DB Cooper

[CooperNWO305 155]

40 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

He's about to REALLY be made a fool by the end of today. Get your popcorn ready, folks. 

I think it’s good for the small group of us who research the case to hear these details from you. However, I don’t think the Gryders of the world care. If you look at the views on Wiki, he has driven those up a lot. All the posts on FB and Reddit the past year or two have been totally eclipsed by him. If you look at who has brought publicity to the case, it’s Gryder, EU, Colbert, McCoy, Loki, Prison Break, a few documentaries, etc. It’s like PBS trying to compete with NASCAR (the legit researchers are PBS).  I have mixed feelings about it, but I guess any publicity is good within reason. 
 

Your book will be a good place to combine all of the videos you do. I for one just don’t have the time to watch much, so I rely on the summaries I read in everyone’s comments and yours too. 
 

We all know Gryder is wrong in so many ways, but if the voters weighed in, it would be Dan Gryder in a blowout. 

[FLYJACK 723]

19 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Well, but Cossey never once is quoted in the FBI Files as stating they were his chutes. Quite the opposite. He mentions Hayden multiple times in the files. 

 

I just don't really see any reason to doubt his claim that it was an NB-6 that he gave Hayden. Again, they were fairly ubiquitous at the time, and still are. Look at what deep dives you and I have done trying to find examples of this P2-B24. Yet at any given time there are 20 NB-6's on sale on ebay. What are the odds Cossey had two rare WWII bailout rigs to give Hayden? And like I said, Hayden didn't seem to think they were identical. If they were identical containers he'd have said so. 

Hayden describing them as Olive Drab isn't a big deal to me either. I own two NB-6's and if someone asked me what color they were I'd also say Olive Drab. That's the color I instinctively think of when I think of that greenish military color. 

For me the only Cossey inconsistency within the files (we can ignore everything he ever said to the media) is why both he AND Hayden state it was a 28 foot canopy when the packing card says 24. 

Give it time, you will get this...  it is beyond obvious to me. Cossey was describing HIS personal chute.

A P2-B-24 was a Pioneer sub model, a mostly civilian variant. That category was not rare, that specific P2 model may be rare today since it came out around 1939. Hayden's other chute was NOT a P2-B-24, it was something similar but a military variant being olive drab. There were others, P1, P3, P4 and military variations with other numbers.. Hayden's/Cooper's chute could have been any number of those.. not rare. So, the too rare argument doesn't apply.

Cossey would have figured out his mistake within a day or two, so he would not have claimed they were his to the FBI. He was contacted and honestly believed it was his NB6/8 and described it..

Hayden = Olive Drab with cloth Tan harness vs Cossey = Sage Green with Sage Green harness.

These inconsistencies add up,, you can dismiss them individually as errors or misunderstandings but in totality they are clear and overwhelming.

I outlined many major inconsistencies, I really don't want to keep repeating them.

A 28' flat circular vs a 24' conical...  NOT an error, completely incompatible on two levels. Cossey called it an NB8, that is NOT a 24' canopy. You can't dismiss this.

Loaning Gear to a Friend
Earlier that evening, skydiver Earl Cossey, a master rigger, received a telephone call at home. The call was from a business associate who also happened to be the manager of Sea-Tac International Airport. The airport manager asked Cossey for two backpacks and two chest-mount reserves as soon as possible but could not disclose the reason he needed them. Cossey admits he wondered about the manager’s request, “But I trusted him completely and did as I was told,” he said.

Cossey called his drop zone in Issaquah, Washington, and asked a person who was staying there to collect the rigs and hand them over to authorities. Police rushed the rigs in a patrol car from the drop zone to Sea-Tac International.

Later that evening, Cossey heard on the news that there was a hijacking in progress. He was stunned at the revelation that this was why the authorities had asked for his parachutes. “I thought, ‘Oh crap! There go my parachutes!’ ” Cossey recalled. “I was just laughing at the stupidity of that guy and thought, ‘This guy’s nuts.’”

 

Either you believe Cossey or the missing chute packing card info,,,  it can't be both.

It isn't so simple as Cossey owned the chest reserves and it was assumed he was the previous owner of Hayden's chutes.

Cossey is the only source of the NB6/8 claim, since he got the rest of his description wrong why does this have any cred...  it doesn't.

 

Anyway, I am done with this subject and 100% confident..

This will be accepted by everyone a year from now.

[FLYJACK 723]

42 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

No one ever claimed the museum chute was an NB6, so not sure of your point there.

Hayden also didn't say they were identical or that similar. He clearly described them different because they looked differently to him. 

Cossey's only inconsistency in the FBI Files from what we think we know is the canopy size. 

If you ignore everything he ever said to the media, then I don't see any reason to doubt what he told the FBI. 

Not true. The type is also inconsistent. The colour of the container, the harness v Hayden. 

Cossey's description is inconsistent with the packing card info.

 

Packing card or Cossey?? Choose wisely.

 

 

[CooperNWO305 155]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

No one ever claimed the museum chute was an NB6, so not sure of your point there.

Hayden also didn't say they were identical or that similar. He clearly described them different because they looked differently to him. 

Cossey's only inconsistency in the FBI Files from what we think we know is the canopy size. 

If you ignore everything he ever said to the media, then I don't see any reason to doubt what he told the FBI. 

How do we ignore everything he said to the media? Is it all lies? Is this the case for everyone involved, do we only use the files?

[Robert99 50]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

No one ever claimed the museum chute was an NB6, so not sure of your point there.

Hayden also didn't say they were identical or that similar. He clearly described them different because they looked differently to him. 

Cossey's only inconsistency in the FBI Files from what we think we know is the canopy size. 

If you ignore everything he ever said to the media, then I don't see any reason to doubt what he told the FBI. 

Olemiss, I am sticking by my post on this.

Have you read the posts on this site related to the parachutes since 2009?  Have you read Bruce Smith's interview with Hayden?

There were only four parachutes involved here.  Two front packs came from Hayden who said they were similar, and two chest packs came from the skydiver operation where Cossey worked.  No NB-6 rigs were involved.

Cossey may not have even known about the hijacking until the FBI finally got in touch with him. The FBI 302s indicate that they were unable to contact Cossey until early on the morning of Thanksgiving Day by which time the airliner had been on the ground at Reno for several hours.

Other than being the rigger who packed the parachutes and assembled the back packs from various military surplus items for Hayden, Cossey apparently did nothing useful to help the FBI.  Of course, he did talk to the media.  

[olemisscub 520]

 

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Not true. The type is also inconsistent. The colour of the container, the harness v Hayden. 

Cossey's description is inconsistent with the packing card info.

 

Packing card or Cossey?? Choose wisely.

 

 

You're still failing to realize that packing cards of that era don't have info about the container. A packing card would not say Pioneer AND Steinthal. 

Even if it was referring to the Cooper container, Pioneer Parachute Company made NB-6's. So why does that matter to you at all?

[FLYJACK 723]

47 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

 

You're still failing to realize that packing cards of that era don't have info about the container. A packing card would not say Pioneer AND Steinthal. 

Even if it was referring to the Cooper container, Pioneer Parachute Company made NB-6's. So why does that matter to you at all?

It could have said Pioneer and Steinthal. It only matters indirectly.. it isn't key to this at all. Cossey refers to the chute left behind as "the pioneer", if both were Pioneers why did he call only one the Pioneer. It supports the argument that Cossey was describing his NB6 and not Hayden's missing chute. The argument doesn't require this. Not all NB6's were made by Pioneer. He probably didn't refer to it as a Pioneer because his wasn't.

Key, Cossey called the canopy a "flat circular" consistent with a 28', the packing card said "conical" that is consistent with a 24'. A conical and flat circular are not the same thing, they are very different types. 

So, Cossey got nothing right according to the packing card for Hayden's missing back chute. He even called it an NB8 because he modded it for a 28' "flat circular", that is not a 24'..

Cossey's description and the packing card for the missing chute are incompatible.

This is so simple once you see it..

This incompatibility can be reconciled..

Cossey believed his personal back chutes were going to be picked up from The Loft and given to Cooper. Emrich was getting all 4 chutes when he was contacted and told they only needed the two fronts because they had secured Hayden's two back chutes.. Cossey was never aware of Hayden's back chutes being used instead of his. Cossey was contacted and told which chutes were left behind (he claims the night of the hijacking but that isn't confirmed) and he assumed it was his NB6 used by Cooper. Cossey was sincere and provided the description of HIS NB6/8 that he thought Cooper used, not Hayden's chute. Perfectly understandable from his perspective.

But he must have figured out his error within a day or so.. he just never corrected it. He continued to describe HIS personal NB6/8. He never supplies his packing records because it would expose his error.

His story with the FBI was consistent because he couldn't expose his error.. his public story was shifting, changing and contradictory.

There is no corroboration to Cossey's claim that Cooper's missing chute was an NB6/8. I don't even recall Cossey specifically claiming that chute packed for Hayden was an NB6/8. 

Hayden's missing chute was NOT a P2... those were tan mostly civilian use. There were many similar Olive Drab military versions. If you want a pair of bailout rigs for regulations, you want cheap and similar, not completely different and one customized top of the line. Makes no sense.

Bottom line, Cossey and the packing card for Hayden's missing chute are incompatible... you can't pick Cossey. He told us.. he claimed many times that the rig Cooper was his personal NB6/8.

We know Cossey lied to the media and Carr. He lied by omission to the FBI by not correcting his error and claiming he gave the FBI all his records, he didn't.

Put on your Prosecutor hat, this is an open and shut case. 

Gather all the pieces and run it through the gears for a while I am confident you will see it.

 

[olemisscub 520]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

 Cossey was never aware of Hayden's back chutes being used instead of his. Cossey was contacted and told which chutes were left behind (he claims the night of the hijacking but that isn't confirmed) and he assumed it was his NB6 used by Cooper. Cossey was sincere and provided the description of HIS NB6/8 that he thought Cooper used, not Hayden's chute.

 

But this doesn't fit the evidence. Your timeline seems messed up. 

Cossey doesn't appear in the FBI's files until 6:22 PM on 11-26-71. Now, it may have been somewhat earlier in the afternoon, but it's not like it was that morning or the previous day. I'm sure it was pretty close to the time that the urgent NITEL was fired off. In that first appearance he says that it's an NB6. 

EARLIER that day, or more likely even on the 25th, he gives interviews to the Oregonian and Seattle P-I and straight up says they came from Renton and that he made them. 

So, the first time we have Cossey EVER commenting on record about the hijacking, he's acknowledging that they were Hayden's. 

Edited December 16, 2024 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 723]

15 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

But this doesn't fit the evidence. Your timeline seems messed up. 

Cossey doesn't appear in the FBI's files until 6:22 PM on 11-26-71. Now, it may have been somewhat earlier in the afternoon, but it's not like it was that morning or the previous day. I'm sure it was pretty close to the time that the urgent NITEL was fired off. In that first appearance he says that it's an NB6. 

EARLIER that day, or more likely even on the 25th, he gives interviews to the Oregonian and Seattle P-I and straight up says they came from Renton and that he made them. 

So, the first time we have Cossey EVER commenting on record about the hijacking, he's acknowledging that they were Hayden's. 

Yeah, I know all that.. that timeline does not conflict..   Cossey claimed he was called the night of the hijacking, that is not documented and may or may not be true with Cossey but when he gave the description of his personal chute he thought his chute was used not Haydens. Not everything is documented.

You'd expect Cossey to have mentioned Hayden in that description..

There is no indication Cossey was aware of Hayden BEFORE he gave his first description.

He must have been made aware within a day or so, 25th or 26th. Like I said.

Another thing Cossey would have checked his records to confirm chutes he packed for Hayden six months earlier.. no mention.

 

You need to address the conflicts between Cossey's description and the packing card for the missing chute.. they are too strong.. not the same rig.

 

Maybe, take my side and try to argue it (to yourself), I think you might see it differently.

 

There is no corroboration of Cossey's claim that Hayden's missing chute was an NB6/8... only conflicts.

 

 

[olemisscub 520]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

There is no indication Cossey was aware of Hayden BEFORE he gave his first description.

 

It was literally published in two DIFFERENT newspapers before he ever spoke to the FBI. 

Why would Cossey have had a "personal parachute" without D-rings? The dude was a skydiver. Why would Cossey have even owned an NB-6 as a "personal parachute"? Again, he was a world class skydiver. They weren't jumping with NB-6's, modified or otherwise. 

The ONLY inconsistency is between the canopy description provided by Hayden and Cossey (who both said 28 foot) and the packing card. 

I can't explain that discrepancy, but I simply can't follow your logic here because why would his personal chute be such a basic piece of shit with no D-rings?

 

[georger 247]

4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

It was literally published in two DIFFERENT newspapers before he ever spoke to the FBI. 

Why would Cossey have had a "personal parachute" without D-rings? The dude was a skydiver. Why would Cossey have even owned an NB-6 as a "personal parachute"? Again, he was a world class skydiver. They weren't jumping with NB-6's, modified or otherwise. 

The ONLY inconsistency is between the canopy description provided by Hayden and Cossey (who both said 28 foot) and the packing card. 

I can't explain that discrepancy, but I simply can't follow your logic here because why would his personal chute be such a basic piece of shit with no D-rings?

 

What's the context? 

Never mind.

Edited December 16, 2024 by georger

[FLYJACK 723]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

It was literally published in two DIFFERENT newspapers before he ever spoke to the FBI. 

Why would Cossey have had a "personal parachute" without D-rings? The dude was a skydiver. Why would Cossey have even owned an NB-6 as a "personal parachute"? Again, he was a world class skydiver. They weren't jumping with NB-6's, modified or otherwise. 

The ONLY inconsistency is between the canopy description provided by Hayden and Cossey (who both said 28 foot) and the packing card. 

I can't explain that discrepancy, but I simply can't follow your logic here because why would his personal chute be such a basic piece of shit with no D-rings?

 

You don't know that is a fact. Where did this description come from??? not Emrich... 

"5:57 AM on the 25th, there is a duplicate at 5:10 AM,  Where did this detailed description for both front chutes come from..  Cossey?... Cossey claimed he was contacted when the plane landed in Reno, Unless that description came from somebody else but who would know the chute colour and the shroud colour unless it was opened before being given to Cooper. "

Cossey was interviewed was in person on the 26th,,, you think they didn't talk to him on the phone before an in person interview.. 

"Hey Coss FBI here,, come in on the 26th for an in person interview but don't tell us anything about the chutes till then.. mmmkay.."

now, you are throwing out strawman stuff.. you want me to explain why Cossey had something you think he shouldn't.

Cossey claimed it was his personal chute, he was a pilot and instructor.. Who knows. You don't know what he had or why.

He did have an NB6 no D rings.. and he did jump with it, he claimed. It was a Cooper replica. It was not a Pioneer. Gave it to Tosaw.

No, you are still wrong, a conical is not a flat circular, they are different types of canopies. Why do you keep ignoring one of the most important facts. Either Cossey is wrong or the packing card is, there is no reconciling it.

Edited December 16, 2024 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 340]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Why would Cossey have had a "personal parachute" without D-rings?

 

Flyjack confirms he was a pilot and instructor. If he flew loads for the dz, he would need a bailout rig. As an instructor, it was not an uncommon practice to wear a bailout rig while putting out static-line students. To wear his full sport rig with front reserve would be bulky, cumbersome, and in the way. Especially in a smaller plane it would be easier to wear the bailout rig, put out the s/l students and ride the plane down.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by dudeman17

[FLYJACK 723]

Yes he was a pilot. 

[FLYJACK 723]

On 7/30/2023 at 1:18 PM, olemisscub said:

Yes, Cossey is a known liar, etc. So don't listen to Cossey's description. Listen to NORMAN HAYDEN'S description. You know, the guy who literally had them in his possession the DAY of the hijacking. Cossey is remembering a random parachute he packed from five months earlier. Who cares what he has to say about it. He's irrelevant. 

The only thing inconsistent with the initial description that HAYDEN gave and the packing card is the canopy size. That's it. 

Yes, this is the point,, 

The only source for an NB6/8 was Cossey.. his description is irrelevant. Why defend it with so many inconsistencies?

 

And this is fascinating...

Cossey says..

He was called a second time the evening of the hijacking. (his claim, unconfirmed)

The back chutes were his personal chutes taken from Issaquah. (They were not used Hayden's were)

The NB8 was a Pioneer. He never said that to the FBI. (He only referred to the other one as a Pioneer, odd, if both were Pioneers,, why not say B-4 vs NB8)

He calls it an NB8.. does this often. ( An NB8 modified "larger" is inconsistent with a 24' canopy as indicated on the packing card)

He claims the one left in the plane was a B-4 sport freefall rig.. (The chute left behind was a bailout rig not a freefall rig, Cossey is describing HIS personal chute)

He calls the NB-8 an emergency bailout rig for pilots, (Cossey was a pilot makes sense that he had at least one emergency bailout rig, the other was a freefall rig inconsistent with Hayden's rigs)

He claims the NB8 was significantly thinner than the B-4 freefall rig. (Hayden's chute left in the plane was a P2-B-24, a very very thin civilian rig,, it is NOT significantly if at all thicker than a 28' NB6/8, Cossey was describing his two personal rigs)

He never mentioned moving the pull handle to the other side on the NB8, only that it sits flatter.

He claims anyone with skydiving experience would have taken the other B-4 rig (freefall), the difference was significant.. (For his description of his personal rigs they were very different but he wasn't describing Hayden's chutes that were sent to the plane, Hayden said they were the same/similar. Hayden's rigs would not have been significantly different, he wanted a cheap pair to satisfy regulations, not actually use them)

 

 

Cossey claimed many times that the back chute left behind was returned to him. Since Hayden's chutes were used and not Cossey's he would still have both the rigs.. He can claim the one left in the plane was returned because he always had it in his possession. He must have still had the NB8 bailout rig he thought Cooper used as well, but he can't claim he has it.

 

I think he was telling us exactly what he thought the night of the hijacking..

He was contacted and asked for 4 rigs two fronts and two backs, he said ok you can get mine from Issaquah. Emrich was getting them when he was contacted and asked to only send the two fronts as they had secured the two backs from Hayden. Cossey was not aware of this, he believed his personal back chutes were used. He was called (that night, he claims) and when the remaining back chute was described he described the missing chute, his personal NB6/8, not Hayden's. His other back chute was actually a Pioneer B-4 freefall rig and he later claimed it was returned to him because it was never used, he always had it.

 

Another Cossey mess..

Cossey claimed the NB6/8 was Sage Green nylon container and harness, this is accurate for an NB6/8.

Hayden claimed it was Olive Drab container and tan cloth harness. Inconsistent with an NB6/8 and that both his chutes were the same/similar, except colour.

The NB6 was a 1950's era chute. So, about 15 years old in 1971. Not very old to fade significantly.

Today those NB6's are about 70 years old and most have faded, hard to identify the colour today. Comparing the fading 70 years later vs 15 is not reasonable.

 

There is big difference between Sage Green and Olive Drab on a 15 year old container. Hayden was not describing an NB6/8.

Cossey was describing his two personal rigs, a B-4 freefall rig and a modified NB6/8 pilot bailout rig. He was NOT describing Hayden's two back bailout rigs used for NORJAK. He probably learned of his error on the 25th but never corrected it with the FBI. Cossey never supplied his packing records because they would have exposed his error.

 

 

[DBorDanCooperFan 0]

23 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

No Dan Gryder, when you read this.. that wasn't Cooper's canopy or container.. easily debunked... and McCoy wasn't Cooper, you didn't solve the case you made a fool of yourself on national media. 

 

The McCoy kids seem sincere but don't know the two hijacking cases very well. McCoy was not Cooper.

Gryder probably already realized months ago the parachute isn't DBC's.  This parachute is his youtube cash cow, he's clearly sleazy enough to never admit defeat and to keep using the "deep govt" angle he's peddling which probably will still attract the "fringe" crowd

I posted on reddit yesterday that Gryder claims the rig in his possession (if there was a possibility of it really being DBC's, it would be in the FBI's possession) is "one in a billion" due to it being modified.  Yet, I posted a source that stated in the 50s and 60s modifying military surplus rigs were "extremely common".  Let's go with the near impossible hypothetical that DBC gets positively identified as McCoy, he probably owned multiple parachute rigs, no guarantee he used the rig Gryder is shoving down our throats

More interesting, a tabloid dailynews article from a few days ago came out where Gryder claims the kids claims their DNA was a partial match to the DNA on the tie.  This is likely untrue for multiple reasons but the main one being this story was true it would be all over the media as the first suspect DNA link ever in the DBC case

[olemisscub 520]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The only source for an NB6/8 was Cossey.. his description is irrelevant. Why defend it with so many inconsistencies?

 

Because you’ve not provided me any reason to believe that it WASN’T an NB-6 that he provided Hayden. 

You’re making many of your arguments based on the various contradictory lies that Cossey told the media. This is why I just ignore what he says to the media once he begins saying things that are inconsistent with his FBI testimony. The first inconsistency is in that 1976 article where he says the chute was returned to him and is a prized possession or whatever.

Ignoring his media lies, he never claims to the FBI in the files that these were his parachutes and never expresses any confusion about the sequence of events. You’ve got one 302 where the agent calls Cossey the “owner” of the chutes but you know as well as I do that the parachute 302’s are whacked out sometimes. So nowhere does Cossey claim to be the owner of the chutes or anything like that. 

We shouldn’t expect Hayden to use the term NB-6, so Cossey being the only person to use that term shouldn’t matter. It doesn’t negate the possibility that his “military parachute” was an NB-6. Hayden didn’t describe the tan chute as a P2 or whatever, so why are you holding him to such a high standard? I don’t think Hayden even used the term D-rings. He just called them “hooks.” So we shouldn’t expect Hayden to give some ultra accurate description of parachuting matters. 

The color discrepancy also isn’t enough for me to not believe it was an NB-6. I own three “green” bailout rigs. If I wasn’t looking directly at them I couldn’t tell you what color the containers and harnesses are for them. I know the one behind me in my videos is Sage Green (or at least I think that’s Sage Green), but I couldn’t tell you if the harness is Sage or OD.

And truthfully, the actual container, be at an NB6 or NB8 or some other military bailout rig, doesn’t matter when it comes to debunking folks like Gryder. Regardless of the actual container, what matters is that we know for certain that it didn’t have capewells or d-rings or some enlarged container or a modified ripcord location

The only major inconsistency, as far as I can tell, is the description of the canopy. Why do BOTH Hayden AND Cossey call it a 28 foot canopy?

So either they are both wrong on the canopy size or that isn’t the packing card from Cooper’s chute. 

Mark speculates that Hayden delivered a 26 and 28 footer to Cossey and that Cossey just pocketed the 28 footer and replaced it with a cheap 24 and didn’t want to admit to it (yet wasn’t going to lie on the packing card).

We know the container isn’t going to have D-rings or capewells, so its actual make isn’t insanely critical. All that would remain of it these days in the wild are the metal pieces. But the canopy DOES matter since those aren’t going to degrade to the extent that the container would. 

The fact that Cossey never seemed to supply the FBI with the serial numbers is most troubling because we can’t 100% verify that the 24 footer was Cooper’s. I assume it was, but it would be nice to 100% know. 

Wonder if his son would have that log book? I’ll get Nicky to ask him. 

Edited December 16, 2024 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 520]

14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

He did have an NB6 no D rings.. and he did jump with it, he claimed. It was a Cooper replica. It was not a Pioneer. Gave it to Tosaw.

 

It’s my understanding from Tosaw’s family that Tosaw commissioned it to be made from Cossey. It wasn’t Cossey’s replica. Tosaw wanted to know exactly what he was looking for when he was dragging the river.  

[georger 247]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Because you’ve not provided me any reason to believe that it WASN’T an NB-6 that he provided Hayden. 

You’re making many of your arguments based on the various contradictory lies that Cossey told the media. This is why I just ignore what he says to the media once he begins saying things that are inconsistent with his FBI testimony. The first inconsistency is in that 1976 article where he says the chute was returned to him and is a prized possession or whatever.

Ignoring his media lies, he never claims to the FBI in the files that these were his parachutes and never expresses any confusion about the sequence of events. You’ve got one 302 where the agent calls Cossey the “owner” of the chutes but you know as well as I do that the parachute 302’s are whacked out sometimes. So nowhere does Cossey claim to be the owner of the chutes or anything like that. 

We shouldn’t expect Hayden to use the term NB-6, so Cossey being the only person to use that term shouldn’t matter. It doesn’t negate the possibility that his “military parachute” was an NB-6. Hayden didn’t describe the tan chute as a P2 or whatever, so why are you holding him to such a high standard? I don’t think Hayden even used the term D-rings. He just called them “hooks.” So we shouldn’t expect Hayden to give some ultra accurate description of parachuting matters. 

The color discrepancy also isn’t enough for me to not believe it was an NB-6. I own three “green” bailout rigs. If I wasn’t looking directly at them I couldn’t tell you what color the containers and harnesses are for them. I know the one behind me in my videos is Sage Green (or at least I think that’s Sage Green), but I couldn’t tell you if the harness is Sage or OD.

And truthfully, the actual container, be at an NB6 or NB8 or some other military bailout rig, doesn’t matter when it comes to debunking folks like Gryder. Regardless of the actual container, what matters is that we know for certain that it didn’t have capewells or d-rings or some enlarged container.

The only major inconsistency, as far as I can tell, is the description of the canopy. Why do BOTH Hayden AND Cossey call it a 28 foot canopy?

So either they are both wrong on the canopy size or that isn’t the packing card from Cooper’s chute. 

Mark speculates that Hayden delivered a 26 and 28 footer to Cossey and that Cossey just pocketed the 28 footer and replaced it with a cheap 24 and didn’t want to admit to it (yet wasn’t going to lie on the packing card).

We know the container isn’t going to have D-rings or capewells, so its actual make isn’t insanely critical. All that would remain of it these days in the wild are the metal pieces. But the canopy DOES matter since those aren’t going to degrade to the extent that the container would. 

The fact that Cossey never seemed to supply the FBI with the serial numbers is most troubling because we can’t 100% verify that the 24 footer was Cooper’s. I assume it was, but it would be nice to 100% know. 

Wonder if his son would have that log book? I’ll get Nicky to ask him. 

Well the obvious question is: did the FBI ever reject a chute, when in fact it was Cooper's chute, because of Cossey ?  Or is the chute Cooper used and landed with still out there? 

[olemisscub 520]

8 minutes ago, georger said:

Well the obvious question is: did the FBI ever reject a chute, when in fact it was Cooper's chute, because of Cossey ?  Or is the chute Cooper used and landed with still out there? 

I don’t believe so because I’ve compiled a cache of all the times Cossey looked at canopies or chutes and they were all eliminated for reasons that we all agree on and are irrelevant to the current discussion.

For example, he rejected packs for having D-rings or capewells on them. Also rejected some for being seat pack chutes. He rejected canopies for being silk or being orange, etc.

[FLYJACK 723]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Because you’ve not provided me any reason to believe that it WASN’T an NB-6 that he provided Hayden. 

You’re making many of your arguments based on the various contradictory lies that Cossey told the media. This is why I just ignore what he says to the media once he begins saying things that are inconsistent with his FBI testimony. The first inconsistency is in that 1976 article where he says the chute was returned to him and is a prized possession or whatever.

Ignoring his media lies, he never claims to the FBI in the files that these were his parachutes and never expresses any confusion about the sequence of events. You’ve got one 302 where the agent calls Cossey the “owner” of the chutes but you know as well as I do that the parachute 302’s are whacked out sometimes. So nowhere does Cossey claim to be the owner of the chutes or anything like that. 

We shouldn’t expect Hayden to use the term NB-6, so Cossey being the only person to use that term shouldn’t matter. It doesn’t negate the possibility that his “military parachute” was an NB-6. Hayden didn’t describe the tan chute as a P2 or whatever, so why are you holding him to such a high standard? I don’t think Hayden even used the term D-rings. He just called them “hooks.” So we shouldn’t expect Hayden to give some ultra accurate description of parachuting matters. 

The color discrepancy also isn’t enough for me to not believe it was an NB-6. I own three “green” bailout rigs. If I wasn’t looking directly at them I couldn’t tell you what color the containers and harnesses are for them. I know the one behind me in my videos is Sage Green (or at least I think that’s Sage Green), but I couldn’t tell you if the harness is Sage or OD.

And truthfully, the actual container, be at an NB6 or NB8 or some other military bailout rig, doesn’t matter when it comes to debunking folks like Gryder. Regardless of the actual container, what matters is that we know for certain that it didn’t have capewells or d-rings or some enlarged container or a modified ripcord location

The only major inconsistency, as far as I can tell, is the description of the canopy. Why do BOTH Hayden AND Cossey call it a 28 foot canopy?

So either they are both wrong on the canopy size or that isn’t the packing card from Cooper’s chute. 

Mark speculates that Hayden delivered a 26 and 28 footer to Cossey and that Cossey just pocketed the 28 footer and replaced it with a cheap 24 and didn’t want to admit to it (yet wasn’t going to lie on the packing card).

We know the container isn’t going to have D-rings or capewells, so its actual make isn’t insanely critical. All that would remain of it these days in the wild are the metal pieces. But the canopy DOES matter since those aren’t going to degrade to the extent that the container would. 

The fact that Cossey never seemed to supply the FBI with the serial numbers is most troubling because we can’t 100% verify that the 24 footer was Cooper’s. I assume it was, but it would be nice to 100% know. 

Wonder if his son would have that log book? I’ll get Nicky to ask him. 

I have provided lots of evidence,, Cossey is the ONLY source for an NB6/8.

There are serious descriptive inconsistencies between Cossey v Hayden and Cossey v packing card.

There is actually nothing on the packing card that matches...

You still ignore the packing card's conical vs Cossey's flat circular... completely incompatible canopy type,, a conical is consistent with a 24' and flat circular a 28'. That is one of the most powerful inconsistencies.

If Cossey was describing the chute he packed for Hayden why is it incompatible with the packing card. Both can't be right.

and Cossey customized it for a 28' calling it an NB8, that is not a container for a 24' canopy.

Both Cossey and the packing car can't be correct,, it is impossible. 

So, based on all of Cossey's comments and conflicting descriptions it is clear that the packing card is correct and Cossey was not. Limiting what he said to the FBI only does not solve the inconsistencies. His comments outside the FBI tell us exactly what he thinks.

and the chute canopy may not have even been white.. it was a bailout chute, no D rings or capewells..

Gryder's chute and canopy are still not Cooper's... not even close

Gryder's container is a B-12 with a B-4 harness, D rings, Capewells and the pull moved to the other side, None of that is Cooper's, Gryder's canopy is a 1943 Hayes non ripstop... Cooper's was a 1960 Steinthal ripstop.. s/n 60-9707... also not even close.

It would be nice to have Cossey's packing records.

The take away is that Cooper's chute may have been found and rejected but we will never know know..

There was an orange and white chute found in the South Fork Lewis River about a mile from the Heisson store.. rejected because of orange/white but Cossey's claim the canopy was all white is unreliable. This was right in Cooper's LZ sweet spot.. perhaps a flood washed it into the River...

another..

 

We will never know....

Edited December 16, 2024 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 723]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

It’s my understanding from Tosaw’s family that Tosaw commissioned it to be made from Cossey. It wasn’t Cossey’s replica. Tosaw wanted to know exactly what he was looking for when he was dragging the river.  

There might be a video of Cossey wearing that chute..

[FLYJACK 723]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I don’t believe so because I’ve compiled a cache of all the times Cossey looked at canopies or chutes and they were all eliminated for reasons that we all agree on and are irrelevant to the current discussion.

For example, he rejected packs for having D-rings or capewells on them. Also rejected some for being seat pack chutes. He rejected canopies for being silk or being orange, etc.

But it might have not have been white if we toss Cossey's claims,, and Hayden said he never looked inside at the canopies..  he assumed white, maybe white and orange.

Cooper's chute might not have been all white.

All white canopy is not a hard fact.

Edited December 16, 2024 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 723]

Cossey with NB8 in 2009 video...

He gave Tosaw the Cooper replica in the 80's, either a different one here or maybe he borrowed it for this film..

Cossey says,,

I provided two parachutes one was an NB8 and the other a Pioneer sport parachute.. (false)

note to Gryder,,,   Never says the pull was moved to the other side. Ripcord flat so hard to find.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 723]

Cossey claimed Cooper's pilot chute was 18"....