DB Cooper

[georger 256]

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IN ADDITION>>> We went over this before briefly
but never resolved it. Notice the red X's (3 maybe 4)
off to the left hand side of the penciled flight path in
an arc. If the flightpath went through these X's and
he bailed at or just near the Columbia at Vancouver,
now he is bailing at a more oblique angle to the
Columbia - with forward throw and drift he is now
below Tina Bar somewhere around Vancouver Island.

Im posting the Vancouver section again -

Yeah, like I said, they line up with what I believe are the 2018-2020 marks on the flight path...just shifted over W by 3 miles or so?
(edit) The 4th seems to align with a 2021 tick that I didn't mark, but seems to be there on the flight path.

When I first saw them, I was thinking predicted LZ. If they suspected Cooper jumped around there, with an East wind, that would make sense. Maybe they just guessed he might have jumped around Portland.?

Or maybe it was additional radar data that was in error by some amount.

This is the first time I'm thinking it's related to in-sync tics on the actual flight path.

Yes it would be odd if the real flight path actually went thru the big ticks. But in my processed jpgs, you can see small tics under the real flight path.

So I dunno. A mystery. A conspiracy. Who knows?

REPLY> who made the tics? a committee?

Im to bed -

[snowmman 3]

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[
REPLY> I just came back to post about the exact same thing. Posted then read below and here yours is. ESP.
..
more tic marks attached

oh your first pic with the threshold control is just excellent...you can really see the small tics under the flight path. I gotta learn how to do that.

If you do this on the full high resolution flight path, we can get more accurate radar ticks for up around 2008-2009-2010 also? (I noted that I think the 2009 placement is dubious)

I think we can get Sluggo's tics a little more accurate.
Could even then imagine running a curve fitting excel thing on them, rather than doing straight line from point to point. Might be a better approximation?
rather than assuming radar "happened" to catch the centerpoint of every turn?

[georger 256]

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[
REPLY> I just came back to post about the exact same thing. Posted then read below and here yours is. ESP.
..
more tic marks attached

oh your first pic with the threshold control is just excellent...you can really see the small tics under the flight path. I gotta learn how to do that.

If you do this on the full high resolution flight path, we can get more accurate radar ticks for up around 2008-2009-2010 also? (I noted that I think the 2009 placement is dubious)

I think we can get Sluggo's tics a little more accurate.
Could even then imagine running a curve fitting excel thing on them, rather than doing straight line from point to point. Might be a better approximation?
rather than assuming radar "happened" to catch the centerpoint of every turn?

REPLY> I can do that but try this first. These are
quasi 3d images based on pixel density. Everything
is seen in relief so underlying tic marks and lines
have good contrast.

You will have to join images A & B (A = top) to get the
full image. I had to break these down into two to get
under the loading limit here -

I am going to try one more thing later today. I going
to try summing pixel densities on 1-pixel vertical columns. That is more than enough resolution to
resolve anything on this map. If I can do this I will
even be able to produce a pixel density graph of the
map which will bring all layers right to the surface for
visual inspection.

later -

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Looks like you have some issues that you didn't account for.

1. Condition of money
2. Location of money (yes, I know you're working on this)
3. Strata of sand indicating timeline of deposit

Those are three keys that must all be addressed and you're glossing over the third one completely.

Look at these photos again. I posted them months ago. You're coming up with theories on dredge layers and such, why don't you just look with your own two eyes?

The layer he's pointing to was well established and was not disturbed. You tell me how many inches up from the layer the money was found....

this significantly reduces the window for deposit. You're really talking about late 1979 here, and anything else simply does not add up.

And if it doesn't add up, there's no possible way you can seriously conclude "air" as possible transport to the find location because air implies the 1971 flight, and if you go there you have even more issues than strata in the sand.

It's a dead end to think air was the means.

[georger 256]

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Looks like you have some issues that you didn't account for.

1. Condition of money
2. Location of money (yes, I know you're working on this)
3. Strata of sand indicating timeline of deposit

Those are three keys that must all be addressed and you're glossing over the third one completely.

Look at these photos again. I posted them months ago. You're coming up with theories on dredge layers and such, why don't you just look with your own two eyes?

The layer he's pointing to was well established and was not disturbed. You tell me how many inches up from the layer the money was found....

this significantly reduces the window for deposit. You're really talking about late 1979 here, and anything else simply does not add up.

And if it doesn't add up, there's no possible way you can seriously conclude "air" as possible transport to the find location because air implies the 1971 flight, and if you go there you have even more issues than strata in the sand.

It's a dead end to think air was the means.

REPLY> Nobody is suggesting Cooper landed at Tina Bar, or the money either. The flight path doesn't
support that. No one has ever suggested that.

Is Palmer's right hand at the point where the money
was? Or is Palmer simply showing the expanse (depth)
of the whole dredge layer? I'm no mind reader! What
is Palmer demonstrating int his photo? I wasn't there.

I am looking with my own two eyes and I do not see -
(a) the strata soil samples analysis report, by depth!
(b) any soil samples.
(c) any inventory.
(d) any report at all!

If you can read a-d out of that photo I sure as hell would like to hear/see it. Evidently, you were there?

You tell me the depositon and erosion history of that
spot based on that single photo. I am ready to listen.

George -

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

Every wonder what Tena bar looked like in 1970… 1974… or even 1979?

Wonder no more!

Thanks to Ckret, I have the attached Aerial Photo Maps.

High Resolution versions are on my web site at:

Tena Bar Area on August 9th 1970

Tena Bar Area on September 6th 1974

Tena Bar Area on September 29th 1979 Note: South is “Up” on this map.


Enjoy (and discuss).

Thanks again to Ckret for supplying the images.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[georger 256]

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Looks like you have some issues that you didn't account for.

1. Condition of money
2. Location of money (yes, I know you're working on this)
3. Strata of sand indicating timeline of deposit

Those are three keys that must all be addressed and you're glossing over the third one completely.

Look at these photos again. I posted them months ago. You're coming up with theories on dredge layers and such, why don't you just look with your own two eyes?

The layer he's pointing to was well established and was not disturbed. You tell me how many inches up from the layer the money was found....

this significantly reduces the window for deposit. You're really talking about late 1979 here, and anything else simply does not add up.

And if it doesn't add up, there's no possible way you can seriously conclude "air" as possible transport to the find location because air implies the 1971 flight, and if you go there you have even more issues than strata in the sand.

It's a dead end to think air was the means.

REPLY> I gather you know all about it - probably have Palmer's work.

Thanks for letting us know. You just saved me and
people Ive been talking to a ton of time, and expense.

Good luck,

[snowmman 3]

I think we're doing a lot of guessing on the layers (single or multiple) created by the output of a hydraulic dredge, with input from the Columbia channel.

I would think there would be two clear sediment deposits, unless this gets all mixed up on output from the dredge...
1) The sand layer from erosion in the channel
2) The clay layer from longer term buildup, underneath 1)

The cutterhead on a hydraulic dredge is used to deal with 2). It can handle rock too, but doubt they encountered rock.


We also don't know if a bulldozer was used to spread spoils on Tena Bar, or if the output of a pipeline dredge went there directly. We also don't know if the spoils were hoppered by a barge first and spread, or sent there solely thru a pipeline.

If there was 30" of sand that arrived naturally after the clay layer, then the slope of tena bar would have been even shallower after 1974?

That's hard to believe since it's so shallow that it would mean the water would have covered it? The pictures Ckret just provided, seem relatively constant in exposed beach from 70-79, although it would vary a lot with tide/runoff etc.

The '79 photo seems to show Caterpillar Slough almost totally choked off, but it could be low water.

I think we know very little about the dredging at Tena Bar.

Those two photos Safe points to don't tell us much?
Tells us there's a clay layer and a sand layer I suppose?

I'm also not sure how we know there was no clay layer on the beach before the dredging? Were the beach layers sand - clay - sand? is a lower level of sand the thing that tells us the clay is from the dredging?

I'm going to try to research sediment layers created by dredge spoils.

[skyjack71 0]

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Do you understand that all of these gentlemen working
on this problem take this very seriously? These people
have credbility which does not proof.

I take that statement to question my credibility. I am who I say I am, but WHO is Snowmman - he seems to be a Jack of ALL Trades and does not identify himself even in a private email. I also do not know who you are or exactly what your profession is.

It does seem that with Sluggo being a pilot - that the two of you - are saying he is not credible either.
Snowmman has admitted that he is not a pilot. How can you and anyone who is not a pilot be more creditable than Sluggo or other pilots?

Yes, I am a simple everyday kind of person without the knowledge or words to stand up against a lot of technical talk, but I will stand up against anyone who twists the facts to explain the money in the Columbia.

The FBI has to love you and Snowmman and anyone else who will support their means to bring this case to a close, The only way to do that as far as they are concerned is to put Cooper in the Columbia. Anything else such as the money getting into the Columbia by human hands looks bad for them.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Every wonder what Tena bar looked like in 1970… 1974… or even 1979?

I noted that the last 2 pics show the dates being in Sept. but, no date on the first pic. Do you have access to the date of the 1970 pic.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Lastly, for me your profiles make a hydrological explanation more viable. In a backward sense however, these profiles also place demands on the flight path and Cooper's bail scenario, it order to make Tina Bar and its nature a more active option in where money would go.

See what I mean - to do that you HAVE to change the flight pattern and bail-out time to put Cooper and the Money in the Columbia. Remember that NO tributary feeds this outside of the Washougal.

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Nobody questions the placard at Toutle. Why should
the money at T_Bar be questioned. The flight path connects them both, somehow.

As for the place card - ask any jumper here - they will tell you that we do not know when it was dislodged and that it would sail in the wind for MILES. It did not have the weight of human with a chute and 20 lbs of money.

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The fact that Duane tossed something into the river.
you say, does not mean it goes to Tina Bar!

I say, You say - Note that I have claimed over the yrs that he dug something up or tried to find something at a Location across from the Portland Airport. The cabin that was there in 1971 and not there in 1979 - if he did put some of the money in a container or more than one container - the excavation of that property and building of homes could have dislodged the container and have put the "found" money in the Columbia.

When we left that area we went to an industrial - there was a large kind of tank there and dock on the river for loading use. After the industial area, we went to the hotel W. of the bridge to Portland - he threw a paper sack into the Columbia.

I do NOT think the sack is what he was after at the Cabin area or an area just above that (the one I did not get to see). I was told that my view would have been about the same.

I wish I could remember more details about the business, but I did not see that Sack until we were on our way to the hotel. He could have put it in the car at either of the 2 stops before the brige stop but it was not there before or I would have noticed it.

I do not know what was in that sack - but he was NOT one to litter, so there had to be a REASON to throw it into the Columbia. My thinking is that when he did recoup part of the money he decided "It's Worthless" the very words he used when I read the News Headlines in 1980 out loud. He types his resignation the next day???? I do not know when he mailed the resignation letter.

I am not dumb enough to think that I can throw a sack in the Columbia and predict where it will come to shore - conditions change and I have stated this very clearly.
I am just hoping that it will be close if it is ever found - but maybe there will conditions causing it to show up much further down the river or never show-up.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

The bill decomposition has 4 main effects, not evenly distributed across all bills
1) The purple front/faded back ink effect
2) The black bills
3) The edge decomposition (fragile flaking)
4) The rounding of the bills (break off of fragile flakes?)
5) damage due to separation of wet bundle into singles after find.

The 1-4 effects could have happened simultaneously, or not , due to chemical/wind/water/sun action. Some of the rounding/edge breakoff could have occurred due to Ingram rinsing handling.

The purple staining might have happened over the years, and not been present initially.

From the photos of the bundles, we can be sure edge flaking, rounding, and some "more discolored than others" bills were present 2/12/80

I've attached another black bill photo from CBS news video snap. (modern, not 2/12/80)

With the discovery of the new "2nd folder" the the FBI apparently has, and it's black bills, .the number of black bills increases, as well as total bills (plus new PCGS "assembly" of bill fragments")

I was thinking "black bills" were bundle bottoms. It's possible that 4 bundles (or more) were found at Tena Bar? We have more than 3 black bills at the FBI, right?

The Corbis photo doesn't immediately give an obvious idea of how those 12 bundles can be re-aligned into 3 bundles of consistent edge decomposition.

If there are more than 3 bundles found, it calls into question the reliability of the rubber band description, I think.

The middle black bill in the attached photo seems to be a face up bill. If so, this may say that the "blackness" is on both sides of bottom bills? Or maybe they are top bills that got darker over time?

I don't think they are top bills, since the Corbis photo shows some likely tops that have increased edge decomposition.

It's possible though, that the black bills were not initially so black. We don't see any black bills in the Corbis 2/12/80 shot, but then again we don't see any bundle bottoms. The one "back" bill is an obvious split with the adjacent bundle part.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

August 9th 1970.

The dates are in the file names.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

1) These are high resolution. You can zoom in a lot.
Did everyone see the circle on the 8-9-70 photo? Assuming it's a circle at the money find location? If so, it's farther N then we assumed? It's a little past the Fazio's house???

2) Circle is on the 9-6-74 picture also. Zoom in a lot.
Same place.

3) same place in the 9-29-79 picture. The "bump" of
sand before it is gone at this time. There is no bump in the '70 picture either. Makes me thinking dredging spoil plume. Looks like the output went to two places on the WA side. There are two "bumps".

4) Was that bump that disappeared, the location of the dredging spoil plume? Think of the output of a pipeline dredge. Did it erode away from '74 to '79?

5) I was comparing the 1970 and 1974 photo, to see the effect of the dredging.

The 1974 photo is from 9-6-74

Tosaw says the WA side dredging was done 10-74 on the Fazio side. The Reeder court case mentions 8-74 on the OR side.

remember my photos of the pipes on pipeline dredges? Is that a pipeline dredge N of Tena Bar on the OR side of the Columbia?

It's the right time period. dredging probably happened between summer and fall of 74?

[snowmman 3]

N of Tena Bar, on OR side.
zoomed in crop shows it, attached.

If you analyzed the photos I provided of pipeline dredges in operation, especially up by the Nuke plant after Mt. Helen's eruption, you'd recognize the output pipe and barges supporting it, going to shore...

(edit) added the two photos I posted before, for comparison

[snowmman 3]

I zoomed, rotated, aligned as best I could quickly, and created a montage of the 3 new bw photos from ckret, highlighting the tena bar area.

You can see the circles that "somebody" (not me) drew.
Assuming they are the money find location.

You can also see what I think are the dredge spoil plumes in the middle photo.

I put the dates on each.

If we agree on what the circles mean, someone should pop open GE and find a new lat/long for us to use as the money find location?

I didn't think it was that far up past the Fazios..but who knows!

We're gonna need a montage!
http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=gog&media=WAVS&type=Movies&movie=Team_America_World_Police"e=montagesong.txt&file=montagesong.wav

[snowmman 3]

Now I'm starting to feel the intimidation Jo talks about..

[skyjack71 0]

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These are high resolution. You can zoom in a lot.
Did everyone see the circle on the 8-9-70 photo? Assuming it's a circle at the money find location? If so, it's farther N then we assumed? It's a little past the Fazio's house???

Snowmman - the Fazio's house was West of the beach area the money was found in. This I know for a FACT. I was there. What is in front of the beach is the parking area and gate.

If I have to I can get a statement regarding this, but it will be verbal and on the phone. No one CAN move the money find or the Fazio home.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

I don't think they circles are on Tena's Bar at least not where the find was. You could see the Fazio house - in fact we parked just East of the house and the Gate is east of the House. The location we were taken to was right in front of the Car area and East of the House. I don't think the Fazio's and Himmelsbach changed the location of the find for the film crew.

Frankly I can't see the houses except on the 1979 pic - but it was 2001 when I was there. So maybe the house was built after 1979. Does anyone know the answer to this?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[quade 4]

It should be noted that the circle drawn in the 79 photo is in a significantly different place than the previous ones. It's quite a bit more to the top of the page and for reference I would direct you to the nearby buildings and agriculture.

Without knowing the exact scale, I'd guess the circles differ by perhaps a hundred feet or more.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

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It should be noted that the circle drawn in the 79 photo is in a significantly different place than the previous ones. It's quite a bit more to the top of the page and for reference I would direct you to the nearby buildings and agriculture.

Without knowing the exact scale, I'd guess the circles differ by perhaps a hundred feet or more.

hey quade, good to hear from you. I was actually missing you :)

The original jpgs we got were 5.3"x5.9", 5.4"x5.9", 7.9"x7.8", ..assuming they were 1 to 1 with the originals, the FBI probably had a hard time drawing the circles in because they didn't have all this zoom/computer stuff at the time? So inconsistent accuracy maybe just from that?

I did a quick snap out of Google Earth for modern image, and put it in the montage too. (attached)

Yeah, there's some good reference points in the photos. There's that little diagonal path that comes from the NE. It seems to be gone in recent GE.
There's a vertical road in the middle of that little grassy area that appeared in 1979 (is still there in GE). The grassy field seems to have been squared off.

There's a more recent building in GE also, by that field.

Man, b/w photos, sand...You know we should be looking for WMDs!

Hey the CENNP logo on the photos, I think refers to the Army Corps of Engineers, North Pacific Division, Portland District.

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo likes the "walkie-talkie man" in the sequence of passengers in the Cronkite video.

Thought it would be interesting to put a collage together with every individual passenger that's visible. There are 13 +2. The last 2 don't have good shots. So it's less than half of the passengers.

Number 11 is interesting: "cowboy man"
Number 6 is "hat man"
Number 10 is "bolo guy"
Number 13 is "columbo"
I wonder if 8 is William Mitchell?

If you go thru the ties (3, 4, 6, 12, 13) they are all wide-ish ties.

I think the idea that everyone on the flight looked like Cooper is a bit of a myth?

1,6,7?,13 had raincoat on
6 and 11 had hats
5 had a sheep? lined jacket.
3,4,9?,10 had no raincoat on. 8 has coat on shoulder?
woman 2 had no coat

[georger 256]

Attached are the + pixels I find which may be associated with tic marks. I attached the fit file for SafecrackingPLF. Sluggo's chart uses more tic marks.
These are the tic marks my analysis feels comfortable
claiming.

You do realise this map is NOT a radar plot map at all,
but some map somebody put tic marks on because
they felt they had positional information. The error
inherent in that far excedes any errors of other kinds discussed.





...

[n467us 0]

I think #4 is Duane L. Weber...

[snowmman 3]

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I think #4 is Duane L. Weber...

funny! I thought the same thing!