DB Cooper

[nitrochute 2]

i tried to post a link here ,but it exceeds the limit. go to www.parachutehistory.com and look up super pro harness container.there is a pic of the alligator clip in the last pic near the center of the frame.

[377 22]

All this Cooper rig talk is great, keep it going. It could lead to something useful.

I had never even thought about the belly bands even though I used that kind of gear for many years. I not only kept jumping surplus gear during the PC era, but long after the last PCs were retired and the sky was full of squares... like driving a Ford Model T in a NASCAR race.

Don't underestimate the panic factor that a really hard pull can ignite. You start believing you are pulling on the wrong thing and it can spiral into a fatal situation fast. A 28 ft C9 canopy in a non extended NB 6 would be a hard pull for sure.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

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>>REPLY> What does it mean to 'prime the pins'.
Pull them out slightly to make sure they are lose
and will eject?.<<

REPLY> Nick this is superb and very much appreciated. Two questions -

(1) Could an NB6 false-pull by accident? If the pin gets dislodged and is pulled somehow the chute is lose to deploy ? (even if the pull cord hasnt been pulled)?

(2) You say even with pin primed pull can still
be hard. Can you explain? Remember Cossey said
he thought his 28ft canopy in the NB6 container
was probably a hard pull.

Your information if just fantastic.
George

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[georger 247]

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>>REPLY> What does it mean to 'prime the pins'.
Pull them out slightly to make sure they are lose
and will eject?.<<

REPLY:::

Also if I can, what about the backwash from the
wheels down? Any effect on bailing for Cooper?


Geoger

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[georger 247]

I've also been wondering about how much parachute/skydiving knowledge was available in books/magazines in '71. I'm wondering if Cooper might have had zero jump experience and just read up on things. Did you really have to "know" someone to get jump knowledge back then? I've got a picture of someone doing their first jump off El Cap. (no prior jump of any kind before)...Early '80s (I can scan it if NickD is curious). It looks like a hand deploy. Apparently the story was he got instruction in the parking lot. How would that pucker factor compare to Cooper's?

It's always made me wonder about claims of "a little" prior jump experience with Cooper. I'm wondering why people say that: pucker factor? or some of the actions (like 10k ft request, flaps etc)

[georger 247]

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I think he was a military trooper style jumper who had a handful of jumps spanning a single military hitch and who never did anything but static line jumps.

Hm, that does bring another angle to the paratrooper theory of course, and one that I hadn't thought of - whether or not you are right about the # of jumps, most "normal" paratroopers, even with many jumps, would only have done SL jumps (perfectly logical for 1000' or lower altitudes). I have no idea how many people would have been trained in HALO type jumps by the early 70s??

Nick, I am also interested -in why you think he only had a handful of jumps? Is it fair to say that a paratrooper of age in that era may well have seen a fair amount of combat/"real" jumps as opposed to just training jumps? Do we (by which I mean do you ) have any idea what the average # of jumps someone that saw a tour of duty may have done all in all?

p.s. ... great post about rounds

REPLY> My uncle went in over Belgium with
exactly five jumps and two of those from training
towers (so 3 actual jumps from low alt in a C47).

[snowmman 3]

I had been wondering about something, maybe it applies in this discussion of the chest stuff. I know nothing about this so would appreciate if any answer is "for those with zero knowledge"

attached is a slightly enlarged photo from the fbi of the chest that was left behind. There are white nylon (apparently) lines tied on the side straps.

The 2nd attachment is the same photo from the fbi, not cropped or resized. It shows the pink canopy and pink lines. Did the lines absorb color from the canopy over time? Or did pink lines really exist?

Also: what are the white lines on the chest side straps? Why would cords be attached there, in that method? it seems odd? Did the fbi do this for some reason or ???

Note the white line seems to be cut or frayed also.

(both photos are rotated vertically from the site they were originally taken from..the benefit is that the labelled "top" of the pack, is top of the photo)

(edit) maybe for NickD: Isn't the rip handle also missing from that chest pack? Ckret: was a rip handle found for the chest pack left behind? You guys are listing all the "pieces" that should be there...duh for me I guess it had to come out to get the canopy out..but where did it go?

[georger 247]

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The belly bands not only went through the fabric handles they went behind the elastic pack opening bands (POBs) too.

I didn't think about Cooper having the two belly bands, nice catch, nitrochute . . . and we can also add the POBs (at least 2 per reserve container, some containers had more.) And all of those things are easily removable from their respective containers and a MacGyver type could have a field day with them.

I was always luke warm to Cooper using the suspension lines to tie the money to him, and here's the first good alternative I've heard.

So the next question is how many of those six items were left in the aircraft?

NickD

REPLY> I may be 100% wrong but didnt somebody
(Ckret?) say, Tina actually caught a glimpse of
him tying the money bag around his waste? With
line?

G.

[skyjack71 0]

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On the other hand Mayfield thought the jump community in WA was small enough (and given his
record) he called H to say "its not me!". (which is
funny because his name already appears in the
NWA Transcript as a person of interest).

With Sluggo gone you are mixing fact and myth, Georger. Why don't you talk to Himmelsbach about that. Don't believe everything that is written or posted.

I can assure you Mayfield was not Cooper - go back and read all the prior post from both threads - you will see what I mean. There is no need to repeat all of that. Like CKRET told you - you have a lot of reading to do.

You are beginning to sound very familiar.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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I may be 100% wrong but didnt somebody
(Ckret?) say, Tina actually caught a glimpse of
him tying the money bag around his waste? With
line?

Georger - go back and do your research. You are listening to fiction, She saw little of this - he sent her forward.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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I may be 100% wrong but didnt somebody
(Ckret?) say, Tina actually caught a glimpse of
him tying the money bag around his waste? With
line?

Georger - go back and do your research. You are listening to fiction, She saw little of this - he sent her forward.

Jo, I didn't understand your post here. Could you clarify?
For background: (my bold)
(note specifically that the question of "extra straps from the chest pack" may negate any theorizing Ckret did in the 2nd post below)

on Dec 17, 2007 4:26 PM Ckret posted the following:

startpost---
Cooper's plan was to have the money delivered in a knapsack. When he realized it did not come as requested he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container but could not make it fit. He then decided to use the cords to tie off the top of the money bag, then wrapped the cords several times top to bottom and fashioned some type of handel out of more cord. Tina stated the last time she saw Cooper he was tying cord around his waist.

The money was approximately the size of an average toddler, a point of reference most can visualize.
endpost---

Ckret then did some apparent theorizing?
On July 2, 2008 4:11 AM Ckret posted:

startpost---
I need to get a handle on how Cooper tied off the bag, so I thought I 'd toss out a challenge. We know the bag was a standard bank bag, I think they come in small, med and large, I am assuming he had a large bag.

Because of the money find, the neck of the bag must have been secured independently from the line used to secure the bag to himself. If not, when the bag separated from Cooper the line securing the neck of the bag would have come loose and the money would have spilled out.

So in my mined Cooper used one section of line to wrap around the neck of the bag and tied it off. He used the other section of line to wrap up the bag and form a loop with what was remaining, this according to the witness.

Cooper is now out of line, he only cut two sections I can't remember what I posted but it was either 14'2" and 14'3' or 15'2" and 15'3" (I'll have to find the post to be sure). So according to the witness Cooper had to have clipped the loop into the harness.
---endpost

[georger 247]

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Quote

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I may be 100% wrong but didnt somebody
(Ckret?) say, Tina actually caught a glimpse of
him tying the money bag around his waste? With
line?

Georger - go back and do your research. You are listening to fiction, She saw little of this - he sent her forward.

Jo, I didn't understand your post here. Could you clarify?
For background: (my bold)
(note specifically that the question of "extra straps from the chest pack" may negate any theorizing Ckret did in the 2nd post below)

on Dec 17, 2007 4:26 PM Ckret posted the following:

startpost---
Cooper's plan was to have the money delivered in a knapsack. When he realized it did not come as requested he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container but could not make it fit. He then decided to use the cords to tie off the top of the money bag, then wrapped the cords several times top to bottom and fashioned some type of handel out of more cord. Tina stated the last time she saw Cooper he was tying cord around his waist.

REPLY> There is a God! Thanks. (laughing)

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[nitrochute 2]

the pink canopy was originally white when in military inventory. this one was apparently dyed in in its civilian life(it was a common thing as it would give a jumper a chance to customize his cheapo gear and make it somewhat distinquishable from everyone else's) .i would say that while dye does "bleed" , i feel that the lines were dyed along with the canopy.
those white lines on the chest pack are very interesting.they didnt come from the pink chute,obviously. so the question is, were they there when cossey delivered the chutes??it appears that someone attempted to make a belly band using 550 cord(suspension line). a belly band would pass thru the handle on each end of the pack where that 550 cord is tied .
missing from those pictures IS the ripcord handle.the pocket for which is located at the left side of the container in the picture (barely visible,follow the left edge of the top flap down to just where it overlaps the bottom flap,look just to the left at that point and you will see the partially obscured ripcord pocket ,there is no ripcord in it.
also there is NO belly band.
it appears that the 2 pack opening bands (ie P.O.B.s or bungees)for the top and bottom flaps , are there. cannot see the one for the end flaps,but it may be obscured.

[NickDG 23]

>>There are white nylon (apparently) lines tied on the side straps.
That container is definitely the standard military style troop reserve and what we used when we started skydiving.

The ends of the cut white suspension lines at the sides may have been Copper trying to fab up some kind of carrying bag. Normally those lines would terminate inside the container on the hardware that hooked the reserve to your harness.

That pink canopy (and lines) must have been dyed that color for some reason. But you can say the pink canopy and the reserve container in your two photos were not paired as a set. Was there a white lined canopy left in the plane?

Could the pink canopy have been the dummy reserve? But if it was un-serviceable a rigger would either use a magic marker to mark it so on the canopy's data panel, or cut the lines off it to keep anyone from using it. Going to all the trouble of dying it pink to accomplish that seems like way too much effort.

And it seems a rigger anal enough to do all that wouldn't turn around and hand out that particular container as serviceable by mistake.

The only possible reason for a pink/red military canopy might be if some paratrooper types were doing training jumps into snow. Kind of like using red golf balls in the winter so you can find them. But I've actually never heard of that being done.

But on the other hand most dummy reserves I've seen and used for training purposes had no canopies in them at all. They were filled with something else as all you were using them for was letting students practice pulling the ripcord on the ground. Sometimes that front flap (with the markings) was either painted red, or removed all together. But either way, no one could mistake them for real items as they were so much lighter in weight.

Rigger Cossy actually proved how dangerous it was to use a canopy in a dummy reserve by actually handing it out as a real one. But then again, while it might have been a reserve they used only for training because it was too worn out for regular service - if it was still assembled correctly it probably would have still worked. But it all sounds like sloppy rigging practices. And too sloppy for a Master Rigger like Cossey.

On the ripcord not being in the photo with the container, once pulled they do come completely free of the assembly. And Cooper may have used it for something else. Maybe as a go-between in attaching the belly bands and/or POBs together to make them longer.

Those reserve containers also had POBs on either side (in addtion to the two I marked in the photo below) and I don't see them in the photo either.

Edit to Add - Nitro beat me to most of this while I was writing but I can say I never saw an jumper with a pink cheapo.

NickD

[nitrochute 2]

actually nick i have seen several pink canopies..in fact i have a fuschia 24' reserve that was in use in the 70's(the original owner had a busimess that actually did commercial dying .he also had his main dyed fuschia as well. the ugliest dye jobs came when someone tried to dye an orang and white canopy(never saw a four color dyed , but my guess is that would have been even uglier)..but we are getting off track here.

[nitrochute 2]

also... did these chest parachutes have a pilotchute?if they did there could be bridle missing from each one up to 24'' each or so in length.

[snowmman 3]

wow, thanks. nitro/NickD
you guys have added a lot of new insights/questions to the details of "what the heck did Cooper actually do with all the gear he had"

In the best of all worlds, it would be nice if you could actually handle all the gear.

Is there anything interesting that an additional photo from Ckret might provide?

I'm wondering about how NickD mentioned that the lines would terminate inside the chest container on hardware that hooks to your harness. Does that mean inside the container, we should be able to see little bits of line that were cut? Or does the line just loop thru hardware somehow...so when it's cut, there are no remnants left in the chest container?

Also: what's that vertical metal looking rod on the top left?

To leave no detail unturned (and remember it's clear I have no expertise), is it likely that the missing rip is what would be called a "cloverleaf" style or ???

[377 22]

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actually nick i have seen several pink canopies..in fact i have a fuschia 24' reserve that was in use in the 70's(the original owner had a busimess that actually did commercial dying .he also had his main dyed fuschia as well. the ugliest dye jobs came when someone tried to dye an orang and white canopy(never saw a four color dyed , but my guess is that would have been even uglier)..but we are getting off track here.

We had a few Berkeley hippie tie dyed C 9s at our DZ in the late 60s. One of them must have used an acidic dye, as his main blew up, just completely shredded, on its first terminal deployment.

I saw a few white canopy tie dye jobs that looked OK, but it just didnt work well with anything but white beneath it. I jumped a C9 a few times that was one with alternating gores, orange and white, that had been dipped in yellow dye. It turned the white panels yellow and didnt do much to the orange panels. The owner was trying to make it look "less surplus."

I am beginning to wonder if Cooper might actually have put together a secure way to attach the money to his body. I think there was enough raw materials available to him to do it.

Looking at the big picture once again: if Cooper went in, why wasn't he missed? Anyone who was a likely Cooper who disappeared around the time of the hijacking would have received some scrutiny from friends and relatives if not law enforcement. Maybe he was a total loner, but he probably had a car, a dwelling, social security acct and other things that would trigger an inquiry if he permanently disappeared.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

That pink canopy (and lines) must have been dyed that color for some reason. But you can say the pink canopy and the reserve container in your two photos were not paired as a set. Was there a white lined canopy left in the plane?

REPLY> Do you have any idea what it would be dyed
with? (DyeRite - brand name?)

Do you think Cossey dyed all of his chutes?

Geoger

[georger 247]

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actually nick i have seen several pink canopies..in fact i have a fuschia 24' reserve that was in use in the 70's(the original owner had a busimess that actually did commercial dying .he also had his main dyed fuschia as well. the ugliest dye jobs came when someone tried to dye an orang and white canopy(never saw a four color dyed , but my guess is that would have been even uglier)..but we are getting off track here.

REPLY: I assume Cooper would have seen these chutes were dyed, if he looked into the bag and
knew the dsifference?

Thats a question -

George

[Orange1 0]

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REPLY> My uncle went in over Belgium with
exactly five jumps and two of those from training
towers (so 3 actual jumps from low alt in a C47).

But Belgium presumably would have been WW2? I know an ex-paratrooper with over 50 jumps - 5 training (from planes not towers) and the rest combat (and all of them SL), but it was a different era and a different war. Given the time of the hijacking, Cooper may have been a Vietnam (or Korea) vet and I was wondering more about then - I have no knowledge whatsoever of paratrooper deployment in those wars. I think I recall reading about US paratrooper involvement in something happening in the middle east around that era as well but cannot be 100% certain that memory is right.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[NickDG 23]

>>Also: what's that vertical metal looking rod on the top left?

To leave no detail unturned (and remember it's clear I have no expertise), is it likely that the missing rip is what would be called a "cloverleaf" style or ???
Yes, there should be some remnants of lines on the hardware. It would have been too hard, and of no practical use, to saw the lines off the hardware. Just a few inches away would have been much easier.

And yes these type of handle configurations would be called Cloverleaf.

I looked at that thing in the upper left hand corner of the photo and it could be the cable and pin to the ripcord, but I wasn't sure enough to make note of it.

On the pink canopies what Nitro and other fellow said, and being an old hippie myself, makes sense. (I was just not hippie enough to go the pink route) So I'm on-board with all that. But was the pink canopy from the reserve or the main containers? You'd have to be a real dyed in the wool hippie to make your reserve pink too.

The reserve pilot chute and bridle thing is a good thought, but in 1971 most reserves were still hand deployed so there probably weren't any . . .

NickD

[georger 247]

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>>Also: what's that vertical metal looking rod on the top left?

To leave no detail unturned (and remember it's clear I have no expertise), is it likely that the missing rip is what would be called a "cloverleaf" style or ???
Yes, there should be some remnants of lines on the hardware. It would have been too hard, and of no practical use, to saw the lines off the hardware. Just a few inches away would have been much easier.

And yes these type of handle configurations would be called Cloverleaf.

I looked at that thing in the upper left hand corner of the photo and it could be the cable and pin to the ripcord, but I wasn't sure enough to make note of it.

On the pink canopies what Nitro and other fellow said, and being an old hippie myself, makes sense. (I was just not hippie enough to go the pink route) So I'm on-board with all that. But was the pink canopy from the reserve or the main containers? You'd have to be a real dyed in the wool hippie to make your reserve pink too.

The reserve pilot chute and bridle thing is a good thought, but in 1971 most reserves were still hand deployed so there probably weren't any . . .

NickD

REPLY> I just want to point out the (cut) lines on
right side of the reserve bag are white, not pink.

Cooper left two chutes on the plane. A back pack NB6
unopened (so far as I know), the front reserve pink
currently discussing. It is this front reserve pink
that Cooper cut two lines from. (Ckret even specified the length of the cut sections).

So where do the white line pieces come from on the
reserve bag Cooper left behind? Especially if the
back pack was unopened ... and we dont know what
color the back packs were (white, pink. etc).

Cooper did have a small paper bag with him. Maybe
he had brought his own cord?

However, the dying is interesting, especially since
you say it bleeds. I have passed this on to the money analysis people.

There is one more option we havent touched.

That is the option of Cooper using one of the front
reserve bags to stuff the money bag into, then tying
all of that off somehow. Especially now that the issue
of belly bands comes up. That would have been far
more secure around his waste than simply trying to
tie the money bag alone.

George

[snowmman 3]

I know nothing about fingerprints on objects.

Since the cloverleaf rip handle was metal, it might have held fingerprints? And Cooper would have had to touch it to open the container...this is much more substantial than the little tie clip that has been mentioned for prints before.

Be nice to have a photo of the inside of the chest container. I'm curious about whether there are cut strings there, and if they are pink or white.

(edit) Oh ps...back when georger was asking about hardware that might have caused a speculated rust stain on the bill...the shape seemed to me a reasonable match for a cloverleaf rip handle, but I thought that was stupid since there'd be no reason for it to be in the money bag....but if it was nowhere on the plane..maybe it was in the money bag? just a long shot speculation..very unlikely combination of speculations

[georger 247]

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I know nothing about fingerprints on objects.

Since the cloverleaf rip handle was metal, it might have held fingerprints? And Cooper would have had to touch it to open the container...this is much more substantial than the little tie clip that has been mentioned for prints before.

Be nice to have a photo of the inside of the chest container. I'm curious about whether there are cut strings there, and if they are pink or white.

REPLY> And I am interested to know if Tina saw
him exploring the inside of any pack! If he did then
he knew something about parachutes and was
examining them. That goes directly to his level of experience.

I assume he would have seen pink vs white and known what it meant, as he opened the reserve to
cut lines with Tina there! Did he comment one way
or another? We already know he contemptuously
pulled the packing card(s) out and tossed that on
the floor and Tina questioned him about that and
his reply.

These issues go directly to Cooper's competence
and help us estimate if he knew what he was doing
(had experience) or not, which relates to his survival
chances..