DB Cooper

[olemisscub 510]

14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Problem with your analogy is that both of Hayden's rigs were packed by Cossey May 21, 1971.. both cards are accounted for and marked Cossey May 21,1971. One rig was recovered and one is missing. One card matches the found rig and one card is missing a rig.. The card without a rig must belong to Hayden's missing rig. 

The only way that card doesn't belong to Hayden's missing rig is if there were 3 back chutes..  we know that didn't happen.

I've got that in my analogy: "when one was found it had two car registrations in the glove box from the same date as the original sale."

And that's not the ONLY way. C'mon. That's like Ulis saying the ONLY way the money got to Tena Bar was from Cooper landing there, so we should change the entire flight path. Just because you or I fail to come up with an alternate solution doesn't mean there aren't any. 

In my analogy, Cossey is a car salesman. What do car salesman do? They sell cars. What do riggers do? They rig parachutes. It's unlikely those were the only two parachutes he packed on May 21st (which was a Friday fwiw). Cossey could have been filling out multiple cards at the same time and inadvertently folded one within the other and put both inside the museum chute. 10 minutes later and he's staring at this reserve he's packing and wondering where the card went. "Am I imagining things? Didn't I just write a card for this rig?" That sort of stuff. It's an unlikely scenario but it's still a possibility. 

Now don't go getting all upset with me for offering an alternate scenario. I STILL consider it a high probability that the card came from Cooper's rig. 

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

Thank you for that. Owner, Seattle Sky Sports, so that's not Cossey's, that belongs to the dropzone, most likely one of the student reserves. 

That makes sense, especially given the patch sewn on it. "SSS # 5 COSS" So maybe he had several numbered student reserves. That also checks out with the dummy chute being grabbed inadvertently. Emrich is asked to provide chest reserves and he goes to where the cheapest stuff is: the training chutes, some functional, others apparently not. We have Emrich on record saying he figured he'd never see them again so he just grabbed the cheapest things laying around. 

[Robert99 50]

1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

Thank you for that. Owner, Seattle Sky Sports, so that's not Cossey's, that belongs to the dropzone, most likely one of the student reserves. I would've guessed that repack cycles in that era would've been 90 days, but someone posted something here recently that indicated it might be 60 days. So it's either in date or just out of date, meaning it was currently in service.

In the 1950s era, I am fairly sure the repack interval was 60 days for everything except maybe a "chair" parachute which may have had a longer repack interval.

Somewhere in the 1960s or so (basically the time frame that the new para-commanders came on the scene), and as newly designed and manufactured civilian parachutes started hitting the market for emergency parachutes usage, studies were made of the required repack intervals and those intervals were increased in several steps.

The repack interval for modern civilian emergency parachutes may be as long as 6 months at the present time.

[dudeman17 339]

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

the patch sewn on it. "SSS # 5 COSS" So maybe he had several numbered student reserves.

That patch is interesting. Yes the '#5' would be consistent with student gear. That 'M... Johnson' written on it is likely the previous owner. But that the patch says both 'SSS' and 'Coss' is interesting. I've always been of the understanding that Emrich was the dz owner and that Cossey was his hired rigger. Student training is bread and butter for the dz business, so the dz runs the school. But that the patch also says 'Coss' makes me wonder, was he partners with Emrich in the business?

 

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

That also checks out with the dummy chute being grabbed inadvertently. Emrich is asked to provide chest reserves and he goes to where the cheapest stuff is: the training chutes, some functional, others apparently not. We have Emrich on record saying he figured he'd never see them again so he just grabbed the cheapest things laying around. 

Some dz's are owned by non-jumping pilots. It's a flying business, and they can fly a lot and still be at home. If Emrich is such, then maybe. But if Emrich is a jumper and instructor, there is no way in hell that he mistakenly grabs that dummy and doesn't know what it is. Ain't happening. My thought is that, especially after learning that the backs are pilot rigs and can't accommodate reserves anyways, yeah, he grabs the cheapest stuff, including that dummy, intentionally. But he wouldn't want the FBI to know that. Why do any of us know that? When the plane lands in Reno, that thing is gone, and that fact should have remained unknown. Why would Cossey blab that to a reporter? I'm sure Emrich had words with him about that, and his statement 'I didn't realize it at the time' is CYA. I also don't buy that they didn't know a hijacking was occurring. Parachutes are specialty devices, you need training and experience to use them. Cossey and Emrich are not going to lend out rigs just for the asking. The flight service guy had to at least explain something like 'I dunno, but there's a jetliner sequestered on the tarmac and the FBI is involved'.

-----------------

8 hours ago, Robert99 said:

studies were made of the required repack intervals and those intervals were increased in several steps.

The repack interval for modern civilian emergency parachutes may be as long as 6 months at the present time.

Yes. It was 120 days for quite a while, but a few years ago it went to 180 days. Some countries have it at a year.

[FLYJACK 698]

18 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I've got that in my analogy: "when one was found it had two car registrations in the glove box from the same date as the original sale."

And that's not the ONLY way. C'mon. That's like Ulis saying the ONLY way the money got to Tena Bar was from Cooper landing there, so we should change the entire flight path. Just because you or I fail to come up with an alternate solution doesn't mean there aren't any. 

In my analogy, Cossey is a car salesman. What do car salesman do? They sell cars. What do riggers do? They rig parachutes. It's unlikely those were the only two parachutes he packed on May 21st (which was a Friday fwiw). Cossey could have been filling out multiple cards at the same time and inadvertently folded one within the other and put both inside the museum chute. 10 minutes later and he's staring at this reserve he's packing and wondering where the card went. "Am I imagining things? Didn't I just write a card for this rig?" That sort of stuff. It's an unlikely scenario but it's still a possibility. 

Now don't go getting all upset with me for offering an alternate scenario. I STILL consider it a high probability that the card came from Cooper's rig. 

It is absurd.. you can always create doubt in anything with enough imagination.

There are reports that Cooper checked the cards,, that would explain the card found in the wrong pocket.

But, you of all people should know that you don't just accept an unsubstantiated claim as fact, especially when there is contradictory evidence.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It is absurd.. you can always create doubt in anything with enough imagination.

But, you of all people should know that you don't just accept an unsubstantiated claim as fact, especially when there is contradictory evidence.

It is absurd.. you can always create doubt in anything with enough imagination.

Like you are doing with Cossey's statement from Nov 26, 71? 

But, you of all people should know that you don't just accept an unsubstantiated claim as fact, especially when there is contradictory evidence.

Like you are doing with Cossey's bullshit claims from 2003+ that he received a phone call that night?

 

Edited December 26, 2024 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 510]

13 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

That patch is interesting. Yes the '#5' would be consistent with student gear. That 'M... Johnson' written on it is likely the previous owner. But that the patch says both 'SSS' and 'Coss' is interesting. I've always been of the understanding that Emrich was the dz owner and that Cossey was his hired rigger. Student training is bread and butter for the dz business, so the dz runs the school. But that the patch also says 'Coss' makes me wonder, was he partners with Emrich in the business?

 

One of the earliest articles lists him as President of Seattle Sky Sports, so I guess he and Emrich were partners to some degree. 

I'll attach an image of an interview Emrich gave a few days after the event that may explain your other issues. Hopefully you can read it.  

 

[FLYJACK 698]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

It is absurd.. you can always create doubt in anything with enough imagination.

Like you are doing with Cossey's statement from Nov 26, 71? 

But, you of all people should know that you don't just accept an unsubstantiated claim as fact, especially when there is contradictory evidence.

Like you are doing with Cossey's bullshit claims from 2003+ that he received a phone call that night?

 

No,

I don't need for those claims to be true. They support an explanation for Cossey's error, not facts.

We test claims against other evidence,,, Cossey's description of Hayden's  missing rig fails when tested against other evidence. However, Cossey's later claims that he was describing HIS rig fits.

False equivalency..  

Your logic is messed up and inconsistent, you accept Cossey in one instance when there are conflicts but then reject it later when it fits. 

Then you strawman it by asserting the later claims are necessary to question Cossey's early description. False.

Layers of deception..

Be very careful Ryan, I have undisclosed information that will make you look really bad.

I am really tired of this nonsense. You clearly have some bias that has overcome your objectivity. I think you actually believe what you are saying, but it is not logical, that tells me it an emotional argument.

Believe what you want I don't want to participate in an irrational discussion.

Edited December 26, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

57 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Be very careful Ryan, I have undisclosed information that will make you look really bad.

 

Are you legitimately that hideous of a person to be threatening me over an internet debate? 

You're going to dox me like you did to Ulis? I mean, knock yourself out. I don't have any arrests on my record for you to laud over my head. 

[FLYJACK 698]

7 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Are you legitimately that hideous of a person to be threatening me over an internet debate? 

You're going to dox me like you did to Ulis? I mean, knock yourself out. I don't have any arrests on my record for you to laud over my head. 

No, not dox, silly

I have case information that will make you look ridiculous.

But calling me hideous is duly noted... it indicates your frame of mind.

Edited December 26, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, not dox, silly

I have case information that will make you look rediculous.

Well that's fine then. I don't care about looking ridiculous if I'm proven to be wrong on something. I welcome it. The more accurate information there is in this case, the better. 

[olemisscub 510]

29 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

But calling me hideous is duly noted... it indicates your frame of mind.

I mean, would that not be hideous behavior if you had indeed been legitimately threatening me? I didn't call you hideous dude. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 698]

30 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Well that's fine then. I don't care about looking ridiculous if I'm proven to be wrong on something. I welcome it. The more accurate information there is in this case, the better. 

You need to challenge your own bias and logic....  because you have some things very wrong.

Being wrong isn't a big deal but using that ignorant position to attack others is.

Take a step back and re-evaluate.

I know you can do better.

Edited December 26, 2024 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I mean, would that not be hideous behavior if you had indeed been legitimately threatening me? I didn't call you hideous dude. 

Nobody is hideous here. Its just people working a  very complicated problem with incomplete evidence. Its no wonder different people come out with different conclusions. That is expected!  This has already come to be one of the very best discussions, ever to occur in any DB Cooper forum - ever. I hope you are all aware of that. 

Happy holidays to all and congratulations!

Edited December 27, 2024 by georger

[FLYJACK 698]

DO NOT accept Cunningham's timeline, it is NOT correct. He is out by 2 minutes at the Columbia.. Do NOT let this misinformation become case evidence. This case is tough enough already.

and the number of bills was estimated at 290/$5800, they did NOT find more bills they identified more serial numbers, that it NOT the same thing..  Originally they did not identify 280 complete bill numbers then find more. The estimated 280 bills, they were not all complete serial numbers. All they did was complete some of the unidentified serial numbers using fragments. They did not add to the 280.

They did not account for all 300 bills. One packet was smaller. Likely some eroded but can't rule out a few were missing. Not likely, but possible.

It is likely there were 3 packets of 100 bills each $2000 = $6000 but they did not account for all of them,, and did not fully identify all the (280) serial numbers.

Also, the Skychef matchbook...

Tosaw interviewed Tina and says in his book that she grabbed them from a cabinet when Cooper's matchbook ran out. While Tosaw does not get absolutely everything correct this may be the source of the Skychef matches and not Cooper. 

Weather.. 

There is no precise weather/wind data for Cooper's jump time and location,, we have general reports some distance and time away.. The FBI weather data was applied as a proxy, it was not precise. Best indication was the wind in the area was shifting between SSE to SSW around that time.

Edited December 28, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

and the number of bills was estimated at 290/$5800, they did NOT find more bills they identified more serial numbers, that it NOT the same thing..  Originally they did not identify 280 complete bill numbers then find more. The estimated 280 bills, they were not all complete serial numbers. All they did was complete some of the unidentified serial numbers using fragments. They did not add to the 280.

They did not account for all 300 bills. One packet was smaller. Likely some eroded but can't rule out a few were missing. Not likely, but possible.

It is likely there were 3 packets of 100 bills each $2000 = $6000 but they did not account for all of them,, and did not fully identify all the (280) serial numbers.

 

Brian had testing done on the wadded clumps he still has. This was around 2017. He said these fragments and wads contained exactly 20 additional numbers, not 19 or 21, but 20. I'll ask him for those serials, or partial serials, and we can see where they land with the known serials recovered. 

[olemisscub 510]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Also, the Skychef matchbook...

Tosaw interviewed Tina and says in his book that she grabbed them from a cabinet when Cooper's matchbook ran out. While Tosaw does not get absolutely everything correct this may be the source of the Skychef matches and not Cooper. 

 

A discrepancy I've also been curious about. When there is a conflict, I try to always go with the earliest statement when there is no other corroboration. Tina's 302 says "he had another book of matches". It's hard to get "I got up and found him some more matches" from that statement. She also describes the matchbook. That likely wouldn't have been pertinent info to include if it was just a matchbook she supplied him with. Lastly, I go with the 302 because why would a heavy smoker like Cooper commit a hijacking with a mere handful of matches left in a single matchbook? Surely he was planning to smoke both on the plane and during his escape. Two matchbooks makes sense. 

I'll have to go through Tosaw's narrative again, but off the top of my head the matches contradict with the 302's and Cooper's drink order contradicts the 302's. I believe there are a few other things too. Oh, he has the passengers being moved up much too early. Tina says she only moved them up after they landed and were taxiing to the isolated runway. 

[FLYJACK 698]

6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

A discrepancy I've also been curious about. When there is a conflict, I try to always go with the earliest statement when there is no other corroboration. Tina's 302 says "he had another book of matches". It's hard to get "I got up and found him some more matches" from that statement. She also describes the matchbook. That likely wouldn't have been pertinent info to include if it was just a matchbook she supplied him with. Lastly, I go with the 302 because why would a heavy smoker like Cooper commit a hijacking with a mere handful of matches left in a single matchbook? Surely he was planning to smoke both on the plane and during his escape. Two matchbooks makes sense. 

I'll have to go through Tosaw's narrative again, but off the top of my head the matches contradict with the 302's and Cooper's drink order contradicts the 302's. I believe there are a few other things too. Oh, he has the passengers being moved up much too early. Tina says she only moved them up after they landed and were taxiing to the isolated runway. 

Matches were ubiquitous back then.. you could pick them up anywhere, having 1 book wouldn't be a factor.

302's are written from agents notes so they aren't precise.

and..

Tina getting them from a cabinet isn't a typical error, it was either completely made up or true.

I do lean slightly toward true but wouldn't bet on it.. if it wasn't true then Tosaw was outright lying, I can see an error or misunderstanding but not an outright lie.. there was nothing to gain by it.

[Robert99 50]

14 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Matches were ubiquitous back then.. you could pick them up anywhere, having 1 book wouldn't be a factor.

302's are written from agents notes so they aren't precise.

and..

Tina getting them from a cabinet isn't a typical error, it was either completely made up or true.

I do lean slightly toward true but wouldn't bet on it.. if it wasn't true then Tosaw was outright lying, I can see an error or misunderstanding but not an outright lie.. there was nothing to gain by it.

Tina's story about the match books is probably completely true.  In the 1971 time frame, Skychef provided meal service for numerous airlines (probably most of them) and included cigarettes (a small pack of four) and a small book of matches with each meal.  Skychef undoubtedly provided their airline customers with plenty of those matches for anyone who needed a match.

Somewhere a few years ago, if my memory is correct, Tina indicated that Cooper's original small book of matches was from a small school that advertised such things as GED courses and similar things.  It was basically a mail in type school that advertised extensively on small match books similar to the Skychef match books.

I don't remember exactly when smoking was stopped on the airlines but it was probably in the mid-1970s.

[FLYJACK 698]

7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Brian had testing done on the wadded clumps he still has. This was around 2017. He said these fragments and wads contained exactly 20 additional numbers, not 19 or 21, but 20. I'll ask him for those serials, or partial serials, and we can see where they land with the known serials recovered. 

The TBAR serial numbers are listed in the FBI files, there are 315 bill SN's listed but many are partials that means two partial numbers could have been one bill.

The 280 was an estimate..  there were reports one packet was smaller than the other two.

Later, partial serial numbers were combined or deciphered and a bill serial number completed, not new bills found.

There were not 300 bill's fully identified.

This has been a conflation of two different measures.. the bill estimate of 280 and bill SN's confirmed. You can't add 20 new serial numbers to the bill estimate.

Confirming 20 bills later does not add to the total number of bills it adds to the bill SN's completed.

Edited December 29, 2024 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 149]

23 hours ago, olemisscub said:

A discrepancy I've also been curious about. When there is a conflict, I try to always go with the earliest statement when there is no other corroboration. Tina's 302 says "he had another book of matches". It's hard to get "I got up and found him some more matches" from that statement. She also describes the matchbook. That likely wouldn't have been pertinent info to include if it was just a matchbook she supplied him with. Lastly, I go with the 302 because why would a heavy smoker like Cooper commit a hijacking with a mere handful of matches left in a single matchbook? Surely he was planning to smoke both on the plane and during his escape. Two matchbooks makes sense. 

I'll have to go through Tosaw's narrative again, but off the top of my head the matches contradict with the 302's and Cooper's drink order contradicts the 302's. I believe there are a few other things too. Oh, he has the passengers being moved up much too early. Tina says she only moved them up after they landed and were taxiing to the isolated runway. 

That stance is an absolute. Deciding to go with the 302 sometimes and not others is speculative. And if we go with earliest commentary then it is not just the 302, we have crew notes and other info. This just seems like a loose method. We have the advantage/disadvantage of all these people being alive while we were studying this. Alive and available. It’s not like we are combing through Civil War records. It’s a technique to do what you are doing, but it seems absolute. 

[CooperNWO305 149]

On 12/28/2024 at 10:48 AM, FLYJACK said:

DO NOT accept Cunningham's timeline, it is NOT correct. He is out by 2 minutes at the Columbia.. Do NOT let this misinformation become case evidence. This case is tough enough already.

and the number of bills was estimated at 290/$5800, they did NOT find more bills they identified more serial numbers, that it NOT the same thing..  Originally they did not identify 280 complete bill numbers then find more. The estimated 280 bills, they were not all complete serial numbers. All they did was complete some of the unidentified serial numbers using fragments. They did not add to the 280.

They did not account for all 300 bills. One packet was smaller. Likely some eroded but can't rule out a few were missing. Not likely, but possible.

It is likely there were 3 packets of 100 bills each $2000 = $6000 but they did not account for all of them,, and did not fully identify all the (280) serial numbers.

Also, the Skychef matchbook...

Tosaw interviewed Tina and says in his book that she grabbed them from a cabinet when Cooper's matchbook ran out. While Tosaw does not get absolutely everything correct this may be the source of the Skychef matches and not Cooper. 

Weather.. 

There is no precise weather/wind data for Cooper's jump time and location,, we have general reports some distance and time away.. The FBI weather data was applied as a proxy, it was not precise. Best indication was the wind in the area was shifting between SSE to SSW around that time.

Cunningham’s flight path highlights how the group on Facebook does not question each other, and therefore someone makes a statement and then everyone agrees because they don’t want to lose their coalition. Vordhal got a pass, the tie, the flight path, Skip Hall. Many more. The social relationships and protecting those relationships have become more important than doing research and asking questions. Luckily it is confined to the Facebook groups. But if you question certain members of the group, be prepared to have your theories attacked by all of them. 
 

Oh, and the PhD students used the bad data and info from that flight path. Not their fault. But elevating him to the expert on the flight path was a bad move. 

Edited December 29, 2024 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 698]

Notes in the matchbook...  that is why he took it.

 

[CooperNWO305 149]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Notes in the matchbook...  that is why he took it.

 

I’ve been of the belief for years that he may have written notes in the matchbooks. The only reason I’ve come up with was some homage to the movie North by Northwest. I’d be curious to hear other reasons he may have written in the matchbooks. 

Edited December 30, 2024 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 698]

10 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I’ve been of the belief for years that he may have written notes in the matchbooks. The only reason I’ve come up with was some homage to the movie North by Northwest. I’d be curious to hear other reasons he may have written in the matchbooks. 

The argument was always that he took the matchbooks because of fingerprints.. nope

That is false.. he left many potential sources for prints (cig butts, cups, magazine, tie,,, etc..) and even offered money to the stews.. Cooper did not care about prints, probably had prints obscured.

If he didn't care about prints then why take the matchbook he had brought...  the only reason I can think of is it had writing in it and that is supported in the files. 

Smokers often used matchbooks to write notes.. before smartphones

Edited December 30, 2024 by FLYJACK