DB Cooper

[olemisscub 510]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

. There is no way he jumped where he had planned prior.

Cooper's LZ was 100% ad hoc.

 

He may not have had an actual LZ in so far as “planning”. Just anywhere around Clark or Cowlitz would have been fine with him. He’d figure it once he landed.
 

Mac was essentially just wanting to jump somewhere that was in northern Indiana or Michigan so long as it wasn’t Lake Erie. LaPoint apparently just wanted to jump anywhere north of Denver. Hahneman may have known he was over Honduras but he certainly wouldn’t have had a precise LZ in mind. I posit Cooper was the same way.

Oh, and I asked Tom about the map. He said the map is laminated but he’s pretty sure that the actual sheet that the map is on is yellow.

Edited November 26, 2023 by olemisscub

[georger 244]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

He may not have had an actual LZ in so far as “planning”. Just anywhere around Clark or Cowlitz would have been fine with him. He’d figure it once he landed.
 

Mac was essentially just wanting to jump somewhere that was in northern Indiana or Michigan so long as it wasn’t Lake Erie. LaPoint apparently just wanted to jump anywhere north of Denver. Hahneman may have known he was over Honduras but he certainly wouldn’t have had a precise LZ in mind. I posit Cooper was the same way.

Oh, and I asked Tom about the map. He said the map is laminated but he’s pretty sure that the actual sheet that the map is on is yellow.

Oh Good! We dont have to paint our maps pink because somebody says they were pink due to delay ....  

[FLYJACK 710]

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

He may not have had an actual LZ in so far as “planning”. Just anywhere around Clark or Cowlitz would have been fine with him. He’d figure it once he landed.
 

Mac was essentially just wanting to jump somewhere that was in northern Indiana or Michigan so long as it wasn’t Lake Erie. LaPoint apparently just wanted to jump anywhere north of Denver. Hahneman may have known he was over Honduras but he certainly wouldn’t have had a precise LZ in mind. I posit Cooper was the same way.

Oh, and I asked Tom about the map. He said the map is laminated but he’s pretty sure that the actual sheet that the map is on is yellow.

Sure, a planned LZ is a general area, not too exact..

Forget about Mac or other hijackers.. these are not comparables.

How many hijackers jumped very close to where their hijacking started.

How many hijackers gave no directions at all.

How many changed their demands.

How many were never identified.

Other than heading south Cooper had no way of knowing where the plane was going to be before he jumped... his jump was ad hoc for three reasons,, he didn't know where the plane was going to be, he was delayed and he changed from his initial plan to then jump ASAP. 

 

I don't think the map is yellow, if I recall correctly from images I have seen the laminated part that goes slightly outside the map is yellow, therefore the lamination is 100% yellow. If the map was yellow and the lamination clear the laminated part outside the map would be clear. If both the map and the lamination was yellow then the map portion would be darker yellow than the laminated part outside aka double yellow for the the map plus lamination.. The yellow is consistent for the map and the lamination outside the map. Those original maps are white, not yellow.. So, logic and evidence indicates the map is white and the lamination is yellow.

Anyway, I looked at this a while ago and that is how I remember it. My conclusion was that the lamination was yellow not the actual map.

 

Edit,, Lucky I found it right away..

100% confirmation the lamination is yellow..

and if the map was also yellow it would be darker yellow, a yellow map plus yellow lamination.. it isn't, therefore only the lamination is yellow.

My point was Chaucer was talking to Spangler and referred to the yellow map... It wasn't yellow.

case closed

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 710]

4 hours ago, georger said:

Oh Good! We dont have to paint our maps pink because somebody says they were pink due to delay ....  

This is why forum's suck..

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 110]

JFC, are we really arguing about what color the flight path map is/was? 

Like, how is that at all relevant in light of the revelations made by Major Spangler about its origins and use? We're not going to discuss any of that?

THAT is why forums suck. 

[FLYJACK 710]

40 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

JFC, are we really arguing about what color the flight path map is/was? 

Like, how is that at all relevant in light of the revelations made by Major Spangler about its origins and use? We're not going to discuss any of that?

THAT is why forums suck. 

There is no argument about the map colour..

You talked to him and used the term 'yellow map" in your summary..

My point is that it wasn't yellow,,,

I don't know if you used the term "yellow map" with Spangler but you did in your summary. 

If you did refer to a "yellow" map with him he would not know what you were referring to,, it was white.

But, overall, your interview basically confirmed what most of us already concluded and put yet another nail in the coffin for the Western Flight Path. Those of us who already accepted the flight path have noting to add and those that have pushed the WFP have no response.

If you used the term "yellow map" with Spangler then his responses may not be accurate. If you only used "yellow map" in your summary then it is inconsequential.

What sucks is when people fail to recognize context and say stupid things.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 110]

45 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

There is no argument about the map colour..

You talked to him and used the term 'yellow map" in your summary..

My point is that it wasn't yellow,,,

I don't know if you used the term "yellow map" with Spangler but you did in your summary. 

If you did refer to a "yellow" map with him he would not know what you were referring to,, it was white.

But, overall, your interview basically confirmed what most of us already concluded and put yet another nail in the coffin for the Western Flight Path. Those of us who already accepted the flight path have noting to add and those that have pushed the WFP have no response.

If you used the term "yellow map" with Spangler then his responses may not be accurate. If you only used "yellow map" in your summary then it is inconsequential.

What sucks is when people fail to recognize context and say stupid things.

 

I emailed him an image of the map among other things. He and I knew exactly what we were talking about.

There was nothing missing in the context of our conversation.

You know, like teeth. 

[FLYJACK 710]

1 minute ago, Chaucer said:

I emailed him an image of the map among other things. He and I knew exactly what we were talking about.

There was nothing missing in the context of our conversation.

You know, like teeth. 

I only brought it up initially for clarification... as I remember concluding it was white with a yellow lamination. The creator would have thought it was white.

olemiss then challenged me..

I found the pic and it is settled.. 

no big deal

[Chaucer 110]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

I only brought it up initially for clarification... as I remember concluding it was white with a yellow lamination. The creator would have thought it was white.

olemiss then challenged me..

I found the pic and it is settled.. 

no big deal

Agreed. The color is inconsequential. 

The over-arching point is that we now have clarification on the origin of the so-called FBI Flight Path map. We also have a mystery in that the FBI was in possession of a "Spangler DZ Map" within 48 hours of the hijacking, and that map has yet to enter the public domain. 

[Chaucer 110]

So, I have did a deep dive into the "mystery" 5000 series aluminum alloy found on the tie. 

Below is a link to the so-called "Teal Sheet" which is the "defining source for the designations and chemical composition limits for wrought aluminum and wrought aluminum alloys".

https://www.aluminum.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Teal Sheet.pdf

For reference, if a range a given then that is the maximum and minimum amount found in the alloy. If a single number is provided in the composition then that is the maximum amount and the minimum is, of course, zero.

I initially narrowed the search down to 5056, 5082, 5083, 5356, 5456, and 5182.

All of them had too much manganese except one:

5082

This alloy was developed in 1963. A quick, cursory search resulted in the following applications:

• Chemical Industry
• Desalination Units
• Building and Construction Material
• Pressure Vessels
• Structural or Architectural applications
• Frames
• Railroad Rails
• Automotive components
• Domestic and Office Furniture
• Transmission Towers
• Furniture Applications
• Scaffolding

Good luck narrowing that down to any specific industry or workplace.

Feel free, everyone, to fact check my research.

[FLYJACK 710]

2 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

So, I have did a deep dive into the "mystery" 5000 series aluminum alloy found on the tie. 

Below is a link to the so-called "Teal Sheet" which is the "defining source for the designations and chemical composition limits for wrought aluminum and wrought aluminum alloys".

https://www.aluminum.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Teal Sheet.pdf

For reference, if a range a given then that is the maximum and minimum amount found in the alloy. If a single number is provided in the composition then that is the maximum amount and the minimum is, of course, zero.

I initially narrowed the search down to 5056, 5082, 5083, 5356, 5456, and 5182.

All of them had too much manganese except one:

5082

This alloy was developed in 1963. A quick, cursory search resulted in the following applications:

• Chemical Industry
• Desalination Units
• Building and Construction Material
• Pressure Vessels
• Structural or Architectural applications
• Frames
• Railroad Rails
• Automotive components
• Domestic and Office Furniture
• Transmission Towers
• Furniture Applications
• Scaffolding

Good luck narrowing that down to any specific industry or workplace.

Feel free, everyone, to fact check my research.

That was basically my conclusion,, I found that AL95MG5 is used in too many applications to narrow down to anything meaningful..

[FLYJACK 710]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Agreed. The color is inconsequential. 

The over-arching point is that we now have clarification on the origin of the so-called FBI Flight Path map. We also have a mystery in that the FBI was in possession of a "Spangler DZ Map" within 48 hours of the hijacking, and that map has yet to enter the public domain. 

[olemisscub 510]

nm

Edited November 26, 2023 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

olemiss then challenged me..

challenged you? You said you "think" it wasn't yellow underneath. I was curious myself. I asked Tom because I figured he'd know. I supplied you with his response. 

Don't mistake my tone here, because this isn't written aggressively, but merely out of curiosity. Why do you view this case as a contest among researchers? I view it as a collective effort. It's like you claiming some sort of proprietary status over coming up with the tornado. Why even mention it? Are there bonus points being rewarded for coming up with a theory? This isn't a contest. No one is challenging you or fighting with you.  Most serious researchers have each made individual contributions to the case that all add up to help tell the full story. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 510]

27 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

yep. We've all seen this. We've been battling with Eric's ridiculous notion that it wasn't a SAGE map for months now on the FB group and have used this as evidence. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by olemisscub

[Chaucer 110]

24 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I mean if you really feel it's necessary to double down on this, go ahead. My point stands that we now know more about Spangler, his role in the case, and the specific origins of the flight path map.

You're free to do with that what you will. 

Happy Holidays.

[FLYJACK 710]

3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Was this really your takeaway from us finding Spangler after 52 years? To nitpick map color? lol c'mon dude. 

What a stupid thing to say.. 

In Chaucer's summary he said...

"* When he was done with his drop analysis, he turned over his drop zone map along with the yellow flight path map over to the FBI. Thus, Spangler did not create the yellow flight path map, he simply used that map to create the very first drop zone map - one which we have never seen."

 

The map wasn't yellow.

I had concluded the map was white..  it isn't clear in that passage if Chaucer had communicated to Spangler using the term "yellow map"...  or only used in the summary...

Get it.

AND STOP WASTING MY TIME WITH THIS NONSENSE

This place is really deteriorating.

 

 

[FLYJACK 710]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

challenged you? You said you "think" it wasn't yellow underneath. I was curious myself. I asked Tom because I figured he'd know. I supplied you with his response. 

Don't mistake my tone here, because this isn't written aggressively, but merely out of curiosity. Why do you view this case as a contest among researchers? I view it as a collective effort. It's like you claiming some sort of proprietary status over coming up with the tornado. Why even mention it? Are there bonus points being rewarded for coming up with a theory? This isn't a contest. No one is challenging you or fighting with you.  Most serious researchers have each made individual contributions to the case that all add up to help tell the full story. 

Get a life, 

I wasn't criticizing you, I was pointing out that you kept the discussion going about the map colour..

You are losing it.

[olemisscub 510]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

Get a life, 

I wasn't criticizing you, I was pointing out that you kept the discussion going about the map colour..

You are losing it.

You said I "challenged you". How did I challenge you? 

[Chaucer 110]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

This place is really deteriorating.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Chaucer

[FLYJACK 710]

2 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I mean if you really feel it's necessary to double down on this, go ahead. My point stands that we now know more about Spangler, his role in the case, and the specific origins of the flight path map.

You're free to do with that what you will. 

Happy Holidays.

Double down on what?

I remembered that Spangler had already said he obtained it from SAGE and dug  up the file..

Your interview confirmed it..

What is your problem.

You two want a cookie?

 

[FLYJACK 710]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

You said I "challenged you". How did I challenge you? 

You questioned my assertion using the claim from Tom... nothing wrong wth that.

Point I was making was that YOU kept the map colour debate going.

The map colour is irrelevant other than clarifying Chaucer's summary.

 

Something is wrong wth you guys ... 

Edited November 26, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 110]

The long held belief was the SPANGLER either requested the map to be created or did it himself. We now have clarification on that. He also indicated that the map was used to create a DZ map that we have never seen.

Are you salty that you did find the guy and interview him? Is that why you nit-picked a minor detail like that color of the goddamn map? Or are you just pedantic for no reason?

[olemisscub 510]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

You questioned my assertion using the claim from Tom...

Point I was making was that YOU kept the map colour debate going.

It wasn't a debate!!! You said you thought it was a certain color but that this was due to lamination. I was curious about it myself. I sought clarification. I supplied what Tom said. It wasn't meant at ALL to challenge you or be like "durrr Flyjack is wrong na-na-na!" This is my whole point about the way you view this case. You take everything that is at all contrary to what YOU think or what YOU say as some sort of personal attack or personal affront. It's bizarre. We all greatly respect your research on the case. I can't speak for others but personally I just wish you were more of a team player and weren't so sensitive. 

[FLYJACK 710]

1 minute ago, Chaucer said:

The long held belief was the SPANGLER either requested the map to be created or did it himself. We now have clarification on that. He also indicated that the map was used to create a DZ map that we have never seen.

Are you salty that you did find the guy and interview him? Is that why you nit-picked a minor detail like that color of the goddamn map? Or are you just pedantic for no reason?

You guys have completely lost it..

I knew it was already in the file, I don't care what other's believed.

I wasn't nit picking.. I was pointing that the colour of the map was white not yellow,, when you read your summary, YOU talk about the yellow map in a way that doesn't make it clear if Spangler was referring to the correct map.