DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Ckret wrote:
For Cooper to have gone into the Columbia 305 would have had to cross the Columbia. This, according to the flight crew didn't happen, they felt Cooper jumped before this point.

Why did the crew "feel" that way? There's nothing in the air for them to feel...So guessing: Based on a time perception from some last landmark? Based on getting some radio traffic from PDX tower? Did they see the Columbia thru 60% cloud cover?

I'm not asking you to do any more work...but somehow you're remembering some detail. Did they just say that exact quote "I felt like we were still North of the Columbia" and there was no followup in the interview?

I'm actually wondering what you're remembering when you say they "felt" ...or is that Ckret felt? it's unclear.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

This message is targeted for skydivers only:

If whuffos feel they must respond, that’s fine, but the skydivers have the expertise I am seeking.

Please suspend all you know or think you know about NORJAK for just a minute. That includes the things you know or think you know about Cooper. For this exercise , just pretend you (with your personality, prejudices, world view, etc.) are Cooper.

Now, please answer these questions:

1) If you were going to request an altitude to jump from a 727-51, what altitude would that be? Put any number here, no constraints, but please list any rationale for your response (safety, it gives me time to get stable, it gets me to the ground more quickly, etc)

2) Would you express that altitude as MSL or AGL? Again, any number, but state rationale.

3) Would you plan for freefall and if so how long? Time? Distance? Both? Just express it clearly for this whuffo… no, WHUFFO.

Now quit being Cooper.

4) Is there anything about Cooper’s altitude request that strikes you as “odd” or “improper”? He requested 10,000 feet. (Whether he stated MSL, AGL or didn’t specify is lost at this time.) If your answer is “yes,” Please explain (in detail).

You may answer here, or by e-mail n467us@charter.net.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Sluggo_Monster

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[Orange1 0]

Quote

1) If you were going to request an altitude to jump from a 727-51, what altitude would that be? Put any number here, no constraints, but please list any rationale for your response (safety, it gives me time to get stable, it gets me to the ground more quickly, etc)

2) Would you express that altitude as MSL or AGL? Again, any number, but state rationale.

3) Would you plan for freefall and if so how long? Time? Distance? Both? Just express it clearly for this whuffo… no, WHUFFO.

Now quit being Cooper.

4) Is there anything about Cooper’s altitude request that strikes you as “odd” or “improper”? He requested 10,000 feet. (Whether he stated MSL, AGL or didn’t specify is lost at this time.) If your answer is “yes,” Please explain (in detail).

ok, my answers fwiw - as i have v low jump #s:

1. Dunno, but maybe 10K is because most jump planes were cessnas in those days and 10K was kind of the norm? If Cooper was an experienced skydiver from the area, of course, he might be fairly familiar with how landmarks looked from 10K and that may have been a factor.

2. AGL, because that's how it's always stated.

3. Depends what you wanna do. If you think you can get your spot pretty well, it would make more sense to freefall a good part of the way, though you'd probably want to open a bit higher than usual just in case something was odd with the canopy the FBI gave you. If you weren't sure where you were going to end up you'd want to open fairly high to give yourself enough time to find a decent landing spot.... hmmmmm though that would depend how steerable those rounds were. But in any case I can't imagin doing a clear and pull from a 727 at night in that weather would be first choice for anyone.

4. Quite the contrary. 10K sounds like a perfectly normal altitude - for a skydiver. In fact until you posted your questions, I'd never even thought twice about the altitude.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 247]

Quote

For Cooper to have gone into the Columbia 305 would have had to cross the Columbia. This, according to the flight crew didn't happen, they felt Cooper jumped before this point.

305 didnt cross the Columbia ?

Cooper jumped before the Columbia?

They FELT?

[georger 247]

Quote

Don't forget to include the forward throw an object will have leaving an aircraft in flight. Also depending on the body position of a human in free fall they tend to scoot and slide all over the place,

___________________________________________

Can you explain this a little - elaborate...
Thanks.

• Quote

[georger 247]

4) Is there anything about Cooper’s altitude request that strikes you as “odd” or “improper”? He requested 10,000 feet. (Whether he stated MSL, AGL or didn’t specify is lost at this time.) If your answer is “yes,” Please explain (in detail).

_____________________________________________

His original request was for below 10,000 ft.

What does this say from a skydiver's point of view?
Couldnt make up his mind? Wasn't a skydiver?
Mispoke?

[georger 247]

4. Quite the contrary. 10K sounds like a perfectly normal altitude - for a skydiver. In fact until you posted your questions, I'd never even thought twice about the altitude.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

4. Quite the contrary. 10K sounds like a perfectly normal altitude - for a skydiver. In fact until you posted your questions, I'd never even thought twice about the altitude.

________________________________________

His original request was for BELOW 10,000 ft.
What's your reaction to that?

[Ckret 0]

you guys are being way to analytical, replace "felt" with "it was their belief" that Cooper jumped.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

His original request was for below 10,000 ft.

What does this say from a skydiver's point of view?
Couldnt make up his mind? Wasn't a skydiver?
Mispoke?

Where did you get this tid-bit?

Sluggo

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[georger 247]

Quote

snowmman,

Since no one else wants to play my game (or they haven’t had the opportunity), I’ll give you a big clue.

I spent the night last night with these charts. I knew something was wrong with the timing of the jump point (I have suspected it since I started on my “Flight Path Model” back in March). I knew it was wrong, but I had no way to prove it. A 727 can’t fly at 97 knots. Then Ckret sent the chart and it is right there.

You remember that old “shaggy-Dog story, where the punch line is “the missing brick”?

Well, there is something missing here too.

Look at this (Attached File) and ponder on it. Don’t get all esoteric, and start that shit about cumulative error, standard deviations, Gaussian distributions,...............

REPLY:

It might be helpful to explain one more time what
this map was for and who made it, and when.

Was the map made (red ticks) during the flight, then filled in later with furtehr estimates (black ticks), by who?

These are estimates in any event, not a conspiracy
theory.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Quote

you guys are being way to analytical, replace "felt" with "it was their belief" that Cooper jumped.

okay, if we just run with that, then you're asking us to find a jump point that has the money bag coming off and landing in the Columbia, or some bit of land that might get flooded or a stream...I'm thinking stream is unlikely because of small size...probability/likelihood of any particular money landing site is probably correlated to it's area..stream area is small..columbia is big...banks of columbia are big.

And this landing site for the money has to be within 1/2 mile of the flight path, probably less, depending on how you vector the money relative to the plane's path.

And this jump point has to be before the Columbia.

So given this difficult set of conditions, you think it's somehow obsessive to focus on the data requirement that's forcing us to have a jump point before the Columbia.

Now I'm scratching my head because I feel this vibe of how "hey we don't need to be so analytical" when all the requirements for the equation seem to demand a lot of precision on everything we talk about.

In fact, the lack of precision, the willingness or desire to grab at an answer that might be "close enough", I think is what has always doomed this investigation. Just because you see a possible grab handle doesn't mean it's the right one.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

While pondering this altitude request thing, and reading Orange1’s response, I got to thinking about AGL vs. MSL in this specific case. How much difference would it make?

So, since I had the previously published plots, I ran a profile on the actual route. Here’s what I got:

Profile of 1971 path ALL.jpg
This is the whole 85+ SM route from 19:54 PST to 20:18 PST. The points labeled should be self-explanatory. Because it is so compressed (on the x axis), I ran smaller segments.

Profile of 1971 path 0-30.jpg
The first 30 SM.

Profile of 1971 path 30-50.jpg
Approximately 30 to 50 SM

Profile of 1971 path 50-70.jpg
Approximately 50 to 70 SM

Profile of 1971 path 65-85.jpg
Approximately 65 to 85 SM. Ending with the point at 20:18 PST.

Skydivers, please look at these and tell me if there is anything I should know about the elevation issues. I think not, I just want to cover all my (knowledge) basses, before I make a complete fool of myself.

Thanks again,

Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

(this is just speculation, but I thought it's interesting and maybe someone has more thoughts)

I was fascinated with the recently released high resolution flight path map. Especially with the location labelled First Plot. Up near SEA.

I was surprised to see that the first radar tic might not have been at SEA, but a little bit out...i.e. we don't have tics for the whole flight path?

We know USAF radar was used to produce the '72 map. Possibly it was used for the radar tics for the '71 map.

We've always speculated that maybe Mt. Hebo, OR was the, or one of, the radar sites the USAF may have used, because it was tied into SAGE.
(reference previous stuff I've posted)
(edit) We like the SAGE idea, because two F106s were sent up for intercept from the 318th Fighter Interceptor Squadron at McChord.
They were Delta Darts and they supposedly were fully armed. It would be interesting to mull over whether there was any possible shoot-down scenarios discussed that night.

The anecdotal info from a SAGE scope op confirmed that they would be sent in two's as standard intercept procedure.


Mt. Hebo, OR no longer has the radar site, but it is cleared, has a road, and you can find and see it in Google Earth if you type it in the name.

I was curious about the distance from Mt. Hebo to the first radar tics on the '71 map we now have. I had always been stressed about the distance of the plane from various radar installations, knowing that distance, low altitude, irregular terrain, and rain, combine to reduce radar accuracy. (Thinking of '71 technology)

150 miles from a single radar site seems to have been the limit for radius, assuming the radar was pointing inward. Some? SAGE sites were perimeter only, since they were supposed to be looking for Russian bombers.

Speculation, since USAF had other radar.

The distance from Mt. Hebo,OR to the "First Plot" point seems to be about 119 miles. So that's interesting, it's within the 150 mile radius. Could be why we don't have ticks all the way to SEA?

I attached some old photos of Mt. Hebo I took when I used to spy for the Russkies...(KIDDING! but the photos are real)

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Don't forget to include the forward throw an object will have leaving an aircraft in flight. Also depending on the body position of a human in free fall they tend to scoot and slide all over the place,

___________________________________________

Can you explain this a little - elaborate...
Thanks.

I believe this is the normal inertia concept (the same reason your body keeps moving forward if the car slams on brakes). There's a cute little freefall sim on Kallend's website which you might like to look at - just plug in some numbers for windspeed and look at the trajectory: http://lensmoor.org/cgi-bin/chute.cgi (btw the reason the forward throw is the opposite direction to the drift is because planes usually drop jumpers flying into the wind)

I don't believe I've seen anything about him originally requesting below 10K, but it could make sense either from a cloud cover perspective, or from a spotting perspective - IF he had a particular position in mind, the lower you go out the less you are affected (either in freefall or under canopy) by wind drift from the uppers. Ckret of course is of the opinion he didn't know where he was going to jumo anyway, so this would be a moot point.

Ckret, on another tack, was Mayfield ever formally identified as a suspect? Were his prints ever compared? He has a criminal record so presumably you (FBI) have them on file.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

• Quote

[Ckret 0]

Quote

Quote

you guys are being way to analytical, replace "felt" with "it was their belief" that Cooper jumped.

okay, if we just run with that, then you're asking us to find a jump point that has the money bag coming off and landing in the Columbia, or some bit of land that might get flooded or a stream...I'm thinking stream is unlikely because of small size...probability/likelihood of any particular money landing site is probably correlated to it's area..stream area is small..columbia is big...banks of columbia are big.

And this landing site for the money has to be within 1/2 mile of the flight path, probably less, depending on how you vector the money relative to the plane's path.

And this jump point has to be before the Columbia.

So given this difficult set of conditions, you think it's somehow obsessive to focus on the data requirement that's forcing us to have a jump point before the Columbia.

Now I'm scratching my head because I feel this vibe of how "hey we don't need to be so analytical" when all the requirements for the equation seem to demand a lot of precision on everything we talk about.

In fact, the lack of precision, the willingness or desire to grab at an answer that might be "close enough", I think is what has always doomed this investigation. Just because you see a possible grab handle doesn't mean it's the right one.

Snowmman,

What I need you to do right now, ok!!! is to slowly show me your hands, right now, ok? I need you step away from the keyboard with your hands up, Ok? right now.

Breath brother, too analytical about the word "felt" not the case. Everyone needs a day off, I shall grant you two. Now go outside and run around a bit, the blue stuff when you look up is called sky and the green stuff at your feet we call grass

[snowmman 3]

in response to Ckret's post:
I was watching Cops one night and listening to the "Bad Boys, Bad Boys" song, and thinking about Ckret and this forum, and all my MP3's lovingly acquired over 9 years, including everything Lou Reed has ever done.

And I went and deleted/destroyed them all. Damn, and you say I'm not doing my part here!

[377 22]

Quote

This message is targeted for skydivers only:

If whuffos feel they must respond, that’s fine, but the skydivers have the expertise I am seeking.

Please suspend all you know or think you know about NORJAK for just a minute. That includes the things you know or think you know about Cooper. For this exercise , just pretend you (with your personality, prejudices, world view, etc.) are Cooper.

Now, please answer these questions:

1) If you were going to request an altitude to jump from a 727-51, what altitude would that be? Put any number here, no constraints, but please list any rationale for your response (safety, it gives me time to get stable, it gets me to the ground more quickly, etc)


I'd just say 10,000 ft. It sounds like something a whuffo would pick. If I said 12,500 or 14,000 it might give a clue that I was a skydiver. 10,000 ft is high enough to clear any nearby terrain and would give me time for a hop, wait a few sec and pop.

2) Would you express that altitude as MSL or AGL? Again, any number, but state rationale.

I'd say neither as both give a clue that you know something about flying. Any whuffo could say 10,000 ft. If you say AGL. MSL, 2000 ft above MEA, or use your radar altimeter, you have already narrowed the list of suspects.

3) Would you plan for freefall and if so how long? Time? Distance? Both? Just express it clearly for this whuffo… no, WHUFFO.

I'd plan to slow down to terminal or near terminal get stable and pull... so probably a seven to ten second delay or so. If there were clouds I'd want to be under an open chute above the clouds. I'd have studied the charts to be sure that a 10,000 ft exit wouldnt put me out only 1000 ft above an obscured mountain top.

Now quit being Cooper.

4) Is there anything about Cooper’s altitude request that strikes you as “odd” or “improper”? He requested 10,000 feet. (Whether he stated MSL, AGL or didn’t specify is lost at this time.) If your answer is “yes,” Please explain (in detail).

No. It does not seem odd to me. 10,000 ft is the perfect thing to have said because it contains so few clues.

You may answer here, or by e-mail n467us@charter.net.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Sluggo_Monster

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I see it as very straight forward (why no tics before 19:54).

19:48 PST - Flt 305 reports 160 KIAS, which is about 5 knots above stall speed. Holding at 7,000 ft. [below radar]

19:48 PST - Flt 305 reports Flaps to 15 degrees and beginning climb to 10,000. [below radar]

19:51 PST - Flt 305 advises they are climbing to 10,000 ft. and are through 9,000 ft now. [Below Radar]

19:53 PST - Flt 305 reports level at 10,000 ft. with 170 – 180 KIAS [Above Radar]

With the curvature of the earth, at 115 miles, I’m not sure that MT Hebo was the radar at that time.

Sluggo_Monster

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[nitrochute 2]

so me and guru have some knowledge of the type of parachutes that ol coop used,and we been talking...
the nb 6/nb8 harness has a floating main lift web.it runs through an adaptor at the shoulder and becomes the riser that the canopy is attached to.(picture the old ww2 harnesses,the ones w/o capewell canopy releases)if ol coop tied the bag/sack of money to himself it most likely would involve the main lift web.even if it was tight/secure it would flop around possibly blocking his access to the ripcord handle or possibly even smackin the boy upside the head and knocking him out. i hate to stay fixated on the parachute issue, but i think it would be helpfull to determine if he even was able to deploy the parachute(and lets not forget the pack was designed for a much less bulky 26 ft canopy but had a bulkier 28 foot canopy in it which would result in a very hard/ impossible pull.) so if we couple all these things , it seems extremely unlikely that the boy would have survived the jump. methinks he was a lawn dart ......but just my 2 cents worth

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

snowmman,

Your last post made me think about some training I had one time.

Go HERE

Sluggo

EDIT: This is why I entered the field of "Instructional Technology". So I could design Training Materials for Guv'ment Agencies.

Since I started getting on the internet forums (or is the plural of “forum” “Fora”) I have been surprised, shocked, I’ve gotten my feelings hurt. I’ve been made to feel proud. I’ve felt like an outsider. I’ve wondered why certain people have said certain things. I have gotten discouraged and I have been encouraged.

But, I have never been so disappointed as I am that only one person commented on my AF Guidance lecture that I posted last night.

I’ve thought it over, and the only answer I have, is that nobody on this board has as many GPS receivers as I do, and has spent as much time as I have trying to understand the position algorithms that Garmin uses.

Sluggo

A man with a GPSr always knows EXACTLY where he is. A man with two GPSrs is NEVER really sure.

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[377 22]

Quote

in response to Ckret's post:
I was watching Cops one night and listening to the "Bad Boys, Bad Boys" song, and thinking about Ckret and this forum, and all my MP3's lovingly acquired over 9 years, including everything Lou Reed has ever done.

And I went and deleted/destroyed them all. Damn, and you say I'm not doing my part here!

Snowman. What on earth made you destroy your Lou Reed songs? Was she worth it?

If you like Bad Boys Bad Boys, Whatcha Gonna Do?there are tons of great Reggae songs about crime, many from the perspective of the criminal. It wasn't rappers who glorified a violent felony conviction. Reggae stars beat them by many years.

Suggested intro playlist:

54 46 thats my number. Toots and the Maytalls

Police and thieves in the street. Junior Murvin

One wheel wheelie. Early B

Johnny too bad. Jimmy Cliff

I shot the sheriff by Bob Marley fits the genre, but is too mainstream.

Also listen to Lucky Dube. He doesn't glorify crime but was a great Reggae artist who recently died at the hands of carjackers in South Africa.

Snowman, Ckret is dieing to get a search warrant for your hard drive. You came close to admitting that you download your songs free on Bit Torrent, but stopped short of giving him enough for an affidavit.

I always pay full price on I-Tunes. I have never jumped with an out of date reserve. I took the last grip on the 400 way RW record in Thailand.

What do the above statements have in common?

Keep going on the flight line analysis. I am just watching from the sidelines and cracking a few jokes.
You guys keep finding clues that I missed completely.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

.....but had a bulkier 28 foot canopy in it which would result in a very hard/ impossible pull.......

nitrochute,

As you know I am an avowed WHUFFO. I have heard that statement from other experienced skydivers. Since you know skydiving and I don’t, I’m hesitant to argue with you. But I need help reconciling the logic.

What I’m saying is; would Pacific Skysports have had a parachute sitting around, all packed and ready to go, that was in a state that could be described as a “hard/mpossible pull”?

Help me understand.

Sluggo

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Gees 377,

And I was afraid Ckret was going to find out that I knew H. Bruce Franklin in the late sixties.

Man! You’re hard-core!

BTW: I was on the last helicopter out of Saigon. The check is in the mail. And, of course, Southerners really do like Italian Opera.

From:

Someone who isn't that Sluggo guy

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[nitrochute 2]

"back in the day "NOBODY cared about pull forces at least to the paranoid extremes of today. not many rigger used a fish scale to check the pull force either. if you could close it,it was used.i was actually the victim of this mentality on my first jump in 1970. the reserve parchute that i wore on my first jump could not be pulled even w/2 people trying. (i had a malfuntion on my main parachute , but luckily i was able to clear it and get it open.)since the chute cooper used was a pilot emergency chute , it would only have been deployed on the packing table to repack it every 60 days .it wasnt like a main parachute that gets deployed in freefall and then gets repacked. so yes it is absolutely possible to have such a rig laying around. most pilots would not use a parchute even if available to them unless say the wings fell off the airplane.