DB Cooper

[olemisscub 510]

13 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

All FOIA requests that I have filed were specific enough to be understood by my Congressman and the senior FBI official who was the head of the FBI's Congressional Liaison Office.

Doesn’t matter if it’s understood by everyone. It would be impossible to misunderstand many of the FOIA’s I have filed, but they often get rejected on the first try.

Besides, I’m pretty sure Chaucer has posted the unredacted transcript, hasn’t he? I saw it in person myself.

[olemisscub 510]

Double post

Edited October 2, 2023 by olemisscub

[Robert99 50]

9 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Doesn’t matter if it’s understood by everyone. It would be impossible to misunderstand many of the FOIA’s I have filed, but they often get rejected on the first try.

Besides, I’m pretty sure Chaucer has posted the unredacted transcript, hasn’t he? I saw it in person myself.

Only the transcript with 19 redactions has been posted and that was about 10+ years ago.  I am not aware of anyone posting the unredacted transcript. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Robert99

[olemisscub 510]

6 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Only the transcript with 19 redactions has been posted and that was about 10+ years ago.  I am not aware of anyone posting the unredacted transcript. 

Nevermind, I’m thinking of the teletype. 

[Chaucer 110]

I have posted the unredacted teletype on Shutter's site. There's nothing untoward in those redactions. They simply excluded anything not relevant to Flight 305. 

 

[Chaucer 110]

16 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Okay, Olemiss let's make sure the future researchers get the correct information.  Using your numbers:

1.  The airliner was squawking 3100 for the entire time of the hijacking.  That means from Portland to Seattle and then to Reno.  The hijack code in 1971 was neither 3100 nor 3500.  An air traffic control radar typical made six rotations per minute which means the airliner's transponder was pinged ever 10 seconds per radar.  There is no public documentation that SAGE was ever involved in tracking the airliner.

 

In 1971, the transponder code for a hijacking was 3100. It was changed to 7500 effective September 9th, 1976. 

Source: FAA Airmen's Information Manual, May 1976. 

[FLYJACK 699]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

From latest Vault. Could this be a shard piece? Looks pretty clean though. Perhaps something someone found in Vancouver and turned in?

 

Nope.. probably a hoax.

[georger 244]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Nope.. probably a hoax.

It is Galen Cook who claimed corners of Cooper bills had been found on TBar in the Fall of 1979, prior to the Ingram find - he went on a talk show Coast to Coast with this. Cook claimed the finders were two teenage boys fishing on Tena Bar . . . and the corners were found north of the Ingram find.  Cook further claimed something about a conspiracy using corners of Cooper bills ............ ??? ................ I dont recall the details of his conspiracy theory ..........

also, Reversed area on FJ's posted image corrected as per below

Edited October 3, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 50]

7 hours ago, Chaucer said:

I have posted the unredacted teletype on Shutter's site. There's nothing untoward in those redactions. They simply excluded anything not relevant to Flight 305. 

 

The discussion was related to the Seattle ATC radio transcripts which were redacted in the only version that has been publicly released.

[Chaucer 110]

9 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The discussion was related to the Seattle ATC radio transcripts which were redacted in the only version that has been publicly released.

Why would the ATC transcripts contain anything worth redacting? Any of significance would be between Flight 305 and NWA ground personnel. 

305 discussed very little with ATC once en route to Reno except altitude and altimeter reports. 

[olemisscub 510]

On 10/2/2023 at 11:22 AM, SeventyWonderful said:

 

Then there's the suit.  It *could be* brown suiting material with thin black stripes was not as common as one might expect.  This jacket is from the early to mid 60s.  It's made by Haspel as part of their Sir Perior line of drip-dry suits and sports jackets.  It's not the same one as Cooper wore because the lapel is different, but the material may be the same, or very similar. If Cooper's suit really was drip-dry, it would make it that much easier to wash if he needed to clean up in a hurry and on the go.

 

 

[Robert99 50]

7 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Why would the ATC transcripts contain anything worth redacting? Any of significance would be between Flight 305 and NWA ground personnel. 

305 discussed very little with ATC once en route to Reno except altitude and altimeter reports. 

Chaucer, as I have pointed out to you and others numerous times, you need to read the Oakland ATC radio transcripts to see how air traffic control was actually conducted in 1971.  

Once you read the Oakland radio transcripts you should be able to understand what is missing from the Seattle radio transcripts.

[Robert99 50]

23 hours ago, Chaucer said:

In 1971, the transponder code for a hijacking was 3100. It was changed to 7500 effective September 9th, 1976. 

Source: FAA Airmen's Information Manual, May 1976. 

What is your source for saying the hijack code in 1971 was 3100?

[Chaucer 110]

40 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

What is your source for saying the hijack code in 1971 was 3100?

Edited October 3, 2023 by Chaucer

[SeventyWonderful 18]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

 

Oh that is all kinds of awesome!  This has seriously made my afternoon.

Cary Grant wears a Haspel drip dry suit in Charade.  Here's an article about it and here's the scene from the movie where he demonstrates it while taking a shower. 

The full movie is on Youtube here. 

It takes place in Paris and the plot is about how a gang of criminals, along with the US Treasury Department, is after the $250,000 that Audrey Hepburn's deceased husband stole during the War.

In the movie Cary Grant also wears a brown tweed sport coat, which looks like it has some black in it here. If that's what Tina meant by dark brown with possibly a thin black stripe, then it's (probably) a common material.  However, the Haspel drip dry jacket from the eBay listing is the only example of (or part of) a suit made from dark brown material with thin black pinstripes that I've come across in well over 100 hours of searching  (Vintage/antique clothing and design is a passion).

 

[Robert99 50]

7 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Agreed!  Does this mean that you have now actually read the Oakland ATC radio transcripts?

[Chaucer 110]

12 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Agreed!  Does this mean that you have now actually read the Oakland ATC radio transcripts?

I have. Many times over many years.

Have you now actually read the FAA Airmen's Information Manual, May 1976?

Edited October 4, 2023 by Chaucer

[CooperNWO305 151]

19 hours ago, SeventyWonderful said:

Oh that is all kinds of awesome!  This has seriously made my afternoon.

Cary Grant wears a Haspel drip dry suit in Charade.  Here's an article about it and here's the scene from the movie where he demonstrates it while taking a shower. 

The full movie is on Youtube here. 

It takes place in Paris and the plot is about how a gang of criminals, along with the US Treasury Department, is after the $250,000 that Audrey Hepburn's deceased husband stole during the War.

In the movie Cary Grant also wears a brown tweed sport coat, which looks like it has some black in it here. If that's what Tina meant by dark brown with possibly a thin black stripe, then it's (probably) a common material.  However, the Haspel drip dry jacket from the eBay listing is the only example of (or part of) a suit made from dark brown material with thin black pinstripes that I've come across in well over 100 hours of searching  (Vintage/antique clothing and design is a passion).

 

Great movie.  Good info.  Glad to see another Cary Grant fan.

[SeventyWonderful 18]

3 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Great movie.  Good info.  Glad to see another Cary Grant fan.

Well maybe our Mr. Cooper was one too, seeing as he hijacked a plane while literally traveling North by Northwest.

"Some of them crop duster pilots get rich if they live long enough".

Edited October 4, 2023 by SeventyWonderful

[Robert99 50]

3 hours ago, Chaucer said:

I have. Many times over many years.

Have you now actually read the FAA Airmen's Information Manual, May 1976?

As a matter of fact, I don't specifically remember the 1976 issue of the Airman's Information Manual but I owned an airplane in the 1976-time frame and kept up to date with the AIM and all other appropriate FAA publications.  I also kept up to date with the Jeppesen charts and approach plates.

I also received FAA mail and other information from FAA personnel that doesn't agree with some things you have posted as I remember them.   

[FLYJACK 699]

14 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

As a matter of fact, I don't specifically remember the 1976 issue of the Airman's Information Manual but I owned an airplane in the 1976-time frame and kept up to date with the AIM and all other appropriate FAA publications.  I also kept up to date with the Jeppesen charts and approach plates.

I also received FAA mail and other information from FAA personnel that doesn't agree with some things you have posted as I remember them.   

3100 hijack code in 1973..

https://books.google.ca/books?id=H6_3sLg_UtcC&pg=RA3-SA1-PA74&lpg=RA3-SA1-PA74&dq=hijack+code+squawk+3100+hijacking&source=bl&ots=pPN4YdOsUz&sig=ACfU3U0LHoSswbgxZrcEyQqyoRheTmQyuA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjno2z-NqBAxWBMX0KHeEeDf04FBDoAXoECAMQAw#v=onepage&q=hijack code squawk 3100 hijacking&f=false

 

[Robert99 50]

18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

3100 hijack code in 1973..

https://books.google.ca/books?id=H6_3sLg_UtcC&pg=RA3-SA1-PA74&lpg=RA3-SA1-PA74&dq=hijack+code+squawk+3100+hijacking&source=bl&ots=pPN4YdOsUz&sig=ACfU3U0LHoSswbgxZrcEyQqyoRheTmQyuA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjno2z-NqBAxWBMX0KHeEeDf04FBDoAXoECAMQAw#v=onepage&q=hijack code squawk 3100 hijacking&f=false

 

FlyJack, this does not say that the hijack code was 3100.  It simply says that the airliner that was being hijacked was told to squawk code 3100 until told to do otherwise.

The link you give for the November 1973 AIM lists the codes 3100 thru 3177 as being "Special Emergency" codes and that of course includes hijacks.  So any of those 78 codes could be considered a hijack code.  Do you know if these codes were in effect on November 24, 1971, during the hijacking of NWA 305?

 There was quite a bit of turmoil in the early 1970s as the hijack craze caught on and the aviation community was hard pressed to deal with it.  So things were in a constant state of flux and pilots, including me, had to stay up to the minute on what the FAA was doing and changing.

The end result was that the FAA officially established code 7700 as the one and only hijack code in 1976, according to Chaucer.  My memory may of the unofficial effective date may be earlier than Chaucer cites.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Robert99

[FLYJACK 699]

On 10/4/2023 at 1:48 PM, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, this does not say that the hijack code was 3100.  It simply says that the airliner that was being hijacked was told to squawk code 3100 until told to do otherwise.

The link you give for the November 1973 AIM lists the codes 3100 thru 3177 as being "Special Emergency" codes and that of course includes hijacks.  So any of those 78 codes could be considered a hijack code.  Do you know if these codes were in effect on November 24, 1971, during the hijacking of NWA 305?

 There was quite a bit of turmoil in the early 1970s as the hijack craze caught on and the aviation community was hard pressed to deal with it.  So things were in a constant state of flux and pilots, including me, had to stay up to the minute on what the FAA was doing and changing.

The end result was that the FAA officially established code 7700 as the one and only hijack code in 1976, according to Chaucer.  My memory may of the unofficial effective date may be earlier than Chaucer cites.

3100 was hijack code in 1971... 

 

https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/a-nashville-hijacking-38-years-ago-set-the-standard-on-how-not-to-handle-hostage/article_e394a22d-e99d-52a5-b91e-b0ab20d5db31.html

"Ground control calls Downs and advises him to broadcast the recognized hijack code. "Commander 58 November, squawk 3100."

Each broadcast sounds through tinny speakers in the cabin. Giffe listens in, but he doesn't know the hijack code.

"OK, squawking 3100," Downs says."

 

Norjak  was also asked to squawk 3100,, the hijacking code.

Edited October 6, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 50]

20 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

3100 was hijack code in 1971... 

 

https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/a-nashville-hijacking-38-years-ago-set-the-standard-on-how-not-to-handle-hostage/article_e394a22d-e99d-52a5-b91e-b0ab20d5db31.html

"Ground control calls Downs and advises him to broadcast the recognized hijack code. "Commander 58 November, squawk 3100."

Each broadcast sounds through tinny speakers in the cabin. Giffe listens in, but he doesn't know the hijack code.

"OK, squawking 3100," Downs says."

 

Norjak  was also asked to squawk 3100,, the hijacking code.

FlyJack, as pointed out earlier, 3100 was one of 78 possible hijack codes in 1971.  It was not "the" hijack code.

The ARINC teletype copies you include relate to communications between the airliner and NWA in Minneapolis and are NOT air traffic control communications.  No time is given in your post for the airliner switching to 3100 which should have been coordinated with air traffic control in this particular instance.

Note the interesting time stamps in the ARINC teletype copies.  The first message is listed as being sent at 3:54 PM PST and the teletype copy was sent at 2358 Zulu which was 4 minutes later.

The second message is listed as being sent at 3:55 PM PST and the teletype copy was sent at 2359 Zulu which was also 4 minutes later.

Since the airliner was hijacked at about 3:00 PM PST, air traffic control was not informed of that fact until at least an hour later at which time the airliner was already holding northwest of SEATAC.

Somewhere there is a comment that the SEATAC tower was not informed of the hijacking until the airliner was in the process of landing.

[Chaucer 110]

21 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, as pointed out earlier, 3100 was one of 78 possible hijack codes in 1971.  It was not "the" hijack code.

The ARINC teletype copies you include relate to communications between the airliner and NWA in Minneapolis and are NOT air traffic control communications.  No time is given in your post for the airliner switching to 3100 which should have been coordinated with air traffic control in this particular instance.

Note the interesting time stamps in the ARINC teletype copies.  The first message is listed as being sent at 3:54 PM PST and the teletype copy was sent at 2358 Zulu which was 4 minutes later.

The second message is listed as being sent at 3:55 PM PST and the teletype copy was sent at 2359 Zulu which was also 4 minutes later.

Since the airliner was hijacked at about 3:00 PM PST, air traffic control was not informed of that fact until at least an hour later at which time the airliner was already holding northwest of SEATAC.

Somewhere there is a comment that the SEATAC tower was not informed of the hijacking until the airliner was in the process of landing.