DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 709]

8 hours ago, Chaucer said:

I don't see how a landing near or north of Battle Ground allows for the money to arrive in the Columbia River without some unusual set of circumstances. Moreover, how does the money land north of Battle Ground but miraculously arrive near the Columbia River, across the river no less, near PDX? 

Then, I don't see how a single bundle survives intact while tumbling along the bottom of the Columbia River. More than likely, it would end up buried in a silt mound. Lastly, you have to have the money rises up from the depths of the Columbia River and find itself on the riverbank. 

Simply makes no sense and doesn't confine itself to the constraints of science.

Far more likely that the money bag ended up within the flood plain of the Columbia, hitched a ride with flood debris during the spring floods where the bag opened up on Tena Bar spilling out a bundle while the rest continued its journey down the Columbia. It doesn't require any complicated, convoluted, exotic, or elaborate explanations, but rather falls within natural, observable, recorded events. 

There is an explanation to move the move the money from Cooper's LZ to the River.

If the flow is adequate the money may not touch the bottom, or minimally. The Columbia River is sandy and very flat. This occurred in Spring during a flood when the River was well above the money find spot. Tom's Washougal test showed the money sink and move in the flow then settle to the bottom in still water.

Current can push debris up to a beach but still underwater even if slightly uphill,,,

I don't see any problem in theory.

 

[FLYJACK 709]

10 hours ago, Chaucer said:

So, within a few hours - perhaps less - the FBI sent this message to DC regarding the statements of the crew:

Several days later, this 302 was typed up regarding Bill Rataczak's statement to the FBI:

Can anyone, with any intellecutal honesty, read these statements and say they mean Lake Merwin, Battle Ground, or Orchards? To me, they clearly mean Vancouver. 

I have spoken with several people who live in the Vacouver/Portland area, and to a person, they all agree that the language used by the crew indicates a jump near/over Vancouver rather than points north. I have more evidence for this, but this is pretty convincing.

 

My take is the first summary was an early general statement... they did not know Cooper jumped over Portland or where exactly he jumped. They admitted they neglected to pinpoint the jump.

Then Rataczak was pinpointing the jump time as he knew it by giving a time estimate between two parameters he believed were recorded.. 

which was 8:05, last contact

and before the call 5 or 10 minutes later to Soderlind in the suburbs of Portland... presumably recorded by NWA

 

The crew didn't know exactly where Cooper jumped but used those two parameters to narrow the estimate. 

This is corroborated by Soderlind's notes and the FDR..

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 110]

The first statement was the earliest statement of the crew- mere hours after the interviews at the airport. It was then sent by "fax" to DC. It clearly says the JUMP occurred within or near Portland. It does not refer to the call to Soderlind. 

The second was written days later, and its wording is confusing. I think the initial statement underscores that the crew believes Cooper jumped very close to Portland.

[FLYJACK 709]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

The first statement was the earliest statement of the crew- mere hours after the interviews at the airport. It was then sent by "fax" to DC. It clearly says the JUMP occurred within or near Portland. It does not refer to the call to Soderlind. 

The second was written days later, and its wording is confusing. I think the initial statement underscores that the crew believes Cooper jumped very close to Portland.

I know, the first one is from early crew interviews for a summary..  the crew was speculating about Cooper's knowledge of the Seattle-Portland area. Those summaries can be misleading based on the way they are created, it is not the actual interview. It also states that Cooper probably jumped between Seattle and Portland. Nothing indicates they are claiming they knew Cooper jumped over Portland. Clearly, based on other info they did not know or mark the jump. We don't even know the "crew" source... IMO, this was general speculation that Cooper jumped between Seattle and Portland but closer to Portland,  that is about it. 

Rataczak later narrowed down and defined the parameters based on his belief that the two events would have been time stamped. He did not claim a location for the jump but just an estimate between two presumed times.. and since Soderlind was listening in and taking notes he would have known the timing of the call since they called him after Cooper jumped..

IMO, this summary of early speculation is not strong enough to overcome the weight of all the other evidence. In fact depending on what they meant by "vicinity" it may not even be contradictory.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 709]

Generally, the FBI/Soderlind had access to more info and fresh witnesses that we do not have today.

If for example, the crew claimed at the time that they knew Cooper jumped over Portland that would have been incorporated in their analysis.

To undermine the analysis done at the time you need more than a speculative comment in a summary, some actual evidence. We know there are errors in the investigation and files but they can be determined with evidence. 

Could Cooper have jumped over Portland.. like anything, it is possible but extremely unlikely and not supported by evidence.

IMO, more is needed to overcome the evidence for a Merwin to Battleground jump.

[georger 244]

5 hours ago, Chaucer said:

The first statement was the earliest statement of the crew- mere hours after the interviews at the airport. It was then sent by "fax" to DC. It clearly says the JUMP occurred within or near Portland. It does not refer to the call to Soderlind. 

The second was written days later, and its wording is confusing. I think the initial statement underscores that the crew believes Cooper jumped very close to Portland.

That is what you want, so just go with it!  and .......  the Cooper case is full of people who want this or that whether its true or not.  900% of the time is spent carping about what people want or dont want whether it happened or not! 

Edited November 5, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

5 hours ago, Chaucer said:

The first statement was the earliest statement of the crew- mere hours after the interviews at the airport. It was then sent by "fax" to DC. It clearly says the JUMP occurred within or near Portland. It does not refer to the call to Soderlind. 

The second was written days later, and its wording is confusing. I think the initial statement underscores that the crew believes Cooper jumped very close to Portland.

You know me, I don't really care where he jumped. I'm quite pliable on the issue. I defer to much smarter people such as yourself and Flyjack to figure this stuff out. However, as I've stated on the group, I struggle with applying too much precision to that statement because their entire flight from Seattle to Reno was 570 miles. Traveling 200mph, at 10,000 feet, and on a 570 mile flight, "within or in proximity of Portland" could mean a larger area than we think. Proximity of Portland may mean something different as part of a 570 mile flight than it does to you or I driving through Clark County on I-5. 

I think their statement certainly puts Vancouver in play, but it doesn't exclude places as far north as Battle Ground IMO. 

[Chaucer 110]

What other evidence?

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

IIMO, this summary of early speculation is not strong enough to overcome the weight of all the other evidence. 

 

What other evidence?

[FLYJACK 709]

2 hours ago, Chaucer said:

What other evidence?

All the stuff that went into Soderlinds analysis.. it is listed in the files. Soderlind had his own notes of comms with the crew and was in a position to interview them at the time. If the crew knew Cooper jumped over Portland we would have heard more about it. To the contrary, they didn't mark it themselves..To me, it was general speculation that Cooper jumped near Portland. To a plane crew the vicinity of Portland may be a larger area than you think. IMO, the crew did not actually know were he jumped, only that it was between last contact at 8:05 and the call to Soderlind time marked 5 or 10 minutes later. Soderlind has that call if it was after Portland it would be clear to him.

I don't believe the plane was over Portland at 8:15.. it was nearer Battle Ground. To jump over Portland it would be about 20:18. Granted there is a little wiggle room but not enough.

IMO, the oscillations and bump were the same series of fluctuations but they differed in magnitude... the needle movement increases rapidly and drew their attention then an extreme final movement was also felt as a pressure bump.. this series of oscillations is in seconds not minutes.

I believe they called Soderlind before Portland and being after Cooper jumped that puts Cooper's jump roughly Battleground and N..

Also, it is hard to believe Cooper would have jumped over Portland or the Airport..  to drift back over the River if he pulled of course.  Portland/Vancouver is a well lit urban area.

I just don't see anything that undermines the LZ analysis. 

You can play with the wind direction slightly, the time stamps slightly or the error in the path map.. that gives you a little wiggle room but nothing significant.

You really have to change everything to make Cooper's jump over Portland.

IMO, it is just a very very low probability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 110]

We disagree on the fundamental facts of the case. For example, 305 was over Vancouver at 8:15, not Battle Ground.

I won't belabor the discussion arguing over details. There's no point.

I will clarify that I am not suggesting a jump over Portland or even over the Columbia River - merely in the vicinity of Vancouver.

 

[FLYJACK 709]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

We disagree on the fundamental facts of the case. For example, 305 was over Vancouver at 8:15, not Battle Ground.

I won't belabor the discussion arguing over details. There's no point.

I will clarify that I am not suggesting a jump over Portland or even over the Columbia River - merely in the vicinity of Vancouver.

 

Do you think he was a no pull?

If he pulled, as I said he would have had to jump over Portland to land on the Vancouver side of the River. That is why I said 8:15 wasn't Portland. I have always thought 8:15  was the southern jump zone boundary.. but the higher probability is more like 8:11-8:13.

I said nearer Battle Ground.. The Battle Ground Vortac was 8:14 between Battle Ground and Brush Prairie...  That is almost 10 miles from the Columbia River.

IMO, Vancouver City proper is between 8:17-8:18..

And you need to factor in the wind drift if he pulled. To land just on the N side of the Columbia Cooper would have had to jump at about 8:19 right over Portland.. 

Is there a greater Vancouver Wa??

Here in Canada we have a greater Vancouver which includes many surrounding cities and municipalities and often the entire area is defined as Vancouver..  

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Andrade1812 51]

8 hours ago, Slim King said:

I've come to the conclusion that the only people remaining on this thread are the FBI plants that are paid to be here and constantly drag out old BS FBI 302's to re-write the history of one of their biggest Scams.

Why don't you try the Cooper subreddit? 

[Andrade1812 51]

8 hours ago, Slim King said:

Rataczak was in on the scam. He was the only one coming out often to be the hero... But his stories were not always exactly the same. He was on the FBI payroll.

*Yawn*

[FLYJACK 709]

In the Dan Gryder interview, Rataczak said Cooper was gone before Portland...

 

So, to have Cooper jump over/next to the Columbia.. we have to reject and alter..

 

The path timing - shift it several minutes.

Rataczak's statements - conclude he was making many false statements.

Soderlind's analysis which includes his crew/comm notes - conclude that somehow Soderlind's notes were inaccurate and the call to him was well after Portland.

The oscillation/jump time - create a delay of 5-7 minutes between the oscillation report and pressure bump.

 

IMO, there is no evidence to change these things... you can create doubt individually but to alter all of them with no evidence and only speculation isn't enough.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The oscillation/jump time - create a delay of 5-7 minutes between the oscillation report and pressure bump.

I'm not sure I can envision a scenario with that long of a delay, but I could see 2-3 minutes. 8:14 is about as far as I'm willing to go. We know from the copycats (at least from McCoy, Mac, and Heady) that they were down there for a few minutes either mustering up their courage (Mac) or scanning the area to make sure they knew where they were (McCoy, Heady). 

[CooperNWO305 151]

Searches for "cocaine in ocean" bring up a lot of articles of drugs and money.  I remember one from Florida years ago.  Essentially smugglers would have to dump their money or risk prison. River banks have all sorts of debris.  A packet of money may sink in a tank, but maybe not in moving water.

I was not aware there were left and right handed forks.  Interesting.

[FLYJACK 709]

26 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I'm not sure I can envision a scenario with that long of a delay, but I could see 2-3 minutes. 8:14 is about as far as I'm willing to go. We know from the copycats (at least from McCoy, Mac, and Heady) that they were down there for a few minutes either mustering up their courage (Mac) or scanning the area to make sure they knew where they were (McCoy, Heady). 

That assumes the oscillations reported were Cooper going down the stairs or at the bottom..

The sled test showed no matching rapid pressure oscillations with a guy on the stairs, not until the weight was dropped, then it matched NORJAK.

 

IMO, the rapid increase in oscillations seen on the gauge by the crew culminated in the pressure bump, an extreme oscillation, within seconds not minutes. That is why the FBI/Soderlind treated them as one event.. If there was a significant delay they would have figured that out.

 

But, I'd go to 8:09 - 8:15 and close to Brush Prairie max but with a diminishing probability after 8:13 and before 8:10..  8:11-8:12 is the sweet spot.

The other big factor in this is a no pull.. a pull requires another 1.5 minutes further down the path to account for drift. So, you need a pull at about 8:19 to land on the N side of the Columbia. I can't imagine any hijacker jumping over a well lit urban area..

I estimate a no pull at less than 1%.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 709]

The FBI/Soderlind analysis generally got it right, the only thing I'd change is expand the wind direction to include SW-SE but they do admit it was an estimate.

Without hard evidence to contradict that is the default position.

Edited November 6, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I was not aware there were left and right handed forks.  Interesting.

Yes, I've literally never heard of such a thing. I've never had an issue with food falling off my fork. Is this a Canadian thing or something?

[olemisscub 510]

2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Searches for "cocaine in ocean" bring up a lot of articles of drugs and money.  I remember one from Florida years ago.  Essentially smugglers would have to dump their money or risk prison. River banks have all sorts of debris.  A packet of money may sink in a tank, but maybe not in moving water.

I've come across several articles lately when I did newspapers searches for "money found beach" that are essentially what you are discussing. Stories where people were finding cash along the beach. It was like a feeding frenzy with kids and everyone out there picking up money. Though the descriptions of the cash in the articles make these seem like these were loose bills and not packeted or bundled. 

[FLYJACK 709]

Road flares are bright red...

The bomb was described as reddish rusty color...  and also wrapped in red plastic tape.

 

 

 

[olemisscub 510]

Just now, Slim King said:

It was road flares.

road flares are too long. These were described as six to eight inches. If road flares were only six to eight inches long you'd run the risk of burning yourself from them. Road flares are typically fifteen inches long. 

[olemisscub 510]

Ahoy! Self-burial on a beach!

 

[CooperNWO305 151]

Here is a link to a GPS tracker for about $29.  This one can be tracked from miles away, so I could drop it in the water near Vancouver, and track it from Washington, DC.  I don't know if I could track multiple ones of these on one phone, but I'm guessing I can. My thought would be to set these up, wrap in plastic or put in something that floats, and drop 5-6 of these in the area and see what happens.  We might not be able to simulate the money, but we could at least see where the currents brought the devices.  It might take multiple iterations in that we can't simulate a flood until there is one.  I would just need someone in the area to drop these. I would buy them, set them up, charge them, send them to Portland, and then we could go from there.  I'm thinking I'd want these dropped near Battle Ground, maybe 2 or so, a couple in the Columbia, etc.  Any input? Where would you want these dropped?

https://www.amazon.com/LandAirSea-Waterproof-Magnetic-Personal-Location/dp/B06XVZ6Y4T/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?c=ts&keywords=GPS%2BTrackers&qid=1699295218&refinements=p_n_feature_two_browse-bin%3A554289011&s=gps&sr=1-1-spons&ts_id=617650011&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

Edited November 6, 2023 by CooperNWO305

[olemisscub 510]

6 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Here is a link to a GPS tracker for about $29.  This one can be tracked from miles away, so I could drop it in the water near Vancouver, and track it from Washington, DC.  I don't know if I could track multiple ones of these on one phone, but I'm guessing I can. My thought would be to set these up, wrap in plastic or put in something that floats, and drop 5-6 of these in the area and see what happens.  We might not be able to simulate the money, but we could at least see where the currents brought the devices.  It might take multiple iterations in that we can't simulate a flood until there is one.  I would just need someone in the area to drop these. I would buy them, set them up, charge them, send them to Portland, and then we could go from there.  I'm thinking I'd want these dropped near Battle Ground, maybe 2 or so, a couple in the Columbia, etc.  Any input? Where would you want these dropped?

https://www.amazon.com/LandAirSea-Waterproof-Magnetic-Personal-Location/dp/B06XVZ6Y4T/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?c=ts&keywords=GPS%2BTrackers&qid=1699295218&refinements=p_n_feature_two_browse-bin%3A554289011&s=gps&sr=1-1-spons&ts_id=617650011&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

Steve Hart on the FB group would be the guy to get those to since he lives there in BG.