DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Everything I read about Cooper screams "pilot" not "jumper" to me. Skills, attitude, knowledge, apparent comfort with situation as it unfolded.

If I was the FBI back then, I would have taken the current FAA database of licensed pilots, and investigated everyone that met the description. Couldn't have been that many.

I wonder if the FBI did this.

Does anyone else feel this way? It doesn't scream jumper to me. Maybe ex military pilot, but odds would favor that ex military pilot might still be private licensed pilot?

Note that McCoy was pilot (helicopter).

[snowmman 3]

on page vii these people apparently read/reviewed the book and provided comments

"Paul Soderlind, Former Director, Flight Operations-Technical, Northwest AIrlines, says: "Richard, you have handled the story very well, and I am glad I was able to contribute.

Alice Hancock, Stewardess, Flight 305, says: "It's very informative and excellent reading, I thoroughly enjoyed every page.

Tom Manning, Former FBI Agent who led the search for Cooper, says: "Compliments to my friend, Richard Tosaw, for his painstaking research and interesting analysis of this fascinating case.

William Rataczak, Copilot, Flight 305 says: "Mr Tosaw has cut through the very technical details of a complex nightmare to successfully capture the very real-life drama of one of the 20th century's most bizarre, and yet unsolved, crimes."

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Recall though that they were packed with fuel. 50,000 pounds adds a significant amount of weight. They were probably heavier than the PDX to SEA segment where the hijacking started.

They also had all the luggage onboard.

Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

(repost: I keep overwriting by mistake)

Now I don't know about this part. Ckret has told us there were some instructions with the chutes. Maybe the "instructions" were confused with the "rigger's card".

I'm really confused about this opening of the parachute though.

Page 30

"The first thing Cooper did when he began examining the sage-green military back chute was to take the packer's card from its pocket on the inside flap. He could see the date Cossey had packed the chute and also his signature and certification number from the U.S. Parachute Association. [ed. specultion by Tosaw?]. He then opened the parachute and examined the nylon panels and suspension lines. Tina was impressed with the professional way in which he went about his examination"

Now this paragraph seems to have some speculation.
It does seem to say Tina observed this.
So I don't know what to think.

page 32
"Finally, at 7:10 p.m., almost an hour and a half after beginning, the fuel gauge on the 727 showed a full load of 51,500 pounds. Cooper was notified that the refueling was completed. "Let's get the show on the road," he replied as he closed the military backpack he had apparently chosen.

Maybe literary license in this last paragraph.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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? I thought we went thru this. It's gravity right? So no deployment till you weight them? I thought there's nothing that "pushes" them down.

It is controlled by the "B" hydraulic system.

But, It's is possible that it could be lowered by gravity and raised hydraulically.

We need a B-727 expert to answer this.

Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

On the high resolution PDX flight path map
available here from sluggo:
http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/FBI%20Flight%20Path%20PDX.jpg

We have discussed the red ticks underneath the flight path pencil line.

However there are 3+1 red ticks, larger, made with the same pencil, west of Portland. Don't know why these were made.

see attached for zoom-in of them.

[377 22]

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The first thing Cooper did when he began examining the sage-green military back chute was to take the packer's card from its pocket on the inside flap.

How many people would know where to find a packing card? It isn't very obvious on most military bailout rigs. Another clue about Cooper's experience?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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unless time and disatance are accurate -
this is why I questioned the large variation in ground
speeds between markers on Sluggo's map. I mean its
impossible to be doing say 160 kts one minute and 235 the next, then back to say 175 - unless you are a UFO! I mean either the radar data is accurate or it isnt.
The overall slope (average) of the data seems within
acceptable range but these large variations one minute to the next seem to make anything possible
when it wasn't (if physics applies).

I was watching my GPSr while jogging this morning. I was moving at about 5.28 ft/sec (3.6 mph) the error (random) on the GPS was about 14 feet with it updating every 1 sec. I would get 3.1 mph, then 3.7 mph, then 3.3 mph etc. I promise I wasn’t speeding up and slowing down, it was just random error. It is the same as the radar plot, fixed time interval with random error and relatively constant speed.

The same is true for the Radar plot. The error was plus or minus 0.5 NM with the plane going about 2.8 NM /min. So if the radar error was north on the first point and south on the second point the two points would be 3.8 NM apart. (I’m using numbers from memory, so don’t think they are real.)

That’s why I did the average of all the plot point derived ground speed. Any single one has HUGE error.

Sluggo_Monster

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[AggieDave 6]

Drug Recognition Expert.

LEOs trained to, through a seres of tests, to deterimine what category or type of drug the individual is intoxicated with.

Those tests are based on pupil size, nystagmus, lack of convergence and a laundry list of other non-invasive test.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[snowmman 3]

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The first thing Cooper did when he began examining the sage-green military back chute was to take the packer's card from its pocket on the inside flap.

How many people would know where to find a packing card? It isn't very obvious on most military bailout rigs. Another clue about Cooper's experience?

377

We'll have to wait for Ckret. But in mentally reviewing things, Ckret just told us Cooper was probably not an experienced jumper, I think solely based on dress, and not worrying (apparently) about the LZ. I don't think Ckret told us anything about how Cooper interacted with chutes. He did say Cooper rigged while 305 was on the ground. Ckret said Cooper said he didn't need the instructions (although may have consulted them afterwards)

Ckret commented on the modified rip on Cosey's rig.
(right side, plus out and up pull?, if I remember correctly)

So in hindsight, we've not had much data from Ckret that confirms the novice jumper status? Other than mostly "Cooper did something that appeared risky to experts".

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

Here you go!

Boy! I’m feeling like snowmman, my searches are actually successful!

This answers two previous questions: Gravity actuation of the aft stair and whether the pilot(s) can open the door from the cockpit. (I know we resolved the latter, but I like to see it in an official document.)

There are 2 control handles for the airstairs on a B727, one under a panel on the lower fuselage right beside the stair forward hinge point, and one at the top of the stairs behind a panel on the left side which can only be accessed when the rear cabin door is open. Because the cabin door can only be opened when the aircraft is unpressurized, this usually would prevent its actuation in flight. However, after the D B Cooper hijacking a device was added referred to as an anti-hijack vane that would swing over when the aircraft was in flight and prevent the door opening. To close the door either an electric hydraulic pump has to be turned on in the cockpit, or a hand pump beside the lower control operated while either handle is held to the close position. The door will free fall open without hydraulic pressure, but the support arms may have to be pushed to an overcenter position.

Source(s):
B727 AMM.
Endorsement course for B727

Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

Tosaw's account is pretty much in line with what Ckret has said. However it's more detailed.

page 10

"Cooper was a heavy smoker and often reached into his shirt pocket to take out a pack of Raleigh filter-tip cigarettes. Sometimes he would light his own cigarette, but occasionally when he wanted to keep hold of the wire in his briefcase, he had Tina light his cigarette while he held it in his mouth. When the matchbook he had given her was empty, she put it in the ashtray in the arm of the seat and went to get some company matches. While she was getting them from the cabinet behind his seat, she saw him take the empty book from the ashtray and put it in his pocket. Tina remembered part of the advertisement on the match cover read: "Earn A High School Diploma"
"

[ed. I think the matchbook means nothing. Typical of free matches. But it's interesting he retrieved the empty matchbook?]

(edit) oh ps. elsewhere Tosaw mentions Cooper cutting the suspension lines with his own pocketknife that he had in his pocket.

[snowmman 3]

this is a weird thing Tosaw mentions.

after telling them that everything must be delivered to Sea-Tac by 5 o'clock, Cooper adds:

' ..."also tell them not to be sending any other kind of messages because my bomb is electronic and certain signals might set it off."

Tina reported all this to the cockpit on the interphone. The crew was somewhat puzzled by the hijacker's statement but assumed he meant that the standard hijack distress signal would set off the bomb. After discussing the matter, they figured it had to be a bluff because if a radio signal to headquarters would not affect the bomb, then neither would a hijack signal. They decided, however not to send the signal and instead let the company handle the entire matter.'


This all is interesting to me. Cooper had to know they were using the radio. Was he trying to intimidate them into not sending a squawk signal, knowing it would be used for tracking? It's all very odd. Maybe reveals aviation knowledge. At the very least it might explain why no squawk was sent? This was before the plane landed in Seattle.

Or maybe he just was trying to get them to minimize radio traffic, figuring the less the better, for him.

[377 22]

Quote

Drug Recognition Expert.

LEOs trained to, through a seres of tests, to deterimine what category or type of drug the individual is intoxicated with.

Those tests are based on pupil size, nystagmus, lack of convergence and a laundry list of other non-invasive test.

Too bad Tina wasn't also an SRE, Skydiver Recognition Expert. The non-invasive tests include screening for debt, unemployment and divorce.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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To close the door either an electric hydraulic pump has to be turned on in the cockpit, or a hand pump beside the lower control operated while either handle is held to the close position. The door will free fall open without hydraulic pressure, but the support arms may have to be pushed to an overcenter position.

You da 27 man Sluggo. Checklist complete.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[happythoughts 0]

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The first thing Cooper did when he began examining the sage-green military back chute was to take the packer's card from its pocket on the inside flap.

How many people would know where to find a packing card? It isn't very obvious on most military bailout rigs. Another clue about Cooper's experience?

377

Actually... a more interesting question than that...

Who would want to look at it?

Only a skydiver would be interested in the packing card.

Hand a non-jumper a packing data card and ask them what information is on it. Most of it looks like scribbles. An acronym like IRR and the riggers initials and a date. To a non-jumper, it is gibberish and valueless.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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They also had all the luggage onboard.

Sluggo_Monster

Yep. Despite the fact they had only one passenger they were actually fairly heavy.

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That’s why I did the average of all the plot point derived ground speed. Any single one has HUGE error.

You and I talked about this about a month ago, but you get similar numbers if you even start looking at 5 or 10 minute intervals.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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on page vii these people apparently read/reviewed the book and provided comments

"Paul Soderlind, Former Director, Flight Operations-Technical, Northwest AIrlines, says: "Richard, you have handled the story very well, and I am glad I was able to contribute.

Alice Hancock, Stewardess, Flight 305, says: "It's very informative and excellent reading, I thoroughly enjoyed every page.

Tom Manning, Former FBI Agent who led the search for Cooper, says: "Compliments to my friend, Richard Tosaw, for his painstaking research and interesting analysis of this fascinating case.

William Rataczak, Copilot, Flight 305 says: "Mr Tosaw has cut through the very technical details of a complex nightmare to successfully capture the very real-life drama of one of the 20th century's most bizarre, and yet unsolved, crimes."

I still have my doubts. That aside, the question then becomes if all of this stuff Tosaw i saying is an accurate representation of what Cooper actually said and did... How did The FBI drop the ball so bad in the interviews (no offense to Ckret who obviously wasn't involved).

[snowmman 3]

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The first thing Cooper did when he began examining the sage-green military back chute was to take the packer's card from its pocket on the inside flap.

How many people would know where to find a packing card? It isn't very obvious on most military bailout rigs. Another clue about Cooper's experience?

377

Actually... a more interesting question than that...

Who would want to look at it?

Only a skydiver would be interested in the packing card.

Hand a non-jumper a packing data card and ask them what information is on it. Most of it looks like scribbles. An acronym like IRR and the riggers initials and a date. To a non-jumper, it is gibberish and valueless.

Good point happythoughts. Maybe this is just myth, although I can't see why Tosaw would create such a myth. Sluggo has this rigger's card issue as myth as his site. He says there's no investigative record to confirm it.

But then again, out of the blue, Ckret introduced this idea of an instruction sheet with the chutes, when we discussed the customized rip.

Is there even a rigger's card pocket in the place Tosaw described? Is that detail accurate on a NB-6? Would a military rigger insert such a card? Military packs don't put USPA cards in there do they? I guess they put something? what? I know nothing about this stuff.

post 2593 from ckret:

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In true Cooper fashion, when Tina tried to give him the instruction sheet he said, "I don't need those."

There was no other mention of the instruction sheet after that.

Ckret originally introduced "instructions" here inside post 2577

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Cooper jumped with a chute that had obviously been modified for one individual, it's owner. One more thing that just hit me, Cooper was given an instruction sheet on the chutes, wonder if it was Cossey trying to tell Cooper, "there's something you should know about one of these chutes...."

[snowmman 3]

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They also had all the luggage onboard.

Sluggo_Monster

Yep. Despite the fact they had only one passenger they were actually fairly heavy.

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That’s why I did the average of all the plot point derived ground speed. Any single one has HUGE error.

You and I talked about this about a month ago, but you get similar numbers if you even start looking at 5 or 10 minute intervals.

Nuke, I'm confused.... If each point is accurate to .5NM, then if you look at pairs that are 5 or more legs apart, the percentage error effect should go way down?..
i.e. compute using pts 1 and 6, then 2 and 7 then 3 and 8. etc. That's what you did? and it still didn't make sense in terms of plane capabilities? Can you post the calcs you did (can use the NM for each leg and sum them up, from sluggo's leg jpg???)

[Mr.Nuke 0]

is a weird thing Tosaw mentions.

after telling them that everything must be delivered to Sea-Tac by 5 o'clock, Cooper adds:

' ..."also tell them not to be sending any other kind of messages because my bomb is electronic and certain signals might set it off."

Tina reported all this to the cockpit on the interphone. The crew was somewhat puzzled by the hijacker's statement but assumed he meant that the standard hijack distress signal would set off the bomb. After discussing the matter, they figured it had to be a bluff because if a radio signal to headquarters would not affect the bomb, then neither would a hijack signal. They decided, however not to send the signal and instead let the company handle the entire matter.'

Quote

This all is interesting to me. Cooper had to know they were using the radio. Was he trying to intimidate them into not sending a squawk signal, knowing it would be used for tracking? It's all very odd. Maybe reveals aviation knowledge. At the very least it might explain why no squawk was sent? This was before the plane landed in Seattle.

Or maybe he just was trying to get them to minimize radio traffic, figuring the less the better, for him.

Either Cooper is taking out of his you know what or he is trying to intimidate the crew. Not "intimidating them into not sending them a squawk signal" just plain intimidating them. If someone gave me a message like that I would assume, just like the crew, they meant don't go to 7500, which is the code for Unlawful Interference aka hijacking.

To answer your questions though...

Squawking the signal has little to do with tracking. For Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) in the U.S. (IFR is what all commercial flights operated under), a plane is generally assigned a transponder code at the clearance delivery stage on the ground and it stays with that aircraft the entire flight. So tracking isn't an issue.

It is more a backup way of letting ATC know you have a situation on board. If you have a guy in the cockpit with you demanding you don't tell air traffic control you are being hijacked you may be able to get away with changing your transponder to the code.

As for explaining why no squawk was sent... If you are referring to the code the crew was supposed to send when Cooper jumped it doesn't. That code wasn't the hijack code, it was a code given by ATC that Cooper would not have any knowledge of. If you are referring to the hijack code, they obviously were able to communicate the message over the radio.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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They also had all the luggage onboard.

Sluggo_Monster

Yep. Despite the fact they had only one passenger they were actually fairly heavy.

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That’s why I did the average of all the plot point derived ground speed. Any single one has HUGE error.

You and I talked about this about a month ago, but you get similar numbers if you even start looking at 5 or 10 minute intervals.

Nuke, I'm confused.... If each point is accurate to .5NM, then if you look at pairs that are 5 or more legs apart, the percentage error effect should go way down?..
i.e. compute using pts 1 and 6, then 2 and 7 then 3 and 8. etc. That's what you did? and it still didn't make sense in terms of plane capabilities? Can you post the calcs you did (can use the NM for each leg and sum them up, from sluggo's leg jpg???)

Sorry I worded that post terribly. I meant that you get similar numbers to the entire average if you start looking at 5 or 10 or 15, etc. min. intervals. Again sorry for wording that terribly. I will go back and try and find the data here at some point. I also have a table of what ground speeds would be at varying indicated airspeeds based on the wind data from Orchard.

[snowmman 3]

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Either Cooper is taking out of his you know what or he is trying to intimidate the crew. Not "intimidating them into not sending them a squawk signal" just plain intimidating them.

Nuke:
I'm glad you picked up on that too. Thruout all my reading, I'm struck by how Cooper's communications were all one-way. They weren't give and take. They were all commands. Cooper never seemed to "probe" for information.

I was thinking if it was me, even if I planned things, I'd be probing a bit, give and take, to get a feel for whether there was anything I overlooked.

But Cooper didn't seem to do that. It's like he had zero questions for the crew. Either he was nuts or he knew exactly how things were going to go down, and the only need for human communication was for issuing orders.

Very strange.

[snowmman 3]

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on page vii these people apparently read/reviewed the book and provided comments

"Paul Soderlind, Former Director, Flight Operations-Technical, Northwest AIrlines, says: "Richard, you have handled the story very well, and I am glad I was able to contribute.

Alice Hancock, Stewardess, Flight 305, says: "It's very informative and excellent reading, I thoroughly enjoyed every page.

Tom Manning, Former FBI Agent who led the search for Cooper, says: "Compliments to my friend, Richard Tosaw, for his painstaking research and interesting analysis of this fascinating case.

William Rataczak, Copilot, Flight 305 says: "Mr Tosaw has cut through the very technical details of a complex nightmare to successfully capture the very real-life drama of one of the 20th century's most bizarre, and yet unsolved, crimes."

I still have my doubts. That aside, the question then becomes if all of this stuff Tosaw i saying is an accurate representation of what Cooper actually said and did... How did The FBI drop the ball so bad in the interviews (no offense to Ckret who obviously wasn't involved).

We don't know what's in the FBI interviews. For instance, even though the FBI summary mentioned 30 degrees, and Tosaw mentioned 30 degrees (flaps), we didn't hear anything about it from ckret until recently.

Even the thing about Tina lighting the cigarettes for Cooper was an offhand thing Ckret said. It was in Tosaw's book.

So who knows what the FBI knows. That page showing how the LZ was computed in '72, was page 272. So does that mean it was part of a >272 page report? If so, it would be nice to see that whole report.

[georger 256]

Thanks Nuke.