DB Cooper

[olemisscub 510]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

BTW,,  What defines a copycat,,, 

 

Since I'm writing a book on the topic, it's something I had to define very early on. My definition was a ransom hijacking where the method of escape was going to be to jump out. Asking for parachutes as part of a ransom wasn't enough. The intent to jump needed to be there.

I personally think 11 days was enough time. I'm not married to the idea that Cooper was a copycat, but I don't think any element of the crime would have required extensive planning. I just think the odds are greater that Cooper derived the idea from Cini than the odds that this was parallel thinking. 

The copycats who meet my criteria are:

- Dan Cooper

- Everett Holt

- Billy Hurst

- Richard LaPoint

- Merlyn St. George 

- McCoy

- Stanley Speck

- Henrique Martins - Brazil

- Lomas - Ecuador

- Hahneman

- Heady

- Mac

- Francis Goodell

- Michael Green and Lulseged Tesfa

- Melvin Fisher

- Miloslav Hrabinec - Australia

This is going off memory so there may be a few I've missed. 

There were several others who did demand parachutes, but my research shows they never were intending to actually use the parachutes to escape, so they don't qualify. These include the two Bulgarian hijackers shot and killed in San Francisco in July 72, Roger Holder and Cathy Kerkow, and also the three hijackers who got drunk and threatened to crash the plane into Oak Ridge Nuclear Facility. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 709]

3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Since I'm writing a book on the topic, it's something I had to define very early on. My definition was a ransom hijacking where the method of escape was going to be to jump out. Asking for parachutes as part of a ransom wasn't enough. The intent to jump needed to be there.

I personally think 11 days was enough time. I'm not married to the idea that Cooper was a copycat, but I don't think any element of the crime would have required extensive planning. I just think the odds are greater that Cooper derived the idea from Cini than the odds that this was parallel thinking. 

The copycats who meet my criteria are:

- Dan Cooper

- Everett Holt

- Billy Hurst

- Richard LaPoint

- Merlyn St. George 

- McCoy

- Stanley Speck

- Henrique Martins - Brazil

- Lomas - Ecuador

- Hahneman

- Heady

- Mac

- Francis Goodell

- Michael Green and Lulseged Tesfa

- Melvin Fisher

- Miloslav Hrabinec - Australia

There were several others who did demand parachutes, but my research shows they never were intending to actually use the parachutes to escape, so they don't qualify. These include the two Bulgarian hijackers shot and killed in San Francisco in July 72, Roger Holder and Cathy Kerkow, and also the three hijackers who got drunk and threatened to crash the plane into Oak Ridge Nuclear Facility. 

To me, copycat means inspired by a previous one..  

Hahneman's plan predated Norjak.. not a copycat.

[olemisscub 510]

18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Hahneman's plan predated Norjak.. not a copycat.

I’ve yet to see any evidence of that. 

[FLYJACK 709]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I’ve yet to see any evidence of that. 

If it exists, would that mean he was not a copycat?

[olemisscub 510]

26 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

If it exists, would that mean he was not a copycat?

If you had evidence that he was planning a ransom hijacking with an escape via parachute before Cini, then no, he would not be a copycat. 

[FLYJACK 709]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

If you had evidence that he was planning a ransom hijacking with an escape via parachute before Cini, then no, he would not be a copycat. 

Then he is not a copycat.

[olemisscub 510]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Then he is not a copycat.

I’m willing to keep an open mind but this reeks of the “I know something you don’t know” that you did with Hahneman for years. Either put what you have out there or don’t bring it up. It’s a bit obnoxious to do that to people. 

[FLYJACK 709]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I’m willing to keep an open mind but this reeks of the “I know something you don’t know” that you did with Hahneman for years. Either put what you have out there or don’t bring it up. It’s a bit obnoxious to do that to people. 

Ok, never mind.

Defining a copycat is subjective without evidence like for McCoy..

Edited November 8, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Ok, never mind.

Defining a copycat is subjective without evidence like for McCoy..

Heady said it was Cooper inspired. LaPoint had DB Cooper articles hanging on his walls. McNally said it was Cooper. We know about McCoy.

The rest of those nitwits listed, the bulk of which were outright mentally disturbed, weren’t coming up with the concept on their own.

[FLYJACK 709]

19 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Heady said it was Cooper inspired. LaPoint had DB Cooper articles hanging on his walls. McNally said it was Cooper. We know about McCoy.

The rest of those nitwits listed, the bulk of which were outright mentally disturbed, weren’t coming up with the concept on their own.

That is why the FBI publicly claimed Cooper likely died...

Hahneman was branded a copycat from day one in the media because it occurred later, he wasn't.

Maybe he is the only exception. I have never done a deep dive on them.

 

 

[olemisscub 510]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That is why the FBI publicly claimed Cooper likely died...

Correct. Detlor told this to me personally. 

If you think Hahneman is Cooper, then he cannot be a copycat, obviously. If you have actual evidence that he was planning a parajacking before NORJAK, then I'm all ears. 

[FLYJACK 709]

11 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Correct. Detlor told this to me personally. 

If you think Hahneman is Cooper, then he cannot be a copycat, obviously. If you have actual evidence that he was planning a parajacking before NORJAK, then I'm all ears. 

I found evidence that he had planned his hijacking for a year.

[olemisscub 510]

20 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I found evidence that he had planned his hijacking for a year.

I wouldn't dispute that. He had been discussing his delusions about Honduras for quite some time. A ransom hijacking would certainly be a quick way to make some money for his efforts. It's the parajacking part that I'm dubious about. 

[CooperNWO305 151]

There is some discussion on the FB group about the money find.  One gentleman posted an article from Bruce Smith about some kids finding money particles before Brian.  Not sure if it is accurate or not.  It made me think of Unsurelock's posts on the Forum.  Below is a link to one set, I can't remember how to cut and paste the link to just one post.  He had written an article I think about using the corners of bills to pass off 1's as 20's.  He also posted some pics of the FBI's $20 shards in little plexi glass containers.

 

https://www.thedbcooperforum.com/db-cooper/tina-bar-money-find/msg20131/#msg20131

 

Article on Mountain News about a pilot chute and some money shards:  https://themountainnewswa.net/2012/11/19/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-disclosure-of-parachute-find-at-tinas-bar-fuels-interest-in-baffling-case/

Article on the money shards: https://themountainnewswa.net/2012/11/16/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-new-evidence-on-money-find-sheds-harsh-light-on-fbi-investigation-but-excites-citizen-sleuths/

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

There is some discussion on the FB group about the money find.  One gentleman posted an article from Bruce Smith about some kids finding money particles before Brian.  Not sure if it is accurate or not.  It made me think of Unsurelock's posts on the Forum.  Below is a link to one set, I can't remember how to cut and paste the link to just one post.  He had written an article I think about using the corners of bills to pass off 1's as 20's.  He also posted some pics of the FBI's $20 shards in little plexi glass containers.

 

https://www.thedbcooperforum.com/db-cooper/tina-bar-money-find/msg20131/#msg20131

 

Article on Mountain News about a pilot chute and some money shards:  https://themountainnewswa.net/2012/11/19/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-disclosure-of-parachute-find-at-tinas-bar-fuels-interest-in-baffling-case/

Article on the money shards: https://themountainnewswa.net/2012/11/16/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-new-evidence-on-money-find-sheds-harsh-light-on-fbi-investigation-but-excites-citizen-sleuths/

Yea. The kids fell out of an airplane or something as it was flying over the place - their bodies were never found or something.

[CooperNWO305 151]

Cook says that in the summer of 2012 he spent a week at Tina’s Bar, located about six miles downstream from Vancouver, WA, talking with fishermen, boaters and river lovers.  After dozens of pleasant conversations and many discussions on the finer points of Cooper lore, he eventually met a fisherman who had indirect knowledge of a money find that pre-dated Brian Ingram’s discovery in early February, 1980.

 The fisherman, unnamed by Cook, says that he knew of two other fishermen, now adults but teenagers in 1980, who say that they had found money along the Columbia in the vicinity of Tina’s Bar.

 Cook located the two gentlemen and corroborated the story of the first fisherman.

 Cook says that the two boys – now in their mid-to-late forties and living in the Portland, Oregon area, but then aged 12 and 14 – had been fishing at Tina’s Bar for steelhead in January, 1980, one month prior to Brian Ingram’s discovery.

 The two teens say they found about a dozen pieces of 20 dollar bills buried in a small hole at a site the Cook later determined was about three feet away from the spot where Ingram found his money. 

 The teen fishermen told Cook that the shards were all corner pieces of twenties, fairly similar in size, and that they knew the shards came from a twenty because each piece had the numerals “2” and “0” on it.

 Cook also says that the lads told him that they found a handful of similar pieces the following weekend about 100 yards downstream from their first find, and that the shards were lying on the surface of the sand, as if they had been washed there by the river current.

 At the time, the teens did not know the significance of their find and did not save the shards.  Only later, after the Ingram discovery, did they understand the nature of their encounter.  However, Cook has not disclosed why the teens did not tell authorities of their own money find.

[Andrade1812 51]

16 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Since I'm writing a book on the topic, it's something I had to define very early on. My definition was a ransom hijacking where the method of escape was going to be to jump out. Asking for parachutes as part of a ransom wasn't enough. The intent to jump needed to be there.

I personally think 11 days was enough time. I'm not married to the idea that Cooper was a copycat, but I don't think any element of the crime would have required extensive planning. I just think the odds are greater that Cooper derived the idea from Cini than the odds that this was parallel thinking. 

The copycats who meet my criteria are:

- Dan Cooper

- Everett Holt

- Billy Hurst

- Richard LaPoint

- Merlyn St. George 

- McCoy

- Stanley Speck

- Henrique Martins - Brazil

- Lomas - Ecuador

- Hahneman

- Heady

- Mac

- Francis Goodell

- Michael Green and Lulseged Tesfa

- Melvin Fisher

- Miloslav Hrabinec - Australia

This is going off memory so there may be a few I've missed. 

There were several others who did demand parachutes, but my research shows they never were intending to actually use the parachutes to escape, so they don't qualify. These include the two Bulgarian hijackers shot and killed in San Francisco in July 72, Roger Holder and Cathy Kerkow, and also the three hijackers who got drunk and threatened to crash the plane into Oak Ridge Nuclear Facility. 

I'll restate, what was the average time the copycats took to actively plan their hijackings? Cini was over a year, we can probably say McCoy was three or four months... How long did McNally plan his? Heady is another one we should have a timeframe on.

[Andrade1812 51]

I'll also suggest that we have direct evidence of simultaneous planning. Just as Cini was visiting his local paracenter, someone stopped by Elsinore asking questions that directly relate to this kind of crime.

[georger 244]

3 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Cook says that in the summer of 2012 he spent a week at Tina’s Bar, located about six miles downstream from Vancouver, WA, talking with fishermen, boaters and river lovers.  After dozens of pleasant conversations and many discussions on the finer points of Cooper lore, he eventually met a fisherman who had indirect knowledge of a money find that pre-dated Brian Ingram’s discovery in early February, 1980.

 The fisherman, unnamed by Cook, says that he knew of two other fishermen, now adults but teenagers in 1980, who say that they had found money along the Columbia in the vicinity of Tina’s Bar.

 Cook located the two gentlemen and corroborated the story of the first fisherman.

 Cook says that the two boys – now in their mid-to-late forties and living in the Portland, Oregon area, but then aged 12 and 14 – had been fishing at Tina’s Bar for steelhead in January, 1980, one month prior to Brian Ingram’s discovery.

 The two teens say they found about a dozen pieces of 20 dollar bills buried in a small hole at a site the Cook later determined was about three feet away from the spot where Ingram found his money. 

 The teen fishermen told Cook that the shards were all corner pieces of twenties, fairly similar in size, and that they knew the shards came from a twenty because each piece had the numerals “2” and “0” on it.

 Cook also says that the lads told him that they found a handful of similar pieces the following weekend about 100 yards downstream from their first find, and that the shards were lying on the surface of the sand, as if they had been washed there by the river current.

 At the time, the teens did not know the significance of their find and did not save the shards.  Only later, after the Ingram discovery, did they understand the nature of their encounter.  However, Cook has not disclosed why the teens did not tell authorities of their own money find.

Money chopper at work?  Cutting corners off to paste to other lesser value bills ?  Did they keep any of these corners?  Money must have passed through a jet engine fan .... as Cooper jumped over Tena Bar.    

Its amazing that Cook's account has received so little attention especially since it may be 'key' to the whole Cooper money find. Somehow money is being chopped. Why didnt Cook document this more fully ? Who has these found Cooper money 'corners' today?  No maps, notes, or other formal documentation. 

New universe with life discovered but no documentation.  Finder forgets where he put it!  Oh well ...

Edited November 8, 2023 by georger

[JAGdb 89]

3 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Cook says that in the summer of 2012 he spent a week at Tina’s Bar, located about six miles downstream from Vancouver, WA, talking with fishermen, boaters and river lovers.  After dozens of pleasant conversations and many discussions on the finer points of Cooper lore, he eventually met a fisherman who had indirect knowledge of a money find that pre-dated Brian Ingram’s discovery in early February, 1980.

 The fisherman, unnamed by Cook, says that he knew of two other fishermen, now adults but teenagers in 1980, who say that they had found money along the Columbia in the vicinity of Tina’s Bar.

 Cook located the two gentlemen and corroborated the story of the first fisherman.

 Cook says that the two boys – now in their mid-to-late forties and living in the Portland, Oregon area, but then aged 12 and 14 – had been fishing at Tina’s Bar for steelhead in January, 1980, one month prior to Brian Ingram’s discovery.

 The two teens say they found about a dozen pieces of 20 dollar bills buried in a small hole at a site the Cook later determined was about three feet away from the spot where Ingram found his money. 

 The teen fishermen told Cook that the shards were all corner pieces of twenties, fairly similar in size, and that they knew the shards came from a twenty because each piece had the numerals “2” and “0” on it.

 Cook also says that the lads told him that they found a handful of similar pieces the following weekend about 100 yards downstream from their first find, and that the shards were lying on the surface of the sand, as if they had been washed there by the river current.

 At the time, the teens did not know the significance of their find and did not save the shards.  Only later, after the Ingram discovery, did they understand the nature of their encounter.  However, Cook has not disclosed why the teens did not tell authorities of their own money find.

If true, It's odd that they didn't come forward after the money find.  The part above about finding corners in a small hole 3 feet away from the estimated money find location is new to me.  I remember the part about the find 100 yards downstream.  

But without sources or corroboration, it has to be taken with a grain of salt.  

If memory serves me correctly, Galen has the source information.  But  as he was supposedly writing a book about Gossett being the hijacker, he was keeping it all under wraps.

Follow ups for me would be:

- Were the corners cut cleanly as if intentionally done by a human ?  Or were they just broken shards from natural forces ?

- How did they make the first find on Tena Bar, in the small hole 3 feet away from the original find ?

[georger 244]

4 hours ago, JAGdb said:

If true, It's odd that they didn't come forward after the money find.  The part above about finding corners in a small hole 3 feet away from the estimated money find location is new to me.  I remember the part about the find 100 yards downstream.  

But without sources or corroboration, it has to be taken with a grain of salt.  

If memory serves me correctly, Galen has the source information.  But  as he was supposedly writing a book about Gossett being the hijacker, he was keeping it all under wraps.

Follow ups for me would be:

- Were the corners cut cleanly as if intentionally done by a human ?  Or were they just broken shards from natural forces ?

- How did they make the first find on Tena Bar, in the small hole 3 feet away from the original find ?

In a small hole? ???  Define small hole.

Why didnt they come forward ?  That would have been major news.... guess they were waiting for Cook to find them ?

Has Cook actually seen these Cooper money corners the boys found ?

I'm betting there is more to this story. 

Did Cook tell his FBI friend Ng ?  He told 'Coast to Coast'.  And the Cooper world missed it!  Well not really. It was published here years ago - and nobody cared.  

Will Cook's story have a cost of living increase?

'O sole mio" has been performed and covered by many artists, including Enrico Caruso, Rosa Ponselle and her sister Carmella, Andrea Bocelli,^[11]Beniamino Gigli, Richard Tucker^[12] and Mario Lanza. Sergio Franchi recorded this song on his 1962 RCA Victor Red Seal debut album Romantic Italian Songs.^[13]Luciano Pavarotti won the 1980 Grammy Award for Best Classical Vocal Performance for his rendition of "'O sole mio".

Good night Ivene.

Edited November 9, 2023 by georger

[georger 244]

If Tom Kaye could examine those 'corners' Cook's witnesses found, it could be very* important. Enough said. This should be self-evident to all concerned. 

Who did the boys communicate their find(s) to, and where are the pieces of bills - what happened to them ?  Does Taylor Swift have them ? 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by georger

[georger 244]

Original 2012 announcement by Smith-Cook about  kids finding more money at Tena Bar can be found here:    

https://themountainnewswa.net/2012/11/16/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-new-evidence-on-money-find-sheds-harsh-light-on-fbi-investigation-but-excites-citizen-sleuths/

''A small group of fishermen may have found pieces of DB Cooper’s ransom money on the banks of the Columbia River weeks before 8-year old Brian Ingram found his famous three bundles of twenties, investigator Galen Cook has announced this week. ''

 

[FLYJACK 709]

UK - Money found in River...

Paper, floating/suspended, some stuck together but not in complete packets/bundles..  

It didn't, but this is what you'd expect if it went through a suction dredge... busted apart packets/bundles.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pictured-banknotes-found-water-spalding-2809107

 

[The Cooper Vortex 100]

New episode out now! DB Cooper was the Elsinore Ghost with Patricia Boland. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-the-elsinore-ghost-patricia-boland/