DB Cooper

[quade 4]

Just a reminder, keep to the discussion and refrain from calling each other names.

Feel free to disagree with each other's data, HOWEVER personal attacks on each other will get you a time out or worse.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo,
you kinda of derided georger's mention of a possible "quickee map". I'd like to explore that.

Do you think any search area was defined on a map for use the day after the jump? I mean there was some searching started immediately. They didn't focus in with the '72 map until later.

What map was used, or how was the search zone delineated? Do you think it was oral communications? Do you think maybe if there was a map, it was discarded over time? Or ckret hasn't revealed it? or ??

I'm just wondering why you dismissed georger's mention. He was obviously referring to my posts about what Tosaw said based on his interviews with Soderlind.

Are you saying you don't believe that information was accurate? That's fine, it's just not clear what you were trying to say, or refute.

Oh, and if you have a theory about where Cooper jumped and how the money got to Tena Bar, it might be a good new thing to explore. Can you share it?

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

To: quade, georger, and snowmman
From: Sluggo_Monster
Subject: I do not wish to be insulting

As I mentioned in my post to georger, there is something about my personality that doesn’t transition well to internet forum post.

I made every attempt to show that I was being positive with statements such as:

“You may not mean to be, and if I was talking with you (on the phone or in person) you might not seem insulting at all. That is one of the drawbacks of communications by posting on an internet forum.”

“I think you have added a lot to the investigation, you have some insights that I value (as I’m sure others value them as well) and two, I have the intellectual honesty to allow for differing opinions. Also, I sincerely hope I am just reading your post incorrectly.”

And

“As I have said before, I value your opinions and appreciate the energy and resources you have put into these discussions.”

Evidently, once again, there is something about my style (personality) that loses itself in translation.

To honor quade’s wishes, I will just drop the subject and not respond to georger’s last post. It is not that it doesn’t deserve a response (because I don’t want him to think ill of me), but I just don’t want to be responsible for causing the best thread going on D B Cooper to be shut down because I can’t express myself well enough to be understood.

As far as snowmman’s post:

Quote

Sluggo,
you kinda of derided georger's mention of a possible "quickee map". I'd like to explore that.

Do you think any search area was defined on a map for use the day after the jump? I mean there was some searching started immediately. They didn't focus in with the '72 map until later.

What map was used, or how was the search zone delineated? Do you think it was oral communications? Do you think maybe if there was a map, it was discarded over time? Or ckret hasn't revealed it? or ??

I'm just wondering why you dismissed georger's mention. He was obviously referring to my posts about what Tosaw said based on his interviews with Soderlind.

Are you saying you don't believe that information was accurate? That's fine, it's just not clear what you were trying to say, or refute.

Oh, and if you have a theory about where Cooper jumped and how the money got to Tena Bar, it might be a good new thing to explore. Can you share it?

I want to say this up front. I have no “special” information about the D B Cooper (NORJAK) investigation. I see the same articles everyone else sees. I watch the same videos everyone else watches. However, I do not read the same books everyone else reads. I think books (for profit) do not necessarily contain factual information. It is difficult to make a determination between the author’s speculation and factual accounts. That is not to say that everything in a book is speculation. It is just to say, that I can’t distinguish between fact and speculation.

So, when presented with something like “a quickie map,” my response is always going to be “What quickie map?” It is not a value judgment, it is an honest lack of familiarity.

What I know about the first few days after the skyjacking wouldn’t fill a thimble. That’s it! That’s the truth! I’m not being coy. I’m not making derisive statements. And I’m not consciously insulting anyone.

As for what I am trying to refute. I do not like for people (anyone) to attributed statements to me, that I did not make. Pure and simple. And I think anyone should be able to understand that I am running a web site that I would very much like to have the highest credibility of any site centered on NORJAK. When someone attributes a statement to me which is untrue, they are jeopardizing my credibility. If I have to cease participating on internet forums to preserve my credibility, that’s what I will do. It’s not what I want to do, but it’s what I may have to do.

As far as my theories are concerned, I have a few. Most of you know that I think Cooper knew he was on V-23 and knew where he was when they made the turn at the BTG VORTAC. That isn’t exactly news. As far as money transport, I defer to SafecrackingPLF, Ckret and anyone else who has actually done work to establish or refute any of the theories. You may have noticed that I don’t express many opinions about any of the theories expressed on this (or any) board. I am in the process of determining what I want my role to be. And it is looking less like an “investigator” and more like a “chronicler of data.”

And while I’m on a role here… I have no “special relationship” with Ckret. I beg him for scraps from the FBI’s table and he sometimes favors me with a few. I place them on my web site and notify the major boards that they are there. It is a purely symbiotic relationship. I get some goodies to publish, and he doesn’t have to send stuff out in twenty dozen e-mails. I am very thankful that Ckret was given the NORJAK case. His attitude about releasing information to the public meets my needs very nicely. I am not his “handmaiden.” I very seldom get information or explanations about the data he provides. Ckret has his own challenges, and he can represent himself very well (and usually does). If you are of the belief that Ckret (or the FBI as an entity) are holding back information, you may be right. Ask Ckret about it, not me. And if you are not getting what you want or need, file an FOIA Request.

So, that’s it.

No insults, no derisive remarks, just plain, honest Sluggo (Trying to get by being quite and shy in a world full of push and shove.)

Have a good night,

Sluggo_Monster (wondering WTF)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[skyjack71 0]

Hey, guys lets talk about my experiment - regarding a drop into the Columbia. Anyone have any ideas on this?

We cannot read inflections in a forum like we can on the phone or inperson. We should have fun with this as we go.

Put yourselves in my position for a week - everyone thinks I am crazy or making all of this up, but I know I am sane and that I am telling the truth.

Georger, you yourself - made a statement in a recent post I could have taken serious offense too - but, until someone proves Duane WAS NOT Cooper I just roll along and I take the punches.

I know who Cooper was and maybe someday the world will know. If the forces will be that will be - No one will ever know who Cooper was just as we will never know who killed Dorothy Killgallen - but the forces that be say she committed suicide.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

Quote

Sluggo,
you kinda of derided georger's mention of a possible "quickee map". I'd like to explore that.

Do you think any search area was defined on a map for use the day after the jump? I mean there was some searching started immediately. They didn't focus in with the '72 map until later.

What map was used, or how was the search zone delineated? Do you think it was oral communications? Do you think maybe if there was a map, it was discarded over time? Or ckret hasn't revealed it? or ??

I'm just wondering why you dismissed georger's mention. He was obviously referring to my posts about what Tosaw said based on his interviews with Soderlind.

REPLY: Precisely. That is 1/3 of where I was coming from. The second third comes from other sources I feel are credible because we are not the first or only people wondering about the history of the search for Cooper and any 'maps' that are relevant.

The third part arises from the sudden realisation
from Sluggo's post suggesting that Ckret himself might made the crosses on the flight map.

Something like that had never entered my mind and if that were remotely true, then obviously we don't know ANYTHING about the history of these maps we have been discussing for months, and they may even be brand new as of 2007?

The very suggestion is astounding. That is the
reaction of everyone I know in this matter, today.
I am not just speaking for myself here tonight.

Th very idea that we have been labouring over
maps which we don't even know the true history of -
potentially changes the whole equation of this
process.

I would think, just my opinion, that anyone trying
to delineate the History of the NORJAK case would
spend some time explaining the history of the two
maps cited most in this case.

The history of these maps, how they came into being, might have some bearing on the meaning
of those maps?

Snowmman understood what I meant by "quickie-map". Sluggo used the term "orphan tic mark".
I didnt hear any orphans here object! Things are said simply to further discussion. And if Tosaw's
description of how the NWA map came into being is correct then it was in a real sense a 'quick map' drawn on the spot... then probably revised later into a more formal version, maybe? Im only putting
thoughts into words, just as I tried to do on Sunday.

My assertion on Sunday that the pilots kept notes
and made marks on maps comes from interviews
I have heard and articles read where Scott and Rataczak mention keeping notes and I am sure
oneof them said "made marks on a map".

I mean, there was a long discussion in the transcripts about them having the right maps,
or sendng the proper maps out to them if needed,
so obviously they had physical maps with them.

And Lastly:, when I said on Sunday:

" I simply refer you to the note at the top of the map which says: "1st PLOT" and we know as you have said that was from the pilot's own map or notes."

I actually thought that you had said this or confirmed this earlier, but I may be mistaken.
You now say the (commercial) pilots didnt make notes at all, on a map or otherwise. I can find no record of you having said the pilots kept notes, so
I may have errored in this.

And the funniest part of all for me, is, I happen to
have a visual issue since childhood. I sometimes invert or reverse or even supply letters, and look right instead of left to start reading a word or line
(as English requires).

Before I wrote my statement you reacted to, I went back to your tic mark map and tried to read your line next to 1st PLOT and I read " Location of aircraft ........... according to P(I)LOT. I saw pilot,
not plot. With this I wrote what I wrote. An innocent mistaken and a by product of - dyslexia.

You see I did again above. mistaken. I mean mistake.

I have many thoughts at this point I need to sort out. Maybe later -

Georger

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Hey, we can't even agree on whether Cooper said 15 degree flaps. Ckret said no, other info says he did after a 2nd question.

I posted a lot of stuff about the jump/extortions that followed, because I think a jump hijack was inevitable given the sheer number of hijacks happening at the time, and Cooper was nothing special...therefore he'd be more alike the ones that followed, than different.

But I got no responses to all that info...like there was no way it could apply.

I think this idea of Cooper being an aviation engineer is bogus and has no data backing it. The idea that he is local to WA is just a random guess..no good data there either.

Any random idea about Cooper is reasonable.

Confessions are devalued, since we have at least two now, both for apparently no good reason.

I know 377 supplied prototype night vision stuff to Cooper, which is the whole reason he's on the thread. I got confused cause I thought that stuff didn't show up in Vietnam until '71-73 but then I found the attached..date shows prototypes obviously available in '70

I had thought the Hughes "Quiet One" helicopters were involved (the 500P's) but have ruled them out. Black helicopter fans, stand down!

And drugs, who knows? well the High Incident guys in North Hollywood used phenobarbital, and what I hadn't realized is that they had already amassed $1.5M from 2 prior robberies? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_hollywood_shootout and it also makes perfect sense to work in a reference, in this mother of all threads.

I think the main thing I've learned about this Cooper thing, is that it was petty crime. There was nothing special about Cooper. So he jumped. No big deal. It was inevitable that someone would, in the context of the times, and the rate of hijack crimes.

The best we could do is to drop this assumption of high drama around Cooper. He was just Joe Blow.

In terms of theories, I can't think of any that make sense now other than him landing in the Columbia near PDX. I really want to hear other theories, other than Jo's. I was off base on all the plant theory nonsense.

I got spooked at the DNA advances from the Ivins case. I'm burying my wood chipper. I'm told the FBI never digs below 7' because of OSHA concerns w/trench cave-ins. Do we have any good data on that?

(edit) Jo: Kurt wasn't suicide either:
http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/crime_scene.shtml

[georger 247]

I have come to believe about you, is that (for some reason), you want Cooper’s body to have fallen in the Columbia. That’s okay by me. I’ll bet about 85% of us have a pet theory that we would love to see proven. (I know I have one.) Would you like to share that with us (or refute what I have come to believe)?

REPLY> Sure, I will comment on this. I already
have many times. I follow the evidence. That is
my theory. My theory is my method. I look for
relationships and where I find none then I try to
gather facts, observe, listen ... to develop a lead
or a connection.

That I push in a particular direction means I am
testing connections, nothing more.

Like Safe I believe the Washougal washdown is
too problematic. I believe any washdown theory
must pass some fairly stringent requirements,
and that includes even a Columbia wash theory.

Short of Cooper landing near Tina Bar (which seems
impossible given the flight path) I think the money
appearing at Tina Bar presents a lot of serious
problems. If Tina Bar had been where the PI said
it was erroneously, then that would connect.

The only reason I have leaned toward a wet drop
goes back to Snowmman in another forum long ago when Snow talked about no-pull and augering in.
That clicked with me because it would eradicate
Cooper from the face of the Earth in one little
gulp, as it were. But, unless it was a very unlucky day for Cooper I dont find any place along the
Columbia where that culd easily happen unless maybe Vancouver Lake? But, the FP doesnt accomodate that.

Moreover, in any of these scenarios involving a wet drop and the Great Gulp, you have to account for the condution of the money sitting at the bottom of a mud bog, then somehow getting to Tina Bar and
still have enough of it left to be found in good condition. That to me presents a lot of problems.

So as you see, I am not as simple minded about this as you evidently imagined I was.

I would have loved to have heard Safecracking's
version. But he is not here. Maybe he will tell you
and it will serve the basis for your cracking this case.

So, the best overall theory I have heard is yours. He dropped near Orchards. It fits the timeline &
places less stress on the timeline with one possible exception: does it accomodate Rataczack's
statement? Im not sure it does especially in clouds at 10k feet.

Other than that I like the Orchards theory - your theory. And I give you full credit for coming up
with it. I didnt think of it, but quite frankly I was
relying on you doing the FP work. I think we all
were relying on you ... and quite satisfied.

But if he landfs at Orchards how does the $doe$
get to Tina Bar. A rail line does connect the two
areas. Washdown? No. I dont see washdown there.

For Cooper to land at Orchards with money appearing at Tina Bar, Cooper almost has to survive
or, there is some third event or circumstance none of us has thought of yet. I am sure many people
have thought about this and nothing seems obvious.

And how does DB land near Orchards and nothing
of him is ever found? Unless ... he flew out at Scholl
airport and for the hell of it dropped money near
Tina Bar which later appears? That is not impossible.
He might have had help! He had already displayed a certain cavalier attitude about this money when he
was with Tina Mucklow, so what's a few thousand dropped for the peassants to find and ponder over
when he knows he's soon to be faraway gone. I
could buy into a scenario like that.

Jo will now pipe up and say "see! I told you so. That
was Duane".

I remarked long ago this case wasn't easy. Our
frustrations have shown many times. I dont think
it has a damned thing to do with your personality.
I think its pure frustration.

The dots havent connected because something
isn't showing the dots. There is a reason why
the dots arent connecting and that reason is some
missing piece of the story, something that didnt
easily reveal itself over the years, for some reason.

I mean maybe there is some piece of evidence
sitting somewhere that points to the missing link
in this case. I don't know. You don't know. Apprarently nobody knows.

Is there some big piece of quick sand near Orchards he could have dropped into?

Or he did fall into Merwin Lake and somebody found
his money and then finally in 1979 they take some
down and drop it a Tina Bar expecting it to be found
quickly, to take the heat off themselves? Was the
heat being pout on somebody near Merwin Lake
at the time in this case?

So as you may finally see, I am not wedded to a
wet drop at the Columbia at all. The Columbia is
just one option and far from automatic. The Columbia is a very small target in any event! I
am well aware of that and always have been aware
of that.

Whatever it is, it's probably something wickedly simple that has separated everyone from solving
this case.

Obviously, we have a Bermuda Triangle in this area
of Washington. Oh God! Did I say that? Calling all
newspapers! Phillip-morrrrrrrrrr-rayyyyyyyyyy-is!
Thats a private joke between me and my generation Sluggo. Pay it no mind.

Georger

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

georger,

Thank you. That was a very good and informative post.

A few comments:

Quote

So as you see, I am not as simple minded about this as you evidently imagined I was.

I believe I said:

Quote

I have come to believe about you, is that (for some reason), you want Cooper’s body to have fallen in the Columbia.

I did not say nor imply that you were simple minded. What I did say was:

Quote

“As I have said before, I value your opinions and appreciate the energy and resources you have put into these discussions.”

You said:

Quote

... maybe there is some piece of evidence sitting somewhere that points to the missing link in this case.

I like your analogy of a ‘missing link” or “evidence gap.” I have thought about this a lot in the last 9 months and I have discussed some hypothetical scenarios with some of those on this board. (Maybe I’ll share some of them with the whole board someday.) I very much agree with you, the solution is going to revolve around some very simple (but un-acknowledged) action.

And oh yeah…

You said:

Quote

Phillip-morrrrrrrrrr-rayyyyyyyyyy-is! Thats a private joke between me and my generation Sluggo. Pay it no mind.

Exactly what generation do you suppose I am from? I’m a prime Boomer (60 years young). I remember the little-person page yelling throughout the hotel.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

In a recent post I made this statement:

Quote

You may have noticed that I don’t express many opinions about any of the theories expressed on this (or any) board. I am in the process of determining what I want my role to be. And it is looking less like an “investigator” and more like a “chronicler of data.”

Most of you might say… So, what’s the point? When I started my web site and decided that the emphasis was going to be on separating the “facts” from the “myths,” I didn’t realize a couple of things. One, was how much time and energy it would take. And, two, was how the site’s position had to be my position. After I started the site, I felt like I needed to refrain from speculation, for fear that speculation would be confused with myth and I would be criticized for not honoring the commitment.

A recent post by georger, made me realize that I might be able to express my speculations on this board without it compromising my position on the site. Maybe I have been too sensitive about an issue that no one but me sees. So, I’m going to slowly wade into the waters of speculation and see where it takes me. Also, georger mentioned a “simple thing” that might have thrown the whole investigation off.

NOTE: The text below is pure speculation coming from the ass mouth of Sluggo_Monster. Do not confuse it with a position based on any evidence (published or unpublished).

This is detailed, so please bear with me.

I worked for a commercial nuclear plant in the Western United States (un-named) in 1991 and 1992. I was asked to develop some training for the Corporate Nuclear Engineers on their Emergency Airborne Release System (EARS). This was some software that enabled them to track a plume from the plant vent stack in the event they had to perform an emergency vent-to-atmosphere after a primary system break or leak. (Think TMI)

I had to first understand the system myself, so I buried myself in the requirements, regulations, and operations manuals. After that I was a “system expert.” In order to understand how these corporate engineers would interface with the system I took a trip to the Emergency Operations Center (EOC) to see what they had to do and what they would see.

When I got to the Offsite Dose Tracking Station in the EOC I saw a large map with the plant at the center and 16 pie-shaped slices (Zones). The problem was that all the zones were on the wrong side of the map. Every one of them had been rotated 180 degrees from what was described in the systems manual. I asked one of the emergency planners about it they said; “When we get a NNW wind the plume goes to zone 1 (in the 11 o’clock position on the map.) Well, to make a long story short, the person who made the map thought wind directions were expressed as “to the compass point” instead of “from the compass point.” The software was correct, but in drills and exercises, they were “painting” the plume 180 degrees from where it existed.

Now, this is a big organization, it has some really smart and dedicated people working for it. But the error was made at a low level, and everyone at a high level assumed it was right.

Remember the Martian probe where part of the software (from Vendor A) was using metric measurements and another part of the software (from Vendor B) was using English measurements. That type of mistake often occurs in BIG organizations or when multiple agencies are working on small pieces of the project.

Now, can you see where I’m going with this? What if someone responsible for determining the JZ for NORJAK, thought the wind was “blowing to” rather than “blowing from?” With all the involved LE agencies, Boeing, and NWA working on “pieces parts,” could an error have been made? Where would that put Cooper at the original (Lake Merwin) JZ or with the new (Orchards) JZ?

Think about it and get back to me. In the mean time, I’m gonna look at some maps.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

Good points Sluggo. What if someone assumed that the ATC radar transceiver was located right at the airport rather than on a mountain top? That could shift everything quite a few miles. Might be interesting to simulate that error and see what the plot looks like with the appropriate radar center location correction cranked in.

Glad to see you guys cooling down and continuing your vital productive collaboration.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

I like your analogy of a ‘missing link” or “evidence gap.” I have thought about this a lot in the last 9 months and I have discussed some hypothetical scenarios with some of those on this board. (Maybe I’ll share some of them with the whole board someday.) I very much agree with you, the solution is going to revolve around some very simple (but un-acknowledged) action.

REPLY> You know, his dress taken at face value might mean he didnt expect to have to travel
very far after parachuting, if he was successful in
his plan. Like parachuting as a means of escape
he had some other 'quick escape' planned if the
bail was successful. A scenario like that requires
a plan and a point of departure for the plan to
work. Scholl's airport does come to mind.

BTW, I had a friend of mine who is a superb graphics
man look at my layers from the yellow FBI map - he
looked at other untouched copies. It didnt take him
30 secs to say: "pencil hell, some of those marks are
ball point pen" and he pointed out many dots under
the wider pencil lines and several of the arrows off
to the right sides of the red cross marks (near top
section of the map) which he says are done in ball
point pen.

Inks are datable.

George

[georger 247]

Quote

All,

In a recent post I made this statement:

Quote

You may have noticed that I don’t express many opinions about any of the theories expressed on this (or any) board. I am in the process of determining what I want my role to be. And it is looking less like an “investigator” and more like a “chronicler of data.”

Most of you might say… So, what’s the point? When I started my web site and decided that the emphasis was going to be on separating the “facts” from the “myths,” I didn’t realize a couple of things. One, was how much time and energy it would take. And, two, was how the site’s position had to be my position. After I started the site, I felt like I needed to refrain from speculation, for fear that speculation would be confused with myth and I would be criticized for not honoring the commitment.

A recent post by georger, made me realize that I might be able to express my speculations on this board without it compromising my position on the site. Maybe I have been too sensitive about an issue that no one but me sees. So, I’m going to slowly wade into the waters of speculation and see where it takes me. Also, georger mentioned a “simple thing” that might have thrown the whole investigation off.

NOTE: The text below is pure speculation coming from the ass mouth of Sluggo_Monster. Do not confuse it with a position based on any evidence (published or unpublished).

This is detailed, so please bear with me.

I worked for a commercial nuclear plant in the Western United States (un-named) in 1991 and 1992. I was asked to develop some training for the Corporate Nuclear Engineers on their Emergency Airborne Release System (EARS). This was some software that enabled them to track a plume from the plant vent stack in the event they had to perform an emergency vent-to-atmosphere after a primary system break or leak. (Think TMI)

I had to first understand the system myself, so I buried myself in the requirements, regulations, and operations manuals. After that I was a “system expert.” In order to understand how these corporate engineers would interface with the system I took a trip to the Emergency Operations Center (EOC) to see what they had to do and what they would see.

When I got to the Offsite Dose Tracking Station in the EOC I saw a large map with the plant at the center and 16 pie-shaped slices (Zones). The problem was that all the zones were on the wrong side of the map. Every one of them had been rotated 180 degrees from what was described in the systems manual. I asked one of the emergency planners about it they said; “When we get a NNW wind the plume goes to zone 1 (in the 11 o’clock position on the map.) Well, to make a long story short, the person who made the map thought wind directions were expressed as “to the compass point” instead of “from the compass point.” The software was correct, but in drills and exercises, they were “painting” the plume 180 degrees from where it existed.

Now, this is a big organization, it has some really smart and dedicated people working for it. But the error was made at a low level, and everyone at a high level assumed it was right.

Remember the Martian probe where part of the software (from Vendor A) was using metric measurements and another part of the software (from Vendor B) was using English measurements. That type of mistake often occurs in BIG organizations or when multiple agencies are working on small pieces of the project.

Now, can you see where I’m going with this? What if someone responsible for determining the JZ for NORJAK, thought the wind was “blowing to” rather than “blowing from?” With all the involved LE agencies, Boeing, and NWA working on “pieces parts,” could an error have been made? Where would that put Cooper at the original (Lake Merwin) JZ or with the new (Orchards) JZ?

Think about it and get back to me. In the mean time, I’m gonna look at some maps.

Sluggo_Monster

REPLY: Well, I have never understood the drift vector on the "1972 FBI Jump Zone Map" ... to the
northeast, out of the southwest. When Snowmman's
and every other wind report I have seen says: from
south-southeast to northwest at 20 kts.

They cant both be correct, so whose is correct?

The closer you get to the Columbia with the DZ
the more it matters especially with money turning
up at Tina Bar.

Somebody's wind data is wrong or the winds were
different from Lake Merwin to Orchards to Vancouver?

1972 FBI Jump Search Map attached -

[snowmman 3]

Short newspaper article attached. I've mentioned Hubbard before.

This is from 1/7/71, Valley Morning Star, in Texas
Hubbard was a bit over the top. But in the article he notes a couple of things I didn't realize before.
He interviewed 20 hijackers. So before pooh-poohing it, remember he was there in '71, and he talked to 20 guys who hijacked.

Note the references to astronaut fantasies, unemployed, , wanting to be pilots. Twelve had taken flying or parachute training. (read the article)

And this article was before hijackers were parachuting. Remember Cooper was the first to actually make a jump.

We've also mused about his interactions with Tina, which Hubbard has opinions about.

I know Ckret and others have said it was just about the money. But I'm a little with Hubbard on this...i.e it was about the drama and the money.

I'm musing, like I said, about Cooper just being a natural progression of all the hijackers that were doing their thing then...

(edit) "neurotically involved in space flight" brings back the weird possible "Dan Cooper" connection..

(edit) another Hubbard quote
"A skyjacker doesn't have to be any smarter than a nine-year-old who knows how to use bluff."
from http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,918419,00.html

[snowmman 3]

Quote

REPLY: Well, I have never understood the drift vector on the "1972 FBI Jump Zone Map" ... to the
northeast, out of the southwest. When Snowmman's
and every other wind report I have seen says: from
south-southeast to northwest at 20 kts.

They cant both be correct, so whose is correct?

In H's Norjak book, he basically states the same theory as sluggo as the wind being wrong for the prediction. He quotes a pilot on an airliner behind 305, who said he was flying into head winds (pilot Bohan said: 80 knot winds at 166 degrees, "right on my nose". He was 4 minutes behind, and 4000 ft above, 305) , and also had detailed degree estimates on crosswinds when landing at PDX.

It's Himmelsbach himself, raising the question that the wind was wrong.

We've never discussed this pilot and airliner behind 305 before.

[snowmman 3]

I had promised to find the better photo of Ingram with the money in 1986 after the court case was resolved, with the two folders I had mentioned and the plastic bag of bills. (leading to my erroneous statement about what the FBI might have)

This picture is from the Norjak book. You can see the two folders. I'm not sure it's best for counting the black bills (the other one I snapped from a video might be better).

But it's more info. (attached)
It's the full picture, I think, that was cropped for the news article that Brian has at his money web site.

[georger 247]

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REPLY: Well, I have never understood the drift vector on the "1972 FBI Jump Zone Map" ... to the
northeast, out of the southwest. When Snowmman's
and every other wind report I have seen says: from
south-southeast to northwest at 20 kts.

They cant both be correct, so whose is correct?

In H's Norjak book, he basically states the same theory as sluggo as the wind being wrong for the prediction. He quotes a pilot on an airliner behind 305, who said he was flying into head winds (pilot Bohan said: 80 knot winds at 166 degrees, "right on my nose". He was 4 minutes behind, and 4000 ft above, 305) , and also had detailed degree estimates on crosswinds when landing at PDX.

It's Himmelsbach himself, raising the question that the wind was wrong.

We've never discussed this pilot and airliner behind 305 before.

REPLY> I think you mentioned this before, briefly.
It was intriguing then and moreso now.

Anything further on this would be appreciated -

Thanks!

[skyjack71 0]

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Confessions are devalued, since we have at least two now, both for apparently no good reason

TWO confessions - who but Duane ever made a confession?

If you are speaking of what Gossett said to the Judge you had better re-read it. He did not admit to being Dan Cooper and since the Judge was well known in the Union picture as is Galen Cook - this might be something you and others are missing.

The wording as given by the Judge - after all of these yrs is supposed to be exactly as Gossett said it - I found it VERY STRANGE that COOK would make Gossett's meeting with the judge coincide just after Duane's nightmare about the prints (which I had explained in DETAIL to COOK). So Cook has Gossett going to a judge a few months later about leaving prints on the plane - but the problem here -what exactly did that judge remember - It behooves me that Gossett would actually say to the Judge - I may have left my prints on the plane.

Use some common sense - if Gossett was indeed worried about that - the last person he would say that to is a JUDGE, but Gossett could have inquired - to the JUDGE about a friend or someone he knew might have been involved, but to say to the JUDGE that HE was afraid HE left HIS PRINTS on the plane is absolute fantasy.

Anyone with a lick of common sense should be able to see thru this - A JUDGE is bound by LAW. What that JUDGE did with that statement is put himself in the position of aiding and abetting if Gossett did indeed say HE was afraid HE left prints on the plane.

If the Son's thought their father was Cooper - WHY did they wait until he died and Galen Cook was looking for a subject? They had a life time to confront their father, but they wait until he dies.

Tonight I was going over some old files and there was an OLD email from Cook - at that time 2004 he was demanding the address of Tina and Mitchell - he was not asking he was demanding...he must really be a hot-shot attorney (tongue in cheek) if he couldn't find either one of them at that time and wanted some little old woman to give it to him.

When Cook contacted me by phone is was always one of the calling card deals - strange thing for an attorney to use and yet, he wants information from me. It took several yrs before I got an actual phone number and I am not sure he gave that to me...I had tracked him down several yrs ago and then again with the aid of someone in this forum I re-affirmed what I knew and found out even more. Infact it was refreshing and enforced my belief even more that Duane was Cooper - I was forced to revisit some old things regarding Duane's past and others.

Just one little thing causes many memories to flood back - sometimes individuals should know when to put up or hold em.

A long time ago maybe in the other thread I mentioned JMWAVE - Snowwman - you know how to find it. I tried to scan a photo tonight, but my scanner is not working or I deleted the hardware so I couldn't do it. Only a few close friends know exactly where my search has taken me - or how far I will go for the truth.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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A long time ago maybe in the other thread I mentioned JMWAVE - Snowwman - you know how to find it. I tried to scan a photo tonight, but my scanner is not working or I deleted the hardware so I couldn't do it. Only a few close friends know exactly where my search has taken me - or how far I will go for the truth.

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Jo,

JMWAVE (sometimes JM/WAVE) is well known in the (US) CBRW community because they thought they were going to get their hands on a Soviet Nuc Weapon. Here’s a blurb:

JM WAVE was the Central Intelligence Agency station in Florida. Located south of Miami in a heavily wooded 1,571-acre tract. The numerous buildings were said to belong to Zenith Technological Enterprises.

After the Bay of Pigs disaster President John F. Kennedy created a committee (SGA) charged with overthrowing Castro's government. The SGA, chaired by Robert F. Kennedy (Attorney General), included John McCone (CIA Director), McGeorge Bundy (National Security Adviser), Alexis Johnson (State Department), Roswell Gilpatric (Defence Department), General Lyman Lemnitzer (Joint Chiefs of Staff) and General Maxwell Taylor. Although not officially members, Dean Rusk (Secretary of State) and Robert S. McNamara (Secretary of Defence) also attending meetings.

At a meeting of this committee at the White House on 4th November, 1961, it was decided to call this covert action program for sabotage and subversion against Cuba, Operation Mongoose. Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy also decided that General Edward Lansdale (Staff Member of the President's Committee on Military Assistance) should be placed in charge of the operation.

The CIA JM WAVE station in Miami served as operational headquarters for Operation Mongoose. The head of the station was Ted Shackley and over the next few months became very involved in the attempt to overthrow Fidel Castro. One of Lansdale's first decisions was to appoint William Harvey as head of Task Force W. Harvey's brief was to organize a broad range of activities that would help to bring down Castro's government.

By the spring of 1962, JM/WAVE employed more than 200 CIA officers. They in turn ran over 2,200 Cuban agents. JM/WAVE had a navy of over 100 craft, including the 174-foot Rex, that had the latest electronic equipment and 40-millimeter and 20-millimeter cannons. The CIA station also had a large number of V-20 Swift craft and access to F-105 Phantoms from nearby Homestead Air Force Base.

William Harvey was ordered to activate an assassination plot against Fidel Castro. This became known as the ZR/RIFLE project. Harvey arranged for David Sanchez Morales to move from Mexico City to join the project based at the JM WAVE station.

In the winter of 1962 Eddie Bayo claimed that two officers in the Red Army based in Cuba wanted to defect to the United States. Bayo added that these men wanted to pass on details about atomic warheads and missiles that were still in Cuba despite the agreement that followed the Cuban Missile Crisis [Emphasis Sluggo's].

Bayo's story was eventually taken up by several members of the anti-Castro community including William Pawley, Gerry P. Hemming, John Martino, Felipe Vidal Santiago and Frank Sturgis. Pawley became convinced that it was vitally important to help get these Soviet officers out of Cuba.

William Pawley contacted Ted Shackley, the head at JM WAVE. Shackley decided to help Pawley organize what became known as Operation Tilt. He also assigned Rip Robertson, a fellow member of the CIA in Miami, to help with the operation. David Sanchez Morales, another CIA agent, also became involved in this attempt to bring out these two Soviet officers.

In June, 1963, a small group, including William Pawley, Eddie Bayo, Rip Robertson, John Martino, and Richard Billings, a journalist working for Life Magazine, secretly arrived in Cuba. They were unsuccessful in their attempts to find these Soviet officers and they were forced to return to Miami. Bayo remained behind and it was rumoured that he had been captured and executed. However, his death was never reported in the Cuban press.

Also, speaking of JM/WAVE, does anyone recognize this man? [see mysteryman.jpg, attached]

Sluggo_Monster

PS: Jo, you amaze me. I don’t know if you are “on base” or not, but it would be great if people would drop their prejudices and at least listen to your story. No wonder all those folks have wanted the book/movie rights. If it isn’t true, it’s a good story. If it is true, it’s a blockbuster! The commutation of sentence is one of your stronger points.

EDIT: Emphasis added to "Zenith Technological Enterprises" to tie to next post.

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Here's something interesting:

Jo, says (assuming she is telling the truth) Duane worked for a company called “Government Employees Benefit Ass.”

Here’s a blurb from their web site:

Government Employees Benefit Ass. insures the CIA, NSA, ONI and other intelligence agencies.

United States Intelligence Community: GEBA is available to active civilian employees and retirees of the United States Intelligence Community and their families. GEBA benefits are also available to military and contractors assigned to NSA-W. Agencies include: Office of the Director of National Intelligence, Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), Federal Bureau of Investigation, Directorate of Intelligence, National Security Branch (FBI), National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA), National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), National Security Agency (NSA), Drug Enforcement Administration, Intelligence Division (DEA), Department of Energy, Office of Intelligence, Department of Homeland Security, Office of Intelligence and Analysis (DHS), Department of State, Bureau of Intelligence and Analysis, Department of Treasury, Office of Intelligence and Analysis, U.S. Air Force/ Intelligence and Air Intelligence Agency, U.S. Army/DCS, G2 & Intelligence & Security Command, U.S. Coast Guard/Intelligence & Criminal Investigations, U.S. Marine Corps/Intelligence & Marine Corp Intelligence Activity, U.S. Navy/Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI)

Sluggo_Monster

PS: See attached excerpt from “Sons and Brothers” [See attached Sons And Brothers1.jpg] {NOTE: Red underline (mine)}

Sons & Brothers: The Days of Jack and Bobby Kennedy
By Richard D. Mahoney
Published by Arcade Publishing, 1999
ISBN 1559704802, 9781559704809
441 pages
Mahoney, former JFK Scholar at the U. of Massachusetts and the Kennedy Library and current teacher at the Thunderbird School of International Management in Phoenix, provides a dual biography of Jack and Bobby Kennedy, describing their relationship and the role their bond played in their accomplishments, blunders and, ultimately, their murders.

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

THIS VIDEO is very disturbing, but I found it while researching the B-727 Aft Airstairs. It gives the best visual (that I have seen) on what it would have been like for Cooper standing on the Airstairs in flight.

Here is a blurb from the New York Times to go with the video:

New York Times
Da Nang's Fall Feared Imminent; U.S. Ships Sent to Help Refugees
By Malcolm Brown , March 30, 1975
...
At the Da Nang airport yesterday, a Boeing 727, against the advice of many pilots, landed in an attempt to evacuate some civilians —to be met by about 300 South Vietnamese soldiers, armed with rifles and grenades, who forced their way aboard the big jet.

Other people, seeking to flee the beleaguered city, lay in front of and under the plane to keep it from leaving. The transport, operated by World Airways, was mobbed by soldiers as it taxied off the runway to the ramp.

At least one soldier was seen firing his pistol at the cockpit. The jet finally took off.

A big part of one wing-flap was damaged when it reached Saigon. The pilots said after reaching here that the damage had been done by a grenade. Aviation authorities, however, said it appeared that the damage was due to an obstacle in the path of the plane's wheels, not to an explosion.

To avoid destruction, the plane took off from the taxiway rather than from the runway. The pilots found the runway jammed with people.

They said they knew of no deaths resulting from this. But aviation experts here said after talking to passengers and stowaways on the plane that between 20 and 30 persons had probably been killed — some run over on take-off, some dropping away from the wheel wells and the cargo hold.

The aviation authorities said the body of one soldier had been found in a wheel well on arrival here; others on the flight said that unknown numbers of others had dropped off the plane in flight.

When the plane arrived in Saigon, the mutinous troops were put under guard.

Except for the World Airways Boeing, no aircraft were reported to have landed at Da Nang yesterday.


I need to watch it again, but I believe at 3:15 they are at 6000 feet altitude and probably close to the speed Flight 305 was going (with a little more weight on the stairs) when Cooper jumped. It shows Ed Daley climbing out onto the stairs.



Here’s another blurb:

At Da Nang, a civilian airlift began, presaging the later confusion and terror at Saigon. Edward J. Daly, president of World Airways, defied US Ambassador Graham A. Martin and dispatched two Boeing 727s to Da Nang, flying on the first one himself. After landing, his airplane was mobbed by thousands of people, some 270 of whom were finally jammed on board. (All but a handful of these were armed soldiers-not the civilians that Daly had intended to evacuate.) The 727 took off amid gunfire and a grenade explosion that damaged the flaps. It hit a fence and a vehicle before staggering into the air. People had crowded into the wheel well, and one man was crushed as the gear came up and jammed.

Somehow the 727 made it back to Saigon, gear down and with split flaps, managing to land safely. The dreadful photos of the dead man's feet hanging from the gear doors told the miserable story. Ironically the one man's death saved four others who had also climbed into the wheel well, for his crushed body had prevented the gear from retracting all the way. Later, when the details of the overweight and damage-laden takeoff were sent to Boeing for analysis, the response was that the 727 should not have been able to fly.


Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

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Also, speaking of JM/WAVE, does anyone recognize this man? [see mysteryman.jpg, attached]

That's weird. He looks like this guy. This photo fell out of the night vision gear manual that was left behind on 305.

[Orange1 0]

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[TWO confessions - who but Duane ever made a confession?
[followed by blah blah blah rant and rave].

Another stunning example of your "objectivity" there Jo...

But about all this fingerprints stuff - Ckret, can you tell us if there ever actually were any fingerprints found on the "aft stairs" that were not able to be matched and are possibly Cooper's?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

Can't be.

Here they are together.

You don't ever see Clark Kent and Superman together do you?

(Or for that matter, I've never seen Janet Reno and Michael Jackson together. Could they be the same person?)
Sluggo_Monster

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[Orange1 0]

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Jo, you amaze me. I don’t know if you are “on base” or not, but it would be great if people would drop their prejudices and at least listen to your story. No wonder all those folks have wanted the book/movie rights. If it isn’t true, it’s a good story. If it is true, it’s a blockbuster!

Sluggo, you weren't around at the beginning of the last thread. Plenty of people were listening to Jo's story... until it became clear that what there was, wasn't so much a "story" as a hodge podge of unverified statements, suppositions, grasping at straws and wild theories (for example: the motive was he thought he was going to die from a kidney disease soon and had nothing to lose, then it was something to do with the the MLK assassination and Bay of Pigs). Through it all remains the fact that the FBI has probably gone further on Duane than it would have without Jo badgering them all the time and STILL hasn't turned up a shred of evidence to support the notion that he was anywhere near the plane that night. Instead we get subjected to the last resort of the conspiracy theorist - that there is no evidence because "THEY" are covering it up! Give me a break!

What you may see as "prejudice" may be rational evaluation other people have arrived at after looking at all the "arguments".

I do agree though, it would make a great movie - and Hollywood's never cared all that much about the truth anyway, has it?!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

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Or for that matter, I've never seen Janet Reno and Michael Jackson together. Could they be the same person?)

They are not the same person. They have a "love child". Any guesses as to who it is? No, its not TAFKA Prince. He is too old.

I am still waiting for Jo to explain why she thinks the FBI and especially Ckret would not want the case solved if it meant verifying that Dan Cooper was Duane Weber. This alleged FBI conspiracy to ignore evidence linking Duane to the hijack is unconvincing to me. I think Ckret would LOVE to solve the case and would pursue any evidence likely to accomplish that end, regardless of who it implicates. It would put him in the investigative hall of fame immediately. Given that the FBI has vigorously pursued cases that implicate fellow FBI agents as criminals, I don't buy it that they would be doing a Cooper coverup.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.