DB Cooper

[377 22]

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His alleged threat to "do the job" uses language I dont often hear around CA.

377

I think that prior mentions of "gangsta movie english" have muddied our thinking.

Does your thinking change if "do the job" is used this way:

"If he can't do the job, get rid of him and get someone who can"

The way Cooper used "do the job" was slightly unconventional. Maybe he watched too many Edward G Robinson mobster movies. I just thought it might give a clue to where he lived. Some phrases are very localized.

Are we 100% certain that Cooper said "McChord is only 20 minutes away"? If so that sure points away from sport jumper. If I did the crime in 71 (I had been jumping for 3 years at that time) frankly it wouldn't have occured to me to look at an airbase as a chute source. I would have wanted sport gear and that means that I'd expect it to come from a rigger or DZ shop. As a sport jumper there is NO WAY I'd select an unsleeved bailout rig to jump from a jet at high speed. Sport gear is much more maneuverable too. I jumped a four line cut (military steering mod) 26 foot Navy conical reserve. It was not very maneuverable. I would have a far better shot at avoiding water landings and other hazards if I picked a sport rig.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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Are you saying that Americans are Whuffos with respect to the Queen's English?

Back on topic, I wonder if any linguistic analysis has been done on Cooper's choice of words. Trouble is, we don't have an audio record so we don't really know the exact works he used. His alleged threat to "do the job" uses language I dont often hear around CA.

377

Well, where I come from, I don't think my usage of that term would be described as "unusual"...

Linguistic use would also have to take the period context into account. Some of you were around then. It was a time when words like "groovy" were in common use, people were "cats" etc (some old Bowie songs for example date themselves by their lyrics). I don't know if this is relevant to a term like "do the job".

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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Now, what does that fact tell us? If you inspected the equipment brought onboard (and anyone making this jump would) and one piece of it was obviously not functional (to an experienced jumper), that is the first piece you would logically take apart as surplus.

hi ckret. You tend to pick stuff and just say what you want to believe. You can say the opposite interpretation here and it sounds just as good.

If I need a part, I don't try to salvage parts from something I know is broken, since I don't know which part may be broken. I get a desired part from the best device I have, as long as I don't want it.

You're saying "oh it's obvious that even if it's soft it would have the cord Cooper wanted". (edit) We only know the failure mode because of extra knowledge Cooper didn't have without full inspection.


Okay. Sounds like an FBI agent with a little bit of knowledge who's a danger to himself, to me, but whatever.

I'm not supporting either point of view, I'm just amused at how quickly you embrace black and white interpretations.

[377 22]

You know, if I were Cooper and they brought me four chutes, one of which was a dummy chest pack reserve filled with foam, I'd be having some VERY SERIOUS doubts about the condition of the other gear. I would wonder if they were setting me up for a malfunction or worse yet, a chuteless jump. I wonder if he even noticed that the one rig was, in fact, a dummy and far too light for a real reserve.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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Are you saying that Americans are Whuffos with respect to the Queen's English?

Back on topic, I wonder if any linguistic analysis has been done on Cooper's choice of words. Trouble is, we don't have an audio record so we don't really know the exact works he used. His alleged threat to "do the job" uses language I dont often hear around CA.

377

Well, where I come from, I don't think my usage of that term would be described as "unusual"...

Linguistic use would also have to take the period context into account. Some of you were around then. It was a time when words like "groovy" were in common use, people were "cats" etc (some old Bowie songs for example date themselves by their lyrics). I don't know if this is relevant to a term like "do the job".

Hey, I know people who have smoked weed damn near continuously since the 60s. Their vocabulary has not really advanced since their last glimpse of unclouded consciousness. Things are still "groovy" to them. Do you have one or two of these at your DZ?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

Hi back Snowmman

It is such a simple concept, you need functioning equipment to jump from the plane. You need to cannibalize some of the equipment to assist the effort.

-You keep the good

-You part out the bad

Cooper parted out the good and kept the bad.

This leads me to think he was a novice, that’s all I am saying Skippy, not that he was. In fact he may have been the most brilliant skygod ever to grace the face of this sweet earth.

All I am saying is that the facts seem to point away from genius.

And yes there are many facts and the majority of them point away from well a planned expert.

You can throw crap at me all you want Snowmman, your life is not my fault. It's really not going to make you feel better about yourself. I try to answer as many questions as I can and provide what info I have time for.

I start with those who can be respectful and if I have anything left (which I don’t) for those who can't. And make no mistake, that’s not people who agree with me, its people who can communicate effectively one human being to the next.

I have tried to keep things light with you but I see that just isn't going to work so I'll just stop trying.

[snowmman 3]

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I have tried to keep things light with you but I see that just isn't going to work so I'll just stop trying.

got it. Thanks for the sign off.

[377 22]

Ckret,

We are going to chip in and get you a Teflon tshirt to wear over your Kevlar vest. Just try to ignore any perceived hostility. We all benefit from the Ckret-Snowmman dialog, both from a substantive and an entertainment viewpoint. It would be a real shame to see it curtailed. Cool down, pull silver and reconsider. It takes a village to solve this crime. If Johnny Utah can work with Bodhi, you can work with Snowmman.

Hey, did you see the bank robbery we had in Silicon Valley last week? The WF branch mgr orders a truly unreasonably large amt of cash for his branch, an amount so high that it catches the attention of other employees. Guess what? Robbers show up and demand that he open the vault. He complies. They get a few hundred K. Branch mgr is quickly arrested. All three are now in custody. They say they were inspired by the movie Oceans 11. Guess they will be watching a lot of movies in Sheridan, Pleasanton wherever they get sent.

Local police are congratulating themselves on their "great detective work". DUHHHH.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[happythoughts 0]

Perhaps the truth is in the middle.

Novice -
An ex-airborne jumper may have done 10-15 jumps in training.

(disclaimer - No personal military background) I believe that the airborne groups have riggers who pack their rigs for them. So, gear knowledge, in the day, may have been as little as visual gear checks and use.

This would explain the military gear selection over the sport gear. You go with what you know.

Local knowledge -
I have flown to many airports. Didn't know one fact about the area surrounding the airport. DBC flew from Portland to Seattle and knew that McChord was nearby, but also the 20 minute driving time.

If I flew to Seattle, I would not know any of that.

So, a person with local knowledge of the area, and/or military background.

There were a lot of ex-airborne guys coming back from VN in 1971 with military, but not sport experience. Novice level experience. Maybe unemployed, so he didn't miss any work.

That would tie a lot of the loose ends together.

I always wondered if there was a car sitting in the Portland long term parking lot for 6 weeks and never claimed.

[Ckret 0]

I have never seen an intelligent bank robber, I think those are the ones that plan it and then walk away.

[Ckret 0]

Statistically Cooper would have been to old for VN, Korea would be more likely, unless he was an officer.

[happythoughts 0]

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Statistically Cooper would have been to old for VN, Korea would be more likely, unless he was an officer.

True. Forgot about that. The estimated age of 40 would make him a 20-yr guy getting out.

[377 22]

Why would a 20 year guy (or approaching 20 years of service) risk that sweet military pension for a wild risky crime like this? Galen's suspect (Wolfgang) was eccentric enough to have done something like that.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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I have never seen an intelligent bank robber, I think those are the ones that plan it and then walk away.

It's mutual Ckret, they think you are dumb too.

I always got a big chuckle when I was told how dumb the FBI or police were, by a guy sitting behind a thick glass partition and talking to me though a prison visitor center phone.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

I've been posting a lot today. Ckret, have I caught up with Lisamarie?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[happythoughts 0]

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Why would a 20 year guy (or approaching 20 years of service) risk that sweet military pension for a wild risky crime like this? Galen's suspect (Wolfgang) was eccentric enough to have done something like that.

377

Perhaps he had the enlisted pension and wasn't living the good life.

In the 88-89 timeframe, I worked with a software contractor in my group. (He and I made excellent cash back then.)
His wife was a bank manager.

He was a vet who loved risk and he missed the excitement.
He would correct last nights movie with "the correct way to bayonet someone" or "the fastest way to clear a tunnel".

Having quiet conversations with a friend from his Army days.
Or practicing walking down the hall quietly, play-stalking.

The $300 "suitcase" cellphones had just came out.
A woman called from her car and said she saw a guy with a gun and a ski mask get into a car.

With the car tag and description, they picked him up for 9 bank robberies. He didn't need the cash. He just liked the action.
Some people are just that way.

[377 22]

Takes all kinds I guess. This might have been one of Ckrets cases:

Ranger alleges war crimes
Bank-robbery suspect wants to put government on trial

Thursday, December 7, 2006

By PAUL SHUKOVSKY
P-I REPORTER

An Army Ranger accused of holding up a Tacoma bank plans to use the notoriety of his case to reveal what he characterizes as systematic war crimes -- rapes, homicides and political assassinations -- committed by American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Spc. Elliott Sommer is allegedly part of a four-member Ranger crew from Fort Lewis involved in the armed robbery Aug. 7 of a Bank of America branch, court documents show.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Cooper parted out the good and kept the bad.

This leads me to think he was a novice, that’s all I am saying Skippy, not that he was.

All I am saying is that the facts seem to point away from genius.

And yes there are many facts and the majority of them point away from well a planned expert.

I have tried to keep things light with you.

Did Cooper keep the bad, or did he part it out too?? Everyone locks on to the 30' or so of paracord that was cut from the usable reserve, and forgets all the cord and canopy material from the training dummy? According to Sluggo's timetable he had over 30 minutes from the time Tina went forward until the estimated jump time. I could rig up some pretty secure "transport containers" and attach them well enough (or at least think so) in that time.

Would Tina have still been in back with him at takeoff if the stairs were down?? Or would he have sent her forward so his departure would not be known. The facts seem to indicate he planned on jumping very soon after takeoff. Familiarity with Seattle/Tacoma strengthens that assumption. That makes the nb6 a better choice, for reasons I already stated. Would he then have taken the briefcase and overcoat with him? That may not have been his original plan, but once he started to improvise, anything could happen.

I fully agree that Cooper was a novice. Some skydiving experience seems necessary. A total whuffo may come up with the plan, but I'd put good money that he would still have been on the back stairs at Reno. "Watch that first step-its a doozy" takes on a whole new meaning at 10 grand. And at night. There are anecdotal reports of pilots/crew riding a doomed plane into the ground becase they couldn't jump, even facing certain death. McCoy brought his own gear. Maybe Cooper didn't have any. Most students don't until after they get their license. Jumping at night gets points for planning (easier to hide), but tells me less experience. (perspective and obstacle avoidance have been brought up). I have been trying to address these issues as I would plan this, trying to remember how little I knew early on. There are a bunch of threads where new jumpers clearly display how much they think they know, and how little they actually know. Makes it easier to see how Cooper could have planned this.

That doesn't address the question of how desperate or "hardcore" he was. How willing was he to die in order to not get caught? Was his actual jump spot based on trying to be close to Portland/Vancouver, or was it a case of finally building up enough nerve to say "fuck it" and go? Ckret can answer how many bad guys swear up and down that they won't be taken alive, and how many of those actually shoot it out in the end. But on the flip side of that, there is a saying among soliders that while proffesionals are more skilled and trained, they are predictable. Amateurs are more dangerous because they aren't trained and can do the damndest thing at any time. So, was he desperate? Or just stupid?

Last point and I'm done-I'm here for curiosity and entertainment. I try not to take any of the personal stuff too seriously. I'll give the benefit of the doubt that most are meant as lighthearted jokes. I don't particularly enjoy pointless bickering. When someone behaves that way, I tend to ignore their posts. So I would like to respectfully request that we all be nice to each other. I don't want Quade to have to jump in and put anybody in "timeout" again.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[skyjack71 0]

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Back on topic, I wonder if any linguistic analysis has been done on Cooper's choice of words. Trouble is, we don't have an audio record so we don't really know the exact works he used. His alleged threat to "do the job" uses language I dont often hear around CA.

377

I know where you can hear that expression lots and so do you. Prisons and ex-cons talking about "getting the job done"
"do the job" "No, funny stuff".
Also old movies.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Ckret 0]

Good points WRJ,

here is what I 'd say about the dummy reserve. We know Cooper had the money bag wrapped up and tied to himself before Tina went up front, he did so using the cord from the good reserve.

What would be the point then of taking apart the dummy? If he needed more cord he had hundreds of feet available from the one he already cut open. And if he did cut open the dummy and used it in a way not for intended purposes, why throw out those remnants and leave the other?

It would be interesting if Cooper was some mastermind and he walked away from this. There is nothing that really points to that. I'll give it to him, it takes &@$$& to take that first step forward in committing such a high profile crime. It takes planning, experience and luck to pull it off.

As far as the plea "can't we all just get along" I don't think so. There are some that just don't get it. Sitting there on the other end of this communication is a human being. You should conduct yourself as if you’re sitting in front of them. You can disagree all day long, just do it in a reasonable and respectful manner. It could even be a "strong" disagreement, just do it respectfully.

The great thing about those that just can't seem to get it, I don't need them. There are plenty of folks that disagree with me and keep the discussion honest in a respectful manner. No doubt some have put an enormous amount of effort into this thread, to bad they can't communicate effectively. If they had perhaps that effort could have moved into contribution.

[377 22]

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As far as the plea "can't we all just get along" I don't think so.

Too bad. Kinda reminds me of that scene in Independence Day when the scientists are trying to communicate with the alien imprisoned at the govt lab to propose a truce.

Peace? NO PEACE! says the alien through an automatic translator machine.

So be it. I can live with it. So can Snowmman.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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Back on topic, I wonder if any linguistic analysis has been done on Cooper's choice of words. Trouble is, we don't have an audio record so we don't really know the exact works he used. His alleged threat to "do the job" uses language I dont often hear around CA.

377

I know where you can hear that expression lots and so do you. Prisons and ex-cons talking about "getting the job done"
"do the job" "No, funny stuff".
Also old movies.

Jo,

I did hear that kind of talk among prisoners, true. They often referred to their crimes as "jobs". That is a bit different from saying I'll do the job" to mean "I'll trigger the bomb" but I get your point. I still don't think Duane was Cooper, but we can cordially disagree.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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What would be the point then of taking apart the dummy? If he needed more cord he had hundreds of feet available from the one he already cut open. And if he did cut open the dummy and used it in a way not for intended purposes, why throw out those remnants and leave the other?

Not from the FBI records but in a conversation Scott had with some form of media. He stated Cooper stuffing money in the pack - but we could never verifiy that - of course it would be second hand - since he was in the cockpit -maybe something that Tina said to him.

To me being a non jumper and just a woman...if I had a pack I could secure to my body and even without necessary hardware - it had loops I could tie to my harness with pieces of cord. It would give me a place to put part of the money (or all of it then the package I would be transporting in a different manner would be smaller). To my simple mind that is just common sense.

A question: Are all the cords - the ones you know he cut and the one in that dummy pack - could they have been different in size Does anyone know what was in that Dummy pack? Maybe there were NO cords in it - after all that is what he needed - cords to secure his booty.

It seems he cut into the dummy first - and there was NO cord in it - just canopy. Then he had to cut into the other pack for the cord to secure his package.

He has handled that pack or he just throws it out in rage - anger because he knew it was a dummy.

Didn't Tina see him putting something into it? Somewhere this was mentioned.

There is that old saying "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

look at this old post from Ckret:

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Now the choice of the back chute and this is where I am surprised no one caught this. He had two choices, an NB6 with no padding and no sleeve or a fully padded Pioneer sport chute with a sleeve. If you had any knowledge of the challenges you were facing with the jump you were about to make, why would you choose the NB6, you wouldn't.

Who is this "you" in 'you choose' and 'you wouldn't'?

Ckret is saying he wouldnt. Ckret is not Cooper.

All that matters and has ever mattered is what
Cooper did and thought. All of the 'you's' can wait in
line for their turn.

I was wondering last night; of all the parachuting hijackers on record, how many were 40+ and pushing 50, and what percentage younger? Is this
a young person's sport or an old person's dream,
and is there any distinction - statistically?

Judge Judy probably knows.

Georger

[Orange1 0]

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Back on topic, I wonder if any linguistic analysis has been done on Cooper's choice of words. Trouble is, we don't have an audio record so we don't really know the exact works he used. His alleged threat to "do the job" uses language I dont often hear around CA.

377

I know where you can hear that expression lots and so do you. Prisons and ex-cons talking about "getting the job done"
"do the job" "No, funny stuff".
Also old movies.

Not having been around many cons, I'll take your word for it. Of course as you inadvertantly point out - it may have been someone taking his cue from the movies. So now all we need to do is narrow down the search to the population of ex-prisoners in 1971 as well as people who watched crime caper movies and...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.