DB Cooper

[Robert99 50]

Do you and FlyJack believe everything you read just because it is written down?

[olemisscub 510]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Do you and FlyJack believe everything you read just because it is written down?

Unless I have a legitimate reason to think otherwise, yes. 

[Robert99 50]

14 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Unless I have a legitimate reason to think otherwise, yes. 

Okay.  Now take a look at the NB-6 rig on Sluggo's site which is linked on Shutter's site and elsewhere.  Sluggo's rig is a genuine NB-6 rig throughout with a 26-foot conical canopy, harness, container, and pilot chute.  I also owned an identical NB-6 rig for several years and sold it along with an aircraft just a few months prior to the hijacking.

The main attraction of the NB-6 rig was that it was much smaller than a rig with a 28-foot parachute.  Its small size made it attractive for use in aircraft that had very small cockpits.  The end result was that an NB-6 rig cost at least twice as much as a 28-foot canopy rig.

After taking a look at Sluggo's NB-6 rig and the WSHM rig are you able to detect a substantial difference in their sizes?

[olemisscub 510]

13 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Okay.  Now take a look at the NB-6 rig on Sluggo's site which is linked on Shutter's site and elsewhere.  Sluggo's rig is a genuine NB-6 rig throughout with a 26-foot conical canopy, harness, container, and pilot chute.  I also owned an identical NB-6 rig for several years and sold it along with an aircraft just a few months prior to the hijacking.

The main attraction of the NB-6 rig was that it was much smaller than a rig with a 28-foot parachute.  Its small size made it attractive for use in aircraft that had very small cockpits.  The end result was that an NB-6 rig cost at least twice as much as a 28-foot canopy rig.

After taking a look at Sluggo's NB-6 rig and the WSHM rig are you able to detect a substantial difference in their sizes?

Dude if you can't see the difference in these parachutes packs, then I'm not exactly sure what to tell you. This really isn't complicated. Cooper's chute may have been an NB6, but the MUSEUM CHUTE is NOT. First, you will not find an NB-6 that is tan colored like the WWII packs were. Second, NB models have round shaped folds at the bottom, the WWII ones are straight. Third, NB models have thicker straps going down the back than the WWII ones. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 709]

3 hours ago, Robert99 said:

As been pointed out repeatedly previously, the canopy in the WSHM parachute appears to be too big to be an NB-6 type 26-foot conical canopy.  Unless there is something else packed in that container with the canopy and pilot chute.

"appears"

It is a 24' early 40's P2 container.. so a 26' canopy in a 24' looks more stuffed..

I don't know if a 28' canopy can even fit in a 24' container.

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 151]

What was the total amount of para cord Cooper cut? Do we know if it is like the current para cord that has 5 or 6 smaller pieces of string inside? As I look at the harnesses, I wonder if Cooper may have put the harness on and then tied the reserve to the harness in the front. It seems possible. Then if the main opened he would have landed with both and been able to discard both in the same place. Maybe someday someone will stumble across remnants. 
 

 

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 709]

Ground told crew chutes coming from McChord..

 

 

 

[olemisscub 510]

3 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

 I wonder if Cooper may have put the harness on and then tied the reserve to the harness in the front. It seems possible. 

 

It's plausible, but I think my main issue with that scenario would be that Cooper was seemingly already accoutered for the jump when they took off from Seattle. He may have had some gloves or a beanie or something in his mystery bag that he was able to put on quickly once Tina left, but it seems like he had already done all of his cutting and tying, etc, before they took off. After takeoff it appears that he became preoccupied almost immediately with getting the door down. 

So I think the fact that he appeared ready to jump outside Seattle (without wearing the reserve) is a good indication that he was willing to jump without one. 

However, it appears likely that if he was wanting to jump outside Seattle that once that window had passed he was forced to wait until closer to Portland. So maybe what you're suggesting is what he did in the meantime once he realized he had some time?

[olemisscub 510]

4 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

What was the total amount of para cord Cooper cut? Do we know if it is like the current para cord that has 5 or 6 smaller pieces of string inside? As I look at the harnesses, I wonder if Cooper may have put the harness on and then tied the reserve to the harness in the front. It seems possible. Then if the main opened he would have landed with both and been able to discard both in the same place. Maybe someday someone will stumble across remnants. 
 

Tom said 79.6 feet of cord is missing. 

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by olemisscub

[CooperNWO305 151]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

It's plausible, but I think my main issue with that scenario would be that Cooper was seemingly already accoutered for the jump when they took off from Seattle. He may have had some gloves or a beanie or something in his mystery bag that he was able to put on quickly once Tina left, but it seems like he had already done all of his cutting and tying, etc, before they took off. After takeoff it appears that he became preoccupied almost immediately with getting the door down. 

So I think the fact that he appeared ready to jump outside Seattle (without wearing the reserve) is a good indication that he was willing to jump without one. 

However, it appears likely that if he was wanting to jump outside Seattle that once that window had passed he was forced to wait until closer to Portland. So maybe what you're suggesting is what he did in the meantime once he realized he had some time?

That does make sense given the timeline. Sounds like he may not have time to tie the reserve to himself. I’d just love to see a break in this case as big as the money find was. 

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I’d just love to see a break in this case as big as the money find was. 

Hopefully much, much less confounding though...

[Robert99 50]

On 8/5/2023 at 1:58 PM, olemisscub said:

Dude if you can't see the difference in these parachutes packs, then I'm not exactly sure what to tell you. This really isn't complicated. Cooper's chute may have been an NB6, but the MUSEUM CHUTE is NOT. First, you will not find an NB-6 that is tan colored like the WWII packs were. Second, NB models have round shaped folds at the bottom, the WWII ones are straight. Third, NB models have thicker straps going down the back than the WWII ones. 

I have just taken another look at the NB-6 container and NB-6 harness in my garage.  There is nothing on the harness except the harness webbing and the associated hardware.

Here is the story on the container.  Going from top to bottom, the top metallic cone is on the top flap, the second cone is on one of the side flaps, the third cone is on the pilot chute, and the fourth and bottom cone is on the bottom flap.

The top and bottom flaps are square and not rounded.  The corners of the top and bottom of the container are basically empty and just give the appearance of being rounded.  There are some snaps on the corners that apparently connect to the back pad.

There are other things on the back of the container that relate to connecting the back pad and the harness to the container.  But the shape of the corners is not an item of consequence.

[olemisscub 510]

2 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I have just taken another look at the NB-6 container and NB-6 harness in my garage.  There is nothing on the harness except the harness webbing and the associated hardware.

Good grief just take the L on this one. The Museum chute is NOT an NB-6 nor was it EVER claimed to be an NB-6 by ANYONE. Cooper's chute is the NB-6 in this story...COOPER'S CHUTE. Not that one. 

I swear, I've never in my life encountered such hard headed people as in the Vortex. Why can't people just admit they're wrong sometimes?

[Robert99 50]

On 8/5/2023 at 2:01 PM, FLYJACK said:

"appears"

It is a 24' early 40's P2 container.. so a 26' canopy in a 24' looks more stuffed..

I don't know if a 28' canopy can even fit in a 24' container.

 

It is unlikely that a standard flat 28-foot canopy would fit into a container designed for a 24-foot canopy.  However, a 26-foot conical canopy probably would.

Some skydivers, such as 377, used a 26-foot conical canopy for a reserve, which had to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and I suspect they were able to pack it into the same container as the standard 24-foot military reserve chest pack.

But no one is really going to know what canopy is in the WSHM parachute without opening the pack.

[Robert99 50]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Good grief just take the L on this one. The Museum chute is NOT an NB-6 nor was it EVER claimed to be an NB-6 by ANYONE. Cooper's chute is the NB-6 in this story...COOPER'S CHUTE. Not that one. 

I swear, I've never in my life encountered such hard headed people as in the Vortex. Why can't people just admit they're wrong sometimes?

I know exactly what you mean by that last sentence.  I have encountered quite a few of them here myself.

[FLYJACK 709]

Robert99 has said in the past that the museum chute is NOT an NB-6..

He believes by "appearance" that it is stuffed with a 28' canopy.

However, the container is a P2-24', not a 26' and with a 26' canopy it looks stuffed.

It seems unlikely that a 24' container would have a 28' chute.

 

[FLYJACK 709]

My theory for the dummy chute is that is was suspicious, it was not full and had no riggers seal.. So, Cooper tossed it.

[olemisscub 510]

26 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

My theory for the dummy chute is that is was suspicious, it was not full and had no riggers seal.. So, Cooper tossed it.

It had a red X on it as well...allegedly. NickyB made contact with some old time skydiver from Issaquah and he remembered that particular chute from the late 60's and early 70's being there. Said it had a red X on it. 

As you said, it would look suspicious. I might have suspected it contained a tracker. "I'll show them!" *boots it out the back*

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Robert99 has said in the past that the museum chute is NOT an NB-6..

Ok, well maybe I'm misunderstanding him. Apologies if so, R99. 

[FLYJACK 709]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

It had a red X on it as well...allegedly. NickyB made contact with some old time skydiver from Issaquah and he remembered that particular chute from the late 60's and early 70's being there. Said it had a red X on it. 

As you said, it would look suspicious. I might have suspected it contained a tracker. "I'll show them!" *boots it out the back*

It had a black X and red closing flaps..

Got conflated to a red X..

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

It had a black X and red closing flaps..

Got conflated to a red X..

What’s your source for that? Just curious

[FLYJACK 709]

12 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

What’s your source for that? Just curious

Did a deep dive on this years ago,, I don't have the sources handy.

Emerich said black X..

Then Parachutist article with Cossey said large X with red closing flaps..

https://parachutist.com/Article/the-secrets-of-db-cooper-part-one-notorious-flight-305

After that article the X became a red X in the Cooper world...  not before.

There never was a red X. The red flaps were conflated with the X...

[georger 244]

6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

What’s your source for that? Just curious

You guys just amaze me! 

For CC23 you could have a formal public opening of the WSHM/Hayden chute. That should draw a few .... ???

[FLYJACK 709]

4 hours ago, georger said:

You guys just amaze me! 

For CC23 you could have a formal public opening of the WSHM/Hayden chute. That should draw a few .... ???

No, there is potential Cooper DNA on that chute container pocket, don't screw it up by handling it more than necessary..

[georger 244]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

No, there is potential Cooper DNA on that chute container pocket, don't screw it up by handling it more than necessary..

Well.... tell that to WSHM etal !  Lets put you in charge of collecting all dna.

How has WSHM been storing-protecting the chute etc ?  Its a little late to be concerned about contamination! 

Edited August 7, 2023 by georger