DB Cooper

[airtwardo 7]

skyjack71

PERHAPS SOME OF YOU NEED A REMINDER OF THE RULES AS LAID DOWN BY QUADE AND THE DZ AND WHY THE OLD THREAD WAS SHUT DOWN .


***The situation had simply gotten out of hand.

A number of people, mostly anonymous posters, had essentially "taken over" and felt it was their right to do whatever they felt in that thread no matter how many times I had warned. Further, I had received numerous, shall we say, extremely rude PMs from various people involved in the thread questioning any moderation at all.

Let me just make it perfectly clear that this web site is not a democracy nor is any part of it the property of anyone to do with as they please except the owner and to a limited extent his moderators.

Anyone posting in this site does so at the pleasure of the moderation team and control will be maintained one way or another. People can moderate their own actions or . . . we can do it for them.

If you'd like to continue to chat about DB Cooper, feel free to do so in this thread. If you don't like the rules or moderation, please feel free to go to another web site.

End of discussion.

I dunno Jo...I've been a long time poster on this site & am pretty familiar with both the 'rules' and how the are enforced - a lot of what goes on in this thread though condescending and disturbing, don't really rise to the point of Paul's intervention.

Pulling up an old post by the moderator seems a bit self-serving in this instance.

In truth - Quade seemingly gives a bit more leeway in this thread allowing for more 'open' discussion, frustrating to some as that might be.

I will say though...one sure way to get the thread shut down again is to continually bother the moderator with complaints or demands for increased supervision.

Quade oversees several different sections on the board, without pay and on his own time...I'm sure there is a pretty definite limit as to how much hand holding he's willing to do when it comes to reminding anonymous adults to act like grown-ups.


...in other words, here the squeaky wheel doesn't necessarily get the grease - it's easier 'less maintenance' wise to just throw it away.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Robert99 50]

skyjack71

Over the yrs there was one man who told me that the records where turned over to NWA and as far as he thought they had the only copy. When they were released to the FBI the information had already been redacted by NWA. He knew of no other copy of these transactions. I do not remember all the details of the conversation...and realize I really did NOT know what they meant....but IT was the transactions you guys are speaking of.

Jo, The above is just another product of your fertile imagination.

NWA did NOT have ANY control over the FAA's Air Traffic Control records and transcripts. In case you haven't heard, the FAA is a US Federal Government agency and is not subject to the whims of any airline.

Within a few days of the hijacking, Gerald H. Osterkamp, who was the Chief of the Seattle Air Route Traffic Control Center, prepared COMPLETE transcripts of ALL of the recorded conversations made by the Seattle ARTCC related to the hijacking.

Osterkamp's certification is as follows:

"I hereby certify that the following is a true transcription of the recorded conversation pertaining to the subject incident.

s/Gerald H. Osterkamp
Chief, Seattle ARTCC"

Osterkamp also certified with respect to a copy of the transcription mentioned above:

"I certify that this is a true copy of the original which is on file at this office.

s/Gerald H. Osterkamp
Chief, Seattle Center"

The radio communications between the airliner and the Seattle Center were routinely recorded. The telephone conversations between the controllers were also routinely recorded.

Osterkamp was certifying that COMPLETE transcriptions of both the radio communications and controller phone conversations had been made and were on file in his office.

The "true copy" certification probably applied to the copy that he sent to the FBI. Thus, the redactions would have been made by the FBI and not the FAA or anyone else.

It would be beyond belief that the FBI would destroy the original COMPLETE transcriptions of all the conversations that were of major importance to an ongoing criminal investigation.

DO NOT confuse the Air Traffic Control transcripts to anything related to the ARINC radio and teletype system.

The ATC transcripts have been redacted and obtaining an un-redacted copy of those transcripts will probably determine if any progress is made on resolving the Cooper hijacking.

Basically, any ARINC transcripts (if they even exist) would be of little or no value in resolving the Cooper hijacking.

Robert99

[Amazon 7]

airtwardo

Quote

Dan Cooper died in the jump that night.

The actual proof of that would be...??

Anyone who jumps at night without a static line..... SCARY suicidal stuff there

[skyjack71 0]

Nothing to do with my imagination.

I do not understand the difference between the things you are talking about....but, one thing NWA claimed belonged to them - they took. Be it transcripts or the report or disk that indicates where the plane was at all time. It is GONE.

I have neither the time or the strenght to dig thru my massive files to find the notes of my conversation with Himmelsbach and later with the man at the airport...and then to where the office used to be.

This 'file' for lack of a better word had been requested by NWA. LATER NWA airlines claimed it was their property and not that of the FBI or anyone else.

Purportedly needed for the purpose of insurance NWA had ACQUIRED IT. What ever IT never made it back to the authorities and a copy was never made.

This means it could have been the actual transcript - communication made back and forth between the ground and the crew. YOU do understand I have little knowledge of this field.....This was more than just a report - Why seeing a picture of that roll that was posted makes me feel it was a actual thing that had the information on it.

it was my understanding that yrs later - when someone was cleaning OUT files - this item was destroyed with no one realizing there was NO copy and that it was a pivitol piece of evidence in a 1971 skyjacking.
This loss of information happened at the NWA - office. Whatever it was - was needed for insurance purpose and either never returned or destroyed ay a clerk who did know what it was. Just told to clean out the files.

For some reason I think it was a thing. Why I say it was a "thing" as the FBI allowed them to have it...for the purpose they needed it for which was insurance - it was never given back. EVIDENCE was lost in this case and you are aware of that!

Don't waste you time trying to get a dumb broad to grasp it. THis is one of those SOMETHINGS no amount of description or explanation thru post will help me understand. Seriously - this is useless - as I tried before to explain what I was talking about and no one got it.

It did have something to do with a roll like Blevins showed...that much I feel positive about - but I do not understand what those rolls contained.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Guru312 0]

skyjack71

Just a WARNING - and the REQUEST he NOT talk about me or address me in his postings. This is my last post addressing him & I do so only to defend myself in the event - he goes completely OFF his ROCKER.

Jo, I have a number of comments....

Over the years you and I have corresponded often via PM. I have given you advice regarding a number of issues to include your absurd copyright notice at the bottom of your posts. In fact, I gave you a step by step introduction into how to do it...properly. I suggest that you visit the USPTO website for guidance on how to handle the issue.

You are VERY far off base with this recent rant. Your comment/REQUEST that anyone "NOT talk about you or address you" in postings is patently absurd, meaningless and makes you look stupid.

Your 'preemptive' comments "to defend myself in the event" is totally ridiculous and out of place.

You have neither the power nor the place to request that another poster not address your comments or mention you in postings. I can assure that I will continue to do so when I consider it appropriate. I can also assure you that I will do so in accordance with the rules of OUR "biker bar".

As one of the very few posters on here who is older than you I think you need to step back and consider your purpose and continued participation in this thread. You appear to becoming less lucid and more unable to keep your thoughts and arguments lucid.

Parachuting in one way or another has been a very large part of my life as it is or has been for many posters here. I think you should really step back and consider your purpose...and ours.

When "old timers" such as Airtwardo, Amazon and myself step up to comment on what is going on here you can be assured there are many more silent ones not all pleased with the thread direction.

Step back and then read the post you have written that I'm responding to now.

Hopefully, you will realize that you are out of place and woefully over your head.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[Robert99 50]

skyjack71

I do not understand the difference between the things you are talking about....

Jo, The items of interest are the transcripts of the radio and telephone communications between the airliner and the controllers.

The FAA made a COMPLETE transcript of those conversations. The FAA gave a copy of that COMPLETE transcript to the FBI.

The FBI's copy of that transcript would NEVER have been in the hands of NWA. It is part of the FBI's case file and would be securely protected by them.

NWA did NOT have anything to do with the radio and telephone transcripts mentioned above. Those transcripts were NEVER the property of NWA. They were the property of the US Government and two of its agencies, namely the FAA and the FBI.

The rest of you post is baloney.

Robert99

[georger 244]

Guru312

***Dan Cooper died in the jump that night. ...Jerry Thomas

You whuffos really make me laugh. What "proof" do you have that he died?

The jump would not be difficult nor would it be dangerous. As I've written previously, thousands of jumpers could pull it off.

On the other hand, a non-jumper, as this guy most likely was, would have great difficulty with the money bag and attaching it to himself. Even an experienced jumper would have trouble with tying the bag to his body/harness.

I'm a rigger and I would have had an impossible task tying that money bag to myself without an extra pair of hands to support the bag while tying.

My "proof" that he lost the money bag either on exit or on opening is the presence of the money find.

Occam's razor, folks. Something that you whuffos disregard on a regular basis with your ignorant speculation.

good post...

It's been said before if money (just bundles and bills) had been found under the flightpath 2 mins from the placard, nobody would be questioning what happened.

Minutes later in the hydro basin of the Columbia River, where
natural forces regularly move things around (downstream), now
for some peculiar reason we must introduce *special monads
and argue about it for 40+ years doing 'monadics'!

Human imagination can handle the one but not the other.

[georger 244]

RobertMBlevins

Youreallcrazy says in part:

Quote

'Buying Lyle's rights to the story though, at least in my opinion, did cause some credibility issues. Don't get me wrong though, I believe that your goal was to solve the case and I believe that at least at the time of writing your book you firmly believed KC was your guy. ..'

It's late here, but I will try to answer your post. I paid not a cent for the rights to any of the things Lyle Christiansen provided, or for his story. We have exclusivity on that. I insisted on this arrangement from the beginning, because I thought it lended SOME credibility if the Christiansen family stood not to make a penny on their brother. It was absolutely essential to me and Lyle signed the papers without hesitation. He only wants to know the truth.

Two years ago at the Ariel celebration, I met Kenny's nephew Bruce Christiansen, who had flown out for the event and was pretty low-profile. Most people never even noticed him. We spoke outside for a while.

He told me the whole family is embarrassed by the entire thing, no one wants a cent over it, and the truth was the only thing that mattered to them. They just want to KNOW. Seemed reasonable to me. I had no hard and fast truth to offer Bruce. I told him everything I knew, including Bernie Geestman's lies and pointed him to where Bernie says on Decoded that Kenny could be Cooper. I told him this was a funny thing to say when mulitple witnesses whom I consider reliable have placed him with Kenny the entire week of the hijacking.

There is no way for me to prove that Kenny Christiansen was Cooper. If the Seattle FBI ever bothers to bring in the principles and question them in separate rooms, then they will get to the truth on Kenny quickly I think. Other than that, I don't see a chance of ever discovering whether Kenny was Cooper.

To answer your other question, yes Kenny was gay. It's in the Geoff Gray New York Magazine article. His family realized this from about the time he was sixteen years old. They also worried when he volunteered for the Army and the paratroopers. Back then, if you were outed, it meant at the least a dishonorable discharge, possibly time in Leavenworth. You weren't going to get a job after the war either since a DD in WW2 meant employers would reject you outright back then.

But I have to hand it to Kenny. Not only did he get through that, but he got a job postwar with NWA and served for nearly five years on Schmoo before heading down to Bikini Island to do telephone operator work. The average stay on Shemya was eighteen months. His family believes his early death from cancer might be as a result of exposure to radiation from the A-bomb tests. Later, he comes back to Seattle and trains to be a purser for NWA. But a dozen years later, he's making five hundred before taxes and still living in an apartment in Sumner, WA.

Who knows? I sure don't. Two things are certain, though. Bernie Geestman is a liar, and Kenny had motivation. His letters home show that.

But he has still not been proven to be Cooper.

And not one ounce of proof it is you making all these posts for 4+ years. He still is not Cooper. And you are still not you! I trhink I see a pattern there, in your methods.

[JerryThomas 0]

I'll respond by saying thank you for welcoming me back.One post ask how well I knew Paul G. Fact is I've only talked to him over the phone. I do not agree with his findings. He has made many false statements in reference to this case and what, not only I have said, but also what Brian Ingram has said.He is just like Jo Weber or Blevens in that respect.If it does not come from me personally it is not true.Now for the main reason I posted I recieved a phone call a while back and was informed Jo Weber was bad mouthing me again. The party that called felt I should defend myself.Please don't get me wrong Jo Weber and I have known each other for almost 20yrs although I disagree with her, I've grown to care a lot about her on the personal side. We do have phone coversations often and I am concerned about her health. Now for an update on Ralph H . Ralph was down for a long time. Remember he is now 88yrs old.In the past month he has improved due to surgery on his back he is eating good and walking again.And looks great.Jerry

[georger 244]

JerryThomas

I'll respond by saying thank you for welcoming me back.One post ask how well I knew Paul G. Fact is I've only talked to him over the phone. I do not agree with his findings. He has made many false statements in reference to this case and what, not only I have said, but also what Brian Ingram has said.He is just like Jo Weber or Blevens in that respect.If it does not come from me personally it is not true.Now for the main reason I posted I recieved a phone call a while back and was informed Jo Weber was bad mouthing me again. The party that called felt I should defend myself.Please don't get me wrong Jo Weber and I have known each other for almost 20yrs although I disagree with her, I've grown to care a lot about her on the personal side. We do have phone coversations often and I am concerned about her health. Now for an update on Ralph H . Ralph was down for a long time. Remember he is now 88yrs old.In the past month he has improved due to surgery on his back he is eating good and walking again.And looks great.Jerry

Thanks for the *press release*.

[georger 244]

Robert99

***

I do not understand the difference between the things you are talking about....

Jo, The items of interest are the transcripts of the radio and telephone communications between the airliner and the controllers.

The FAA made a COMPLETE transcript of those conversations. The FAA gave a copy of that COMPLETE transcript to the FBI.

The FBI's copy of that transcript would NEVER have been in the hands of NWA. It is part of the FBI's case file and would be securely protected by them.

NWA did NOT have anything to do with the radio and telephone transcripts mentioned above. Those transcripts were NEVER the property of NWA. They were the property of the US Government and two of its agencies, namely the FAA and the FBI.

The rest of you post is baloney.

Robert99

Your previous post should be bronzed and framed in the
Fourier of this thread, for all to read on entry. Its the kind of
thing students stand in front of and read, and old prophets
stand in front of and ponder ....

... it's basic reading for Cooper graduation.

That's a good thing!

The thing Ive always noticed about Jo's posts is she has more
people calling her (out of the blue) with valuable info, than the
Pres of the US has! It must be pretty confusing and a full time
occupation handling on that "information" ! Would be enough to
keep a staff of five busy.

[mrshutter45 21]

JerryThomas

I'll respond by saying thank you for welcoming me back.One post ask how well I knew Paul G. Fact is I've only talked to him over the phone. I do not agree with his findings. He has made many false statements in reference to this case and what, not only I have said, but also what Brian Ingram has said.He is just like Jo Weber or Blevens in that respect.If it does not come from me personally it is not true.Now for the main reason I posted I recieved a phone call a while back and was informed Jo Weber was bad mouthing me again. The party that called felt I should defend myself.Please don't get me wrong Jo Weber and I have known each other for almost 20yrs although I disagree with her, I've grown to care a lot about her on the personal side. We do have phone coversations often and I am concerned about her health. Now for an update on Ralph H . Ralph was down for a long time. Remember he is now 88yrs old.In the past month he has improved due to surgery on his back he is eating good and walking again.And looks great.Jerry

Thanks Jerry, that's exactly how I thought it would turn out asking that question. I already have him in my BK file

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 244]

mrshutter45

***I'll respond by saying thank you for welcoming me back.One post ask how well I knew Paul G. Fact is I've only talked to him over the phone. I do not agree with his findings. He has made many false statements in reference to this case and what, not only I have said, but also what Brian Ingram has said.He is just like Jo Weber or Blevens in that respect.If it does not come from me personally it is not true.Now for the main reason I posted I recieved a phone call a while back and was informed Jo Weber was bad mouthing me again. The party that called felt I should defend myself.Please don't get me wrong Jo Weber and I have known each other for almost 20yrs although I disagree with her, I've grown to care a lot about her on the personal side. We do have phone coversations often and I am concerned about her health. Now for an update on Ralph H . Ralph was down for a long time. Remember he is now 88yrs old.In the past month he has improved due to surgery on his back he is eating good and walking again.And looks great.Jerry

Thanks Jerry, that's exactly how I thought it would turn asking that question. I already have him in my BK file

... tell him to tell GreyCop to tell Eng and Carr! (and DB Cooper too!).

[JerryThomas 0]

This post in in ref to Guru 312 comment. Cooper was not a rigger or an experienced jumper. Proof is that he had no Idea of how to open the rear stairwell he choose the wrong chutes. He should have realized one chute had been modified and the other was a dumy chute. Now if he had been military he would have realized that a white X means unserviceable . He also would have noticed that the chute had bee sewn together.The one good chute he chose was not user friendly even the deployment mechanism had been changed.So do you realy think Cooper had experience. Come On Man

[JerryThomas 0]

Georger , How the Hell are you my friend. Good to see that your still on top of things.Jerry

[georger 244]

JerryThomas

Georger , How the Hell are you my friend. Good to see that your still on top of things.Jerry

We are in the deep freeze. Its been hell and just now getting out
but its been very disruptive - east coast getting it now. Take care.

[skyjack71 0]

Guru312

***
You have neither the power nor the place to request that another poster not address your comments or mention you in postings. I can assure that I will continue to do so when I consider it appropriate. I can also assure you that I will do so in accordance with the rules of OUR "
When "old timers" such as Airtwardo, Amazon and myself step up to comment on what is going on here you can be assured there are many more silent ones not all pleased with the thread direction.

Step back and then read the post you have written that I'm responding to now.

Hopefully, you will realize that you are out of place and woefully over your head.

I was referring to a poster who has threatened me & has contacted by another name. That is who I requested NOT to address me or engage me.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Guru312 0]

JerryThomas

This post in in ref to Guru 312 comment. Cooper was not a rigger or an experienced jumper. Proof is that he had no Idea of how to open the rear stairwell he choose the wrong chutes. He should have realized one chute had been modified and the other was a dumy chute. Now if he had been military he would have realized that a white X means unserviceable . He also would have noticed that the chute had bee sewn together.The one good chute he chose was not user friendly even the deployment mechanism had been changed.So do you realy think Cooper had experience. Come On Man

You make no sense.

1. I asked for your proof that Cooper died. You offer none. Please enlighten us regarding how you know that he died.

2. How do you know he was not experienced or a rigger? I have my reasons for believing he was neither.

3. How is his inability to open the stairs any indication that he didn't have jump experience? I am an instructor, have almost a thousand jumps and 2500 hours as a commercial pilot and I would have no clue how to open the stairs.

4. What makes you think that if he had military jump experience that he would know the meaning of a white X? I spent 2.5 years in the 82nd Airborne Division and I never saw a parachute with a white X or any other colored X.

5. How could you possibly read my post and come to the conclusion that I think he had jump experience?! I suggest that you read it again.

I don't expect you to address my questions. So why don't you simply explain to the world how you know that he died?

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[georger 244]

Robert99

***

I do not understand the difference between the things you are talking about....

Jo, The items of interest are the transcripts of the radio and telephone communications between the airliner and the controllers.

The FAA made a COMPLETE transcript of those conversations. The FAA gave a copy of that COMPLETE transcript to the FBI.

The FBI's copy of that transcript would NEVER have been in the hands of NWA. It is part of the FBI's case file and would be securely protected by them.

NWA did NOT have anything to do with the radio and telephone transcripts mentioned above. Those transcripts were NEVER the property of NWA. They were the property of the US Government and two of its agencies, namely the FAA and the FBI.

The rest of you post is baloney.

Robert99

The FBI's copy of that transcript would NEVER have been in
the hands of NWA. It is part of the FBI's case file and would be
securely protected by them. - R99

I'm not sure that's true ... ???

[skyjack71 0]

JerryThomas

I'll respond by saying thank you for welcoming me back.One post ask how well I knew Paul G. Fact is I've only talked to him over the phone. I do not agree with his findings. He has made many false statements in reference to this case and what, not only I have said, but also what Brian Ingram has said.He is just like Jo Weber or Blevens in that respect.If it does not come from me personally it is not true.Now for the main reason I posted I recieved a phone call a while back and was informed Jo Weber was bad mouthing me again. The party that called felt I should defend myself.Please don't get me wrong Jo Weber and I have known each other for almost 20yrs although I disagree with her, I've grown to care a lot about her on the personal side. We do have phone coversations often and I am concerned about her health. Now for an update on Ralph H . Ralph was down for a long time. Remember he is now 88yrs old.In the past month he has improved due to surgery on his back he is eating good and walking again.And looks great.Jerry

Jerry I haven't mentioned you in the thread in ages. If I have said anything it was the same thing I have said for yrs - no change there![/:P] If it was outside of the thread - nothing going on there either....not talking to anyone.

Glad Mr. H's surgery worked - when he told me about it - I had never heard of such a thing...but if it relieves the pain - that is a good thing.

See you are up to the usual, but I have NOT been talking about you or to you.

Did start to give you N.Y.'s call but didn't...decided I didn't want the hassle - and that was not how I wanted to greet the new yr as there are enough family problems and I didn't need to go looking for any problems.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JerryThomas 0]

Guru, I will respond to your last post.The point Im making is Cooper could not have deployed the chute safely. His actions showed he had no experience.No suspect has been found.So to ease your mind I'll just say in my opinion he died. Feel better now. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Yes Jo you did call my cell phone on the 31st sorry I missed your call. I did try to call you back but your phone was busy.Guess you were on the forum. Jerry

[Robert99 50]

georger

The FBI's copy of that transcript would NEVER have been in
the hands of NWA. It is part of the FBI's case file and would be
securely protected by them. - R99

I'm not sure that's true ... ???

Which part do you disagree with?

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

The point Im making is Cooper could not have deployed the chute safely.

Kinda rehashing old material...but that's just plain nonsense.

Again - that 'opinion' is based on speculation with absolutely no evidence to support it.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[377 22]

Guru wrote to Jo

Quote

Jo, I have a number of comments....

Over the years you and I have corresponded often via PM. I have given you advice regarding a number of issues to include your absurd copyright notice at the bottom of your posts. In fact, I gave you a step by step introduction into how to do it...properly. I suggest that you visit the USPTO website for guidance on how to handle the issue.

You are VERY far off base with this recent rant. Your comment/REQUEST that anyone "NOT talk about you or address you" in postings is patently absurd, meaningless and makes you look stupid.

Your 'preemptive' comments "to defend myself in the event" is totally ridiculous and out of place.

You have neither the power nor the place to request that another poster not address your comments or mention you in postings. I can assure that I will continue to do so when I consider it appropriate. I can also assure you that I will do so in accordance with the rules of OUR "biker bar"9empasis supplied).

Our Biker bar... never thought of it that way but it fits. Thanks Guru.

Copyright info isnt at the USPTO site, they deal only with patents and TMs. Jo should look at http://www.copyright.gov/ for copyright info.

I've addressed the issue of her legally pointless and defective copyright notice, but she keeps on posting it. No harm done, no utility either.

I just chuckle when Jo tries to direct people on this forum not to respond to or quote or copy her etc.

Jo is a fixture here. She had a long term lease on the building when we jumpers joined and turned it into our biker bar. I'm happy to have her here even though its frustrating at times.

Jo demonstrates a classic case of outcome bias and is a tease, but you gotta love her dogged determination. It is her mission in life to prove that her husband, who would otherwise go down in history as a failed petty thief, was one of the most innovative and daring criminals of all time. She just keeps chugging year after year, no matter how daunting it seems. I sometimes wonder if this mission is what keeps her alive.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.