DB Cooper

[olemisscub 510]

Vortexy name on that chute. 

[Robert99 50]

6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Are you suggesting Cossey lied on BOTH of the packing cards? For what purpose? The packing card that says 24 foot canopy was not a typo in the FBI Files. Two different people, a month apart, read that card and stated the exact same thing in their report.

First, I wouldn't believe anything Cossey said even with corroboration.

Secondly, see the comment above.

[Robert99 50]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Hayden chute card, 26' canopy

You can't compare a seat chute..

There is ZERO evidence Hayden's chute at WSHM is a 28'.. NONE

It is a P2,, it says so on it, they are 24 ft containers,, they were early 1940's and originally had silk chutes.

It is stuffed with a 26' chute, visually and per the packing card.... making it look slightly bigger.

Perspective,, it is small, a Pioneer 24' P2 stuffed with a 26'..

 

This is a 1940 Pioneer P1-B-24 (label) a 24' container that preceded Hayden's updated early 40's Pioneer P2... same size slightly updated design..

 

This is also a 24' 

FlyJack, why don't you copy Sluggo's pictures of the front and back of a 100 percent genuine NB-6 rig to this site and compare the sizes of the various rigs.  Sluggo's NB-6 pictures show a 26-foot conical canopy in that rig.

Also, I owned and flew an NB-6 rig with a 26-foot conical canopy for several years and sold it along with an aircraft just about two or three months before the Cooper hijacking.

My offer about the rig and repacking still stands.  Pictures of the shroud line attachments to the canopy skirt and how the shroud lines attach to the risers are extremely important.

[FLYJACK 700]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, why don't you copy Sluggo's pictures of the front and back of a 100 percent genuine NB-6 rig to this site and compare the sizes of the various rigs.  Sluggo's NB-6 pictures show a 26-foot conical canopy in that rig.

Also, I owned and flew an NB-6 rig with a 26-foot conical canopy for several years and sold it along with an aircraft just about two or three months before the Cooper hijacking.

My offer about the rig and repacking still stands.  Pictures of the shroud line attachments to the canopy skirt and how the shroud lines attach to the risers are extremely important.

Why don't you admit you have no evidence.

The chute at the museum is not an NB6..it is not a 28' canopy..  it is a Pioneer P2-B-24, a 24' container with a 26' canopy stuffed in it.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

Want to share this with everyone. I purchased an original printing of this photo and scanned it. So this is probably the clearest version of this we're going to get unless the negative is obtained. You can even see Al Lee (presumably) standing by the Dodge Dart. 

[olemisscub 510]

I've read discussion about there being 9 loci among the DNA. It's my understanding that this doesn't tell us how many donors there were. 9 loci could all come from the same person, right? But we know that there are multiple partial profiles among the DNA. Might three be the answer to how many? This is from 2010 when Marla's cousin (LD's daughter) gave a sample for testing. 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by olemisscub

[georger 244]

9 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I've read discussion about there being 9 loci among the DNA. It's my understanding that this doesn't tell us how many donors there were. 9 loci could all come from the same person, right? But we know that there are multiple partial profiles among the DNA. Might three be the answer to how many? This is from 2010 when Marla's cousin (LD's daughter) gave a sample for testing. 

 

What do you mean by: ''Ive read discussion about there being 9 loci among the DNA.' 

Are you trying to say -- the FBI Lab identified 9 of 13 loci.     ???

Whatever you mean, why would 'discussion' be a source for facts about the FBI Cooper case dna tests?  Who or what is the source you are referring to? Who is discussing this that you trust as a reliable source ?

Edited July 21, 2023 by georger

[JAGdb 88]

11 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I've read discussion about there being 9 loci among the DNA. It's my understanding that this doesn't tell us how many donors there were. 9 loci could all come from the same person, right? But we know that there are multiple partial profiles among the DNA. Might three be the answer to how many? This is from 2010 when Marla's cousin (LD's daughter) gave a sample for testing. 

 

Bruce Smith has stated that he was told that the FBI PIO Ayn Dietrich-Williams announced that there were 3 separate male DNA samples retrieved from the tie clasp.

I am not sure if this means that each sample is from a different male individual or if each sample is simply a different chromosome of a single individual.  Perhaps the former is what is being implied.

But we all know that Tom Kaye is DB Cooper based on his DNA testing...

[olemisscub 510]

2 hours ago, georger said:

What do you mean by: ''Ive read discussion about there being 9 loci among the DNA.' 

Are you trying to say -- the FBI Lab identified 9 of 13 loci.     ???

Whatever you mean, why would 'discussion' be a source for facts about the FBI Cooper case dna tests?  Who or what is the source you are referring to? Who is discussing this that you trust as a reliable source ?

The “discussion” I’m referring to is what I’ve read from YOU.

 

[olemisscub 510]

3 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Bruce Smith has stated that he was told that the FBI PIO Ayn Dietrich-Williams announced that there were 3 separate male DNA samples retrieved from the tie clasp.

And the likelihood of any of it being Cooper's DNA is probably low. That tie was picked up by agents in Reno, taken to a Penney's, sent to the Crime Lab, sent back to Vegas, then sent again to Crime Lab in 72, sent back to Vegas, then sent to LA in 74, then sent back to Vegas, then sent to Seattle in the 90's, then sent to Crime Lab in 2001, sent back to Seattle, etc. 

It has seen some miles and numerous hands since NORJAK. 

[CooperNWO305 151]

Jonbenet Ramsey DNA info just for visual reference. I was surprised they released this  

Edited July 21, 2023 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 700]

Better side by side images,,

1940 Pioneer P1-B24, 24' container on the right..

Hayden's chute left in the plane now at the Washington Museum.. an early 1940's Pioneer P2-B24 a 24' container. This is the update to the P1 with slight changes.. same size, both 24' containers originally had 24' silk chutes.

[FLYJACK 700]

Mixed DNA,,

 

[olemisscub 510]

16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Better side by side images,,

1940 Pioneer P1-B24, 24' container on the right..

Hayden's chute left in the plane now at the Washington Museum.. an early 1940's Pioneer P2-B24 a 24' container. This is the update to the P1 with slight changes.. same size, both 24' containers originally had 24' silk chutes.

Good stuff. I've been attempting to purchase an NB6 and none of them have looked like the museum chute. Guess this is why. 

[olemisscub 510]

So I just looked through my Cossey files and can't find anywhere where Cossey called the museum chute an NB6. Seems like we've been calling it that based on what was written in this evidence report. Cossey only stated that COOPER's chute was an NB6. 

[georger 244]

6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

The “discussion” I’m referring to is what I’ve read from YOU.

 

I have no official information about dna tests done in the Cooper case!  I have no idea how many donors there were. Different people say different things. I dont even know what Carr and others mean by 'partial' because they have never defined it!. The whole subject is pure speculation, so far as I am concerned.

One FBI doc did specify a kit that was used in one report about Lab testing and I commented about that kit, and I speculated about what that kit might have revealed ... but that was all speculation. So far...  various people have reported 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, and 22 donors that were revealed!  I have no idea what is correct. I have no idea how many loci various kits revealed! All I have is the same everyone else has, namely that Carr said the FBI's dna result was a "partial" ... whatever that means.   

Every time anyone posts about what Cooper case genetic info the FBI has, I always wonder what the source of their information is ... just as a matter of habit developed in this socially toxic matter!

Edited July 21, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 700]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

So I just looked through my Cossey files and can't find anywhere where Cossey called the museum chute an NB6. Seems like we've been calling it that based on what was written in this evidence report. Cossey only stated that COOPER's chute was an NB6. 

Yes, Hayden's chute left on the plane was never called a NB6/8.. it has been called a civilian luxury chute, a sport chute and a B-4....

It was only the one Cooper used that was called an NB6/8 by Cossey...

[georger 244]

4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

And the likelihood of any of it being Cooper's DNA is probably low. That tie was picked up by agents in Reno, taken to a Penney's, sent to the Crime Lab, sent back to Vegas, then sent again to Crime Lab in 72, sent back to Vegas, then sent to LA in 74, then sent back to Vegas, then sent to Seattle in the 90's, then sent to Crime Lab in 2001, sent back to Seattle, etc. 

It has seen some miles and numerous hands since NORJAK. 

Has implications not just for dna and potential donors and degradation of dna, , but also for the origin of particles Tom found on the tie. The tie has been all over the place!

Another thought:  proximity to the Nevada Proving Ground .....  In 1950 the AEC considered many sites for U.S. nuclear weapons development and effects testing. They then selected the Las Vegas Bombing and Gunnery Range. On December 18, 1950, President Harry Truman authorized the establishment of a 680 square mile portion of the Range as the Nevada Proving Ground.

Edited July 21, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

25 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

It was only the one Cooper used that was called an NB6/8 by Cossey...

So maybe it was. What's the likelihood that Cossey had TWO of those crummy old packs? 

[FLYJACK 700]

7 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

So maybe it was. What's the likelihood that Cossey had TWO of those crummy old packs? 

Well, Cossey was initially describing his chute.. 

He was told a Pioneer was left behind in the plane and assumed his NB6 was used by Cooper..

Hayden's P2 was bought at a surplus store with the other one,, if the chute Cooper took was a 24' as the card data indicates then it wasn't an NB6/8 as Cossey claimed.

 

 

[olemisscub 510]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Well, Cossey was initially describing his chute.. 

He was told a Pioneer was left behind in the plane and assumed his NB6 was used by Cooper..

Hayden's P2 was bought at a surplus store with the other one,, if the chute Cooper took was a 24' as the card data indicates then it wasn't an NB6/8 as Cossey claimed.

 

I've not found a source confirming that Hayden actually bought anything at a surplus store. Do you have the source for that? Hayden told Bruce he couldn't remember if he got them directly from Cossey or took them to Cossey to pack. Vault files don't help either. Hayden told whomever he spoke with in 1971 that Cossey had "assembled" them. In Cossey's first statement he says Hayden came to him needing two parachutes so he packed two parachutes which were furnished to Hayden. 

[Robert99 50]

49 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I've not found a source confirming that Hayden actually bought anything at a surplus store. Do you have the source for that? Hayden told Bruce he couldn't remember if he got them directly from Cossey or took them to Cossey to pack. Vault files don't help either. Hayden told whomever he spoke with in 1971 that Cossey had "assembled" them. In Cossey's first statement he says Hayden came to him needing two parachutes so he packed two parachutes which were furnished to Hayden. 

Bruce Smith has/had a blurb on his web site related to an interview he had with Hayden and there were several pictures of the parachute that was returned to Hayden in that post.

As I remember Bruce's post, Hayden told him that his two parachutes were "similar", I don't remember him using the word "identical", and were "assembled" for him by Cossey from various parts that Cossey had obtained from skydiving sources, which may have included military surplus stores.

In the 1960s and 1970s, as the skydiving craze started, most of the early parachute rigs were assembled from surplus parts and included 28-foot canopies.  Some of these 28-foot canopies were modified with a 5-TU or 7-TU modification to make them steerable to some degree.  This was the absolute bottom of the line skydiver rig.  And it was dirt cheap.

The rigs described above required a chest mounted reserve that had been packed by an FAA licensed rigger.  The back parachutes could be packed by anyone even if they didn't know what they were doing.

The NB-6 parachutes, with a 26-foot conical canopy, were in great demand because they were quite small when compared with a 28-foot rig when packed.  As a result, they cost several times as much as a 28-foot rig.

The NB-6 rig in Sluggo's pictures is 100% NB-6 and I owned a similar one for several years.  It has a 26-foot conical canopy, an NB-6 harness, an NB-6 container, and an NB-6 pilot chute.

Since getting involved with the Cooper hijacking, I have purchased an NB-6 container in its original shipping plastic bag through E-Bay.  I think it was manufactured sometime in the 1980s.  I have also purchased an NB-6 harness and pilot chute from Ralph Hartley who has/had a skydiving operation just south of Portland.

Does anyone know what type of acrobatic aircraft Hayden owned when he purchased his two parachutes?

ADDENDUM:  FYI, if the rigger's card has a 9-digit ID number, it is his Social Security Number.  A few years ago, I mentioned this to Shutter and I think he went to the SSN Death Index and determined that the rigger in question was still alive.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Robert99

[olemisscub 510]

31 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

 

The NB-6 rig in Sluggo's pictures is 100% NB-6 and I owned a similar one for several years.  It has a 26-foot conical canopy, an NB-6 harness, an NB-6 container, and an NB-6 pilot chute.

 

Not trying to be argumentative, but just trying to understand. Every pic I've come across for NB-6's they have a circular looking seam at the bottom. The museum chute and the chute Fly posted have the identical straight seams. Also, I've never come across an NB-6 online that was a color other than some sort of olive drab type of shade. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 700]

This is getting mixed up..

R99 is correct Hayden told Bruce the chutes were similar not identical in response to the description in the FBI files,, one was described as a civilian luxury type chute and one military... Hayden was inferring they were both military and the description in the FBI description was wrong and not from him. 

The Pioneer back chute that was left behind in the plane by Cooper went back to Hayden then to the Washington Museum is not an NB6, nobody ever claimed it was. It is a Pioneer P2-B-24 container circa 1942, a 24' foot container originally with a 24' silk canopy, later a 26' canopy. This is chute # 226..

The chute container Cooper used was claimed by Cossey to be his NB6.. after being told that a Pioneer was left in the plane, he assumed it was his NB6. There is no evidence it was an NB6. If it is a 24' as some descriptions indicate, it is not an NB6. The fact that both of Hayden's chutes were Pioneers as indicated on the cards proves that Cossey's assumption was wrong..  

Let's be clear,, Cossey claimed one was a Pioneer and one an NB6, when he was told a Pioneer was found he claimed the chute Cooper used was the NB6,, but the two packing cards indicate they were both Pioneers. So, Cossey was incorrect.. IMO, Cossey believed his two back chutes were used from Issaquah..a Pioneer and an NB6. They were not. So, Cossey's claim that Cooper used an NB6 is based on his false assumption. We don't know what the model of chute container that Cooper used. It is very unlikely it was an NB6...

MAKE: Pioneer Parachute Co.

TYPE: Ripstop Conical (24' Steinthal)

SERIAL NO: 60-9707

DATE OF MFR: July, 1960

INSPECTED BY: May 21, 1971 by E J Cossey on  riggers license number 159638

PACKING CARD: listed Brown Engineering Company, Post Office Box 1436, Patterson, California, 95363.

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 50]

7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Not trying to be argumentative, but just trying to understand. Every pic I've come across for NB-6's they have a circular looking seam at the bottom. The museum chute and the chute Fly posted have the identical straight seams. Also, I've never come across an NB-6 online that was a color other than some sort of olive drab type of shade. 

If I understand the question correctly, you are referring to the bottom flap of the container.  There is a similar flap at the top of the container.  These end flaps are connected to the top and bottom cones that are on the side flaps.  The top end flap (or maybe one of the side flaps) will usually have a metallic "guide" for the ripcord to help keep it from getting bent.

In the pictures shown above, the circular seams as well as the straighter ones are on the side flaps.  There will be similar seams and usually cloth "pockets" on the end flaps to help the rigger get the end flaps completely under the side flaps.

This is just the way the containers are built.