DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 742]

  On 4/25/2019 at 4:04 PM, mrshutter45 said:

Find info on a Steinthal 60-9707....doesn't make sense. 24' sounds more like a reserve. 

 

If it was there it would have a "physical" label of "F"

why, the 1957 Hayden got back was in evidence but not necessarily on the plane and several other docs ID another chute as the Pioneer found on the plane.

Perhaps the 24' is an error/typo but all the other info doesn't match the chute Hayden rec'd.. the only real conflict is the "24' length" written down by the National Guard.

The reserve found on the plane is clearly ID,d  with different S/N and date etc...

The packing date for the back chute matches Hayden's chute(s).

Edited April 25, 2019 by FLYJACK

[mrshutter45 21]

Perhaps, a lot of it is in error?

[FLYJACK 742]

  On 4/25/2019 at 4:42 PM, mrshutter45 said:

Perhaps, a lot of it is in error?

You have one National Guard statement on one side and many overwhelming FBI docs and Cossey's claims on the other..

If you want to claim perhaps it is all in error and Cossey is a liar then why not expand that to the entire case.. how can we trust any FBI docs..

You have to use reason and logic to sort these things out. Using a minor conflict to discount everything else will get you nowhere.

 

Ultimately, this case is an intellectual puzzle, we actually have very few pieces, some that don't even fit and many being hidden from us. WE need to apply critical thinking to advance it and solve it, we aren't getting any new evidence and the info in the FBI docs has been evaluated by them with no results..

[EJU 3]

Daily DB Cooper Bite. I talk about how the FBI dropped the ball while investigating DBC.

 

[mrshutter45 21]

"Find info on a Steinthal 60-9707"

I'm still waiting on someone to show a photo of the chute mentioned above? 

[dudeman17 342]

  On 4/25/2019 at 7:44 PM, mrshutter45 said:

"Find info on a Steinthal 60-9707"

I'm still waiting on someone to show a photo of the chute mentioned above? 

Here's a thought that may clear up one of the mysteries. Is it possible that that second chute, described as "an integral part of the parachute" is the PILOT CHUTE for that rig? A pilot chute is a small, spring-loaded chute that pops out when you pull the ripcord. It anchors in the air and pulls out the primary parachute. It could be another FBI typo, perhaps it's 24 inches, not 24 feet. Don't know if the manufacturer/part number/serial number is consistent with that, but maybe Joe or 377 can find that out.

[mrshutter45 21]

Cossey claims none of the reserves had pilot chutes. none of the back chutes were opened on the plane. 

serial number 7/60?

I get nothing looking into that model number...

Edited April 25, 2019 by mrshutter45

[FLYJACK 742]

  On 4/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, mrshutter45 said:

Cossey claims none of the reserves had pilot chutes. none of the back chutes were opened on the plane. 

serial number 7/60?

I get nothing looking into that model number...

7/60 is the mfr date, not the serial number..

The way the packing card reads the label is below but it appears above..

Both of these had packing cards.. 2 cards, 2 chutes packed on the same day.. the day Hayden acquired both his chutes.

1. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 26 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO: 226, DATE OF MFR 9/57 (1957) --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)

2. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 24 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO:  260-9707, DATE OF MFR: 7/60 (1960)  --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard in Reno)

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by FLYJACK

[mrshutter45 21]

The one document claims it was a Steinthal...pioneer is another company..

[mrshutter45 21]

It's almost sounds as if they are describing the chute inside the unopened parachute found on the plane. the letters indicate physical evidence. we see two chutes E& F. with notations under the lettered and underlined paragraphs. could the canopy be from Steinthal and they got things mixed up there? they are claiming the "integral part of of the parachute is a 24' made by Steinthal." the second paragraph seems to be in reference to the unopened chute. still could be 26' and documented wrong. 

 

They label the first chute "E" underlining everything. the next paragraph seems to be surrounding it's content.

The second chute is labeled "F" and descriptions given that are also underlined. then the next paragraph states it was found on the plane but was opened and lines cut. they even got that wrong. 5 lines were cut...

 

When looking at the canopy you will see Pioneer on the harness. they might of opened the chute and measured the length and noted the make of the canopy. Hayden's chute was repacked twice before he got it back..

Edited April 26, 2019 by mrshutter45

[mrshutter45 21]

If you read the 302's. the lab states that all the testing on the butts and other pieces of evidence were complete and sent back to Vegas for storage or to discard. it's possible they threw them away..lots of time went by before Carr went looking for them. agents came and went over the years. 

nobody is really sure Cooper threw any chutes out. he didn't need the other back pack so why didn't he toss that? 

the bomb, if fake could of been emptied and tossed. the case would of eroded away years ago. very thin metal frame. 

The handle inside the stairs was for emergency use only. the ground crew opened the stairs from the compartment under the plane when they landed. the box with the handle can be seen in the photo below. the Flight data recorder box is in red. the voice recorder is missing that would of been below the FDR..

The placard reads:

EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLE

      AFT AIRSTAIR

        TO OPERATE

 

OPEN ACCESS DOOR, PULL ON RED

HANDLE.  LOCK WIRE WILL BREAK

WHEN HANDLE IS PULLED

[mrshutter45 21]

I don't have a problem with searching anything. what I'm telling you is the card will land completely away from any other heavy objects thrown out the back. just seconds between tossing anything is a large distance between the two. then not knowing if the location is the same from 1971. factors like these probably stopped the FBI from searching the area. if Cooper tore the placard off in anger he would of tossed it on the stairs, especially if he was right handed. If the card actually drifted for miles the container wouldn't. it's hard to even figure out when and if he tossed the container out. it just wouldn't land near the placard. 

the container has two clips on it that attached to the D rings that were missing. ....think about that for a while. 

If he asked for the chutes and never intended on using them. they should still be there, just like the other chute he discarded. he tore one up and didn't toss that either. what would be the purpose of tossing one out of 3 remaining chutes? if he was as smart as McCoy. he would of tossed them all. leaving nothing behind. 

[dudeman17 342]

  On 4/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, mrshutter45 said:

Cossey claims none of the reserves had pilot chutes. none of the back chutes were opened on the plane. 

 

Front-mount reserves not having pilot chutes would be consistent for that era.

But the only way "E" makes sense is if that second chute described is the pilot chute, but 24 inches, not feet. Could it have been opened later for inspection by the FBI, and that info added to the report? 

Edited April 26, 2019 by dudeman17

[FLYJACK 742]

  On 4/26/2019 at 4:10 AM, RobertMBlevins said:

WolfRiverJoe says in part:

WolfRiverJoe and I are on the same page. It's been a few years, but I got a pretty long interview with Hayden via two separate phone calls. (His business is not far from my little home office.) I can tell you a few things about that. 

First, Hayden never had any chutes modded. He said he 'knew' what color and sizes the canopies were, but he had never looked inside either container, not once, since he bought them. 

Said:  "I bought both of them at the same time..."

Said:  "I think it was 1968, but could have been a little earlier..."

Said: (non-quote) He bought them off-the-shelf used, had Cossey repack them initially, and then a few months prior to the hijacking.

(I didn't know about time limits on repacking back then, i.e. that this must be done on a regular basis, so I didn't ask him how many times total they were repacked. BUT...I got the idea that Hayden had no plans to actually JUMP with one of them...even IF he had gotten into trouble in the air. He was really against that idea, and much more trusted getting a plane on the ground without actually abandoning it in the air. Just saying.)

I'm talking to him on the phone with the Detlor report sitting on the desk in front of me. Hayden doesn't know I'm looking at the report. Not at first. His answers to questions matched the report exactly. The only difference is Hayden said he did not simply 'give' the chutes to NWA. He said they were a rental to them, and they DID send him a check later, but this check didn't come close to covering what the chutes were actually worth. Years later, he got tired of just calling the FBI and asking for his Pioneer back. So...he finally pays a lawyer (I think he said $250) to send a letter to the FBI asking the chute be returned. It WAS returned. He donated it to the WA State History Museum. End of story. 

My opinion is that the Detlor report is accurate, and Hayden is telling the truth. Hayden also added that as far as he knew, none of the Cooper chutes actually BELONGED to Cossey, although he did pack three of them. I think the solution is as simple as it appears. Two chutes sent by Linn Emerick via the WA State Patrol to the airport, from Sky Sports. Two chutes sent by cab by Norman Hayden. Cooper gets them all. Cuts one open, uses another, leaves one behind for the museum later, dummy reserve tossed out the back. Look below one more time and compare FBI agent John Detlor's report, concise, organized, etc to that mish-mash mess submitted by the Reno FBI office....

Same folks who lost the most important piece of evidence in the case...the cigarette butts. Want to do a vote? I'm going with Hayden's testimony and the Detlor report. 

EDIT:  When I read off the report to Hayden at the end of the interview, he was pretty jazzed to be vindicated in his story. He asked if he could have a copy of the report shown above, to frame in his office. So I boosted the image to 300 DPI (The document shown above is actually a RE-TYPE of the original that I did myself to make it easier to present)  I sent him the finished doc by email, which was now suitable for printing. Prior to that, the doc was readable, but a bit raggedy-looking. But you could read every word.) 

That letter states that Hayden supplied two chutes to NorthWest Airlines, it does not state that they both went to Cooper.

That Detlor letter does not conflict with Cooper using one of Cossey's chutes.

 

[mrshutter45 21]

You are missing the point all together. you never even thought of going to the location to see what the location looks like for the purpose of the cards movement over the years. that was the whole reason for the argument several days ago. not searching the area. I don't think Eric is going there to look for evidence. I've stated my reasons why I believe negative results would come with a search. I didn't realize any lines of fairness are involved with two different objectives? 

I believe Eric has expressed no interest in what you are doing several days ago. it's almost demanding from you. he's doing his own thing just as you are. try and accept that for what it is and not for something it isn't. It sounds pretty simple. Eric wants to get in and out of the area. when this whole thing erupted nobody was going to the location at all. it's not a competition. this shouldn't be a big deal. I don't follow why it has to come down to going on your trip? he's not promoting anything. he just wants pictures. he's going to be in the area so again, I don't follow why he should skip the opportunity and go on a trip weeks later? kind of like the mt. Everest thingy you mention. Because he's going to be there? 

I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion enough. 

[EJU 3]

Indeed, my only purpose for going to the placard find spot relates to conducting research. I do not believe there is any evidence to be found there. My plan is to be there no longer than an hour.

A significant part of my overall DB Cooper investigation rests upon my belief that Cooper actually jumped and landed near Tena Bar. With that in mind, I believe the placard find may provide some clarity with respect to the flight path--albeit 41 years after it was found.

Essentially I'm conducting the analysis of the placard find that apparently the FBI didn't conduct. This involves a free-fall analysis of the placard that I asked R99 to conduct. It also involves analyzing the ability of the placard to migrate once on the forest floor. Therefore, I shall visit the spot shortly and begin my analysis.

[FLYJACK 742]

  On 4/26/2019 at 11:08 AM, EJU said:

Indeed, my only purpose for going to the placard find spot relates to conducting research. I do not believe there is any evidence to be found there. My plan is to be there no longer than an hour.

A significant part of my overall DB Cooper investigation rests upon my belief that Cooper actually jumped and landed near Tena Bar. With that in mind, I believe the placard find may provide some clarity with respect to the flight path--albeit 41 years after it was found.

Essentially I'm conducting the analysis of the placard find that apparently the FBI didn't conduct. This involves a free-fall analysis of the placard that I asked R99 to conduct. It also involves analyzing the ability of the placard to migrate once on the forest floor. Therefore, I shall visit the spot shortly and begin my analysis.

What about the wind, nobody knows what the wind was there at that time,, the FBI used Salem and Portland winds and averaged them between 8-9 PM. Using SSW.

They guessed, the winds nearby were ESE around 8 PM shifting to S to SSW.

Without knowing the actual winds at that spot, there is no valid Placard analysis.

[FLYJACK 742]

More on the chutes...

The back chute Hayden got back from the FBI does not match the back chute found on the plane..  it doesn't really match the chute described by the FBI as Hayden's.. 

Bruce Smith wrote,,

https://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/

"However, these documents proclaim Hayden as the owner of the two back chutes delivered to Cooper aboard Flight 305. Norman is also cited as the source of the information on the back parachutes as detailed in these documents, but Norman says that he never spoke to an FBI agent about the chutes. In fact, Norman was dismayed when I read him the FBI’s report.”

"the rig was comparable to what is listed as chute #1 in the FBI “parachute” document.

 Nevertheless, there were some variations.

 First, the container looked old – WWII vintage – even though the manufacturing label said April 1957. Further, I didn’t see any “wear marks,” as suggested in the FBI docs.

 “This is a luxury chute?” Norman sighed when I read the FBI document to him, clearly refuting this aspect of the Bureau’s characterization of the “chute not-taken.”

 Compounding doubts further, the harness material looked fresh, as if it came from a more current rig. Plus, I didn’t see any special padding on them, which the FBI claims should be there. 

 Also, there was a rectangular foam pad, covered in grayish-blue nylon that looked like a little pillow and was located in the middle part of the harness, as if it was padding to make the rig more comfortable for an acrobatic pilot to wear. 

 The container was a Pioneer, type 226, as has been described in FBI reports. 

 I saw no “Steinthal” markings of any kind for the canopy, as FBI Cooper case agent Larry Carr has indicated on the “DropZone.” This begs the question of whether Carr or other FBI agents pulled the canopy out of the Pioneer container to fully inspect the parachute and thus learned it was a Steinthal. This suggests that there are more, yet-to-found FBI files on the parachutes. Or are the FBI documents a mish-mash of data on chutes, agent recollections, and bits and pieces of information from Cossey and Hayden? 

1. Civilian luxury type, tan soft cotton material outside, 26 foot while canopy inside. The parachute inside is a military parachute. The parachute has a foam pad cushion and a fray mark down the rib on the back from rubbing on metal.

 2. A military backpack parachute, standard olive drab green on outside, a 28 foot white canopy on inside. He (Norman Hayden) stated that this parachute also has a foam pad cushion."

 

The back chute found intact on the plane packing card had a S/N 60-9707 for a conical chute. National Guard claimed it was a 1960 Pioneer. The  packing card for the chute Hayden rec'd back has S/N 226 for a 26' Ripstop Conical chute. Both have the same packing date by Cossey of May 21/71. They are two different chutes. Two different packing cards. They must have mixed and matched the 2 Hayden and 2 Cossey chutes losing track of who owned which one.

 

 

 

Cossey described his chutes.. a 26' and 28'.. with the same descent rate.

Edited April 26, 2019 by FLYJACK

[EJU 3]

Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss life in America during the time of the skyjacking.

 

[mrshutter45 21]

You might want to change the photo you have surrounding the search area. you are looking northeast. actually, more to the north. you have the search area west of the flight path...

[mrshutter45 21]

10,000 working in the Seattle and Washington area? this will be the third time I have posted this. the process was already taking place when the 302 was being typed. even though Cooper admitted NWO had nothing to do with the hijacking it didn't stop them from looking into the employee's. according to Cooper again. he went further to explain that 305 was at the right place and time. 

 

Ralph was in charge of Portland and not Seattle which was the main location of the investigation. Seattle had control. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by mrshutter45

[mrshutter45 21]

You can't speak for the FBI on what they did or didn't do. you have been saying they didn't check for years. that's dead wrong. other 302's mention this as well. it's not the only 302 about this. 

[mrshutter45 21]

Think about it Robert. why would they decide against looking into the employee's. that's like not looking into family members after one of them were murdered. they chased leads from people telling them they looked like the sketch but once again fail to look into the airline that was hijacked? 

[mrshutter45 21]

the 302's are not to be taken as exact on what is being written. they are notes of current things surrounding the case. they don't go into detail on a lot of things. there are 3 sets of 302's. each differ slightly. some have more than others. we don't have the full story on anything. 

[mrshutter45 21]

For the time being. you might want to adjust the map you have showing the search area's and which way you believe you are facing on the map. it's wrong. it's not northwest. west is to the left of your photo. you are searching west of the flight path.