DB Cooper

[olemisscub 521]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, it actually does negate an NB6.. Cossey was the only source for the claim.. nothing corroborates it.

Hayden's description doesn't match an NB6.. Olive drab with tan cloth harness.

Hayden said the chutes were the same/similar..  An NB6 is nothing like his Pioneer.

I think Hayden called it military because it was Olive Drab. That tan one was a civilian version. There were many models that were very similar.

 

Hayden's original description doesn't say tan cloth harness. That's a clear later conflation. I think you know that. 

"An NB6 is nothing like his Pioneer"

Holy hyperbole!

40+ years later in someone's memory, an NB-6 and that P-2 would absolutely be considered "similar" aside from their color. They're both boring military bailout rigs with similar features on the containers.  

If they were literally the same model aside from color, like if he had essentially received a set, I think Hayden would have said that. 

Additionally, you're very hung up on this Sage Green/Olive Drab thing. Before I got into the specific nomenclature of this case, I wouldn't have known there was a "military" type color called "sage green."  Everything "green" in the military is just called "olive drab" colloquially. "Go get your OD's on, men." Hayden using the term "olive drab" to describe something that was potentially "sage green" is a total nothingburger. I'm sure most of the lurkers reading this would agree with me on that. 

[FLYJACK 725]

42 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Hayden's original description doesn't say tan cloth harness. That's a clear later conflation. I think you know that. 

"An NB6 is nothing like his Pioneer"

Holy hyperbole!

40+ years later in someone's memory, an NB-6 and that P-2 would absolutely be considered "similar" aside from their color. They're both boring military bailout rigs with similar features on the containers.  

If they were literally the same model aside from color, like if he had essentially received a set, I think Hayden would have said that. 

Additionally, you're very hung up on this Sage Green/Olive Drab thing. Before I got into the specific nomenclature of this case, I wouldn't have known there was a "military" type color called "sage green."  Everything "green" in the military is just called "olive drab" colloquially. "Go get your OD's on, men." Hayden using the term "olive drab" to describe something that was potentially "sage green" is a total nothingburger. I'm sure most of the lurkers reading this would agree with me on that. 

We don't know that harness it is a conflation. That is your speculation.

No they aren't similar...  an NB6 is not similar to Hayden's Pioneer. If you got a pair of bailout rigs to meet regs, you would get two similar, not completely different.

There were maybe a dozen WW2 era rigs that are different models but very similar.

Olive Drab and Sage Green are not the same.. In 1971 a nylon NB6 was maybe 15 years old, it would not have faded.. it would not be mistaken for a much older faded Olive Drab.

Before you got into the case you didn't have a military parachute.. you make a huge assumption that Hayden didn't know what Olive Drab was.. not valid.

Today, an NB6 might be 60 years old, then maybe 15.

So, now you have to discount 4 things Hayden said to make it an NB6...  um, nope

You want it both ways, cherry picking parts from Hayden's description and from Cossey's...

 

This all works with only one error in Hayden's description, maybe from him maybe from the agent.

 

In my assessment of all the evidence, with all the conflicts the 28 attributed to Hayden is the single item that if an error makes everything fit.

To make it an NB^ you have to have a half dozen errors..

1 error vs 6...  I go with the 1

I am 99% that Hayden's missing rig was not an NB6.

knowing the model isn't a big deal but it would mean that the FBI using Cossey were looking for the wrong rig. That is the take away.

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 725]

15 hours ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

Speaking of parachutes, my latest episode is out now. DB Cooper asked for parachutes with my good friend Mike Davis.

https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-tf5k6-1781253

Enjoy!

Agree, he pulled, he survived with possibly some injury.

Cooper got non-steerable emergency back bailout rigs, probably did not expect that. If you bring your own you can guarantee a freefall rig.

Unlikely Cooper used an NB6.. (based on Cossey)

There were trackers at the time, not GPS but radio beepers. They ping on an emergency frequency for 24-36 hours.

If he pulled at 2000 ft his drift would be less than a mile. Since the FP map has 1 mile error then Cooper would have landed very close to the FP....

It was not Ted Braden. He was the badass of badasses, Cooper wasn't. Ted has dimples, less hair, crooked mouth and a very winkled forehead. Cooper's presence and demeanour does not fit Braden. Cooper was unmemorable.

Agree, Cooper had many miltary jumps.. not Braden level but more than a few..

Cunningham's FP timing is incorrect. Ignore it.

Sketch B is the closest likeness.. no question. 

Cooper jumped between the Lewis R and Battleground. Plane pitched at 8:09, that was Cooper reaching the bottom of the stairs. Oscillations increased violently culminating in a pressure bump, That is within minutes of the reported oscillations. 8:11-8:15 at most..

The case is solved, just nobody can put a suspect on the plane.

YES, either bomb was real or if fake made by somebody who knew explosives.

Money was not planted. No way..  Nobody buries cash in that environment and close proximately to the River, high water line. Many better places and ways to cache it if Cooper wanted to.

No, the Government doesn't need to get money from hijacking planes. The CIA has lots of ways to make money.

Elsinore ghost, Cameron was embellishing a person he met... walked it back, it is in the 302's.

Cooper asked for notes and matchbook because of the writing on them.. not prints. Cooper did care about leaving prints.

Weirdly, I heard females prefer violent true crime.. Cooper was a strategist..

Barb was NOT Clara... Letters are too short for stylometry,, random noise. If Clara was legit then the initial contact with Gunther was legit, at least a real person, hoaxer or Cooper. It is just really strange that a hoaxer(s) would disappear for ten years make contact and not ask for money. 

Skip was not Cooper, his massive forehead creases eliminate him. No way... 

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 725]

7 hours ago, georger said:

Dr. Edwards: A must read -   D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: oscillations and pressure bump revisited

 

 

No.

Edited December 24, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 521]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

We don't know that harness it is a conflation. That is your speculation.

Hardly speculation. It's quite obvious. There is not a more obvious conflation in the FBI Files. It's a verbatim conflation. 

 

[olemisscub 521]

If you got a pair of bailout rigs to meet regs, you would get two similar, not completely different.

Fist, if you got them just to meet regs, you wouldn't care what you are given. Second, how are they completely different? You need to explain this. You're acting like we're talking about the difference in a car and a truck. We're not. They are both 4 pin pull containers. 

Olive Drab and Sage Green are not the same.. In 1971 a nylon NB6 was maybe 15 years old, it would not have faded.. it would not be mistaken for a much older faded Olive Drab.

Before you got into the case you didn't have a military parachute.. you make a huge assumption that Hayden didn't know what Olive Drab was.. not valid.

I'm assuming Hayden doesn't know what "SAGE GREEN" is and you're assuming that he did. My assumptions is much safer. Olive drab was a ubiquitous term for "military green". So whether it's a slightly lighter shade or a darker green doesn't matter. A lay person would just call it "olive drab" regardless. You're splitting hairs on the color thing to argue your point. 

Today, an NB6 might be 60 years old, then maybe 15.

And apparently they weren't in vogue for skydivers buying conversions. B-4's were much preferred. 

You want it both ways, cherry picking parts from Hayden's description and from Cossey's...

I don't see any way that Cossey's description differs from Hayden's aside from color. And like I said, I will NEVER concede to your argument that Hayden had to know the difference in "sage green" and "olive drab".You're acting like "sage green" is part of everyone's common verbiage. It's not. Not even remotely close. But "olive drab" IS part of common verbiage for "military green". I'd have been surprised if he actually described the container as sage green if it was in fact sage green. 

 

[FLYJACK 725]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

Hardly speculation. It's quite obvious. There is not a more obvious conflation in the FBI Files. It's a verbatim conflation. 

 

That doesn't prove conflation..

His chutes may have had the same quick fit harness..

[FLYJACK 725]

3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

If you got a pair of bailout rigs to meet regs, you would get two similar, not completely different.

Fist, if you got them just to meet regs, you wouldn't care what you are given. Second, how are they completely different? You need to explain this. You're acting like we're talking about the difference in a car and a truck. We're not. They are both 4 pin pull containers. 

Olive Drab and Sage Green are not the same.. In 1971 a nylon NB6 was maybe 15 years old, it would not have faded.. it would not be mistaken for a much older faded Olive Drab.

Before you got into the case you didn't have a military parachute.. you make a huge assumption that Hayden didn't know what Olive Drab was.. not valid.

I'm assuming Hayden doesn't know what "SAGE GREEN" is and you're assuming that he did. My assumptions is much safer. Olive drab was a ubiquitous term for "military green". So whether it's a slightly lighter shade or a darker green doesn't matter. A lay person would just call it "olive drab" regardless. You're splitting hairs on the color thing to argue your point. 

Today, an NB6 might be 60 years old, then maybe 15.

And apparently they weren't in vogue for skydivers buying conversions. B-4's were much preferred. 

You want it both ways, cherry picking parts from Hayden's description and from Cossey's...

I don't see any way that Cossey's description differs from Hayden's aside from color. And like I said, I will NEVER concede to your argument that Hayden had to know the difference in "sage green" and "olive drab".You're acting like "sage green" is part of everyone's common verbiage. It's not. Not even remotely close. But "olive drab" IS part of common verbiage for "military green". I'd have been surprised if he actually described the container as sage green if it was in fact sage green. 

 

Nope... weak speculations

 

[olemisscub 521]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

That doesn't prove conflation..

His chutes may have had the same quick fit harness..

stop. We've got Hayden on multiple occasions talking about how the pioneer is the one he wore because he liked the harness to it better than the harness that was on the OD one. 

[FLYJACK 725]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

stop. We've got Hayden on multiple occasions talking about how the pioneer is the one he wore because he liked the harness to it better than the harness that was on the OD one. 

Where is that,, I have seen that he likes the quick fit harness. Not that he disliked the other one.

Hayden's recovered chute has a newer updated green harness..

Edited December 24, 2024 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 50]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Hayden's original description doesn't say tan cloth harness. That's a clear later conflation. I think you know that. 

"An NB6 is nothing like his Pioneer"

Holy hyperbole!

40+ years later in someone's memory, an NB-6 and that P-2 would absolutely be considered "similar" aside from their color. They're both boring military bailout rigs with similar features on the containers.  

If they were literally the same model aside from color, like if he had essentially received a set, I think Hayden would have said that. 

Additionally, you're very hung up on this Sage Green/Olive Drab thing. Before I got into the specific nomenclature of this case, I wouldn't have known there was a "military" type color called "sage green."  Everything "green" in the military is just called "olive drab" colloquially. "Go get your OD's on, men." Hayden using the term "olive drab" to describe something that was potentially "sage green" is a total nothingburger. I'm sure most of the lurkers reading this would agree with me on that. 

OleMiss,

THERE WAS NO NB-6 PARACHUTE INVOLVED IN THE COOPER HIJACKING!  

That is the whole story right there!  Just ignore everything that Cossey claimed!

Why are you so obsessed with this?

[FLYJACK 725]

4 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

OleMiss,

THERE WAS NO NB-6 PARACHUTE INVOLVED IN THE COOPER HIJACKING!  

That is the whole story right there!  Just ignore everything that Cossey claimed!

Why are you so obsessed with this?

He demands proof of negation,,,  which isn't a rational standard. It is goal seeking.

But he has the burden of proof backwards, there is no corroboration of Cossey's NB6 claim.. only conflicts. Burden of proof is on the affirmative.

He wants it to be an NB6.... that was very very unlikely.

We can't say for 100% certain because we don't know the model of the missing chute but there is nothing to indicate it was an NB6 other than Cossey's claim and there is contradicting evidence.. 

He is speculating to create doubt that all the contradictory evidence is just a series of errors...  

It is Rorschach, just see the evidence you want that fits your imagination.

 

[FLYJACK 725]

Rataczak did tell Soderlind at the time he thought the oscillations were Cooper jumping. 

Also 5 or 10 minutes after 8:05 is 8:10-8:15.

Rataczak is trying to pinpoint the location using a range based on marked times..

From 8:05 last contact with Cooper to his call with Soderlind. "not yet reached Portland proper" refers to the Soderlind call not the oscillations/jump..

If that call was "shortly/minutes?" after Cooper jumped and before Portland and in the suburbs,, then Cooper's jump was before the suburbs of Portland.

Now, what exactly did he mean by the suburbs of Portland..

Edited December 24, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 521]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

It is Rorschach, just see the evidence you want that fits your imagination.

 

My dude, I'm not the one INVENTING scenarios that require us to dismiss plain English readings of the case evidence (we haven't been able to contact Cossey all night = well, they must have talked to him but nobody ever told the boss) and then proclaiming them to be truthful because "no one else has an explanation, so mine is the ultimate truth". You're confusing EVERYONE to hell and back with this four dimensional calculus equation that you've worked out that you think can explain away a couple of discrepancies.

How about this: There is NO ERROR in Hayden OR Cossey's description because we don't know the provenance of that second packing card. Just because it lacks an explanation doesn't require it to have come from the Cooper rig. 

I've not found ONE INSTANCE of Cossey being inconsistent with the FBI until he starts saying dumb shit to Larry. In his FIRST INTERVIEW (read: documented/non-imaginary) with the FBI, he says it was an NB-6 that he put a 28 foot canopy in that he constructed for Norman Hayden. Hayden tells the FBI it was a military type parachute with a 28 foot canopy. He didn't give a specific designation for the Museum Chute so why should we expect him to state that it was an NB-6 or B-4 or P-2? Then, Tosaw comes along in 1983 and asks for a replica. Cossey gives him a 28 footer in a NB-6....but that of course, according to you, is Cossey continuing to maintain this lie he constructed on the 26th of November because of...reasons.

All of us on this page who've tried to follow your theory should earn a PhD from our efforts. It requires cherry picking, rationalizing, ignoring, obfuscating, and an 8 page flow chart.

Your whole thought process is that Cossey was mistaken and described his own backpacks during some as yet undocumented (read: imaginary) interview and then when he gave his ACTUAL documented interview a day later he decided to lie and keep the erroneous description he already provided them (again, undocumented), yet despite that lie he DID decide to tell the truth this time about their provenance. So Cossey lives this supposed lie with the FBI and media for decades but then 30+ years later during an obviously bullshitted tall tale, you've cherry picked something from that bullshit tall tale that has literally no other corroboration within the case evidence (Cossey receiving a call on the night of the hijacking) and are retroactively injecting that into the case evidence from 1971. You may have saddled us with a PhD but you get a gold medal for the mental gymnastics it has taken to get you to that place. 

This isn't complicated, people. There IS indeed a discrepancy between what Hayden AND Cossey said and what is written on this packing card that we think MAY have come from Cooper's rig, but we don't have to reinvent the wheel because of this discrepancy. 

I'll stick with Cossey AND Hayden telling truthful stories and giving truthful descriptions of NORMAN HAYDEN'S rigs in 1971 as they appear in the FBI files. I'll then continue to ignore the VERIFIED bullshit that Cossey started saying in 2003. 

If I'm ever proven wrong on this then I'll actually admit it, which I doubt you ever would. But as far as I'll continue to be concerned, it was an NB-6 because Cossey said two days after the hijacking that it was an NB-6 he packed for Norman Hayden and because he packed an NB-6 for Richard Tosaw. Absent any ACTUAL evidence to the contrary, I'll go with it being an NB-6, because the case evidence never says it was ANYTHING other than an NB-6. Period. 

Edited December 24, 2024 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 521]

I received several super high resolution photographs of the aircraft at Reno from the University of Nevada-Reno. This one shows the "damage" done to the stairs in really good clarity. 

[olemisscub 521]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

OleMiss,

THERE WAS NO NB-6 PARACHUTE INVOLVED IN THE COOPER HIJACKING!  

That is the whole story right there!  Just ignore everything that Cossey claimed!

Why are you so obsessed with this?

Because it's in the literal case evidence from 1971 and there is no other evidence of it being anything else. There is no evidence of Cossey lying about the parachutes until 1976 in a media story. Flyjack is having to literally INVENT an undocumented interview to establish Cossey as being a liar in 1971. It didn't happen. No evidence for it. It's an invention. 

Edited December 24, 2024 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 725]

44 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Because it's in the literal case evidence from 1971 and there is no other evidence of it being anything else. There is no evidence of Cossey lying about the parachutes until 1976 in a media story. Flyjack is having to literally INVENT an undocumented interview to establish Cossey as being a liar in 1971. It didn't happen. No evidence for it. It's an invention. 

NB6 is a claim by Cossey, a claim is not a fact where I come from... 

That claim is contradicted by the packing card and Hayden... you know evidence.

Since we have exactly ZERO corroboration for Cossey's claim it is worthless.

I don't have to invent anything.

You must have some bias here because you aren't being rational about this issue.

[olemisscub 521]

43 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

NB6 is a claim by Cossey, a claim is not a fact where I come from... 

That claim is contradicted by the packing card and Hayden... you know evidence.

Since we have exactly ZERO corroboration for Cossey's claim it is worthless.

I don't have to invent anything.

You must have some bias here because you aren't being rational about this issue.

So what corroboration do we have that Hayden's description is correct? His statement contradicts with the  packing card too. Is it worthless as well?

And Cossey's claim is only "contradicted by Hayden" due to container color. Forgive me for not putting much weight into someone's verbiage for a particular shade of green.  

My only bias is for the case evidence. I'm sticking to case evidence that has not yet been proven false. Case files say NB-6. Until shown otherwise, I'm sticking to it. 

You're overturning evidence from the case based on incomplete information because you DO NOT KNOW if that packing card came from Cooper's rig. It's an educated guess. 

[FLYJACK 725]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

So what corroboration do we have that Hayden's description is correct? His statement contradicts with the  packing card too. Is it worthless as well?

And Cossey's claim is only "contradicted by Hayden" due to container color. Forgive me for not putting much weight into someone's verbiage for a particular shade of green.  

My only bias is for the case evidence. I'm sticking to case evidence that has not yet been proven false. Case files say NB-6. Until shown otherwise, I'm sticking to it. 

You're overturning evidence from the case based on incomplete information because you DO NOT KNOW if that packing card came from Cooper's rig. It's an educated guess. 

Has your account been hacked?

You keep making absurd claims.

 

You discard claims that are not contradicted by evidence then you accept claims as fact because they are not disproven when there are contradictions.. have your cake and eat it too strategy..

pretzel logic..

 

Cossey's claim IS NOT FACT.. it is NOT corroborated.. IT IS contradicted by Hayden and the packing card.

Cossey LIED about his records..

More than enough to toss out Cossey's claim..

If you want to accept it, go ahead. I DON'T CARE.

Your position is irrational.

 

Edited December 25, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 521]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Your position is irrational.

 

You're continuing to ignore the fact that we DO NOT know the provenance of that card. It's provenance would have to be established with certainty before it would be admitted in court as evidence. An assumption isn't enough. All of this is predicated on that card being from Cooper's rig. None of us know if it is or isn't. 

If a car store sold two cars to a person on the same date, and then both of those cars were stolen, and when one was found it had two car registrations in the glove box from the same date as the original sale, then sure, we could assume that the second car registration was from the still missing car, but it's not a guarantee. And it's especially not a guarantee if it differs from the memory of both the owner and the car salesman. 

I'm exercising caution here.

[olemisscub 521]

16 hours ago, georger said:

Dr. Edwards: A must read -   D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: oscillations and pressure bump revisited

 

 

Edwards seems unaware that the copycat hijackings also produced pressure bumps when the hijackers jumped. 

[FLYJACK 725]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

You're continuing to ignore the fact that we DO NOT know the provenance of that card. It's provenance would have to be established with certainty before it would be admitted in court as evidence. An assumption isn't enough. All of this is predicated on that card being from Cooper's rig. None of us know if it is or isn't. 

If a car store sold two cars to a person on the same date, and then both of those cars were stolen, and when one was found it had two car registrations in the glove box from the same date as the original sale, then sure, we could assume that the second car registration was from the still missing car, but it's not a guarantee. And it's especially not a guarantee if it differs from the memory of both the owner and the car salesman. 

I'm exercising caution here.

It isn't caution, it is not being realistic... Caution is NOT accepting Cossey's claim.

I am not ignoring anything. 

We aren't in court. This is the investigation stage..

Problem with your analogy is that both of Hayden's rigs were packed by Cossey May 21, 1971.. both cards are accounted for and marked Cossey May 21,1971. One rig was recovered and one is missing. One card matches the found rig and one card is missing a rig.. The card without a rig must belong to Hayden's missing rig. 

The only way that card doesn't belong to Hayden's missing rig is if there were 3 back chutes..  we know that didn't happen.

When you have conflicting info you look for the point of least resistance,, If only one thing, Hayden's 28 foot attribution was some type of error then everything else fits.

 

Edited December 25, 2024 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 341]

A couple questions:

The good reserve, the one the FBI has...

1. Did either Cossey or Emrich ever ask to get that back?

2. Are there pictures or documentation of it's packing card? I'd be curious what the last repack date on it was.

Edited December 25, 2024 by dudeman17

[FLYJACK 725]

7 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

A couple questions:

The good reserve, the one the FBI has...

1. Did either Cossey or Emrich ever ask to get that back?

2. Are there pictures or documentation of it's packing card? I'd be curious what the last repack date on it was.

1. not documented.

2. yes, documentation no images and I also considered some conflation but only 24' ripstop and rigger matches.

[dudeman17 341]

Thank you for that. Owner, Seattle Sky Sports, so that's not Cossey's, that belongs to the dropzone, most likely one of the student reserves. I would've guessed that repack cycles in that era would've been 90 days, but someone posted something here recently that indicated it might be 60 days. So it's either in date or just out of date, meaning it was currently in service.