DB Cooper

[377 22]

Cockpit escape techniques are part of normal safety training and are in the airline flight and training manuals. I am guessing they are referring to something else, some info that had to be obtained friom Boeing, some question that the flight crew and NWA ops couldnt answer.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[mrshutter45 21]

agreed, but IMO the PTSD had not set in on Tina right after the left the plane and spoke with the FBI, and whether she is suffering from it or not, nobody knows for sure.

my observation is it's possible that Tina's perception is much different from Flo's, you don't need a traumatic event in order to have different conclusions to what someone has seen. you would think since Tina spent more time with him that she should have a good description, yet years later Flo says none of the sketches really looked like Cooper, which one is suffering a traumatic event, one or both? or did they both have a bad perception of describing Cooper? can we blame it on stress, or just bad judgement?

I agree that this has probably damaged Tina over the years, but I'm not sold has to the amount of damage right after the crime, if that makes sense?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Amazon 7]

Quote

agreed, but IMO the PTSD had not set in on Tina right after the left the plane and spoke with the FBI, and whether she is suffering from it or not, nobody knows for sure.

my observation is it's possible that Tina's perception is much different from Flo's, you don't need a traumatic event in order to have different conclusions to what someone has seen. you would think since Tina spent more time with him that she should have a good description, yet years later Flo says none of the sketches really looked like Cooper, which one is suffering a traumatic event, one or both? or did they both have a bad perception of describing Cooper? can we blame it on stress, or just bad judgement?

I agree that this has probably damaged Tina over the years, but I'm not sold has to the amount of damage right after the crime, if that makes sense?

Many people right after a life threatening event are essentially babbling idiots.

It ain't purty to see at all

[georger 244]

Quote

agreed, but IMO the PTSD had not set in on Tina right after the left the plane and spoke with the FBI, and whether she is suffering from it or not, nobody knows for sure.

my observation is it's possible that Tina's perception is much different from Flo's, you don't need a traumatic event in order to have different conclusions to what someone has seen. you would think since Tina spent more time with him that she should have a good description, yet years later Flo says none of the sketches really looked like Cooper, which one is suffering a traumatic event, one or both? or did they both have a bad perception of describing Cooper? can we blame it on stress, or just bad judgement?

I agree that this has probably damaged Tina over the years, but I'm not sold has to the amount of damage right after the crime, if that makes sense?

I agree with this approach - yours. This is why I say:
we would have to talk to Tina to really know, but
Tina was only one party contributing to the profile
sketch. The sketches are an agreement between
many witnesses, not just Tina.

Does Geoff Gray single out Tina in his book for
special treatment/description? Does Geoff speak to
Tina's description of Cooper, or Tina particular role
in the development of the FBI sketches? I think not,

Does Gray single out Flo in the same manner?
Evidently there was nothing in the files Geoff read to
make singling these people out noteworthy..

The sketches, as Ckret explained, is a consensus
among all of the witnesses which Ckret described as
being in 'close agreement', as a whole. It does not
rest on Tina alone, whatever her state.

I fear this stuff about Tina's "state" is being used as
a red herring (straw man) for a problem which did
not exist in the first place, if you believe Ckret
description of the 'process' which resulted in
sketches.

There is no actual evidence whatever that Tina was
a 'babling idiot?' following the events, unable to
function, and gave an erroneous description of
Cooper. I am rather sure if Geoff Gray reading the
files had picked that up he would have reported it -
he did not.

I ask myself: how would a physical anthropologist
group these sketches and assess them, looking at
them for consistency/reliability in desacribing
physical parameters? To me they fall into three
groups: (a) the original FBi sketches + Flo's
independent sketch, (b) the single fuller faced
sketch which shows different proportions, and (c)
Geoff new sketch based on one witness.

And there is no disagreement between all of the
parties as to general height!

So the veracity of the sketches does not rely on
Tina's emotional state alone, if at all.

And on the issue of height, there is no general
disagreement.

Consider for a moment what it would be if these
sketches turned out to be 'very accurate'! I mean we
are taken to the one extreme (not accurate) by a
group of people - why not shift to the other extreme
just for the sake of arguement, for a change! If
these sketches were "very accurate" then we are
looking for a guy who has very specific features, who
has not been found to date. Something would have
to explain that! The truth, may be somewhere in the
middle ... with doomsday and the "sketch cliff"
averted! Life may continue after all!

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Quote

agreed, but IMO the PTSD had not set in on Tina right after the left the plane and spoke with the FBI, and whether she is suffering from it or not, nobody knows for sure.

my observation is it's possible that Tina's perception is much different from Flo's, you don't need a traumatic event in order to have different conclusions to what someone has seen. you would think since Tina spent more time with him that she should have a good description, yet years later Flo says none of the sketches really looked like Cooper, which one is suffering a traumatic event, one or both? or did they both have a bad perception of describing Cooper? can we blame it on stress, or just bad judgement?

I agree that this has probably damaged Tina over the years, but I'm not sold has to the amount of damage right after the crime, if that makes sense?

I agree with this approach - yours. This is why I say:
we would have to talk to Tina to really know, but
Tina was only one party contributing to the profile
sketch. The sketches are an agreement between
many witnesses, not just Tina.

Does Geoff Gray single out Tina in his book for
special treatment/description? Does Geoff speak to
Tina's description of Cooper, or Tina particular role
in the development of the FBI sketches? I think not,

Does Gray single out Flo in the same manner?
Evidently there was nothing in the files Geoff read to
make singling these people out noteworthy..

The sketches, as Ckret explained, is a consensus
among all of the witnesses which Ckret described as
being in 'close agreement', as a whole. It does not
rest on Tina alone, whatever her state.

I fear this stuff about Tina's "state" is being used as
a red herring (straw man) for a problem which did
not exist in the first place, if you believe Ckret
description of the 'process' which resulted in
sketches.

There is no actual evidence whatever that Tina was
a 'babling idiot?' following the events, unable to
function, and gave an erroneous description of
Cooper. I am rather sure if Geoff Gray reading the
files had picked that up he would have reported it -
he did not.

I ask myself: how would a physical anthropologist
group these sketches and assess them, looking at
them for consistency/reliability in desacribing
physical parameters? To me they fall into three
groups: (a) the original FBi sketches + Flo's
independent sketch, (b) the single fuller faced
sketch which shows different proportions, and (c)
Geoff new sketch based on one witness.

And there is no disagreement between all of the
parties as to general height!

So the veracity of the sketches does not rely on
Tina's emotional state alone, if at all.

And on the issue of height, there is no general
disagreement.

Consider for a moment what it would be if these
sketches turned out to be 'very accurate'! I mean we
are taken to the one extreme (not accurate) by a
group of people - why not shift to the other extreme
just for the sake of arguement, for a change! If
these sketches were "very accurate" then we are
looking for a guy who has very specific features, who
has not been found to date. Something would have
to explain that! The truth, may be somewhere in the
middle ... with doomsday and the "sketch cliff"
averted! Life may continue after all!

Sketch cliff
The sketches could turn out to be close, but I have noticed one thing ? (see photo)
sometimes we just can't get it right (see photo)

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

you must have put the picture on here twice? this was the pic I was looking at, missing lower half.

OF COURSE A HORSE is A HORSE of Course!

The picture was taken on a hill and I have the complete photo.
I had to enlarge and crop it so the face could be seen and the "uniform" for lack of knowledge of what-ever he was wearing. I didn't think the Briefcase or music case was important - but obviously someone else does. I looks more like a music case or a pilots case instead of a regular brief case. Why I thought pilot or music director.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

you must have put the picture on here twice? this was the pic I was looking at, missing lower half.

OF COURSE A HORSE is A HORSE of Course!

The picture was taken on a hill and I have the complete photo.
I had to enlarge and crop it so the face could be seen and the "uniform" for lack of knowledge of what-ever he was wearing. I didn't think the Briefcase or music case was important - but obviously someone else does. I looks more like a music case or a pilots case instead of a regular brief case. Why I thought pilot or music director.

Jo, The area in the immediate vicinity of Temple Square is quite flat. In addition, the scenery behind the man does NOT resemble any entrance to Temple Square that I have ever seen. And that building does not match the types that are on Temple Square.

The briefcase is exactly that, a medium thickness attache case. There is no indication of what it might contain but it is definitely NOT a pilot's case.

The "uniform" that the man is wearing reminds me of Captain Kangroo's double knits, but of a much darker color. And I definitely doubt that you would find such clothes at Temple Square.

I see absolutely nothing in that photograph that indicates any connection with Salt Lake City or even Utah.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

you must have put the picture on here twice? this was the pic I was looking at, missing lower half.

OF COURSE A HORSE is A HORSE of Course!

The picture was taken on a hill and I have the complete photo.
I had to enlarge and crop it so the face could be seen and the "uniform" for lack of knowledge of what-ever he was wearing. I didn't think the Briefcase or music case was important - but obviously someone else does. I looks more like a music case or a pilots case instead of a regular brief case. Why I thought pilot or music director.

Jo, The area in the immediate vicinity of Temple Square is quite flat. In addition, the scenery behind the man does NOT resemble any entrance to Temple Square that I have ever seen. And that building does not match the types that are on Temple Square.

JO INSERT THIS EMPHATICALLY!
The building was the Assembly Hall and the picture was made up grade (perhaps you do NOT call it a hill) from the entrance within the grounds of the Mormon Church. The picture of the building in its entirety perhaps will REFRESH your mind.
This was established by the Sisters and others in Salt Lake.

YOU must never have been there - I have in my album a picture of the building (a picture I took) and of the Markers at the site I took the picture from. Since these pictures do not show the man I never felt the need to scan them and will NOT just to put you in your PLACE, Mr. Know IT ALL! I have never said it was at an entrance.

The briefcase is exactly that, a medium thickness attache case. There is no indication of what it might contain but it is definitely NOT a pilot's case.

The "uniform" that the man is wearing reminds me of Captain Kangroo's double knits, but of a much darker color. And I definitely doubt that you would find such clothes at Temple Square.

I see absolutely nothing in that photograph that indicates any connection with Salt Lake City or even Utah.

Robert99

A STRONG ADDENDUM:

Just who do YOU think YOU are trying to fool. Pehaps otherS who have NEVER been there. JUST what DO you think you are doing.
THIS alone tells me you are some kind of phoney IN THIS THREAD - just to try to discredit anyone from telling this part of the story - one that I lived and have pictures to prove. I take you to TASK on this because I have the pictures and the negatives.

I AM NOT A MORON NOR ARE OTHERS IN THIS THREAD.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

The sketches could turn out to be close, but I have noticed one thing ? (see photo)
sometimes we just can't get it right (see photo)

[georger 244]

Quote

General note: If the sketches are so accurate as to nearly represent a photo of the hijacker...and the FBI is so sure of them...then WHY would the FBI spend soooo much time interviewing over a thousand suspects in the crime? Unless you believe that all of these suspects resembled the sketch?

Why? Dont gets you diaper in a dither.

Standard Operating Procedure.

[skyjack71 0]

JUST A PICTURE OF THE BUILDING THE MAN WAS WALKING IN FRONT OF.

THE ASSEMBLY HALL


If I called you the names I am verbalizing here in my office I would be Banned for Life on the thread - so I refuse to let the LIKE of you to continue to encite me.

I have taken MY pain medication at this time because I had a hard day, but I would LIKE to see an EXPLANATION FROM YOU BEFORE I LEAVE!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

what the witnesses told the FBI after the hijacking.

I've already mentioned a list of people who, according to Gray, gave widely varying descriptions

Robert Gregory,

between Tina and Flo.

"Just because you fail once doesn't mean you're gonna fail at everything..."

Marilyn Monroe

There you go again, Marilyn, exaggerating the size
of your horn section ...

Witnesses! LOTS OF EM!
List! HUMONGOUS LIST!

Robert Gregory
Tina/Flo (close in height)

Thats one helluva a large list Marilyn. Witnesses, all
two of them.

So let me assist. Add Simmons and his wife -
maybe. Guess Geoff left Simmons off the long liost
running five pages... but I will add him and the Mrs.
Now you have 2 1/2.

Add the college kid across from Cooper. Now you
have 3 1/2

You need more witnesses, lists, and horns, Marilyn.

Try Victoria's Secret. There must be an outfit in the
closest never seen before... put it on and trot it out
on the runway ............ make sure the batteries
work.

[skyjack71 0]

GET THE PICTURE!

I AM WAITING FOR A REPLY!
MR. ROBERT99 !

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[mrshutter45 21]

well, it's bad enough we have different descriptions from eyewitnesses, we also have people matching photo's to the sketches, some have an exact match? I don't think the odds are that good on a exact match from sketch to photo.

let's take a look at the suspects all together?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

In my opinion, the first floor level windows in the large Assembly Hall picture do in fact match the first floor level window behind the man in Jo's original picture. By this thread's standards, that is absolute proof.

Jo, For the record, I have spent plenty of time on multiple visits to Salt Lake City at the Family History Library, which is just across the street on the west side from the Assembly Hall. And also at the former Hotel Utah (now the Joseph Smith Building) just across the street on the east side from the Temple itself.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

try this test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfhIuaD183I

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

Quote

GET THE PICTURE!

I AM WAITING FOR A REPLY!
MR. ROBERT99 !

And I am waiting for a reply from you about your claims that "someone", obviously meaning me, had altered one of your posts.

In fact, you altered your own post and then edited it. Since you usually claim ignorance in these matters, a summary of this is in post 38655.

What is your reply?

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

IF I indeed made those remark, I must have taken my medication. I am now taking meds for pain. I question it because it was JUST not something I say - but an echo of what JT used to bellow out all of the time.

If you need PROOF that pic was made in Salt Lake with the Assembly Hall as background I have the pictures, but do NOT post private images of myself on the thread or elsewhere. You KNEW it was the Assembly Hall, but I do not understand why you would deny it was. IF YOU SPENT THE TIME YOU CLAIM AT AT SALT LAKE YOU KNEW EXACTLY WHERE THE PHOTO WAS MADE.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Can we have a quick refresher here? WHY is this photo important? Just asking, that's all.

Because Duane knew the man and did not want him to see him.
Whoever this man is - is the link to the past of Weber...whatever that is.

We went to the Visitors Center and he found his name on the roster and went down the hall.
He came back and said the man was just leaving. He quickly took me to the site this man had to pass to get to his car. He did NOT want the man to see him, but told me where he would becoming from and that he would have a briefcase - the man had to go this way to get to his car.

Duane left - I was never sure where he went to...but he disappeared quickly.

After the film was developed and I was putting the picks in the album he asked me where the negatives were. I told him in the safe as I always did (my family lost a lot of photo due to a fire so I was fire cautious.).

Then after we moved to Fl in 1988 I was redoing the albums and again Duane asked about the prints. I searched 50 yrs of negatives. The ONLY missing are the negatives of the pictures I made of this man. He could NOT take the ones out of the album without arousing my curiosity.

Whoever this man is - he is connected to Duane's past and the pictures he needed for a purpose - I want to know what Duane's history with this man was and who he was.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[MeyerLouie 5]

Quote

I think the answer to Tina ... is in the rest of her life.

I have been an instructor in a few adventure sports and a participant in many more. The USAF gave me 8 years of putting highly trained MOSTLY college boys in life threatening situations ( with the caveat that I could not break them beyond repair) while never forgetting I was there to impart my knowledge of staying alive no matter where and under what situations they might find themselves in.

People respond to stress and the influx of adrenaline in far different ways.

Some of us LIVE for that... others.... end up in a convent.

I think she did a whole lot of praying on that plane that night. I think Dean Martin could have been the hijacker and she would not have been able to describe him. Her focus was not on him... it was on just how close she, as a young woman, could very well end up not growing one day older.

__________________________________________________

You're so melodramatic Amazon. Seems to me Tina had her wits about her pretty much the whole time. She followed every one of DBC's instructions -- to the letter. The crew credited her with saving their lives. She talked to Cooper, lit his cigarettes, even joked around with him. When the money came, she asked, "Can I have some? Just kidding." When Cooper handed her a bundle of money she said, "No thanks, I'm not allowed to take tips." That hardly sounds like someone paralyzed by her fear.

Tina was incapacitated by the sheer terror and peril of the moment? No way, that's ridiculous. The evidence and testimony do not support that conclusion. And I would also go out on a limb and say her testimony and descriptions afterwards were probably pretty reliable. Airline crews are trained to deal with emergency situations in flight -- that's their job. I would trust her assessment of the ordeal.

This is not to say that she didn't suffer from PTSD later on. PTSD can be a delayed reaction -- weeks, even months after the fact. This is quite possible in Tina's case, and it's probably what happened.

But she was on her game those 5 hours on 11/24/71 with DBC -- I have no doubts about that.

MeyerLouie

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

well, it's bad enough we have different descriptions from eyewitnesses, we also have people matching photo's to the sketches, some have an exact match? I don't think the odds are that good on a exact match from sketch to photo.

let's take a look at the suspects all together?

Why did you use the one picture I do not know the source of and it has all kinds of reflection on.

Try ONE of these if you really want to be objective.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[MeyerLouie 5]

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Quote

Quote

Also, please remember that the Chief Psychologist for the FAA in Washington, DC had passed the word to the flight crew that Cooper would probably take a hostage with him and blow up the airliner when he jumped.

What an idiot. Like a PhD in psychology qualifies him to predict this. I wonder if he predicted the exit point and deployment altitude too.

Looks like he was wrong on all fronts. Amazon would call him a "college boy". I'd be less kind.

377

I have to agree. Most shrinks will tell you they need to see someone in person, or at least a case record. Also, the limited amount of communications between the hijacker and Everyone Else doesn't reveal many clues to his personality.

Example: The shrink hears that the hijacker has killed two of the hostages, shoved them out onto the tarmac, and now the plane is in the air again. Crew says he's going crazy in the back of the plane, shouting, making threats. Then you might be able to make a reasonable prediction like that.

_________________________________________________
There you go again Blevins -- sure about what you just said?? MeyerLouie

[georger 244]

LOL the truth is you don't have an answer.

[MeyerLouie 5]

Quote

Quote

agreed, but IMO the PTSD had not set in on Tina right after the left the plane and spoke with the FBI, and whether she is suffering from it or not, nobody knows for sure.

my observation is it's possible that Tina's perception is much different from Flo's, you don't need a traumatic event in order to have different conclusions to what someone has seen. you would think since Tina spent more time with him that she should have a good description, yet years later Flo says none of the sketches really looked like Cooper, which one is suffering a traumatic event, one or both? or did they both have a bad perception of describing Cooper? can we blame it on stress, or just bad judgement?

I agree that this has probably damaged Tina over the years, but I'm not sold has to the amount of damage right after the crime, if that makes sense?

Many people right after a life threatening event are essentially babbling idiots.

__________________________________________________

Why the melodrama? C'mon -- Tina was not a babbling idiot right after the event. MeyerLouie

• Quote

[georger 244]

Quote

Can we have a quick refresher here? WHY is this photo important? Just asking, that's all.

WE dont need a refresher - only you do.

READ THE THREAD.