DB Cooper

[georger 247]

Robert99

***

Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground?

Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions.

I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further.

Robert99

Quote

There is nothing in the Palmer or other reports that I could find
that states what the geometry of the Ingram bundles was when
found - it all hinges on Pat and Brian's description after the fact.
Maybe Tom knows something I dont know, or found something
at Seattle?

Fresh bills slide against each other easily and those bands didnt
offer much holding power, and after six months even less holding
power.

• Quote

[georger 247]

Robert99

***

I think R99 would like to see some flow test data!

Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of
nowhere that made Ckret even blush.

I'm sure we both would like to see some real test flow data!

Can your Russian probability modeler handle problems with only non-numeric (alphabetical) data?

Robert99

Quote

what do you mean? what type of alphabetic data?

You mean like the probabiity of occurrence of protein types?
Numbers have to enter the picture somewhere?

[Robert99 50]

377

Robert 99 wrote

Quote

377, If the proposed flight path doesn't satisfy you mentally, it apparently does so emotionally on some level despite your doubts. Can the FBI (or whoever prepared that famous map), TK, Sluggo, and yourself be wrong about the flight path? I doubt if you have yet arrived at the point where you can give an answer to that which you yourself can truly accept.

So if you can't find Cooper in the area where he is supposed to be, then he will be in the area where he is not supposed to be. Of course, this requires some mental adjustments.

What can I take to make the required mental adjustments Robert? What did you take to write the above?

I am OK with the Sluggo flight path and its many subsequent variants and derivatives that differ insignificantly. It's the Tena Bar money that drives me nuts. I can't figure it out. It's an itch I can't scratch.

What's your theory about the money find?

377

I can't remember what I took, but I have now had a nap and it has worn off.

In my opinion, Cooper bounced very close to where the money was found. The fact that three bundles were found together suggests the possibility of them arriving at almost the same time or at very slightly different times.

Either way, that suggests that the money bag was in that immediate area for at least a brief period of time so that such things as water (no problem with the cows here) running off the Fazio's property could move the three money bundles past the tree line toward the river.

Robert99

[GreyCopGC148 0]

Robert99

*********

Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground?

Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions.

I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further.

Robert99

in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A
simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not

The money was not planted.

Robert99

Now I know that you can form an opinion and answer questions. I will always answer your questions and treat you with respect whether we agree or not. That's the most important thing to me. There will be times that I will not know but I'll do my best to find out gc148

DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film

Written by Paul Geivett

[Robert99 50]

georger

******

I think R99 would like to see some flow test data!

Some 'real' flow test data! Not just stories dropped out of
nowhere that made Ckret even blush.

I'm sure we both would like to see some real test flow data!

Can your Russian probability modeler handle problems with only non-numeric (alphabetical) data?

Robert99

Quote

what do you mean? what type of alphabetic data?

You mean like the probabiity of occurrence of protein types?
Numbers have to enter the picture somewhere?

The problem is there are no numbers involved, it is purely alphabetical data that has been massaged at least once and probably more. Some of the massaging is evident and some is not. So there are a number of steps that must still take place to come up with anything useful.

The problem is about one step short of voodoo.

Robert99

[Robert99 50]

GreyCopGC148

************

Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground?

Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions.

I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further.

Robert99

in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A
simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not

The money was not planted.

Robert99

Now I know that you can form an opinion and answer questions. I will always answer your questions and treat you with respect whether we agree or not. That's the most important thing to me. There will be times that I will not know but I'll do my best to find out gc148

Thanks.

[georger 247]

GreyCopGC148

******

Given that fact it seems to me if bills slid or moved relative to each other that would have best occurred earlier in the money's history ... while it was still fresh. Maybe while still in the bag as the result of impact with the ground?

Earlier is better in this case. The money would have to be out of the bag for this to happen in my opinion. And, of course, an early date of arrival at Tena Bar supports Tom Kaye's conclusions.

I consider Georger's Hypothesis to have now been proven and will not question it further.

Robert99

in your opinion, based his study, is it your opinion that the money was planted? or not? A
simple question, remember its only your opinion and it is not to be attacked. You are entitled to have one without me being mean to you. so, yes it was planted, or no it was not

Quote

So far I dont see anything that indicates or 'requires' a plant.

Tom takes an interesting slant with this. He says not brought
there by natural means which I guess includes by water, air,
mud flows, etc. Then he says 'not necessarily plant by human
means, but could be a 'mechanical plant' - and Im not sure what
he has in mind by 'mechanical', because the only mechanical
plant option I am aware of would be the 1974 dredging which I
believe Tom also rejects?

I think the date of delivery and the means of delivery are
probably related. For example, if it could be shown that the
money arrived during a flood period, then it is doubtfull the
money arrived with the dredging or by somebody standing
in water buring it.

There are some tests that might shed light on when the money
arrived (and was buried).

If the money was buried only a few months before Ingram
found it and was elsewhere exposed to the air say between
1971-1979, then there are test which might reveal that fact.

I think the money has to speak for itself independent of any
consideration of the flight path. That was the original goal
and I dont see that that goal has changed. That goal may
be slightly difficult to fulfill, but forensic people are very
creative and motivated.

I think probability is on the side of the money having arrived
on Tina Bar by natural means - its the time and circumstance
that is causing a problem.

• Quote

[Amazon 7]

Robert99

******Just ask Amazon to catch some tuna. They arrive from Japan and feed off the NW coast this time of year. The tuna will have enough Fukushima reactor cesium to serve as isotope tracers. Grind it up and release it. Simple, cheap, no pesky NRC permits or environmental impact statements.

377

Not a bad idea. There have been flow studies, a number related to Vancouver Lake (Snow cited several) but nothing specific to Tina Bar that I could ever find. Maybe I was just too lazy...

When Meyer Louie and I visited that area last month, the Flushing Channel between the river and the lake looked like it could use a good mowing and a lot of brush clearing work. I have never seen any water in that channel.

Robert99

The flushing channel was not there in 1971.... AND only high water would provide "flushing" and August is not high water. Go back again during a warm spell in DEC or JAN after the mountains get lots of snow.. and the warm weather melts off all the lowland snow AND melts the mountain snowpack. Floods down there are fun. Most of my property on Puget Island disappears underwater since it is outside of the dyke that the road is built on.

[georger 247]

Robert99

The flushing channel was not there in 1971.... AND only high water would provide "flushing" and August is not high water. Go back again during a warm spell in DEC or JAN after the mountains get lots of snow.. and the warm weather melts off all the lowland snow AND melts the mountain snowpack. Floods down there are fun. Most of my property on Puget Island disappears underwater since it is outside of the dyke that the road is built on.

Quote

Where do the bulk of things that wind up on Tina Bar come from?

I realise this may be an ignorant question -

• Quote

[377 22]

Robert 99 wrote

Quote

In my opinion, Cooper bounced very close to where the money was found. The fact that three bundles were found together suggests the possibility of them arriving at almost the same time or at very slightly different times.

If he bounced near Tena Bar wouldn't his remains/rig have been discovered? Are you suggesting he splashed in the river?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[GreyCopGC148 0]

If you look on a map you will see the Willamette and Columbia river meet above Fazios. The Oregon side has the faster current and the Wa side slower.
The wind generally blows in ward from the ocean and blows the light floating objects to the Wa side where they collect just below the Fazios cattle farm.
If you look on a map you see it earth google for the best real time view. If you look you may be able to see the road below the cattle farm, were it meets the road. This is were most of everything ends up
-GC148

DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film

Written by Paul Geivett

[testxyz 0]

Quote

The money was not planted.

I watched the 1979 television show "In Search Of" with Leonard Nimoy regarding the D.B. Cooper case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_yvGpipjzE

It's interesting to watch because the money has not been found by Ingram yet and R.H. looks young.

PLUS there is a good view of a Interphone on the same type of 727 that Cooper hijacked.

The Interphone is located right at the exit door in the aft of the plane.

Pictures of Interphone attached.

(series of three pictures approaching the Interphone in the aft)

[sailshaw 0]

Robert99

377 says:

"I am OK with the Sluggo flight path and its many subsequent variants and derivatives that differ insignificantly. It's the Tena Bar money that drives me nuts. I can't figure it out. It's an itch I can't scratch.

What's your theory about the money find?"

I say: "My theory is that the three bundles of 20's found at Tina's Bar were the same three bundles offered to the flight crew and denied. DB could have stuffed the three bundles into the paper bag he brought on-board and then into his shirt because the bag with the loot was tied around his waist. When he jumped, the paper bag with the three bundles could have blown out of his shirt and fell somewhere up stream of Tina's Bar. The paper bag would have kept the bundles together until it disolved with time. That would explain why the bundles were kept together until found."

Just my theory,
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com

[377 22]

Has anyone besides me pondered the social cluenessness in DBC's offering Tina some of the ransom money? Although not a perfect analogy it's like a bank robber handing the teller back some of the loot and saying "here, keep this for yourself. "

Duhhh.

Is there any personality clue here? Just wondering.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[testxyz 0]

Quote

The paper bag would have kept the bundles together until it disolved with time. That would explain why the bundles were kept together until found."

Hmm...Didn't know he offered the stewardess and flight crew? 3 bundles. (what is your source?)

Seems to me it would be logical for Cooper to offer bundle(s) from off the top of the stack inside the Canvas bag. According to Gray the canvas bag was 1 foot by 1 foot and 9 inches high.

Too bad we can't place how the serial numbered bundles were organized within the canvas bag.

It is interesting that 3 bundles? were offered to the Crew (I thought it was offered just to Tina) and 3 bundles were found at Tena bar. Tina Mucklow hint?

I'm not saying the money was planted. But the Coincidences are compelling.

[quade 4]

377

Has anyone besides me pondered the social cluenessness in DBC's offering Tina some of the ransom money? Although not a perfect analogy it's like a bank robber handing the teller back some of the loot and saying "here, keep this for yourself. "

Hard to say if it's "social cluenessness," but we've seen the behavior portrayed in a number of stories. It's almost a cliche of the "good guy" bank robber to do it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[testxyz 0]

Quote

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, and that's okay. Could the elements remove ten bills and leave the rest of the bundle intact? I get the feeling - and I could be wrong - that you lean toward a plant. Who planted it and why?

I don't have an opinion on whether the money was planted or not.

I think more tests need to be done with a Canvas bag and rubberbands inside.

Old Army Tents were made of Canvas and were water resistant. This type of canvas could have helped preserve the money and rubberbands from the elements before the Canvas bag ultimately broke apart (or money fell out) and the three bundles ended up at Tena's bar.

[Robert99 50]

377

Robert 99 wrote

Quote

In my opinion, Cooper bounced very close to where the money was found. The fact that three bundles were found together suggests the possibility of them arriving at almost the same time or at very slightly different times.

If he bounced near Tena Bar wouldn't his remains/rig have been discovered? Are you suggesting he splashed in the river?

377

That would seem logical. I doubt that he went into the river, but I do think he landed very close to the water.

If he did splash, I think the odds are that he and everything with him would have stayed intact and kept going downstream. For the first few minutes in the water, Cooper would probably have had sufficient buoyancy to stay on the water's surface even if dead.

Maybe Cooper came from a short distance upstream to Tena Bar, but it would take quite a while for the money bag to deteriorate to the point that the money could separate in a relatively benign manner as it apparently did.

The construction activities for the Flushing Channel are a big unknown here. Those activities, along with the construction of the marina where Amazon kept her boat, are possible game changers.

But as far as we could tell, Meyer Louie and I didn't get within two or three feet (the approximate limit of our equipment) of the parachute hardware (which is what we were actually looking for) that was with Cooper during our recent visit to Tena Bar.

Robert99

[georger 247]

GreyCopGC148

If you look on a map you will see the Willamette and Columbia river meet above Fazios. The Oregon side has the faster current and the Wa side slower.
The wind generally blows in ward from the ocean and blows the light floating objects to the Wa side where they collect just below the Fazios cattle farm.
If you look on a map you see it earth google for the best real time view. If you look you may be able to see the road below the cattle farm, were it meets the road. This is were most of everything ends up
-GC148

Quote

Wind from the ocean. Interesting.

Fastest water on west side, yes. The channel is on the west
side. The river opens up to a cavity just before Catapillar island
with T-Bar on the north end of that cavity. Flow is south to
north. Pressure is lower in that cavity - things would tend to
collect there. As the north end of that cavity narrows pressure
increases (suction effect) which would tend to pile things up
behind the restriction (which is now at the south end of the
Fazio beachfront. Things are now free to be swept onto the
Fazio property and down the length of the Fazio beachfront,
depending on water level. Its a natural collecting point for things
swept back into the cavity which Catapillar Isle occupies ... and
an area of erosive forces as photos document.

If the water level is high things are going to tend to snag on the
bushes and trees that are at the top edge of the beachfront ...
right below which Ingram says the money bearing sand was
found. Its a natural funneling area with lower erosive forces
compared to at the south end of the Fazio beachfront ... things
that snag and get buried high up on the beach at the north end
would tend to stay there longer vs. at the more open wider
south end. Dredging spoils have always been placed in the south
area vs the north end due to higher erosive forces at the south
end. And coincidently, the north end is where the Ingram bujdles
were buried and found ... the Ingram find was in a particular area
relative to the whole beach front (south to north).

That's one possible scenario. The pressure differential between
the cavity (which contains Catapillar Island with the Fazio
property at the north end) and the broader faster water of the
main channel west of this cavity, is crucial to debris building up
in the cavity, to be brought up onto the Fazio property as
escape pressure increases at the north end of the cavity where
the cavity rejoins the main channel. Low pressure in, high
pressure out, which is exactly at the north end of the Fazio
beachfront.

Look at the map.

Erosion due to high pressure at the north end of this nozzel is
high - you can see the pronounced erosion effects in this area
in photos 1950 - 2000, in spite of efforts to rebuild this area
periodically with dredging sand. (Its a fact of nature and a
resource right on the Faxzio property that helped the Fazios get
into the sand recycling buisiness! Key to their financial success.)

Again, this is one possible scenario ..

• Quote

[georger 247]

377

Has anyone besides me pondered the social cluenessness in DBC's offering Tina some of the ransom money? Although not a perfect analogy it's like a bank robber handing the teller back some of the loot and saying "here, keep this for yourself. "

Duhhh.

Is there any personality clue here? Just wondering.

377

Quote

May indicate he was flustered and insecure about the whole
enterprise he had launched and its outcome. (This well trained
former paratrooper?).

That's a good observation.

• Quote

[georger 247]

testxyz

Quote

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, and that's okay. Could the elements remove ten bills and leave the rest of the bundle intact? I get the feeling - and I could be wrong - that you lean toward a plant. Who planted it and why?

I don't have an opinion on whether the money was planted or not.

I think more tests need to be done with a Canvas bag and rubberbands inside.

Old Army Tents were made of Canvas and were water resistant. This type of canvas could have helped preserve the money and rubberbands from the elements before the Canvas bag ultimately broke apart (or money fell out) and the three bundles ended up at Tena's bar.

Quote

The real problem is 'how does that canvas bag get there in the
first place'! Especially if the flight path is miles away.

• Quote

[georger 247]

Robert99

***Robert 99 wrote

Quote

In my opinion, Cooper bounced very close to where the money was found. The fact that three bundles were found together suggests the possibility of them arriving at almost the same time or at very slightly different times.

If he bounced near Tena Bar wouldn't his remains/rig have been discovered? Are you suggesting he splashed in the river?

377

That would seem logical. I doubt that he went into the river, but I do think he landed very close to the water.

If he did splash, I think the odds are that he and everything with him would have stayed intact and kept going downstream. For the first few minutes in the water, Cooper would probably have had sufficient buoyancy to stay on the water's surface even if dead.

Maybe Cooper came from a short distance upstream to Tena Bar, but it would take quite a while for the money bag to deteriorate to the point that the money could separate in a relatively benign matter as it apparently did.

The construction activities for the Flushing Channel are a big unknown here. Those activities, along with the construction of the marina where Amazon kept her boat, are possible game changers.

But as far as we could tell, Meyer Louie and I didn't get within two or three feet (the approximate limit of our equipment) of the parachute hardware (which is what we were actually looking for) that was with Cooper during our recent visit to Tena Bar.

Robert99

Quote

Did you have a metal detector?

• Quote

[Robert99 50]

georger

Did you have a metal detector?

Yes. Two of them in fact. One of Garrett's most capable detectors (and one of the most expensive) plus a "pinpointer" instrument for restricted spaces.

Robert99

[Robert99 50]

Amazon

The flushing channel was not there in 1971.... AND only high water would provide "flushing" and August is not high water. Go back again during a warm spell in DEC or JAN after the mountains get lots of snow.. and the warm weather melts off all the lowland snow AND melts the mountain snowpack. Floods down there are fun. Most of my property on Puget Island disappears underwater since it is outside of the dyke that the road is built on.

Amazon, Do you know the date that the marina between Caterpillar Island and the Washington Shore was constructed?

The channel in which the marina is located was listed as a "mud flat" on relatively recent US topographical maps. Nevertheless, I have recently seen boats in that marina that probably had 4 or 5 foot drafts.

To me, that suggests that the channel had been dredged and probably in connection with the construction of the marina.

Georger, as I understand his post, is saying that there is/was a "dead water" area just north of Caterpillar Island in the Tena Bar area. This would certainly be true if the marina channel was a mud flat with little water passing through it.

If the channel has been dredged to permit water to flow through it during normal river levels, which are about 5 to 7 feet above sea level, then the "dead water" area that Georger suggests would probably be quite small or maybe even eliminated.

The addition of a relatively fast flowing area of water along the shore of Tena Bar would probably significantly reduce the accumulation of debris on Tena Bar.

It should also be noted that the Columbia River downstream of Portland is not a raging torrent. It descends only about one foot per 15 or 20 miles of river length. In contrast, the Mississippi River between Minneapolis and the Gulf of Mexico descends about one foot per mile of river length.

Robert99

[testxyz 0]

Quote

The real problem is 'how does that canvas bag get there in the
first place'! Especially if the flight path is miles away.

I don't know about the Bag but I did find the following article
interesting.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=QP4yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZYMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6378,3379551&dq=db+cooper&hl=en

I read an old article from the time when the money was found on Feb. 13, 1980. The FBI agent said..

Quote

"They're very small pieces about the size of a nickel," said FBI agent
Tom Nicodemus. He said some of the pieces of money were as deep
as three feet beneath the surface."

"It indicates to us there's been a lot of sand shift there and the money
has been for some time." Nicodemus said.

I guess those pieces three feet below were once attached to the three bundles.

I wonder how far Horizontally away were the little pieces of money from the main bundle stacks

Maybe that is why the FBI dug trenches looking deeper. The trenches
seem to be only dug near the money found.

I wonder if more tiny pieces of bills could still be found.