DB Cooper

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes,, Cooper had acquired aviation knowledge/experience somewhere, not necessarily as a pilot but most likely in the military..

The FBI compared whatever prints they had with prints of specific suspects, but did the FBI do any other print searches, with airlines files, military files, Boeing employee files, etc ?  I dont recall seeing any 302 that confirms more general or company non-suspect print comparisons or searches ??? 

Edited January 17, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 50]

1 hour ago, georger said:

The FBI compared whatever prints they had with prints of specific suspects, but did the FBI do any other print searches, with airlines files, military files, Boeing employee files, etc ?  I dont recall seeing any 302 that confirms more general or company non-suspect print comparisons or searches ??? 

I believe that there have been documents posted here from Boeing that listed the personnel that were involved in their company evaluation of the flight characteristics with the stairs down and that all of those people had been cleared.

I don't remember exactly when the FBI fingerprint files were digitized but it was probably in the 1990s.  NCIS can take a single partial print of one digit and obtain the fellows life history in about 5 seconds flat but they don't have to prove anything in court.

[Coopericane 44]

On 1/15/2023 at 7:30 PM, olemisscub said:

I compiled all of the 302's mentioning some of the more notable suspects (who aren't redacted) and put them all in one place. So, for example, every 302 mentioning Kenny is in a Kenny-specific PDF. 

norjak.org/suspects

Very nice... just noticed that Catalano's complexion is confirmed as "dark" in those docs you posted... he also had unspecified military experience (paratrooper training, just maybe?). Seems a little scrawny for Cooper at 155 pounds though, and 37 might still be too young...

Anyone able to figure out anything else new about him? I haven't found much, other than a few lawsuits mentioning him... looks like he even filed one himself. He did NOT like TWA, that much I can say for sure, lol.

[olemisscub 510]

14 hours ago, Coopericane said:

Very nice... just noticed that Catalano's complexion is confirmed as "dark" in those docs you posted... he also had unspecified military experience (paratrooper training, just maybe?). Seems a little scrawny for Cooper at 155 pounds though, and 37 might still be too young...

Anyone able to figure out anything else new about him? I haven't found much, other than a few lawsuits mentioning him... looks like he even filed one himself. He did NOT like TWA, that much I can say for sure, lol.

Not a lot of meet on that bone. Makes me wonder why they chose him for DNA. Langseth? Sure. 

[DWeber 2]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Not a lot of meet on that bone. Makes me wonder why they chose him for DNA. Langseth? Sure. 

If I recall correctly Catalano was referred by the LA division but not sure what information they had. The rebel pilot angle is interesting but doesn’t seem like Catalano was ever interviewed. 

[Coopericane 44]

3 hours ago, DWeber said:

If I recall correctly Catalano was referred by the LA division but not sure what information they had. The rebel pilot angle is interesting but doesn’t seem like Catalano was ever interviewed. 

They seem to have kept him close to their chest despite being aware of him for a long while. I wonder why. It's possible he never even knew he himself was a suspect.

[olemisscub 510]

2 hours ago, Coopericane said:

They seem to have kept him close to their chest despite being aware of him for a long while. I wonder why. It's possible he never even knew he himself was a suspect.

his FBI files confirms this.

[DWeber 2]

8 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

his FBI files confirms this.

So odd. Referred by the LA division in 72, one witness says he bears a strong resemblance to Cooper, he’s described as a rebel pilot and the FBI sat on this for 30 years then decided to try and get DNA? 
 

 

[olemisscub 510]

24 minutes ago, DWeber said:

So odd. Referred by the LA division in 72, one witness says he bears a strong resemblance to Cooper, he’s described as a rebel pilot and the FBI sat on this for 30 years then decided to try and get DNA? 
 

 

witness Robert Gregory if we're being precise. 

[Coopericane 44]

5 hours ago, DWeber said:

So odd. Referred by the LA division in 72, one witness says he bears a strong resemblance to Cooper, he’s described as a rebel pilot and the FBI sat on this for 30 years then decided to try and get DNA? 
 

 

It is very odd indeed to me to sit on what seemed like a relatively compelling suspect for so long. I believe there was some contention with a few cops who knew him whether or not he actually resembled the sketch, which led to him being erroneously eliminated at some point. I wonder if because of this, his files could have gotten shuffled around and misplaced, only to be drawn back to the FBI's attention decades later during a lookover of the case? That's pure speculation on my part, though I can't think of another reason to play coy with such a seemingly good lead.

Hopefully, some future documents will shed some more light here... especially on their reinvestigation into him in 2004.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Coopericane

[olemisscub 510]

17 hours ago, Coopericane said:

It is very odd indeed to me to sit on what seemed like a relatively compelling suspect for so long. I believe there was some contention with a few cops who knew him whether or not he actually resembled the sketch, which led to him being erroneously eliminated at some point. I wonder if because of this, his files could have gotten shuffled around and misplaced, only to be drawn back to the FBI's attention decades later during a lookover of the case? That's pure speculation on my part, though I can't think of another reason to play coy with such a seemingly good lead.

So we had made a faulty assumption that the Egg Harbor guy from the DNA 302 was the same Egg Harbor guy mentioned in those previous 302's, but we were wrong. Different guy. This guy worked for Japan Airlines and was old enough to have served in the "U.S. Air Corps" (a WWII guy). So it's not Catalano. 

[Andrade1812 51]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

So we had made a faulty assumption that the Egg Harbor guy from the DNA 302 was the same Egg Harbor guy mentioned in those previous 302's, but we were wrong. Different guy. This guy worked for Japan Airlines and was old enough to have served in the "U.S. Air Corps" (a WWII guy). So it's not Catalano. 

What?

Then we still don't know who EHS is?

 

And where did Catalano come from?

Edited January 20, 2023 by Andrade1812

[Coopericane 44]

 

1 hour ago, Andrade1812 said:

What?

Then we still don't know who EHS is?

 

And where did Catalano come from?

I think he's saying that the documents about the guy John Anderson was looking into is someone else. Another suspect from Egg Harbor, older and working at a different airline. Which would make sense to me considering the discrepancy between Catalano being a good match for the sketch and this other guy apparently not being so. Catalano is the unresolved Egg Harbor suspect. His name is unredacted in the newest FBI files.

[olemisscub 510]

46 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

 

I think he's saying that the documents about the guy John Anderson was looking into is someone else. Another suspect from Egg Harbor, older and working at a different airline. Which would make sense to me considering the discrepancy between Catalano being a good match for the sketch and this other guy apparently not being so. Catalano is the unresolved Egg Harbor suspect. His name is unredacted in the newest FBI files.

100% correct. 

[DWeber 2]

11 hours ago, olemisscub said:

100% correct. 

Interesting. Nice find. So it seems like Catalano may have been eliminated initially due to this mix up? Hopefully there is more on him in future releases. 

[FLYJACK 711]

1 hour ago, DWeber said:

Interesting. Nice find. So it seems like Catalano may have been eliminated initially due to this mix up? Hopefully there is more on him in future releases. 

Catalano was first suggested as a suspect by Los Angeles in 1972 from Eugene, later he lived in Egg Harbor.. then another guy popped up around 1975 with a connection to Egg Harbor and was eliminated.

Then Catalano was suggested for DNA testing in 2004..

The mix up wasn't the FBI,, it was the Cooper community

We need to look back in the 302's for a suspect from Eugene suggested by Los Angeles before June 1972..  that was Catalano.

Edited January 20, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

So I decided to go down a rabbit hole a few days ago because someone on the Facebook group asked about "ransom packs", so I just began doing a deep dive into what was actually mentioned in the 302's regarding the ransom money. While compiling all the 302's regarding Seattle-First National Bank and the money, I noticed the complete absence of a term: "rubber bands" or "bundled" occurring before Tena Bar. You'll see Himmelsbach and others quoted in articles post-Tena Bar talking about how they bundled the money together with rubber bands to make it look hastily gathered. However, we have an issue here...there's no evidence the FBI ever handled the money. Let's follow the money via the 302's:

- We have a detective at Seattle PD saying that around 4:45 he was informed of an extortion in progress and that he took an unmarked police car to Sea-First and picked up bank officials with the money. He then drove to the airport, getting there around 5. He says that these bank officials then handed the money off at the NWA office to (presumably) Al Lee. 

- We have a 302 that is seemingly coming from Agent Milnes himself, describing being in the NWA office when a leather satchel was brought into the office, a seal was broken, and the money bag was removed. Milnes says he inspected the bag and determined that it did have currency in it. He makes no mention of handling the money whatsoever. He then says the money was handed to Al Lee. 

We of course know that Al Lee pretty promptly met the plane on the runway pretty much immediately after it taxied to its location. So when was the FBI doing this "bundling" with rubber bands to give the appearance that the money was hastily gathered?? Let's also remember that Nyrop specifically asked law enforcement to stay out of the money exchange. This was just between his airline and the hijacker. 

The next thing: the lack of mention of rubber bands. There is no mention of rubber bands but we DO have is mention of "bank bands" i.e. currency straps. We have a 302 from a bank official (the manager of Sea-First, presumably) stating that the money was made up of packets of 100 $20 bills banded together with Sea-First or Fed Reserve bank bands. We also have Tina describing Cooper as having "small packages" that had "bank type bands". No mention of bundles or rubber bands anywhere. Furthermore, Nicky Broughton recently came across Al Lee's secretary stating online that Cooper's money bag was on her desk. Nicky reached out and asked if she remembered any rubber bands on the money and she said she did not.

So what gives? Obviously absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so perhaps the bank officials or Tina just didn't ever comment on the rubber bands. However, I do think it is something to look into. If someone has PRE-Tena Bar evidence that there were rubber bands on the money, please by all means let us know.

RansomPack.pdf

[FLYJACK 711]

Pro tip...

The rubber bands were holding the individual packets together in a single bundle.

The money was given to Cooper in strapped (bank banded) 100's which were then rubber banded into random sized bundles..

Ergo,, the TBAR money most likely landed as one single bundle of several packets of 100 bills as it went to Cooper..

[olemisscub 510]

13 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Pro tip...

The rubber bands were holding the individual packets together in a single bundle.

The money was given to Cooper in strapped (bank banded) 100's which were then rubber banded into random sized bundles..

Ergo,, the TBAR money most likely landed as one single bundle of several packets of 100 bills as it went to Cooper..

Thanks for the pro-tip but I'm already aware of what "bundles" are. My assumption has always been that the money given Cooper looked something like below, which is from an experiment I did the other day with 300 bills. There is a POST-Tena Bar statement from an FBI official saying that they bundled them to make it appear "hastily gathered." But who did this and when? When did they have time to do this? The bank officials don't mention doing this. Milnes makes no mention of this. He just says he looked in the bag to ensure it had currency. Tina makes no mention of bundled packages, just that there were small packages held together by bank bands i.e. the individual packets. Al Lee's secretary said there were no rubber banded packs. 

I just want PRE-Tena Bar evidence of the bundling. Again, my assumption was and STILL is that the money on Tena Bar was discovered in the same assembly as it was given to Cooper that day. However, I'd still like to see some pre-Tena Bar evidence of bundling or rubber banding. 

[FLYJACK 711]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

So I decided to go down a rabbit hole a few days ago because someone on the Facebook group asked about "ransom packs", so I just began doing a deep dive into what was actually mentioned in the 302's regarding the ransom money. While compiling all the 302's regarding Seattle-First National Bank and the money, I noticed the complete absence of a term: "rubber bands" or "bundled" occurring before Tena Bar. You'll see Himmelsbach and others quoted in articles post-Tena Bar talking about how they bundled the money together with rubber bands to make it look hastily gathered. However, we have an issue here...there's no evidence the FBI ever handled the money. Let's follow the money via the 302's:

- We have a detective at Seattle PD saying that around 4:45 he was informed of an extortion in progress and that he took an unmarked police car to Sea-First and picked up bank officials with the money. He then drove to the airport, getting there around 5. He says that these bank officials then handed the money off at the NWA office to (presumably) Al Lee. 

- We have a 302 that is seemingly coming from Agent Milnes himself, describing being in the NWA office when a leather satchel was brought into the office, a seal was broken, and the money bag was removed. Milnes says he inspected the bag and determined that it did have currency in it. He makes no mention of handling the money whatsoever. He then says the money was handed to Al Lee. 

We of course know that Al Lee pretty promptly met the plane on the runway pretty much immediately after it taxied to its location. So when was the FBI doing this "bundling" with rubber bands to give the appearance that the money was hastily gathered?? Let's also remember that Nyrop specifically asked law enforcement to stay out of the money exchange. This was just between his airline and the hijacker. 

The next thing: the lack of mention of rubber bands. There is no mention of rubber bands but we DO have is mention of "bank bands" i.e. currency straps. We have a 302 from a bank official (the manager of Sea-First, presumably) stating that the money was made up of packets of 100 $20 bills banded together with Sea-First or Fed Reserve bank bands. We also have Tina describing Cooper as having "small packages" that had "bank type bands". No mention of bundles or rubber bands anywhere. Furthermore, Nicky Broughton recently came across Al Lee's secretary stating online that Cooper's money bag was on her desk. Nicky reached out and asked if she remembered any rubber bands on the money and she said she did not.

So what gives? Obviously absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so perhaps the bank officials or Tina just didn't ever comment on the rubber bands. However, I do think it is something to look into. If someone has PRE-Tena Bar evidence that there were rubber bands on the money, please by all means let us know.

RansomPack.pdf 901.82 kB · 0 downloads

We have gone over this ad nauseam..

 

The evidence does not explicitly describe the packaging of the money but using basic logic we can figure it out.

The 302 evidence shows bank bands for the packets of 100. 

There were rubber band frags found on the money. (If it didn't go to Cooper like that somebody would have to have added them, not likely)

The FBI stated that money was found in the same order and packaging as it was given to Cooper.

The FBI stated the money was from one bundle.

The FBI stated that the money was made into random sized bundles, the packets of 100's were not random sized (it makes no sense that each packet would be randomized by count) so the bundles made random had to be the groups of packets, those are only contained by rubber bands.

There is no other possibility. This is confirmed by Himmelsbach statement in that video.

Packet's were strapped with bank bands and those packets were rubber banded into random sized bundles. That is how the money went to Cooper.

 

So, if the money arrived on TBAR as one rubber banded bundle of several packets that opens up the means of arrival..

The notion that the three packets arrived separately and be together means they were human buried is based on a false premise.

 

 

[olemisscub 510]

I know what the bloody FBI said POST-HOC money find. I know what the FBI told the press. I know what Carr said on the DZ. I know what Himmy and Tosaw said. I've read the exact same books and 302's you have. I'm asking for PRE-Tena Bar evidence so we can put this to bed. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 711]

Just now, olemisscub said:

Thanks for the pro-tip but I'm already aware of what "bundles" are. My assumption has always been that the money given Cooper looked something like below, which is from an experiment I did the other day with 300 bills. There is a POST-Tena Bar statement from an FBI official saying that they bundled them to make it appear "hastily gathered." But who did this and when? When did they have time to do this? The bank officials don't mention doing this. Milnes makes no mention of this. He just says he looked in the bag to ensure it had currency. Tina makes no mention of bundled packages, just that there were small packages held together by bank bands i.e. the individual packets. Al Lee's secretary said there were no rubber banded packs. 

I just want PRE-Tena Bar evidence of the bundling. Again, my assumption was and STILL is that the money on Tena Bar was discovered in the same assembly as it was given to Cooper that day. However, I'd still like to see some pre-Tena Bar evidence of bundling or rubber banding. 

I posted that before I saw your post but use of the term bundles has been conflated by most people in the Cooper case including Larry Carr,, people have confused a packet of 100 bills with a group of packets, a bundle..

That conflation is the source of most of the problems..

Carr screwed everything up when he claimed the bundles were randomized and he thought it was the individual packets..

IMO, that image is how the money went to Cooper and landed on TBAR..

The evidence is by inference, the "bundles" were made random,, we know that wasn't the packets of 100. So, it could only have been the group of packets which could only be secured by rubber bands.

[FLYJACK 711]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I know what the bloody FBI said POST-HOC money find. I know what the FBI told the press. I know what Carr said on the DZ. I know what Himmy and Tosaw said. I've read the exact same books and 302's you have. I'm asking for PRE-Tena Bar evidence so we can put this to bed. 

I said we don't have explicit evidence probably because the FBI was holding that back..

This is simple logic,, if they randomized the bundles and the individual packets were not randomized then they were rubber banded into bundles.

Why is this so hard..

[olemisscub 510]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The evidence is by inference, the "bundles" were made random,, we know that wasn't the packets of 100. So, it could only have been the group of packets which could only be secured by rubber bands.

I'm not following. You're saying the bundles were random. I'm not seeing anything pre-Tena Bar mentioning bundles or bundling of the cash. The only actual evidence is "packets" of 100 bills held together with bank bands. Whether these WERE bundled, we can assume so given the TB find. However, there's nothing at all about bundling pre-Tena Bar in the actual evidence. 

[olemisscub 510]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I said we don't have explicit evidence probably because the FBI was holding that back..

Holding it back from whom? Themselves? We have the 302's now.