DB Cooper

[georger 256]

Quote

Quote

I can also say with absolute certainty that had the
original jump point been projected as being Scotton
Corner, the rail line at Scott would have come under
intense investigtion. It is an obvious escape route -
which just happens to lead right behind Tina Bar,
where Cooper money just happens to surface 9 years
later. That's some "coincidence", in my book.

I don't think you're thinking clearly. Or you've never walked railroad tracks.

Why is the railroad track an escape route. So you get to Tina Bar. You're not done. Where do you go from there...You get off, lose some money then get back on the train?

If you got on the train, there's no reason to get off at Tina Bar? The Tina Bar connection is being used to justify the validity of the train path for escape, but the Tina Bar link makes no sense, train-wise? if escape is the goal?

(edit) Also you can't get off a train unless it slows to maybe 10-15mph. Faster than that is crazy?

I've not heard a sensible train theory.

It makes most sense to get back to Portland. You had to get to Portland area somehow to start the trip? Getting to Portland makes sense. A random railroad walk or hop makes no sense. Can you flesh it out?

REPLY> Its just a thought, not a necessity. The rail
line is the one single direct and unobstructed route
between the new DZ and the Tina Bar area - right behind Tina Bar. All other routes are (far) more complicated. But, it does assume he either survived long enough to get to the Columbia or someone with his money did.

He had all night long if he survived. A rail line offers
some concealment. He already knew where he was
in relative terms, as per Rataczak's statement. He
would have known the rail line was going toward the Columbia.

The problem in all of these matters is we have no
evidence to work from. It's a lot like feeling the legs
of an elephant and coming up with the atomic theory
from that? This case is almost on a par wth the Drake equation, and until something specific surfaces its
an enigma wrapped inside a riddle cloaked inside
opinion. We cant even get two people to agree on
what people saw!

[georger 256]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

If Rataczak and others could see the lights of Portland
Cooper could see them too! He knew where he was at
in general terms and bailed.

Not necessarily. Your statement seems to imply that Rataczak and Cooper had an equal view which they did not. Rataczak is sitting at the front of the plane with a near 180 degree view in front of him. Cooper is either looking out side windows, which gives you little indication of what is in front of you. Or he is standing at the backstairs giving no indication at all of what is in front of him.

But again to know where you are in "general terms" on a plane, if you know the route doesn't require seeing anything.

REPLY> I knew some one would say this. All he has to do is look out the windows, the cabin is dark. Or out
the back of the aircraft at the direction of skyglow.
He knows Vancouver and Portland are coming up. He
knows the area.

The way you worded your initial statement isn't always true. If you are approaching a city straight on in an airplane the flight crew is going to see the glow and subsequently the lights before a passenger does. Given the likelihood of clouds that night the fact that Cooper likely had his back to the city, and my experiences that flying at night you get less "night glow" than driving when approaching a city, It isn't as certain as you are trying to make it out to be.

REPLY> This is worth revisiting. see map attached.
Notice angles of approach to Portland with respect
to a personsitting in the cabin of the plane. Not to preclude person sitting in plane can move around and look out any window he wants right to behind the cockpit door! Take Rataczak's words at face value.
He didnt say he saw the lights over Portland but Portland itself.

"The crew had already reported the abnormal fluctuations so they believed this "bump" was just a continuation of what started at 8:11 PM. Because of this they don't report it. They do have conversation, however, Radazcak said he could see the northern suburbs of Portland when this occurred. He also said it occurred 5 to 10 minutes after last contact at 8:05 PM." (Ckret #2357 June 10 08)

The curious thing to me is Rataczak did not say "lights
of Portland" but "suburbs" of Portland. The city itself?

But we are talking not only about Portland but Vancouver and Portland. Two sets of large lights. Much skyglow in specific direction off clouds. (I know they were at 10000 feet. Luminosity diminishes as a square of the distance from the source. Still bright)

I believe Cooper saw the lights and knew from these
alone, where he was. Nothing more sophisticated is
required.

Notice the angle of the plane and the turns on the map and the approach angle at Vancouver/Portland.

As an absolute fact, Cooper bailed north of Portland
as Rataczack says, but also from Sluggo's analysis,
the previous FBI map, etc.

Thanks,
George

[georger 256]

Quote

Georger,

Relax, ignore "lines". This forum is free speech at its best. I haven't seen anything on this forum even during the Quade repression era that would give rise to a solid defamation/libel suit. Damages have to be proven by the plaintiff and what provable non speculative quantifiable damages arise out of anything said here, even if malicious and untrue?

Fire away. It's open season here. You add a lot of value on this forum. Don't let ruffled feathers chase you off.

377

Thanks for your remarks. I just made two posts which I think may help. Thank you agn OM. 73

[snowmman 3]

glad you didn't abandon us georger.
(edit) good point on the angle of approach to Portland

I will admit, that if Cooper needs to get around stealthily, walking the tracks makes a lot of sense. Especially at night.

I was thinking about ckret's theory that the planned DZ was more towards Seattle. If so, then maybe there was no car to retrieve at PDX...although it's unclear how Cooper got to PDX initially.

So then the goal is to get back to Seattle...after an unplanned DZ.

The thing is, if you're hopping trains, it's going to be freight trains, not passenger trains. I guess Seattle's not so far, so just getting on a train going North might get you to Seattle.

But it doesn't seem like a plan someone in a business suit would try. Cooper seemed unfazed with disgusing himself during the hijack. Would he care about someone noticing him on the road or on public transportation?

I'm still thinking he'd stash the money, and retrieve?

If the DZ was unplanned, it's unlikely Cooper would know where the tracks went?

If you drop into a unpredicted DZ, I think it's more likely that you make your way to a town and take your chances with making it thru without being detected. Even if they notice you, hopefully you're gone before anyone connects the dots and detains you.

I've hitchhiked a lot in the past. Longest was from Wyoming to New York. Only 3-4 days, something like 28 rides. Speed is your friend. The most likely thing that comes to mind for me, is not worrying a lot about detection, but just sticking out your thumb, and being able to give a good story to whoever picks you up...Remember Cooper is a master at manipulating the audience right?
So why would he abandon that skill on the ground?

Hitchhike somewhere, and then quickly get on public transportation.

[georger 256]

Quote

whew, nothing gets said directly round here.

The new info Sluggo posted about the '72 LZ map creation gives us info to resolve it's correlation to the '71 map.
It also gives us information about creating a new LZ from '71 map, because it includes error information (besides the known 2004 error)

The key paragraph is

"The north-south span of possible jump positions is a product of the radar position tolerance of +- .5 mile, and the communication tolerance of +-1 minute"

So this tells us, with reasonable certainty, that the '71 map probably doesn't have any 1 minute variance built into it, for comparing to the transcripts. That's good. It should be "real time".

It also tells us that the reason there's an apparent "too early" drift line...i.e. to account for the perceived error tolerances.

But here's another mistake, I think. The 8:11 predicted jump time already had 1 minute taken away for transcript log delay, right? The log reported the oscillations at 8:12.

So by including another -1 minute variance, they're double counting the communications lag? And I'm not sure why they would go both ways on the communication lag. The lag between real event and log is such that the real event is always before. It can't be after the communication log, unless there is some skew in the local time printed. Maybe that's it?

Maybe they should have used -2 minutes to 0, for the variance due to transcript printing. (edit) I suppose the net effect of what they did, achieved that? weird.

In any case, my point D apparent "doesn't make sense" compared to the '71 map, seems to be a product of a number of errors or fuzzy use of variances
(it also reinforces that drawing 3 lines was silly, due to the fuzziness of the data, and that zones should have been drawn)

But it seems reasonable to just assume the '71 map is correctly marked with real time.

I welcome others analysis of these issues around the '71 and '72 map comparisons. (time).

I think when we creat a new LZ, we probably don't care about the oscillations in the transcript. We're probably mostly going from the "time to bump" from the 2005 comment from Cooper...So we can almost ignore all this transcript delay wishy-washy prediction. (edit) or not? cause the 2005 comment is in the logs? so we do have to account for transcript delay?

The jump point seems to be be around 2015, with the visibility of the "portland suburbs" being the stronger identifier, compared to the bump delay after cooper's 2005 communication (transcripts)

We do need to factor in radar tolerance of +-.5 miles in the LZ prediction though?

(edit) and I guess we're willing to say Cooper didn't cross the Columbia based on other pilot testimony on the bump. So maybe the jump point is between 2013 and 2015 or so. (real time, after the 2004 error is corrected)

REPLY> Hate to keep repeating but:

"The crew had already reported the abnormal fluctuations so they believed this "bump" was just a continuation of what started at 8:11 PM. Because of this they don't report it. They do have conversation, however, Radazcak said he could see the northern suburbs of Portland when this occurred. He also said it occurred 5 to 10 minutes after last contact at 8:05 PM."

There is one 8:15. This may be the best you ever get.

[skyjack71 0]

I realize I am being ignored, but when someone stops and thinks about the things I have said from day one - you will realize that the statemtent below is worth thinking about. He was being looked for he had to get out of any probable LZ that the FBI might be looking in.
When he finally has access to a tv or radio - he knew it was safe to head back toward Vancouver - he didn't need to go to Portland.

Do you remember the statement Duane made when he pointed out the tracks near the cabin on the river??????? I do. But the funny thing that isn't where he got off a train, but where he got on a train.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

I'm still all confused about cooper expecting to get the money in a knapsack. So his apparent plan was to be on the ground with the money in a knapsack.. Either in Seattle area or Portland area. Either way, it would seem to make him stick out. Maybe the knapsack was just part of the money container plan during the jump.

If so, maybe knapsack meant he was going to be more comfortable with stashing it on the ground, rather than running around wearing a knapsack in a business suit.. Or maybe he had a partner he'd call?

Or maybe he just didn't have a ground plan at all and was going to wing it. A "wing it" plan is more likely to be "head for the nearest town by thumb or ???" I think...i.e. nothing brilliant/stealthy..just get somewhere fast and talk your way thru it?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

He was being looked for he had to get out of any probable LZ that the FBI might be looking in.

I think you overstate this Jo.
They wouldn't have a good description. Cooper could talk his way thru anything. The goal would be to move fast, not hang around for days trying to be secret agent man. Remember it's okay if 3 days later someone says "I remember that guy" ...as long as you're far away and no one knows where you went. ...it doesn't matter that people see you..only if they stop you.

You get out by the next day, and you're hundreds of miles away before searches are organized with good description.

There's no way a "hang around and do all sorts of stuff" kind of plan makes sense.

[snowmman 3]

georger:
Yeah, probably take 8:15, and draw a big area around a predicted LZ, taking into account enough error bounds, and just say "that's it"

You never know. If the FBI suddenly said in the press: "Hey we were wrong about Ariel/Amboy..all you people down here though, does anyone remember something? Assume Cooper lived, there was a canopy..a guy doing stuff at night"...If the FBI did that, some information might come out of the LZ area? Some old farmers there might remember something.


If it was 1972, you could probably interview enough people in the area there and find someone who remembered something. I think in '71-'72, that it sounds like all the "interest" was focused up north..so heavy interviewing probably wasn't done in the right area.

Dogs barking at something at night, etc. That kind of thing.

Probably impossible to get new info this long after '71.

[georger 256]

Quote

Quote

Sounds like maybe they had an audio recording of the radio traffic? i.e. they weren't just working from the transcripts like we were? Unless they're talking about a paper tape record of the TTY output. But "tape recording" sounds like audio tape.

If this is true, than an audio tape should not have any TTY printing/communication delay?

On the transcripts we have discussed (since February) the Seattle ATC portions are marked with “Reel Numbers” and have a statement to the effect: “… a true copy of the original recording.”

I think it is clear that those transcripts were taken from an audio tape. It is page 89 through page 106 that were taken from the TTY output.

The Reno and Oakland ATC transcripts were probably from audio tapes as well, but have no statement indicating such.

Quote

They say they used altitude and air speed from the flight recorder. I suppose not for adjusting the flight path, but for computing the drift lines. That seems to answer another question I had.

???????????????? I don't understand this statement.

Sluggo_Monster

REPLY>

So, are you presenting these as historical documents
for purely historical interest, or, as new-new material
to consider along with your "Revised" maps?

Are you now tossing Orchards-Hockinson in favour of
these old maps?

George

[georger 256]

Quote

glad you didn't abandon us georger.
(edit) good point on the angle of approach to Portland

I will admit, that if Cooper needs to get around stealthily, walking the tracks makes a lot of sense. Especially at night.

I was thinking about ckret's theory that the planned DZ was more towards Seattle. If so, then maybe there was no car to retrieve at PDX...although it's unclear how Cooper got to PDX initially.

So then the goal is to get back to Seattle...after an unplanned DZ.

The thing is, if you're hopping trains, it's going to be freight trains, not passenger trains. I guess Seattle's not so far, so just getting on a train going North might get you to Seattle.

But it doesn't seem like a plan someone in a business suit would try. Cooper seemed unfazed with disgusing himself during the hijack. Would he care about someone noticing him on the road or on public transportation?

I'm still thinking he'd stash the money, and retrieve?

If the DZ was unplanned, it's unlikely Cooper would know where the tracks went?

If you drop into a unpredicted DZ, I think it's more likely that you make your way to a town and take your chances with making it thru without being detected. Even if they notice you, hopefully you're gone before anyone connects the dots and detains you.

I've hitchhiked a lot in the past. Longest was from Wyoming to New York. Only 3-4 days, something like 28 rides. Speed is your friend. The most likely thing that comes to mind for me, is not worrying a lot about detection, but just sticking out your thumb, and being able to give a good story to whoever picks you up...Remember Cooper is a master at manipulating the audience right?
So why would he abandon that skill on the ground?

Hitchhike somewhere, and then quickly get on public transportation.

REPLY> Thanks Snow - I appreciate the comments.

He might also avoid a rail line because the police routinely checked rail points for suspects.

So many options, so little time.

[georger 256]

Quote

georger:
Yeah, probably take 8:15, and draw a big area around a predicted LZ, taking into account enough error bounds, and just say "that's it"

You never know. If the FBI suddenly said in the press: "Hey we were wrong about Ariel/Amboy..all you people down here though, does anyone remember something? Assume Cooper lived, there was a canopy..a guy doing stuff at night"...If the FBI did that, some information might come out of the LZ area? Some old farmers there might remember something.


If it was 1972, you could probably interview enough people in the area there and find someone who remembered something. I think in '71-'72, that it sounds like all the "interest" was focused up north..so heavy interviewing probably wasn't done in the right area.

Dogs barking at something at night, etc. That kind of thing.

Probably impossible to get new info this long after '71.

REPLY> The basic reason I have aways favoured a later time (8:15 or even later) is because it brings
the money (and Cooper) closer to the Columbia
and by extension, Tina Bar. I never favoured the
Washougal washdown theory because its too
complicated and potentially destructive to the money.

I remember Safecracking's comments well, when he
was trying to reason things out based on a 2 min
float time, and I remember Safe's skepticism this
would ever work. I was sitting here lurking at the time
and I smiled and thought "Safe is on to something
important". That was the last time I took the Washougal theory seriously. But it left wide open
getting money to Tina Bar. The only real solution
was to move the DZ south or provide an alternate
money route, as I see this.

I take Rataczak's comments VERY seriously. He was
young and alert and with very good skills. If he said
he was seeing Portland then he was seeing it! (I
would set things into motion on that statement alone
given who was making the statement.) To me
Rataczak's statement solves the latitude question.
The only remaining issue is longitude they were on.
But, I have wondered many times what is going on in Sluggo's mind. I cannot help but think he is pleased
Rataczak said what he did because it basically confirms
the work Sluggo did, unless I am missing something?

The big question I have is "why no body?" if Cooper
died in the Orchards-Scotton.... area.

Something is missing.

That is how I currently see this -

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

But, I have wondered many times what is going on in Sluggo's mind. I cannot help but think he is pleased Rataczak said what he did because it basically confirms the work Sluggo did, unless I am missing something?

Hell georger, I don’t even know what is in my mind. Let’s bore open a little hole and peak in there.


There is some “pain” scattered around, it seems to be attached to “regret.” Let me see what’s causing the “pain & regret.” Oh! I see it now, it’s regret that there isn’t a neat panel of experts working on this case, using the most modern tools available. A panel with where the commercial pilot’s knowledge is applied to the aviation issues, the skydiver is the authority on skydiving, the statistician is in charge of statistics, and the Law Enforcement guy takes the lead in the 2008 investigation and acts as the assignment leader (quarterback). So, that’s what is causing the “pain and regret.”

I see a little belief floating around in there, (or maybe it’s faith) it looks like “Weber was Cooper”. It’s attached to a bunch of confidential information that lends credibility to Skyjack71. A little bit of “healthy skepticism” is sitting on it though.

Oh shit! All this stuff just ran out of the hole in Sluggo’s head and got all over the keyboard. I’ll never get it cleaned up! See what you made me do, georger, this is all your fault!

Seriously, I have a bunch of pet theories, but I don’t feel they add anything to the advancement of the “new investigation” so I seldom make public statements about them. However, I may start talking about them in my blog soon. Everybody knows about my feelings about Cooper being sure he was on V-23, so there is no need to repeat it here.

I think this thread is coming to an end soon. My reasoning? This is a skydiving forum. The most active posters are whuffos. We tend to discuss things in a circuitous fashion with absolutely no forward progress. (However, it has been said; “When you don’t have a rudder, all directions are forward.”) It’s just a matter of time, before the PAs will start back. (It’s human-internet nature.)

I would love for someone (maybe me, maybe Ckret, maybe someone else) to form an “Internet Panel for the Investigation of NORJAK” (IPIN), operating parallel to and independently from this (or any) forum. Maybe, we could (as a group) get to work as an auxiliary to the FBI, under their direction, with the appropriate rules and restrictions to prevent privacy violations. We have amassed a large body of talent here, with each individual making meaningful contributions to the “body of knowledge”. But, we flounder because we have very little “real data” about the previous investigative efforts.

If you think my above statements are “pie-in-the-sky” thinking, well… I would say… you’re not a good candidate for IPIN. If it makes sense to you… well… then… e-mail me and let me know if you agree we need a rudder.

Ckret, are you listening?

Thanks,
Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

It seems like Cooper got away with this one, to me.

Does it really matter now, anyhow?

I was thinking what might be the best solution..well obviously it's to rig things up so Duane=Cooper. Everyone will be happy. What's wrong with giving Jo a little pleasure?

We don't really need any evidence, and Duane doesn't really need any skills, other than claiming to be Cooper.
Sure he's got this guilty past of hidden identity, and probably a lot of psycho reasons to fantasize about being Cooper, but let's ignore that. Duane looks like a wussbag, and everytime I see his photo, I can't help but thinking I could kick his ass, so he doesn't really fit the Cooper image I would like, but what the heck...you take what you can get.

I think the only thing in our way is the DNA and fingerprint stuff. So if we can agree that either the DNA is bad or the fingerprints aren't Coopers, or that they didn't get Duane's DNA, then we're done.

Rather than focusing on the stuff we've been focusing on, let's focus on making Duane = Cooper. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, but it might be something we can accomplish.

(edit) Alternate goals to Sluggo's IPIN: there's always the precedent for claiming FBI was involved in a coverup, and we go straight to congressional investigation. This would trump anything Jo has tried to do with her story. So you could pick that as a goal: putting together a good FBI coverup story. We could do a plausible one.

[377 22]

Quote

[I think this thread is coming to an end soon. My reasoning? This is a skydiving forum. The most active posters are whuffos. We tend to discuss things in a circuitous fashion with absolutely no forward progress. (However, it has been said; “When you don’t have a rudder, all directions are forward.”) It’s just a matter of time, before the PAs will start back. (It’s human-internet nature.)

I would love for someone (maybe me, maybe Ckret, maybe someone else) to form an “Internet Panel for the Investigation of NORJAK” (IPIN), operating parallel to and independently from this (or any) forum. Maybe, we could (as a group) get to work as an auxiliary to the FBI, under their direction, with the appropriate rules and restrictions to prevent privacy violations. We have amassed a large body of talent here, with each individual making meaningful contributions to the “body of knowledge”. But, we flounder because we have very little “real data” about the previous investigative efforts.

If you think my above statements are “pie-in-the-sky” thinking, well… I would say… you’re not a good candidate for IPIN. If it makes sense to you… well… then… e-mail me and let me know if you agree we need a rudder.

Ckret, are you listening?

Thanks,
Sluggo_Monster

Sluggo,

Your website is better suited for this stuff, but this forum has FAR more readers and participants. I'd ride it out here. I see no signs of an imminent shutdown.

This forum often lacks scientific rigor and sometimes goes off topic (I am an offender) but it is vibrant active and has a national audience. Also, Ckret is on it which is a huge plus since he has the good stuff (like investigative data from when the case was fresh).

Feel free to set up any adjuncts you wish but don't sign the death certificate for this forum, it's still breathing.

I am still wondering about that shoe. Is it real or urban myth? A single non hiking shoe found in the back country would be very odd. Slip on street shoes do come off in freefall/canopy deployment, I can tell you from first hand experience. I lost one of the pair I was wearing.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

It seems like Cooper got away with this one, to me.

Does it really matter now, anyhow?

I was thinking what might be the best solution..well obviously it's to rig things up so Duane=Cooper. Everyone will be happy. What's wrong with giving Jo a little pleasure?

We don't really need any evidence, and Duane doesn't really need any skills, other than claiming to be Cooper.
Sure he's got this guilty past of hidden identity, and probably a lot of psycho reasons to fantasize about being Cooper, but let's ignore that. Duane looks like a wussbag, and everytime I see his photo, I can't help but thinking I could kick his ass, so he doesn't really fit the Cooper image I would like, but what the heck...you take what you can get.

I think the only thing in our way is the DNA and fingerprint stuff. So if we can agree that either the DNA is bad or the fingerprints aren't Coopers, or that they didn't get Duane's DNA, then we're done.

Rather than focusing on the stuff we've been focusing on, let's focus on making Duane = Cooper. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, but it might be something we can accomplish.

(edit) Alternate goals to Sluggo's IPIN: there's always the precedent for claiming FBI was involved in a coverup, and we go straight to congressional investigation. This would trump anything Jo has tried to do with her story. So you could pick that as a goal: putting together a good FBI coverup story. We could do a plausible one.

I can't come up with a plausible FBI coverup story. They have some black marks in their past (e.g. COINTELPRO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO) but generally they REALLY want to solve crimes, not cover them up. There have been cases that pointed to FBI corruption and they were pursued vigorously with zero coverup efforts (e.g. John Connolly, the rogue FBI agent who helped the mob). When has anyone proven an FBI coverup? I've seen it alleged regarding Vince Foster, JFK, UFOs, etc, but I cannot recall a proven FBI coverup. Am I forgetting some well known sinister FBI event?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 256]

I think when we creat a new LZ, we probably don't care about the oscillations in the transcript. We're probably mostly going from the "time to bump" from the 2005 comment from Cooper...So we can almost ignore all this transcript delay wishy-washy prediction. (edit) or not? cause the 2005 comment is in the logs? so we do have to account for transcript delay?

The jump point seems to be be around 2015, with the visibility of the "portland suburbs" being the stronger identifier, compared to the bump delay after cooper's 2005 communication (transcripts)

We do need to factor in radar tolerance of +-.5 miles in the LZ prediction though?

(edit) and I guess we're willing to say Cooper didn't cross the Columbia based on other pilot testimony on the bump. So maybe the jump point is between 2013 and 2015 or so. (real time, after the 2004 error is corrected)

[georger 256]

Quote

It seems like Cooper got away with this one, to me.

Does it really matter now, anyhow?

I was thinking what might be the best solution..well obviously it's to rig things up so Duane=Cooper. Everyone will be happy. What's wrong with giving Jo a little pleasure?

We don't really need any evidence, and Duane doesn't really need any skills, other than claiming to be Cooper.
Sure he's got this guilty past of hidden identity, and probably a lot of psycho reasons to fantasize about being Cooper, but let's ignore that. Duane looks like a wussbag, and everytime I see his photo, I can't help but thinking I could kick his ass, so he doesn't really fit the Cooper image I would like, but what the heck...you take what you can get.

I think the only thing in our way is the DNA and fingerprint stuff. So if we can agree that either the DNA is bad or the fingerprints aren't Coopers, or that they didn't get Duane's DNA, then we're done.

Rather than focusing on the stuff we've been focusing on, let's focus on making Duane = Cooper. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, but it might be something we can accomplish.

(edit) Alternate goals to Sluggo's IPIN: there's always the precedent for claiming FBI was involved in a coverup, and we go straight to congressional investigation. This would trump anything Jo has tried to do with her story. So you could pick that as a goal: putting together a good FBI coverup story. We could do a plausible one.

REPLY> and I am reminded that most people get lost
and lose their lives 13 miles or less from their homes!
Whether it is snowstorms or traffic accidents or .....
hijackings?

I think we are very close, within 13 miles, and we
should not give up. If that means I am not fit for
some panel chosen by Ckret and Sluggo then so be
it.

This is not my case! Sluggo's case. Snowmman's case, Nuke's case. Jo's case, Safecrack's case, 377's case, Dropzone's case, etc etc etc etc. This is Ckret's case!

Ckret will call the shots and Im happy with that. I like and trust energetic young guys.

[snowmman 3]

I'm all for a good splash theory for Cooper. I agree with georger that Rat.'s testimony is the strongest thing here.

In terms of probability, the surface area of the river vs land area seems to say splash LZ is "less likely" and the predicted jump time vs radar doesn't seem to have Columbia be a high probability LZ..or as you say Rat.'s testimony...It also requires Cooper to no-pull. I'm not really sure why Cooper would no-pull. We've been thru that, and it seems to me probability favors pull, even with no experience. (or little).

But maybe the various facts could be aligned for a splash theory...(or mud theory). What little I've read about the Columbia seems to favor body recovery if Cooper splashed though...so even a splash theory can be iffy.

It would help solve the money issue, although I still have a hard time with a 8-1/2 year canvas bag, somehow making it to Tina Bar post '74....although maybe it got covered by something for a while, or was buried in the water? i.e. cold columbia water may have acted like a refrigerator? So I dunno. I guess we've beat that to death already...

So yeah, that's another alternative. Just put together a splash theory. The data is fuzzy enough that one probably couldn't disprove it.
But it would have to be a splash down where the flight path crosses the columbia...not up by Tina Bar.

The money to Tina Bar is problematic, but again it wouldn't be provable that it's "impossible".

Sluggo's pretty much right. We've run out of things to discuss.

I have found some world war II oral history references where air force vets used the phraseology "chest chute" and "back chute" ....the ball-turret gunners got chest chutes. They had to leave them off to operate the guns apparently.

Here's a page from a book that documents the parachute training the poor guys got.....(attached)

I was also wondering about the request for two chest chutes. Maybe Cooper knew the money wouldn't fit in one, and he was planning on stuffing it in two chest containers...but abandoned the plan when d-rings were missing on the NB-6 harness.

(edit) Hey, he might have even asked for two back chutes because he knew some didn't have the D-rings?
and he wanted to increase the odds of being able to use the chest containers? ...Long shot.

[snowmman 3]

I'm always interested in the full background of everything in this case, to help understand how people might look at things.

I think I posted the NYT article before, but apparently Himmelsbach was a WWII fighter pilot. (P-40)

here's the google news snippet.

Agent to Give Up 8-Year Hunt for Hijacker; Mandatory Retirement ...
New York Times - Feb 22, 1980
After the plane was hijacked, Mr. Himmelsbach, a P-40 fighter pilot in World War II who was assigned most F.B.I. cases here dealing with aviation because ...

(edit) full article from NYT attached.
Note this article also incorrectly (I think) puts H. in a helicopter trying to intercept 305 that night. I think? we agree that the helicopter that night was National Guard and flown by the two pilots previously named? And that H. wasn't in a heli till the next night. Be nice if Ckret could confirm those details.

(edit) What's weird is there's a quote there where it sounds like Himmelsbach is saying he WAS in the helicoptor that night. I'm very confused about this issue.


(edit) I love the use of the quote "morally certain" in the article.

[377 22]

If Cooper splashed...

Bodies do disappear in the ocean. They don't go into the fourth dimension, but they do sink, are attacked by crabs and other scavengers who rip things up before any cavities can fill with decompostion gas products and refloat the corpse. Crabs can really work fast when they are numerous and hungry. They are competitive little beasts.

There have been numerous cases where a man overboard in the ocean goes under in full view of his would be rescuers and is never seen again.

I don't know if a similar phenomena happens in fresh water bodies of the type found in the likely Cooper LZ.

Coopers gear wouldn't float up later if it went down with him. Wet nylon is not positively bouyant. I went out on a recovery boat on a USAF ANG Pararescue ocean drop exercise a few years ago. Their canopies sink when they have to cut them away.

I want Cooper to have survived the jump, but I have to admit that a splash could explain why no body or gear was ever found. I guess you'd have to find a likely splash point that was deep enough and relatively dormant to explain why his remains would not have washed up somewhere.

Phat or Splat?
Cash or Splash?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

(edit) I love the use of the quote "morally certain" in the article.

Might come from the jury instruction.

WASHINGTON, March 22
Examining the way judges instruct juries on finding guilt beyond a
reasonable doubt, the Supreme Court today warned states that a common
definition of reasonable doubt that refers to jurors' "moral
certainty" of guilt is outdated and potentially confusing.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 256]

Quote

I'm all for a good splash theory for Cooper. I agree with georger that Rat.'s testimony is the strongest thing here.

In terms of probability, the surface area of the river vs land area seems to say splash LZ is "less likely" and the predicted jump time vs radar doesn't seem to have Columbia be a high probability LZ..or as you say Rat.'s testimony...It also requires Cooper to no-pull. I'm not really sure why Cooper would no-pull. We've been thru that, and it seems to me probability favors pull, even with no experience. (or little).

But maybe the various facts could be aligned for a splash theory...(or mud theory). What little I've read about the Columbia seems to favor body recovery if Cooper splashed though...so even a splash theory can be iffy.

It would help solve the money issue, although I still have a hard time with a 7-1/2 year canvas bag, somehow making it to Tina Bar post '74....although maybe it got covered by something for a while, or was buried in the water? i.e. cold columbia water may have acted like a refrigerator? So I dunno. I guess we've beat that to death already...

REPLY> I want to be crystal clear about this.

Rataczak's statement is: (1) could see suburbs of Portland and (b) WE HAD NOT CROSSED THE COLUMBIA YET (when they felt the bump).

So unless forward throw, drift, and variables in the
flight path put Cooper in the Columbia basin, a splash theory is not warranted.

What troubles me about this scenario is (1) why
wasn't his body or his things found if he bailed in
an urban area? (2) what explains the condition of
the money and where did the rest of the money go?
Are we looking at money that sat on dry land for years
or was exposed (emersed) in water. I think it is dry
land!

These two questions above are central no matter where he bails. Somehow, the answers to those questions are wrapped up in Rataczack's statement.

But a splash theory is not warranted yet, as I see this.
And Rataczack's statement may even preclude it.

• Quote

[377 22]

Why didn't Cooper bring his own rig? Would have saved LOTS of time and would have totally spoofed the cops who would have been expecting him to land with the plane somewhere. Once he asked for the chutes, it was clearly going to be a jump and run situation. I have put rigs in overhead racks back in the day. It was easy, just bag it and nobody knew what it was or showed any concern or interest.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Why didn't Cooper bring his own rig? Would have saved LOTS of time and would have totally spoofed the cops who would have been expecting him to land with the plane somewhere. Once he asked for the chutes, it was clearly going to be a jump and run situation. I have put rigs in overhead racks back in the day. It was easy, just bag it and nobody knew what it was or showed any concern or interest.

377

the simplest explanation? Cooper wasn't a jumper. He didn't own a rig? If he had bought a rig, that would have left an evidence trail? (that's why I'm buying my NB6 w/28' canopy off ebay thru an intermediary! ;)

In '71, how easy/hard would it have been to get a rig if you weren't a jumper? it would have to be a personal rig? a stolen rig (say from military) might be noticed post-hijack and point to you?

(edit) also it would have to be packed? if you weren't a jumper, getting a good packed rig might be difficult? you wouldn't want to pack it yourself?