with any type should easily be able to figure out any of them. Back chute harnesses are all about the same, so if you know how to put one on then you do. A few of them had slightly different chest strap attachments, but nothing that should befuddle anyone. Anyone making an intentional jump, sport or paratrooper, would have a back main with D-rings for a front reserve. A military pilot or crewman, or a sport aerobatic flyer (such as Hayden) does not intend to jump, so the back bailout rig they would use is a reserve, so they don't have D-rings. A sport jumper at somewhere like Elsinore would not use a bailout rig, but they would see them being worn by either the pilots or people just taking observer rides (and landing with the airplane).

It sounds to me like he was asking for two rigs, mains and reserves. However, Flyjack presents other possibilities...

[dudeman17 340]

On 12/18/2022 at 7:06 AM, FLYJACK said:

I found in my research that aircrew's used either front or back bailout rigs and that terminology was used from WW2 on.. they didn't seem to use both..  this suggests Cooper may have expected 4 independent rigs with harnesses, not just two sets. McNalley got and used a front chute with a harness.

Did any of the front bailout rigs you found have integrated harnesses, permanently attached to the container, or were they all independent harnesses to which one would attach the separate container, like CooperNWO305 and I have described?

[georger 244]

TK's original analysis of the tie from his orig website:

Methods

There are three possible avenues where the tie could have come to rest on seat 18E. We will examine each in detail and give reasons for including or dismissing them from the analysis.

1. The tie belonged to a passenger or worker on one of the previous flights.

A tie remaining on a seat from a previous flight would require the cleaning crew to miss it between flights. The flight attendants would also have missed it. Lastly Cooper would not only not seen it, but sat down on the knot with the protruding clip, and not feel it for the entire flight. The odds of all three, the cleaning crew, the attendants and Cooper missing the tie, is thought to be incredibly high and therefore this is probability is not included here. 

2. The tie belonged to someone else on the plane.

This is a viable possibility and needs to be included in the analysis. The odds increase against this being true because Cooper sat alone at the back of the plane. The passengers sitting in the three rows in front of Cooper were allowed to move further toward the front of the plane. There is testimony that some people went aft to go to the bathroom so he was not completely alone there through the entire flight. For this analysis we count all 36 passengers on the plane as male, minus the number of men wearing ties and females photographed leaving the plane.

3. The tie belonged to Cooper.

This seems to be the most obvious conclusion, but the purpose of this analysis is to determine if any of the other passengers had a high probability of leaving a tie.

In order for the tie to come to rest on the plane from some unknown passenger, a series of steps must take place as outlined below.

1. The passenger had a tie to remove.
2. The passenger forgot the tie on the plane.
3. The passenger left the tie on Cooper's seat.

Additionally the unknown passenger had the following characteristics.

4. He smoked.
5. He wore a black tie.

For each of these five attributes we need to assign a probability for them being true. In some cases a probability could be assigned based on actual data, and others were based on reasonable assumptions. The odds attributed to each are outlined below.

1. Number of passengers potentially leaving a tie on Coopers flight including Cooper = 20 (36 total, 6 women on passenger list plus 10 men wearing ties when they exited the plane from 1971 video.
2. Forgetting the tie on the plane = 15% (best estimate)
3. Leaving the tie on Coopers seat = 5% (best estimate)
4. Smoker = 44% (percentage of males who smoked in 1970 [1])
5. Passengers wearing a black tie = 35% (best estimate)

A complete discussion of the math used to combine these probabilities is beyond the scope of this paper, but the Excel spreadsheet can be downloaded here.

Discussion

It would seem obvious that Cooper left his tie on his seat, but we must ask the question, how likely is it that any other passenger could have left the tie?  Based on the probabilities given above, the chance a passenger on this flight that is a smoker with a black tie that would forget his tie on Cooper's seat is estimated to be 2%. Conversely, this puts the probability of the tie belonging to Cooper at 98%.  This is better than a two sigma threshold which means that the value is statistically relevant if the probabilities are reasonable.

Conclusions

This analysis allows for a reasonable assumption that the tie belonged to Cooper. For purposes of discussion, the term "Cooper's tie" is therefore used throughout this research.

Special thanks to Robert Crawford for this analysis.

References

1. Surveillance for Selected Tobacco-Use Behaviors -- United States, 1900-1994. Center for Disease Control, 1994, Link

*  The tie particles emerged later and are not mentioned in the above analysis.

Edited December 21, 2022 by georger

[dudeman17 340]

On 12/18/2022 at 7:29 AM, FLYJACK said:

McChord would have had static rigs and bailout rigs only?? If so, he expected bailout rigs.

His parachute demand was important, I can't see somebody obfuscating terminology and taking the risk of getting the wrong equipment.

This is interesting thought, and would depend on Cooper's experience with parachutes. If he had sport or paratroop experience, I would think that he would want a main, because they have forward drive and controllability, giving him better control of a landing area. But if he was a crewman and more familiar with bailout rigs, he might see them as having more assured opening reliability, being rigger-packed reserves.

[dudeman17 340]

On 12/18/2022 at 9:30 AM, FLYJACK said:

The outlier is the few combat Halo jumps in Laos,, both front and back chutes...

Intentional jumps, therefore mains and reserves.

-------

On 12/18/2022 at 9:30 AM, FLYJACK said:

Look how many guys have a right side pull..

 

On 12/18/2022 at 9:38 AM, CooperNWO305 said:

Were there left and right side pulls?

The standard has always been that main chute ripcords were on the right, to be pulled with the right hand. Front reserves, the ripcord was usually on the right side as well, but some had the ripcord on the top, the idea being that you could get at it with either hand. Bailout rigs, the ripcord has always been on the left side, you could do a normal type pull with the left hand or a cross-pull with the right hand.

On piggyback gear (main and reserve both on the back), main ripcord on the right, reserve ripcord on the left.

Something interesting with the picture below: You can see that some of them have the normal type ripcord handle on the right, while some of them have that kind of knobby looking handle coming over the left shoulder. That is also the main ripcord. That handle was known as a 'blast handle'. I remember seeing some of those, but on the right in the normal position. Those handles were a problem. They clipped onto the end of the ripcord housing. If you pulled it kind of off to the side and not directly off of the housing, they sometimes didn't want to come off the housing, and several people struggled with them until impact. My guess is that these here were mounted on the left and a right-handed cross-pull would get them more straightly off of the housing. They were eventually banned.

 

[dudeman17 340]

On 12/18/2022 at 8:13 AM, CooperNWO305 said:

I talked to some Navy guys of the era about a plane named the Twin Beech. Beechcraft.

If you've seen the movie Ford vs Ferrari, the plane that Matt Damon as Carroll Shelby does that buzz job in is a Twin Beech. That airplane is owned by the same guy that owned the DC-3 that was in the James Bond movie Quantum of Solace. In years past, both of those planes were regular jump planes at Elsinore and Perris. I've got God knows how many jumps out of them. Here they are buzzing Elsinore.

Ain't nuthin' like a radial...

 

 

 

 

[georger 244]

4 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

This is interesting thought, and would depend on Cooper's experience with parachutes. If he had sport or paratroop experience, I would think that he would want a main, because they have forward drive and controllability, giving him better control of a landing area. But if he was a crewman and more familiar with bailout rigs, he might see them as having more assured opening reliability, being rigger-packed reserves.

These thoughts are interesting but since Cooper did not specify or explain anything chute wise, and there was no long winded discussion, he made do with what he was given and he went ahead and jumped. The crew could have played dumb and told Cooper they didnt know what he wanted! - didnt know what to tell people. But that didnt happened either. They took Cooper's words as given, got chutes, delivered chutes, .... he made do.

We have been at this for years speculating endlessly! Cooper was only at it for several hours and gone! There weren't endless iterations from Cooper. He got chutes, made do, and jumped.  

Edited December 21, 2022 by georger