DB Cooper

[377 22]

I also wish to see Georger back. He doesn't deserve a permaban and I think that's what Q decided to do.

Alternative forums really aren't the answer. Dropzone is Coca Cola. It's the top brand. It pulls customers far more strongly than RC Cola.

Please reevaluate permabans Quade. Serial timeouts obviously take more of your time but they are sure better in the eyes of most forum users.

Let's say someone is a valuable contributor of unique information but a serial violator of the rules. Should we lose them permanently? I think that's too severe a punishment and it causes the forum content to take a downtick in quality. Sure, I can proxy Snow, but his participation in exhile is a a fraction of what it was when he was a direct forum participant. Not every permabanned person will have a willing proxy. Bob Knoss and Jamie Cooper are examples of that.

I wish you'd try a different approach. The rule breaking offenses committed by Snow and Georger are far outweighed by the value of their contributions. Please let us have them back.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Guru312 0]

Quote

If Blevins is back can we have Georger back please.... That was the deal after all. Georger has made plenty good contributions and I for one would like to see him back.

If this this forum was a democratic place where we all voted on who to ban, rather than a totalitarian one, my vote would be to ban Blevins and allow Georger.

Not that it matters, but I see no reason to ban anybody for any thing; the concept reminds me of grade school..

But, we are, essentially, in another's house where they can make the rules and Quade makes the big bucks enforcing those rules. /sarcasm

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

dark Piercing brown

Where did you get the "dark piercing brown"...???

Do you have a link...???

Here is snowmman's post that quotes Mucklow's and Schaffner's descriptions.

I'm pretty sure he got it from the transcripts somewhere...I doubt snowmman made this quote up.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3648502;search_string=med%20to%20dark%20complexion;#3648502

I also read Sluggo's remark about going down rabbit trails...

Quote

Just a thought. Let's not go down an (un-necessary rabbit-trail (or dog trail).

Sluggo quote post #12378

Wasn't the quotes in the above reference from Sluggo PRIOR to anyone having access to the FBI files. My memory no longer serves me the way it use to do.
Total Over-load along with my health and age.

I do recall that Florence was the only individual to see Cooper without his glasses eye to eye.
When he handed her the note he pulled his glasses down and said "Miss, you better Read that note. I have a bomb!" Don't remember the direct quote word for word or the source, but there has been MORE than one source to relay this information. Dark piercing brown!

How much Tina could see we will never know. I am sure Cooper had to remove the glasses to examine the money and make his preparations to jump before sending Tina forward. I would be a given he left the glasses on until the passengers had disembarked....only then would he be comfortable removing the glasses. This statement is MY OWN opinion considering the type of sunglasses he was wearing. Did you ever own a pair?

Attached is the picture of the pair his wife had only a short time before the jump. She stated they both had pair. Bet they bought them at the Flea Market they were setting up in - 1971.

Attached is
1. a pic of his wife holding the glasses at a flea market.

2. one many later of his eyes upclose,

3. one of the glasses turned around and as close as I could get

4. a close-up of the tie w/clasp he was wearing in 1970. Note this is a wide tie so the clasp is in the middle. I had thought this was just a glich or spot on this old polaroid photo...now we know better.

5. a pic of the tie and clasp they claimed may have belonged to Cooper.

Note she sent the one of her holding the glasses and him wearing the tie at the SAME time.
This was yrs ago and she sent me the originals - I was supposed to make copies and send them back, but she ended up in an assisted living...so the photo's remained in my safe keeping and are now kept in a safe.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Quote

If this this forum was a democratic place where we all voted on who to ban, rather than a totalitarian one, my vote would be to ban Blevins and allow Georger.

I suspect most would.
It is a pity that those with valuable and objective information are not able to share it, or do so by proxy, while we are left with those who are just interested in promoting their own suspects ....

Yeats springs to mind (10 brownie points for anyone who can get the line I an thinking of)
(do you have brownie points in the us?!)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Snow (via pm of course) got the brownie points...

Why am I not surprised?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Quote

Snow (via pm of course) got the brownie points...

Why am I not surprised?

You are not surprised because you already knew Snow was a renaissance man, albeit an edgy one.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Snow (via pm of course) got the brownie points...

Why am I not surprised?

You are not surprised because you already knew Snow was a renaissance man, albeit an edgy one.

377

I agree to go along - whatever works.

What I want to do is back to sorting out Cooper
history -

[377 22]

Welcome back Georger and thank you Quade!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

Quote

Everything we thought was true about the parachutes is bogus. Earl Cossey lied about everything.

I just spoke with the owner of the two back chutes, Norman George Hayden, and he thoroughly discredits Mr. Cossey. Here is my report:



Breaking News. Cossey has lied Big Time.

I just spoke with Norman Hayden, a very nice guy. He owned the two back chutes that DBC received. Cossey did not own the chutes, had never used them, and he did not give them to the FBI.

"Earl Cossey is pretty much full of beans," said Norman.

So, in essence Earl Cossey has lied about everything associated with the parachutes.

Hayden is not a skydiver, and has never used the chutes. He still has the second one, and he invited me to inspect it with him this week, which I will do.

As far as Hayden knows, the parachutes had not been used when he gave them to the FBI - at least not in the recent past. On November 24, 1971, he was contacted by the NWO ops guy who had gotten the referral to Hayden from someone at SeaTac. Hayden didn't know they were going to Cooper, and just put them in a taxi and they went to Boeing Field. I'm not sure how they got to Sea-Tac from there.

I'm guessing the chutes may have been used in WWII, Korea, or Vietnam, but Hayden never used them. He's not even sure what kind of parachutes they are.

Hayden is a precision aerobatic pilot, not a skydiver, and he bought them because he didn't like the chutes that the aerobatic school issued him for his lessons the prior year.

Both chutes are identical as far as Hayden knows, and both are military rounds. None were rectangular, "stunt" parachutes. Also, neither chute had "D" rings. Hayden doesn't know the size of the parachutes, such as 28-foot or 26-foot or if they were in NB 8 containers, etc.

I'm going to see Hayden in a few days, and take pictures of the second chute, which he has in his shop in Kent, just about 30 miles away. He said he had to hire an attorney to get his second chute back from the FBI and it took years. Plus, the guy he dealt with in the Seattle FBI office was very rude. Plus, the chute was in Washington, DC for quite some time, which is why it took so long to get it back.

So, when I see Norman and the chutes, I'll know more.

The only involvement with Cossey is that he packed the chutes, and his rigging card in still in the second chute. Who owned them before Norman I do not know, but I will when I meet with him.

In addition, Norman said that the second chute was manufactured by a parachute company called "Pioneer," which is the name that Cossey had told me intitially and so many jumped up and down and said was a Paracommander. A whiff of truth in all the fiction....

I agree with 377 - one must watch for (and adjust)
if Cossey's penchant for pranks surfaces? That aside
I am wondering if this is not just one more example
of incomplete history at work, vs a wholesale change
in Cooper 'parachute history'?

Does it matter who owned the chutes? Why would
we get different stories about where and from who
the chutes were obtained? Who' would the
FBI turn to for a correct identification of the chutes
regardless of where they came from or who owned
them, in their convoluted history? (probably Cossey
imho because Cossey was the maker/origin of the
back chutes). Correct? ?

But, we have been down this road before, Multiple
stories from multiple people; not all stories agree.
The Palmer report and "washougal washdown" are
one case in point. Bruce's description of the money
site vs Georger's description of that site vs. Agent
X's description of that site ... vs. Palmer's
description of that site.

Fact I can prove: The Washougal Washdown Theory
did not originate with Leonard Palmer but from
someone else involved as an advisor at the time.
That is the actual history of that, in case it matters.
Others may disagree...

There are many other example of this same
multiple-account phenominon occuring in the
Cooper story. Resolving these different account is
what research is all about -

Im not saying anything new -

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Welcome back Georger and thank you Quade!

377

+1

Yay!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[BruceSmith 3]

My ex, who in my absence has gone on to be the president of her shule, used to have an old Yiddish expression to characterize the proliferation of information in family disputes:

"Two Jews, three opinions," which invariably proved to be correct. Hence, in our family of six practicing Jews we often had a plethoria of opinions, some facts, and lots of animated discussions, which I loved dearly.

We seem to have the same dynamic at work in the Cooper case. Four parachutes, two owners, one packer and 226 pages of FBI documents. Nu?

After much cajoling, Geoffrey has finally admitted to me that his claim that Norman George Hayden is the owner and provider of the two Cooper back chutes comes from FBI documents, specifically pages 226-228 of some yet unidentified larger FBI document.

In our trade, Geoffrey also asked for Coss' latest phone number, which I readily gave, because Geoff would like to invite Coss to the hoe-down at Ariel this Thansgiving. As a result, we should have a minion at Donna's place, and be able to continue this broucka.

It is truly a mitzva to be able to function as such a yenta, and for such blessings they should come to a Shaygutz like I!

Nevertheless, I travel, not to Anatevka, but Renton on Monday to see Norman and wear a parachute for the first time. Like Norman, I see no reason to use it in order to step out out of a perfectly good airplane in flight. But, ahhh, to touch something that has actually been on board 305, with my own hands....

Along the way, I will continue to unravel the Cossey dilemma. If he only packed the chutes, and thus lied about owning them and providing them to the FBI, why and how has he been so inextrictably intertwined into the Cooper fabric?

Ah, the Vortex is powerful my friends. Chapter 26 grows daily. So much to tell, so little time to write.

Answers! Facts! Like a clarion call across the Widerness twitching the ear of this vigilant creature of the woods, I heed the summons and run.

Onward to Renton.

And Ariel.

[377 22]

Any chance there might have been more than 4 chutes? I really don't think so but I am trying to find some explanation for the apparent multiple ownership claims on the two main chute rigs.

I'd be really pissed if my rigger claimed he owned my rigs. I wonder what's up with Cossey? Why does he do what he does in misleading people about the chutes?

Snow, Gray and Bruce have opened up a new area of inquiry. I took it for granted that one rig was a Pioneer sport rig containing a Paracommander main and having D rings for attaching a chest reserve.

Now we believe that neither main rig was a sport rig and neither had D rings. Cooper definitely made the right choice picking the military bailout rig with a rugged C9 high speed canopy, but was it a reasoned choice or a coin flip?

I think it was a reasoned choice. I also think he knew he could jump a 727. He reportedly asked the ticket agent to confirm that aircraft was a 727. Sure, he could have been hoping he could jump from one, but I think he knew he could.

He reportedly asked for 15 degrees of flaps, gear down and other airplane savvy flight configurations that would keep the crew from going above a safe exit speed or altitude.

It all suggests someone who was aviation savvy and possibly parachute savvy.

If we could only get Snow back we could really get up some steam here. Would I let Bob Knoss and Jamie Cooper back too? Yeah, I would, but on a short leash.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

Any chance there might have been more than 4 chutes?

...

If we could only get Snow back we could really get up some steam here. Would I let Bob Knoss and Jamie Cooper back too? Yeah, I would, but on a short leash.

377

Welcome 377 to the Land Far Beyond the Box! (smile).

So many chutes, yet only one skyjacker! Oi vey - Ole!

And now, I think we're going to see the power of love - The 40th Anniversary Amnesty Special for Snowmman, Knossie and Jamie. Wow. Not even I had dared to dream so big.

But now I am.

My 4th Chakra is buzzing, and as I close my eyelids my 3rd eye sees this image of a Paul Quade beginning to crack a smile....could it be?

[BruceSmith 3]

Thank Gawd Georger is back. Maybe he can help us with the mathematics of the current investigatory algebra.

Let's see:

We (may) have four back chutes plus two owners, divided by one taxi cab, with that sum multiplied by one skyjacker taken to the fourth power of Jerry's four fight attendants subtracted by the square root of two composite drawings.

Is that the case in its current condition?

[pek771 0]

Quote

Let's see:

We (may) have four back chutes plus two owners, divided by one taxi cab, with that sum multiplied by one skyjacker taken to the fourth power of Jerry's four fight attendants subtracted by the square root of two composite drawings.

Is that the case in its current condition?

OK, as an example, assume I packed parachutes. Some of my purportedly packed parachutes are used in an unusual extortion and aircraft hijacking. The FBI comes to see me. As in, Federal Bureau of Investigation. Likely people in a foul mood, carrying .38 S&W revolvers. I am basically a bystander, and I have no reason to tell the FBI anything other than the truth and exactly what I know in answer to their questions. I am guilty of nothing, except possibly being an idiot.

Unless someone can demonstrate that Mr. Cossey is some sort of pathological liar, or an idiot, I will assume he told the FBI factual answers to their questions. How he has played it over the past 40 years may be different, but I would go with his original statements.

[BruceSmith 3]

Also, Geoffrey’s responsibility to disclose his FBI docs sources
____________________

We seem to have an emerging problem equal to the dilemma of deciding who owned how many parachutes, and that is the issue of what Geoff was told about them and by whom.

Clearly, Geoffrey Gray had unprecedented access to FBI files and agents. Good for him; that is a remarkable journalistic achievement. But at some point I think Geoff has to come clean on what he knows and when he knew it. Simply, he has to identify his sources and validate his claims as expressed in his book, "Skyjack."

Geoff says that Norman Hayden is the owner the back chutes delivered to DB Cooper. Okay, so now let's see what documentation that is based upon.

I'm in the process of doing the "what is your source" dance with Geoff, which is not a new tune for me - it's part of Geoff's charm to be taciturn. Gawd knows he could wipe me clean in a poker game.

After a bit of a swirl this week, Geoff has confirmed that the three-page document identifying Hayden as the owner that has been linked on these pages is legit and comes from the FBI. This document clearly declares Norman Hayden to be the owner of the two back chutes delivered to Cooper.

However, these pages, number 226, 227 and 228, come from what document? Along those lines, can I see it? That question is ultimately one I have to resolve with the FBI, I suppose, and this leads back to the tangled web that enshrouded Larry Carr's work: how come some guys get to see the good stuff and other guys are left out in the cold.

Okay, so Geoff developed a singular relationship with Larry. Great. Now, where do we (me and the other guys) go from here? We only get bupkas? Nah, I don't think so, not when my tax dollars paid for parts of pages 226-228. Simply, I wanna see what Geoffie saw, and I want Geoff to tell me what the file is called or numbered. Also, is it in Seattle?

This issue is still unfolding.

Nevertheless, here is what we know about Hayden's two back chutes from the FBI docs and examining that information in light with what Hayden and Cossey told me last week.


1. A "civilian, luxury"-type but "military" parachute, the FBI docs say; with tan, soft cotton material outside and a white inside on a 26-foot canopy. Parachute has a foam pad cushion and a fray mark from rubbing on metal.

2. A "military back pack parachute," according to the docs. Standard "military drab green on outside," with a white inside on a 28-foot canopy. This chute also has a “foam pad cushion.”

These descriptions are a little different than what Norman told me last week, when he said that both were identical military chutes.

What is described above, one 26-footer and one 28-footer gives rise to explaining why the FBI says Cooper jumped with a 26-foot canopy. However, we still have confusion about Cossey stuffing a 28-footer into a NB 6 bag.

However, the two chutes somewhat resemble what Cossey described to me last week, with one chute being a bit more of a Cadillac - the "luxury," model. But, it is a 26-footer, and after waffling a bit Coss emphatically declared that Cooper took a 28-foot canopy out the door with him.

Hmmm.

[BruceSmith 3]

OK, as an example, assume I packed parachutes. Some of my purportedly packed parachutes are used in an unusual extortion and aircraft hijacking. The FBI comes to see me. As in, Federal Bureau of Investigation. Likely people in a foul mood, carrying .38 S&W revolvers. I am basically a bystander, and I have no reason to tell the FBI anything other than the truth and exactly what I know in answer to their questions. I am guilty of nothing, except possibly being an idiot.

Unless someone can demonstrate that Mr. Cossey is some sort of pathological liar, or an idiot, I will assume he told the FBI factual answers to their questions. How he has played it over the past 40 years may be different, but I would go with his original statements.

[skyrider 0]

Quote

These attached pictures are just an example of eye color changes in the same subject with different lighting...

These photos were all taken within 10 minutes of each other...

What color are they...???

What color would they be in a dimly lit aircraft...???

hangdiver

My sons eyes go from dark brown to green to Hazel, depending on lighting.... So, yes, I agreee eye color depends on the lighting!

[pek771 0]

I agrre with you Bruce. Rather than say, "I think", I am going to look around and see if I can find just what was said by Cossey to the FBI. Since there seems to be an ongoing discussion of the parachutes, the seeming answer is no one, even Cossey knows what they were.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Everything we thought was true about the parachutes is bogus. Earl Cossey lied about everything.

I just spoke with the owner of the two back chutes, Norman George Hayden, and he thoroughly discredits Mr. Cossey. Here is my report:



Breaking News. Cossey has lied Big Time.

I just spoke with Norman Hayden, a very nice guy. He owned the two back chutes that DBC received. Cossey did not own the chutes, had never used them, and he did not give them to the FBI.

"Earl Cossey is pretty much full of beans," said Norman.

So, in essence Earl Cossey has lied about everything associated with the parachutes.

Hayden is not a skydiver, and has never used the chutes. He still has the second one, and he invited me to inspect it with him this week, which I will do.

As far as Hayden knows, the parachutes had not been used when he gave them to the FBI - at least not in the recent past. On November 24, 1971, he was contacted by the NWO ops guy who had gotten the referral to Hayden from someone at SeaTac. Hayden didn't know they were going to Cooper, and just put them in a taxi and they went to Boeing Field. I'm not sure how they got to Sea-Tac from there.

I'm guessing the chutes may have been used in WWII, Korea, or Vietnam, but Hayden never used them. He's not even sure what kind of parachutes they are.

Hayden is a precision aerobatic pilot, not a skydiver, and he bought them because he didn't like the chutes that the aerobatic school issued him for his lessons the prior year.

Both chutes are identical as far as Hayden knows, and both are military rounds. None were rectangular, "stunt" parachutes. Also, neither chute had "D" rings. Hayden doesn't know the size of the parachutes, such as 28-foot or 26-foot or if they were in NB 8 containers, etc.

I'm going to see Hayden in a few days, and take pictures of the second chute, which he has in his shop in Kent, just about 30 miles away. He said he had to hire an attorney to get his second chute back from the FBI and it took years. Plus, the guy he dealt with in the Seattle FBI office was very rude. Plus, the chute was in Washington, DC for quite some time, which is why it took so long to get it back.

So, when I see Norman and the chutes, I'll know more.

The only involvement with Cossey is that he packed the chutes, and his rigging card in still in the second chute. Who owned them before Norman I do not know, but I will when I meet with him.

In addition, Norman said that the second chute was manufactured by a parachute company called "Pioneer," which is the name that Cossey had told me intitially and so many jumped up and down and said was a Paracommander. A whiff of truth in all the fiction....

I agree with 377 - one must watch for (and adjust)
if Cossey's penchant for pranks surfaces? That aside
I am wondering if this is not just one more example
of incomplete history at work, vs a wholesale change
in Cooper 'parachute history'?

Does it matter who owned the chutes? Why would
we get different stories about where and from who
the chutes were obtained? Who' would the
FBI turn to for a correct identification of the chutes
regardless of where they came from or who owned
them, in their convoluted history? (probably Cossey
imho because Cossey was the maker/origin of the
back chutes). Correct? ?

But, we have been down this road before, Multiple
stories from multiple people; not all stories agree.
The Palmer report and "washougal washdown" are
one case in point. Bruce's description of the money
site vs Georger's description of that site vs. Agent
X's description of that site ... vs. Palmer's
description of that site.

Fact I can prove: The Washougal Washdown Theory
did not originate with Leonard Palmer but from
someone else involved as an advisor at the time.
That is the actual history of that, in case it matters.
Others may disagree...

There are many other example of this same
multiple-account phenominon occuring in the
Cooper story. Resolving these different account is
what research is all about -

Im not saying anything new -

[377 22]

Snow thinks Sluggo needs to correct this text which is on his website:

Quote

Sluggos "Facts" page is wrong

Sluggo says that Cossey put the back packs in a cab. That's not what happened

from http://www.n467us.com/The%20Facts%20and%20the%20Myths.htm

Quote

The chutes were secured through NWA's Seattle flight operations. The flight ops manager called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew (Earl Cossey) who had two back packs. Cossey put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field and then onto Sea-Tac by private car.
The chest chutes were picked up in Issaquah at Seattle Sky Sports and transported to Sea-Tac by the State Patrol.
The NB6 and the Pioneer were Cossey's chutes, he had them at his house, they weren't at Seattle Skysports.

Hey Sluggo. You and Sugar coming to Ariel?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

Welcome back. Georger is the statement above really you - you actually went to see Hayden?

You are correct about the Washougal Wash Down Theory not originating with Palmer. Palmer's Report is no more than a letter that states the money on Tena's bar had been there less than a yr and had been in the water for less than a yr. He did NOT propose how it got there and a wash down was NOT part of that letter. I only know what I have been told by someone who actually got to read the "Report".

[georger 244]

Okay, fair enough. So, what are his original statements?

I'm not trying to be coy here; I've only been on the Hunt since August 2008, so I'm new. I don't know what Cossey's original statements were. I only know what he has told me in the past two-three years, and they don't jive with others are telling me.

[georger 244]

Quote

Georger says in part:

Quote

'As for Palmer, make no mistake, Palmer did buy in
to and promoted the Washougal washdown theory
'in his report', irregardless of its origin. The
Washougal Washdown Theory became the official
explanation, for all practical purposes. Agents were
informed 'this is the best explanation that makes
sense' and those still alive today that I have
interviewed still repeat it...'

Former FBI agent Fuhrman (sic), the guy who interviewed the 305 witnesses in Seattle, does not believe the Washougal washdown theory. He told me this personally in Seattle. We spoke at a sports bar just after Geoff Gray made his book stop at Third Place Books. He believes it is more likely the money was planted sometime after the hijacking. Part of this belief stems from the Tom Tests and the lining up of the serial numbers. I also favor this theory.

I have heard this about Fuhrman. Ive never talked to Fuhrman. What was his feeling about this back in '80? Did you ask?

[georger 244]

Someone maybe Hominid mentioned (asked for)
sled test photos showing the tethered parachute -
here are two of those photos. I have the hi-res
versions if Sluggo doesnt have them ?

These photos are interesting in that they show the
arc of the sled drop, timing of stair closure vs drop
distance traveled by sled, stair position before drop
vs shortly after drop, etc.

Sled test drop photos attached in consecutive order -

Would a human body have had the same
aerodynamics as this sled ? Was a sled a valid test?