DB Cooper

[georger 244]

2 hours ago, Cola said:

Georger,

 

Psychoanalysis is by far my favorite area, and it’s hard to resist not socializing on PA in the Vortex.

 

Yes I have read the FAA stuff, I have consumed most all of the available records and am only about a day behind on my 302's.

To keep it on the case and non-social:

My question is do you know of anyone ever tracking down the FAA Chief Psychiatrist to verify the validity of his words? 

Was the FAA Chief Psychiatrist words ever placed in circulation publicly and defended as accurate?

Damn good question and funny! YES!  Sluggo (Wayne Walker) asked the same question and looked into this. Several people identified and interviewed the psychiatrist after the fact. Its somewhere in the thread - god only knows where. But Wayne and I talked about this over the phone - Wayne thought it was hilarious. As I recall, the doctor said he had issued a 'standard response' but knew none of the details of what was going on at the time! A standard FAA response, whatever that is! This is one of these time I wish Wayne was still here, to share what he found out about the doctor. Maybe you could do some poking around ... I will do an AI search. I probably have notes I made so will search my computer when I get time. This is the best I can do off the top of my head .............

Maybe somebody else has more/better on this ?  

 

Edited August 16, 2024 by georger

[Cola 52]

43 minutes ago, georger said:

Wayne thought it was hilarious. As I recall, the doctor said he had issued a 'standard response' but knew none of the details of what was going on at the time!

I'll give a look back through the thread,

My overall take on the FAA statement was that it was out of line and and way out there. Possibly this communication alone sabotaged the crew's assistance in ever checking in on Cooper or their willingness to interfere in the slightest. Maybe that statement was the bee in Rata's bonnet.

If Wayne received - I gave the standard response as an explanation then it may just have been a dismissal or evasion of Wayne's question.

However, I can't see this being truly a "standard response" given to any crew under the duress of a hijacking. That implies something much darker and I'd prefer to recognize these comments as a one off. 

[georger 244]

7 hours ago, Cola said:

I'll give a look back through the thread,

My overall take on the FAA statement was that it was out of line and and way out there. Possibly this communication alone sabotaged the crew's assistance in ever checking in on Cooper or their willingness to interfere in the slightest. Maybe that statement was the bee in Rata's bonnet.

If Wayne received - I gave the standard response as an explanation then it may just have been a dismissal or evasion of Wayne's question.

However, I can't see this being truly a "standard response" given to any crew under the duress of a hijacking. That implies something much darker and I'd prefer to recognize these comments as a one off. 

It might have been a 'standard FAA response' in Mongolia ?  They might have had a list of standard response sheets and he chose No.13 ?  I think it was an official response from an accredited person. Probably charged them the standard fee $1500-$3500/hr.

Edited August 17, 2024 by georger

[Cola 52]

13 hours ago, georger said:

However, I can't see this being truly a "standard response" given to any crew under the duress of a hijacking. That implies something much darker and I'd prefer to recognize these comments as a one off. 

I can't come to the semiotics of that relay being standard.  This has to be a one off, an off the cuff. I'd even say if that was not a fabricated relay then whoever originated it had a laps in their critical thinking, was not in their right mind - intoxicated. For the structure of that messaging to be any part standard it implies something else... that I'll not easily accept as truth without seeing proofs.  

I looked through the thread and did not come across any of Sluggo's remarks on the matter other than his pondering out loud of - What must have been going through those boys minds after hearing that.  If Sluggo spoke to this individual at the FAA and posted it maybe he did so somewhere else.

 

Of all the people involved the FAA psy was the highest authority the pilots had to answer to even superseding Nypro. The FAA psy could have had the biggest sway in the outcome of the event if they would have pressed the crew or directed them to action. Rata's integrity and unwillingness to abandon Tina may have what undermined taking any action. 

In my mind the FAA psy may have held enough power to ground the crew after the fact and even strip them of their flying privileges. I think on the whole pilots and psy don't mix well. 

 

I did find a post by Snowman that was interesting,

_____________________________________________________________

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=3083617

Also: A great document for FAA history is
the FAA Historical Chronology 1926-1996.
http://www.faa.gov/about/media/b-chron.pdf

It has good data on what type of hijacking occured when. (download it (big) and search using "hijacking" in adobe reader)
Interestingly it perpetuates the myth that Cooper was the first in a series of extortion hijacks (he wasn't)
(page 162).

One interesting thing I found had to do with various agreements over time, as to who has jurisdiction depending on where the plane is during a hijacking (ground, air etc). It varies between pilot, FAA and FBI.

During the time of the Cooper hijack, the existing agreement was that FBI had jurisdication while the plane was on the ground, with pilot at all other times, although FAA recommendations to him took precedence.

This changed in '74, to give the FAA jurisdiction from the time the doors closed, to the first door open for disembarking. They did agree that all parties would work together.

An agreement in Dec. '71 gave the pilot the responsibility for signaling whether the plane should be disabled or stormed.

So Cooper's hijack was during a period where they had not yet fully settled on procedural details of handling a hijack. (page 152)  

___________________________________________________________________

 

 

[Cola 52]

13 hours ago, georger said:

I think it was an official response from an accredited person.

 

13 hours ago, georger said:

It might have been a 'standard FAA response' in Mongolia ?  They might have had a list of standard response sheets and he chose No.13 ?  I think it was an official response from an accredited person. Probably charged them the standard fee $1500-$3500/hr.

ah - your playing in your post... ok I'll just get back to my work..

[georger 244]

4 hours ago, Cola said:

 

ah - your playing in your post... ok I'll just get back to my work..

Sluggo thought Cooper might be an east coast or Florida person: his obsession with sky marshals, south eastern and east coast flights were saturated with sky marshals, he brought up Havana, Flo said he was Latin, Cuban hair style with marcelled hair, his naming Mexico City and south-western cities as destinations,  .. ?   Some people think the plane could have reached Mexico City - it landed at Reno with plenty of fuel left The issue was never fuel but flight configurations.

Edited August 17, 2024 by georger

[Robert99 50]

On 8/17/2024 at 2:32 PM, georger said:

Sluggo thought Cooper might be an east coast or Florida person: his obsession with sky marshals, south eastern and east coast flights were saturated with sky marshals, he brought up Havana, Flo said he was Latin, Cuban hair style with marcelled hair, his naming Mexico City and south-western cities as destinations,  .. ?   Some people think the plane could have reached Mexico City - it landed at Reno with plenty of fuel left The issue was never fuel but flight configurations.

Since Cooper specified the aircraft configuration, the issue was always about fuel. 

If you read the transcripts of the communications between the aircraft and the technical people in Minneapolis, the crew was only advised when they were in the Portland area that they would have enough fuel to reach Reno.  Prior to Portland, the crew had been repeatedly passing fuel consumption and fuel onboard information to MSP.

[Cola 52]

On 8/17/2024 at 9:32 PM, georger said:

Sluggo thought Cooper might be an east coast or Florida person: his obsession with sky marshals, south eastern and east coast flights were saturated with sky marshals, he brought up Havana, Flo said he was Latin, Cuban hair style with marcelled hair, his naming Mexico City and south-western cities as destinations,  .. ?

 

A Florida person.. that would be something Jo, Larry and Cooper all being from Florida. It would be hilarious to see Coops trending as yet another - "Florida Man" headline...

I don't think Coops had much understanding on the area of operation for Sky Marshals. IMO he was just using the though of a Sky Marshal as something to attribute his further request and reinforce his position to Tina and the crew in a light manner. The bringing up of a SM was just and external decoy of his request. There is a casualness and softness to his lead to his words  - If that's a sky marshal, I don't want any more of that. (If those were his words) - the more important question to Tina would have been to ask  - are there any sky marshals on the flight. Only Tina knows what the wording was, any follow on discussion about SMs and his level of concern-tone.

Yes, V-23 was Sluggo's pet theory..

[georger 244]

17 hours ago, Cola said:

 

A Florida person.. that would be something Jo, Larry and Cooper all being from Florida. It would be hilarious to see Coops trending as yet another - "Florida Man" headline...

I don't think Coops had much understanding on the area of operation for Sky Marshals. IMO he was just using the though of a Sky Marshal as something to attribute his further request and reinforce his position to Tina and the crew in a light manner. The bringing up of a SM was just and external decoy of his request. There is a casualness and softness to his lead to his words  - If that's a sky marshal, I don't want any more of that. (If those were his words) - the more important question to Tina would have been to ask  - are there any sky marshals on the flight. Only Tina knows what the wording was, any follow on discussion about SMs and his level of concern-tone.

Yes, V-23 was Sluggo's pet theory..

" ... and he said “If that is a Sky Marshall I don’t want any more of that”, and Mucklow reassured the hijacker it wasn’t (a sky marshal) and further ‘that there are no sky marshals on this flight’."

I think Cooper exaggerated everything in the beginning to get people's attention, and follow his demands to the letter without any interference. Strict compliance is what he wanted. 

On several occasions he avoided conflict and adjusted to keep things moving according to his plan. His plan centered around time and uncertainty allowing a physical escape. That's why he sent the plane far away from himself on the ground. But, something he could not control happened and the money found at Tena Bar may be connected to that ? Or the money was never important to him and he cast it off in the process of making an escape? The hijacking itself was his primary goal . . . and satisfied if he could disappear and never be found ? 

Edited August 21, 2024 by georger

[georger 244]

Cooper bailed near Lake Oswego ?  - Dr Edwards - Part 97 ...

On August 6, 2024, the FBI released “D. B. Cooper Skyjacking Part 97”: the latest in its monthly packages of declassified, though heavily redacted, documents on the infamous Norjak case of 1971. Tucked away among the very last pages (345 through 352), there is a report from the FBI’s Seattle office, dated November 25, 1971, the day after the hijacking. The author was an FBI agent with the initials PRB: undoubtedly Paul R. Bibler, Assistant Special Agent in Charge at Seattle.

Bibler wrote inter alia as follows [my italics, and my annotations in square brackets]:

“Northwest Airlines flight log reveals that at eight zero five pm [PST], while in immediate vicinity of Portland, Oregon, captain attempted to communicate with unsub [unidentified subject] on two occasions, at which time unsub advised quote everything is OK enquote.

At eight twelve pm [PST}, while flying south of Portland, Oregon, crew reported getting some oscillation in the cabin and advised quote must be doing something with air stairs. Enquote. No further entries on log at Seattle".

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

Edited August 23, 2024 by georger

[georger 244]

Dr Edwards examines the Tena Bar Landing Scenario - and turns thumbs down. 

August 13, 2024

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the Tena Bar scenario

Edited August 24, 2024 by georger

[georger 244]

20 hours ago, georger said:

Cooper bailed near Lake Oswego ?  - Dr Edwards - Part 97 ...

On August 6, 2024, the FBI released “D. B. Cooper Skyjacking Part 97”: the latest in its monthly packages of declassified, though heavily redacted, documents on the infamous Norjak case of 1971. Tucked away among the very last pages (345 through 352), there is a report from the FBI’s Seattle office, dated November 25, 1971, the day after the hijacking. The author was an FBI agent with the initials PRB: undoubtedly Paul R. Bibler, Assistant Special Agent in Charge at Seattle.

Bibler wrote inter alia as follows [my italics, and my annotations in square brackets]:

“Northwest Airlines flight log reveals that at eight zero five pm [PST], while in immediate vicinity of Portland, Oregon, captain attempted to communicate with unsub [unidentified subject] on two occasions, at which time unsub advised quote everything is OK enquote.

At eight twelve pm [PST}, while flying south of Portland, Oregon, crew reported getting some oscillation in the cabin and advised quote must be doing something with air stairs. Enquote. No further entries on log at Seattle".

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

Just to clarify, pages 345-352 is probably the first summary report by the Seattle FBI, written at 6:28AM the morning after the hijacking, 11/25/71.  So, it would have been their understanding at the time. The reality is, times used in that report have been subject to questioning. At eight twelve pm [PST}, was 305 actually flying 'south of Portland' ? That's the whole issue.

There is considerable variance between ' Cooper landing near Orchards' vs ' Cooper landing at Lake Oswego' ! Capt Scott has Cooper jumping near Lake Merwin further north, and Capt Rataczak basically says they didnt know where they were! Tosaw has Cooper landing in the Columbia near Tena Bar. And Ulis has launched a televised search even closer to the money find location!

Didn't Rataczak say at 8:05 he could see the lights of Portland-Vancouver 'coming up' - ahead?  

 

Edited August 24, 2024 by georger

[georger 244]

I knew this would happen!  Dr Edwards says 'the diatoms' found on the money by Kaye, are Lake Oswego diatoms and not Columbia diatoms! How can we know? 

• Oswego Lake is a slow-draining and nutrient-rich lake (the technical term is “hypereutrophic”). The waters are usually somewhat opaque, thanks to the abundant population of algae. Among those algae, biologists have found periodic concentrations of diatoms: single-celled creatures of the great algae family. In 2020, researchers reported on their sampling of one $20 bill from Tena Bar; on which they had found a scattering of the shells of long-dead diatoms. To my mind, Oswego Lake would be a good candidate for a meeting place between those diatoms and the $20 bill.   https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

Will the Ingram money diatoms please stand up and tell us who they are and where they were born and the year? Is there any way to prove these are Lake Oswego diatoms and not Columbia diatoms?  Tom?  Anyone?

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by georger

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, georger said:

I knew this would happen!  Dr Edwards says 'the diatoms' found on the money by Kaye, are Lake Oswego diatoms and not Columbia diatoms! How can we know? 

• Oswego Lake is a slow-draining and nutrient-rich lake (the technical term is “hypereutrophic”). The waters are usually somewhat opaque, thanks to the abundant population of algae. Among those algae, biologists have found periodic concentrations of diatoms: single-celled creatures of the great algae family. In 2020, researchers reported on their sampling of one $20 bill from Tena Bar; on which they had found a scattering of the shells of long-dead diatoms. To my mind, Oswego Lake would be a good candidate for a meeting place between those diatoms and the $20 bill.   https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

Will the Ingram money diatoms please stand up and tell us who they are and where they were born and the year? Is there any way to prove these are Lake Oswego diatoms and not Columbia diatoms?  Tom?  Anyone?

 

One possible answer to Edwards is: different types, abundances, and chemistries of diatoms types: Lake Oswego vs Columbia River. See this: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/are-there-differences-between-HDgXhTVlQdGzlQsBLph.Mg

Keep in mind, the diatom types found on the Cooper money are early spring and summer diatom types only. Population types and abundances in the two environments probably differ. Diatom Nutrients in the two environments differ so the chemistries of diatoms in the two environments differ. See Tom's remarks about the chemistries (elemental balances) in the Cooper money diatoms he found.  Also, Tom found diatoms on some bills but not others! ?  That has yet to be explained ? . . . . .  This might  to due to the type and length of exposure .. river vs lake, time of year of an exposure, etc. ? 

If Dr Edwards is right there should be Oswego and Columbia type diatoms on the money ?  The populations in the two places differ .

Edited August 25, 2024 by georger

[Cola 52]

4 hours ago, georger said:

If Dr Edwards is right there should be Oswego and Columbia type diatoms on the money ?  The populations in the two places differ .

Diatomological mapping -similar but not exact.

[georger 244]

2 hours ago, Cola said:

Diatomological mapping -similar but not exact.

Lakes vs Rivers have different nutrient levels/chemistries etc. Diatoms are what the stew they develop in provides. (as my granddaughter veterinarian reminds me ...)   

My granddaughter tells me to remind everyone - do not feed sweet corn to rabbits! Look it up!  

ps: Emi reminds me to also share: "Avocados are really bad for rabbits too!"

Edited August 26, 2024 by georger

[Cola 52]

On 8/25/2024 at 7:53 PM, georger said:

If Dr Edwards is right there should be Oswego and Columbia type diatoms on the money ? 

 

To place an LZ in Lake Oswego you have to do more than work up distance alone, Edwards needs to overcome the comment - the lights of Portland were on the horizon. That comment as a visual reference needs to be discredited or reinterpreted to even consider an LZ in that area.

 

[georger 244]

41 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

To place an LZ in Lake Oswego you have to do more than work up distance alone, Edwards needs to overcome the comment - the lights of Portland were on the horizon. That comment as a visual reference needs to be discredited or reinterpreted to even consider an LZ in that area.

 

Edwards seems to think that rivers dont contain diatoms!  And he may be saying ' the drop and landing zone of the subject is totally unknown'. After years of working these points to death. If Edwards is going to include Oswego Lake he must also consider Merwin Lake. ?

People seem to be willing to do adopt any extreme in order to avoid the BLANK of Cooper walking south from say Orchards to Portland . . . and not leaving a message on some billboard "I was here - wake up!". People seem to be willing to go to any extreme to avoid even a theory about what might have happened between Orchards and Portland ...... unless of course he headed for Hawaii! ???

Edited August 27, 2024 by georger

[Robert99 50]

4 hours ago, Cola said:

 

To place an LZ in Lake Oswego you have to do more than work up distance alone, Edwards needs to overcome the comment - the lights of Portland were on the horizon. That comment as a visual reference needs to be discredited or reinterpreted to even consider an LZ in that area.

 

It is highly unlikely that the flight crew could see the "lights" (meaning the actual streetlights and such) of Portland.  There were three cloud layers under the airliner, and they essentially constituted an almost complete undercast.  The crew probably meant that they could see the "glow" of the Portland lights through those three cloud layers.

The airliner was 10,000 feet higher than Portland and the "glow" would be visible from a considerable distance.

I speak from personal experience on this point.  

[Cola 52]

 

8 hours ago, Robert99 said:

It is highly unlikely that the flight crew could see the "lights" (meaning the actual streetlights and such) of Portland. 

 

Remember when I said:

On 6/17/2024 at 4:37 PM, Robert99 said:

If you want to assign your own semantics to my post that support your perception of reality, I cannot stop you.

 

[Robert99 50]

I didn't say the quote that you credit me with saying in a post on 6/17/2024 at 9:37 AM.  And I don't know who did.

[georger 244]

12 hours ago, Robert99 said:

It is highly unlikely that the flight crew could see the "lights" (meaning the actual streetlights and such) of Portland.  There were three cloud layers under the airliner, and they essentially constituted an almost complete undercast.  The crew probably meant that they could see the "glow" of the Portland lights through those three cloud layers.

The airliner was 10,000 feet higher than Portland and the "glow" would be visible from a considerable distance.

I speak from personal experience on this point.  

We have been over this - endlessly. Rataczak said what he said. I take what Rataczak said at face value over your speculation, but I suspect you will continue to dominate this conversation about 'light glow' until hell freezes over - you have no reason to stop! Rataczak was there. You were not even there! But your disruption is very real. 

[Cola 52]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

I didn't say the quote that you credit me with saying in a post on 6/17/2024 at 9:37 AM.  And I don't know who did.

I don't make the headings for the DZ you should take it up with them, but I did attribute those words to me.. "Remember when I said:"

 you should know how to follow the link.

[georger 244]

Back to basics - did DB Cooper and the money survive the jump or drop ?

how much force would a 21 lb bag of money exert when hitting the ground if dropped 10,000 feet ?

Answer

To calculate the force exerted by a 21 lb bag of money hitting the ground after being dropped from 10,000 feet, we need to consider several factors:

Calculation Steps

1. Convert units:
   • 21 lbs ≈ 9.53 kg
   • 10,000 feet ≈ 3,048 meters
2. Calculate final velocity:
   The bag will accelerate due to gravity, reaching terminal velocity. Terminal velocity for a human is about 120 mph (53.6 m/s), but a compact bag of money would likely fall faster. Let's assume it reaches 150 mph (67 m/s).
3. Determine impact time:
   The impact time is very short, typically around 0.01 seconds for solid objects hitting a hard surface.
4. Apply Newton's Second Law:
   Force = Mass × Acceleration Acceleration = Change in velocity / Time F=m×(vf−vi)/tF=m×(vf−vi)/t Where:
   • m = 9.53 kg
   • v_f = 0 m/s (final velocity at impact)
   • v_i = 67 m/s (initial velocity at impact)
   • t = 0.01 s (estimated impact time)
5. Calculate the force:
   F=9.53×(0−67)/0.01=63,851NF=9.53×(0−67)/0.01=63,851N

Result

The bag of money would exert approximately 63,851 Newtons of force upon impact

. This is equivalent to about 14,355 pounds-force or 7.18 tons-force. This amount of force would easily disturb or change the packaging geometry of the money-bundles and might rupture the money container.

Considerations

• This calculation assumes ideal conditions and doesn't account for air resistance during the fall or deformation of the bag upon impact.
• The actual force could vary based on factors like the bag's shape, material, and the surface it hits.
• The impact force is significant and could cause substantial damage to both the bag and the impact surface.
• The money was attached to Cooper. If the money survived to be found with bands still intact, what does that imply about Cooper's status post-drop ?
• If Cooper money was found with rubber bands still intact does that imply that Cooper was still alive with his brains still intact and able to function and move, post drop ? 
• The status of the money indicates that Cooper is now free to travel 'to a place you would like' .

Edited August 29, 2024 by georger

[Divalent 135]

On 8/29/2024 at 3:27 PM, georger said:

[if] The money was attached to Cooper. If the money survived to be found with bands still intact, what does that imply about Cooper's status post-drop ?

Seems like something you could test. Mock up a replica, and drop it in a (very) remote area.